c-span is your unfiltered view of government funded by these television companies and more including charter communications. >> charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers and we are just getting started. building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those that needed the most. >> charter communications supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> former congresswoman liz cheney and historian and pulitzer prize-winning biographer jon meacham held a conversation on democracy and how leaders should put principles ahead of politics as part of the washington national cathedral better way speakers series. it's about an hour.

rep. cheney: thank you. john: this is the only case in which liz cheney is to my left. you've got to take them. at low hanging fruit, but it tastes good. the dean told us this was an easter crowd. we're pleased we did not have to go to good thank you all for being here. thank you, congresswoman janie. as the dean so eloquently said, y and you have embodied it in a way that is an inspiration, so thank you. representative cheney: thank you.

john: let's start on january 6, 2021. you get up, you think it will be just another day, how does that work? rep. cheney: it is a wonderful privilege to be here with the dean and the bishop and john who is not only canon historian, but is the voice of our age as an american historian. and so we're very grateful for all that you've done. . john: that is why we are in the trouble we are in right there. rep. cheney: i am grateful that john introduced me to tim mcgraw and faith hill, the coolest

people i've ever met. john: she never said anything nice to me until we introduced her to tim mcgraw and she was like wow, i'm actually cool. rep. cheney: democrats are much cooler than republicans, i have learned. but you know, january 6 itself as you know, and as many of you lived through watching what was happening, it was a day that we never should have lived through and we knew there was indication in the run-up to january 6 obviously, even in real time that there had to be concerned about violence. we know now because of the select committee and

investigation, exactly what the planning was and how extensive it was. and the role donald trump played in managing the entire plan to overturn the election, including what went on on january 6. as we awoke that day, i anticipated we were going to have a debate about the electoral vote. i had plans to speak to explain why it was unconstitutional for congress to object to legitimate electoral votes and while i was writing my speech, in the cloakroom off the floor of the house, my dad called me and he said are you watching president trump's speech? and i was not because i was

working on my remarks. he said the president just said we need to get rid of the liz cheney's of the world. my dad said you are in danger. he made you a target and we need to talk about what that means and whether or not you should proceed with your remarks. we had that conversation and i could hear in my dad's voice both the -- how angry and sad he was as a father, but also how heartbroken he was for our country. we discussed it and it was clear i could not let the threat from the president stop that. he said call me as soon as you are finished. and i did not have a chance to deliver the remarks because by

the time that was supposed to happen, the mob had attacked. and as the mob was banging on the doors and we were getting reports that they were coming closer to the chamber, my feeling was anger, just i could not believe this was happening in our capital. at one point, the capitol police officers who were giving us updates said you need to take cover behind the seats. if the mob it breaks through you have to take cover. my colleague said you cannot take cover. you have to run, it will not be safe. and the other exchange that day

was with jim jordan and -- yeah. so jim and i -- i have to give you the background because the first time i met jim was one of my first days in congress. we were in a meeting and he sat down next to me and said do you want to join the freedom caucus? the freedom caucus is a group of very pro-trump members of congress and i think i took too long to respond because he immediately jumped in to say why he was asking. he said we don't have any women and we need one.

so it was a really tempting offer, but no. john: he is a real smooth talker. mr. smooth. rep. cheney: on the sixth i was standing in the aisle of the chamber and jim, who was more involved than any other member in terms of working with donald trump on the planning for overturning the election, he came over to me as the mob was trying to break through and he said we need to get the ladies off the aisle, let me help you. i swatted his hand away and i will not repeat everything that i said to him, but i made clear i did not need help. it was clear right away, i believed donald trump needed to

be removed from office immediately. it was clear he was a danger to this country. [applause] john: so your family has been a vital part of the american story since the 1960's. so many images of september 11, 2001, your father and mother are part of the iconography. you are associated with the threat to constitutional democracy from an internal enemy as opposed to external. did you think about september 11 that day? rep. cheney: you know, i thought about it very much when i saw

the footage of vice president pence being evacuated down the steps of the capital and that brought to my mind -- there is a picture of my dad on september 11 being evacuated by jimmy scott, who evacuated my dad down the steps of the white house into the bunker. and when i saw the video of mike pence being evacuated, it was a clear realization that when my dad was evacuated was because america was facing the threat from al qaeda and concerns one may be flying into the white house. and when vice president pence was evacuated, it was because of a threat from our own citizens instigated by our own president.

and i remember on the night of 9/11, president bush when he spoke to the nation from the oval office, he said the terrorists can shake the foundations of our biggest building, but they cannot shake the foundations of our democracy. and i believed strongly that the threat we face today is one that does threaten the foundations. and i think that it is important to remember how grave that is. i want to say a couple things. my mom and dad are watching, so i want to say hello to my mom and my dad. and -- bush and her sister,

trisha, are in the audience. i want to say hello to them as well. and sitting close to them, my husband, bill, my daughter, elizabeth, both of whom work on the select committee. very grateful for them. john: we want to talk about what it is like to be married to the margaret thatcher of yellowstone. if we can do that. i worked on that one. rep. cheney: that is not a great mental image. john: you are going to use that in iowa someday. you're going to be saying i am the margaret thatcher of yellowstone. since we're talking about george h w bush, we should stipulate this, i was honored to be his

biographer and at one point in the -- 2011, 2012, he told me one of the things he thought about both liz cheney and your mother is there was a certain inflexibility. which is only herbert walker bush could do, he said you know they are iron, iron. and i went back to president bush, you said this. he said i said it. i will say this, i'm sure george h w bush is watching liz cheney right now with pride and i really am.

[applause] rep. cheney: i do have to tell you, after the book came out, my mother's birthday was after the book came out and we had t-shirts made that have my mother's picture and on the back it says team iron --. i did not know you were allowed to say that word either. john: i think you can raise money off of this. i really do. talk about this, your father was president ford's chief of staff. he was george herbert walker bush's secretary of defense, vice president of the united states. this is not his party. it is not george h w bush's party, it is not george w. bush's party. put on your historian hat. what happened to the republican

party? rep. cheney: that is a big topic. i think several things. i think first of all, there was a really real sense in many parts of our country that there are people who feel their voices are not heard. when i represented wyoming, that was the case. people feel the federal government is making decisions, they don't have a voice and what trump did, it is uncomfortable to say his name in a cathedral. what the former president did was to tap into that, but in a

way that the trays people so that's part of it. and i think it is important to think about people supporting the president. you cannot describe the people, you cannot attribute the same characteristics to all of his supporters. there are some who believe the lie. very many patriotic americans who have had patriotism turned into a weapon. but there are also people, the people who know that he is a threat, they know he is

dishonest and dishonorable, but they've decided to be enablers, collaborators and that describes elected officials in the party and i don't know -- i will give you one example from the last 24 hours. the republican candidate for senate in pennsylvania is a man named dave mccormick who served honorably, who served in the bush administration and trump administration. he knows donald trump is not fit for office.

, donald trump was standing in the hallway and he endorsed mccormick. which, that sort of behavior from someone who knows better creates a structure for people to support the president and i think everyone who has taken an oath, who wants to serve, has to be willing to say this is wrong. it is not about policy. this is a threat to the constitution. but that appeasing still goes on. my last point will be in

pennsylvania, i think close to 27% of republican voters voted for nikki haley and she is not in the race anymore. so at the end of the day, the baggage that the president has is having repercussions. john: if this were about policy, nikki haley would be the republican nominee. rep. cheney: and we would win. john: i leave that to others, but it would be a fascinating race. let me ask you about the partisan mindset. for all of our joking about it, i'm not a democrat or republican.

the gap is narrowing as time goes by. i do not understand the mindset -- it is an honest failure to understand, the mindset of the voter who would cast their vote for a clearly proto-authoritarian man who if mike pence had not done what he did, might have created so much chaos that the most scrutinized presidential election ever,, free and fair, we all know the numbers. did -- they will not vote for biden because of the letter next to his name, he is a democrat.

and i'm thinking not least about bill barr who last week in a moment of wild hyperbole said i have to vote for donald trump because four more years of biden is national suicide. and you listen to the horns of elf land. to me it is beyond the bounds of reason. the point of the james madison contract was to give reason a chance to take a stand against passion. what do you say -- you must get this a lot, to republicans who say he is terrible, but joe biden is going to sink us all. what is your response? rep. cheney: first of all, my response is this is not a policy

election. we can survive -- i have policy disagreements with biden, but we can survive bad policies. we cannot survive a president who is willing to torch the constitution. that is the choice. john: and what do they say back? what did they say back to you? rep. cheney: it is interesting because part of what is happening is partisanship and it is a sense of republicans vote for republicans, democrats vote for democrats and all of us have to do everything we can to pull back from the toxic partisan

political dialogue and it's something that anyone who has been in public life has said things they wish they had not said. one of the things i learned when working on my book was that when speaker pelosi wanted to name me to the select committee, not everyone thought it was the best idea. one member went to her with a list, the top 10 worst things liz cheney has ever said. i have not seen this, i can imagine what was on it. but to her credit she said why

are you bothering me with things that don't matter. we have to save the constitution. jamie raskin who was a fellow member of the committee with me -- jamie and i would joke you really look forward to the days when we can be disagreeing again because it will mean we have righted the ship. in terms of this election cycle, it is so important for us to be thinking about how do we make sure that people understand the danger and the people who are on the fence, if he were to be

elected, we know what he would do. he attempted to seize power. tomorrow the supreme court will hear arguments that the president is immune from prosecution and it's really important for people to stop. we are a nation of laws because our chief executive enforces the rulings of our court. courts cannot enforce rulings. if you have a president unwilling to do that, the system unravels. that is the danger we face. he will not have an office. the people around him before who

stopped some of the most dangerous things. if you look at episodes like the threat of mass resignation, white house counsel office, justice department, when the former president appointed jeff clark to be attorney general and they were try to stop him from proceeding, the threat that stopped him was the threat of mass resignations. if he were in office again he would welcome mass resignation. imagine what he will do with the power. as citizens we have to force ourselves to think about things that normally you would think would never happen. that is the threat that a second trump term poses. john: our friend mike is here,

former senior advisor to president biden. mike has a point that in many ways, we choose to be as polarized as we are. it is not as if -- i will not drag mike into this. it is not an alien invasion. voters get to some extent what we deserve and there is no doubt about what is at stake. the former president has been clear in deed and in word about what would result from this. how do you make the case to those republicans who are reachable by reason, to make a different choice? rep. cheney: first of all, you

know, what we are seeing around the country, both in the primary last night as well as the republican primaries throughout the season, numbers of people -- republicans who will not vote for him. they make it difficult for him, for trump, to win a general election. people do understand on some level. people are frustrated with the choice, but it is clear as we get to the general election that you have a significant number of republicans who will not vote for trump. i think in matters of national security policy, sometimes you hear republicans say i have to be with trump. no president in american history

has ever done what donald trump did in terms of welcoming an enemy, and adversary to invade our allies. that's what he did when he welcomed vladimir putin to invade nato. his threats to withdraw the u.s. from nato, is returned to isolationism and frankly, his ties to vladimir putin and the growing influence in the republican party of vladimir putin, that is another way that this is not the republican party of ronald reagan. those voices in our party have to be willing to stand up and say we are going to do things like vote for assistance to ukraine that recently passed.

[applause] john: are you -- how encouraged are you by that vote? do you believe mike johnson's moment is genuine? do you take comfort from that vote as a sign that a different choice will be made? rep. cheney: it was crucial that the aid package passed and my own experience working with mike johnson was one in which he showed himself willing to do things he knew were wrong. and i wish he had done this sooner. he had the ability to put the package on the floor sooner, but i'm glad that he did it now and i think part of the antidote in

terms of the cult of personality in the republican party and toxicity and partisanship is demanding a return to seriousness. demanding a return to substantive exchanges that are policy-based. i told you before, i keep in my office a picture -- president bush 41, and my father and brent's go croft in the oval office. president bush is holding a report my dad gave him called soviet military power, 1989. it tells you the date, but i keep that picture because it reminds me of serious people.

you can agree, disagree with policy, but getting to a place where you had a majority of republicans saying we will listen to intelligence, read the intelligence, engage on substance about what is right for america in terms of foreign aid, that is the kind of thing we ought to encourage. legislating based on substance and not republic and and democratic corners. there is -- one of the wings of a butterfly that might create a hurricane involves your father. in 1989, this is the only room in america that would remember what i am about to say. that's not good for you, so don't -- it means you need to get out more.

when john cause you a nerd, you know you are in trouble. this is an intermission. john: the nomination of john tower to be secretary of defense collapses in 1989. george h w bush reaches out to a congressman on his way up the leadership ladder in the house named dick cheney. cheney become secretary of defense, which opens a slot on the leadership ladder filled by newt gingrich. and the natives are restless. rep. cheney: but they are not wrong. john: but they are not wrong. so, one of my favorite stories

about how we got where we are is the following. ben weber, a congressman, had run newt gingrich is campaign. george h w bush had been a man of the house until 1970. he asked gingrich and weber to come down to the white house, have a beer, talk things over. and they are sitting there and then can tell that there is something president bush wants to say, but he cannot quite say it. so they are on their way to the elevator and finally weber says mr. president, what worries you most about us? and president bush was relieved to have this opening and he says i worry that sometimes your idealism may get in the way of

what i think of as sound governance. and weber said i have always appreciated that he said idealism. he did not say nuttiness or ideology. he said your idealism. when you look back on that time with pat buchanan who got 40% in new hampshire and talked about a culture war for the country in houston, you see the filaments of this. can you see filaments of an answer to that? you are one of them, but when you look around, you must hear from people. do you believe there is a reformation in the works?

and you are in a cathedral so we approve of reform asian. rep. cheney: i think that it is necessary that there be a reformation, but i do not think of it passively. i think every american has a role to play and certainly those of us who have been in the republican party have a duty because of the danger that is now being presented by the nominee of our party, but i think that it is -- i hope that what people have taken from this terrible lesson of the last three years and people would say before that, but i hope what we have taken from that is how

important individual action is. if you look, republicans will say things to me like our institutions held on january 6, it was not so bad. well, the institutions held because of people. they held because of the capitol police on january 6 who prevented far worse. and they held because of people like rusty bowers, the speaker of the arizona state house, who refused repeatedly the pressure of donald trump to take unconstitutional actions because of mike pence.

they held because individuals in positions that mattered did the right thing. and the lesson for all of us, i'm amazed how many leaders seem to view themselves as bystanders. let's ignore trump and he will go away and we do not have to defeat him. no, we actually have to defeat him and we all have to do that. not just those in elected office. we have to hold elected officials to a higher standard. when i think about the most memorable and consequential experiences in the house, before the select committee, it was times when i was in a debate with someone i did not agree with on whatever the issue was, but they were knowledgeable.

another member or members who knew what they're talking about, understand why they arrived at the view that they had. i hope i could come into the debate as prepared as they were. when you show that respect, that is how you get good policy. you're willing to listen and maybe you change their mind, maybe they change yours. but we have to incentivize elected officials operating our way and disincentivize and those who are conducting themselves like marjorie taylor greene, for example. i like to call her moscow march. but actually, i'm violating my own rule, but i would say it is

important that the people conducting themselves around substance need to be incentivized and we have to be willing to make sure we are voting for the best candidate, but also people need to run for office, put their name on the ballot, make sure we all have good options when we go to vote. john: one of the ways we have come through in american history, thinking about the mccarthy era, lincoln's birthday, 1950, he gives a speech in wheeling, west virginia. it's not until 1954 that he is censured. margaret j smith, one of your approach editorial's, gives a speech called declaration of conscience in the senate. she gets six cosigners,

republicans from maine denounced mccarthyism, only six people agree with her. mccarthy dismissed them as snow white and the six dwarves. as usual, the women were right. it took another four years for the rest of the senate to get there. part of that was mccarthy rose to power in a print and a radio world and tv hurt him actually. when you could see him, he shifted it. one of the things about the 45th president is he has mastered the means of communication that have led or enabled to the toxic climate you're talking about. i am at a loss to figure out

what the mccarthy step would be except that we are the consumers as you are saying. we are the viewers. if we did not like cable news, we would not watch it. so it goes back to human agency and people making fundamentally moral choices. rep. cheney: i'm actually optimistic that the choice will be the right one in november. when the decision is put before the american people, we were talking about this earlier, the majority of the people in this country are not spending day in and day out thinking about politics usually. but when it comes time to choose the president, people need to be

engaged, they will be engaged. i have great confidence that priddy much any audience anyplace in the country if you said do you want your kids to live in an america with a peaceful transfer of power, where that is guaranteed, you know, the vast majority of people will say yes, that is what we want. and common sense, good faith, the extent to which americans want to be reminded that not only are we a great country, but we are a good country. our people are good people. you want your president to be somebody that you are proud for your children to look up to. you know, it is not a partisan

issue. [] applause john: run for office, do not vote for the republican nominee. what else is on your list? rep. cheney: well, tell everyone you know not to vote for the republican nominee. but i think -- commit yourself to remembering how much ultimately our politics really matter. and you cannot sort of think to yourselves -- i'm tempted at times to think this is so messy and a headache and not something you would choose to be involved in.

but we have to remember what an incredible blessing and privilege it is to live in a country where we get to choose and decide what laws govern us. most people in history in most places have not had that freedom. but we have a responsibility to make sure our kids know that and that means the active, be engaged, be involved, it does make a difference, write letters to the editor, to your member of congress, understand they will be accountable and that you are watching. i have people ask me does it really matter if i write to my member of congress and i will tell you it does matter. i will tell you my very favorite piece of constituent mail i ever got was a handwritten note that

said dear liz, never liked you much, but i am starting to. [laughter] that sums it up. >> i that you have gotten a lot of that recently. >> we have some questions from you all. thank you ma'am. thank you. i'm too old to read this, is this shareable? tomorrow the supreme court will hear the case regarding the former president's immunity claim, one of many criminal trials ahead, there is a sin as you were not expecting as an american. do you think any will take place prior to the election and you think the supreme court will

move quickly with its decision? >> i think it is really important that in particular the january 6 trial goes forward, the select committee was able to conduct an investigation that generated a significant amount of information about what had happened, there was an important testimony we were not able to get, members of the white house counsel's office whose claimed executive privilege and felt that they could not share everything that could happen, we know from press reports and testify to the grand jury without claims of executive privilege, members of the president's staff, there is

important testimony that the grand jury has heard that the public has not and and the idea that the january 6 trial would be delayed until after the election, in my view it cannot be the case that a president can attempt to steal an election to seize power and we cannot hold him to account until after the next election. i think that the supreme court may well have wanted to be clear that there are certain areas where a president might enjoy immunity, for example, a commander-in-chief, during a time of war, that may be why they took the case. i think it is crucially important that they rule quickly and decisively and no

circumstance under which a president's action would be protected by immunity exists here. no president can attempt to do what donald trump: did and enjoy immunity for that. and so, i think it is crucial that the court understand. the court, their role is not to be involved in politics, it is important that they not be involved in politics. i think it is important to recognize that not ruling quickly here would mean that the trial does not proceed in the ordinary course. it would mean that potentially, information is critically important, evidence is quickly important, if donald trump or to be reelected, it would remain forever hidden from the american people and that is not right.

i also think it is important for people, you hear sometimes donald trump and others saying and suggesting that the select committee had evident or suppressed evidence. donald trump does not have the evidence. it is obviously not true. it is also important to note that donald trump specifically has himself all of the evidence, even there were a handful of transcripts we had to turn back to the white house to the secret service. which we asked the agencies to review for law enforcement sensitive material and other sensitive issues and then put with the national archives, even those very sensitive transcripts donald trump have had since last year. he has all of the grand jury testimony, he knows exactly what those people closest to him will

say. he knows what they have testify to about his conduct and that is what he does not want the american people to see that evidence. i think it is obvious that there is no question that his assertion of immunity should be rejected. i think very clearly it will be rejected by the court, but also think it is important that they rule in a way that does not allow additional delay. jon: were you surprised given the testimony the committee heard from bill barr with what he said about voting for trump? fmr. rep. cheney: yes. given what bill barr has said publicly about donald trump's lack of fitness for office, i think that his assertion that he is actually going to support donald trump for office is indefensible. and frankly, disappointing to see. he understands how important it is to have a president who will uphold the rule of law and he

has seen firsthand and he has said publicly that donald trump's behavior and conduct and willingness to lie and tell people things he has been told were not true, all of those things, they are a very dangerous and toxic mix. he would have to ask bill barr why he would say what he has said now but i think it is wrong. jon: i would rather ask you. but thank you. can you please elaborate on how your message has been received outside of washington and the rest of the country? what resonates among ordinary voters who may be less open to your view? >> i spend a lot of time traveling around the country and speaking, i have speak -- spoken on a lot of college campuses and i have been really heartened by

the extent to which people are engaged and they are understanding what is at stake and they want to know what they can do to make sure that donald trump does not get anywhere near the oval office again. i think it is interesting, one of the issues that i think is most important is the focus on what he was doing while the attacks was happening. the reason i think that is so important is because someone who would sit and watch that attack on television, who would refuse multiple please by his family and his senior staff to tell them to leave, someone who would be told that the vice president had been evacuated and according

to one report, his response was so what? we know someone handed him a note that said a civilian had been shot at the door to the house chamber. he put the note on the table in front of him and continued to watch the attack happen and would not tell the mob to leave. it is evil. that is a moral issue. i think that it is important to remind people of that. jon: when historians of the future look back at the past eight years, with a view it as a forever changing american moment in time? what do you think? fmr. rep. cheney: i did not understand? jon: do you think that this moment is as epic as we believe it is now? fmr. rep. cheney: i think

certainly it is. i think the -- because we have been so blessed as a nation, because we have for -- since 1789, we have had presidents who abided by their oath of office and we have not had to contemplate this kind of a threat and i think that one of the things that has been fascinating is looking back at what the founding fathers were worried about. they were worried about precisely this. because we have not had to confront it before, in some ways, i think we have taken for granted the freedom we have enjoyed and so, i think that the message and again, it is up to us, we have to make sure that the lesson of this moment when

historians look back will be that we all met at the moment. when we were faced with this threat, we work together to defeat it and we will say to our kids and our grandkids that we prevailed because we love our country more. that has to be our goal and our objective for this period. [applause] jon: thank you, i would like to ask you to close this out with quoting yourself. like the old preacher who said as our lord said, and rightly, this is a speech you gave at the reagan library after january 6hy and the hearings. can you hold and read? fmr. rep. cheney: this is at the

reagan library. this was the day after cassidy hutchinson testified and she had been one of the individuals who showed such tremendous bravery and courage. [applause] this is actually coding myself and giving a speech in my own book -- quoting myself and giving a speech in my own book, it is a little much. jon: i little cell specific. -- a little self specific. fmr. rep. cheney: and embrace the grace and love of country that unites us. let us resolve that we will fight to do what is right and we will be able to look back on these days to say that in our time of testing we did our duty

and we stood for truth. ultimately, that is what our duty as americans require of us, that we love our country more, we love ourselves -- we love her so much and we will protect our constitution and our freedom paid for by the blood of so many. jon: liz cheney. thank you. [applause] >> t. supreme court heard oral argument over whether presidenp is immune from

criminalcution for his alleged role in trying to overturn the 2020 election lts. tonight starting00 eastern, we willss the se and its potential impact. we'll get your reaction before airing the entire oral argument. watch on c-span, our free mobile video app or online at c-span.org. >> don lemon would say that as a man in his prime. >> watched c-span's coverage of the annual white house correspondents dinner live saturday with saturday night live we can update host: just as featured entertainer as well as president biden who is expected to give remarks. her coverage begins at 6:00 eastern, c-span.org and c-span now as journalists and celebrities walk the red carpet into the event. at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, sights and sounds from inside the ballroom before the festivities begin. watch the white house correspondents dinner live

saturday on the c-span networks. >> do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? saturdays, watch american history tv's congss investigates as we explore major investigations in our country's history by the u.s. house and senate. each week, authors and historians will tell the stories. we'll see historic footage and we will examine the impact and he can congressional hearings. this week lawmakers held hearings in teen 73 through 1974 to surround -- to examine events surrounding the 1970 two break-in at democratic national committee headquarters at the watergate complex. the investigation led to the resignation of president nixon. watch congress investigates

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