invi appointed by the bc courts for his personhood. there is at least, i believe, a prima facie argument to say that there is substantial not just what you've written in the report, but it was the demeanor of president biden as you interviewed him. i'll say in conclusion, whether he does or does not meet this definition, i believe your findings raise significant concerns about his current fitness for the office of fitness going forward in the future, and i appreciate the fact that you are brave enough to raise this issue in this report, because you knew this would be significant in your findings. but you did so based on a very significant, very detailed, very thorough independent report, and i praise you for that, that doing your duty and situate. thank you, special counsel. i yield back at■t mr. her, we have looked from the floor, we have a few more

members who will do their, their five minutes of questioning, so we're going to recess, and then we will convene 10 minutes after the conclusion of the last vote. i believe we only have a couple votes, two votes. that will take a while. but we'll get back here soon as we can, and there's, there's, there's food in the, in the, in the back room for, i think we still have some left that you're welcome to. with that, we stand in recess until hur on classified documents. this is live coverage on c- span. >> we have mr. brett from virginia. mr. hur, we now go to the gentleman from maryland for five minutes. >> you, mr. chairman and mr. hur, we appreciate in. one preliminary matter, that is

the release of the transcript. i have heard complaints from my republican colleagues and releasing the transcript from the biden interview this morning. i have to note that i think there are over 90 transcripts that are being held by the majority here in the judiciary committee and the oversight committee for interviews that we all care about they go all go directly to issues with the impeachment inquiry. that is the pot calling the kettle black to be. at that is an understatement. also, when the ranking member requested th the transcripts, determine object did. i hope that we can move forward in the spirit of cooperation and sharing information. mr. hur, thank you again for the woeverything you wrote that that is the

nature of the business. i do want to out this. you started off with, in the first line executive summary we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted in this matter. i take it thatis#d still your position today? >> yes, it is. >> you noted a summarized below we conclude that the evidence does not establish that biden is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. it us believe that? >> i do. >> even though you object to the use of the word exonerated, he has been cleared of criminal charges in the investigation? inal charges are not warranted. >> i do want to go to the issue of material distinction that you raised in your report between president biden and former president trump. we have a document here that lays some of that out. you answer some questions on this already.

it seemed to be highly relevant in your analysis that president de and i want to walk through a couple of those points. one is that he turned in classified documents to the national archives and the department of justice upon request. is that fair? >> that was a factor that we considered. >> he cooperated with your investigation? >> yes. >> he consented to the search of multiple locations including his house? >> yes. >> he set for a voluntary interview? >> yes. >> that was five hours over two days? >> yes. >> he turned over and notebooks he believed to be his personal property? >> correct. >> with respect to the comparison of former president trump and i believe this is on page 11, that is still in your executive summary,i will

just read part of this to you. unlike the evidence from mr. biden the allegations set forth in the indictment of president trump prevent serious aggravating facts. most notably after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, mr. trump did the opposite. he not only refused to return documents but he also -- to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. in contrast, mr. biden turned in information to the department of justice and consented to searches. set for a voluntary interview and cooperated with this. >> i see that language. inspect do you still stand by that? >> i do, sir. >> this is your report. you take full responsibility for everything in the documents? >> i do. i stand by every word.

>> okay. i want to ask you a couple of questions. one is with respect to the surprising one of questions that you got right before we broke about guardianship. it seems to me like a dramatic stretch of anything that was remotely involved in your report. ■y -- did you reason a kind of issues about president biden needing guardianship or anything along those lines? >> nothing like that appeared in my report. >> so, you made the point about him being an elderly man with poor memory but are you saying, did you say anywhere in your report that not only was he -- he would be unfit for public office and to handle his own finances. >> my report did not include yo >> the chairman from virginia is recognize.

>> i would just point out that mr. ivey, he had access to every transcript. he has complete access to that. what we don't have is access to the transcripts of all of the witnesses. we only have mr. den and we don't have access to the audiotapes. >> will the gentleman yield? >> you are speaking during my time. >> thank you, gentleman. thank you for being here. your story is an impressive what and your acevements are impressive as well. you have been a prosecutor for many years? >> yes. >> i was only a prosecutor for a couple of years but i remembermy record >> it would take a while to reconstruct but i think it get there. >> is it above 500?

>> yes. >> i am curious because the evidence that you outlined in your report is pretty significant. when it comes to evidence that after the vice presidency and reading from the report, mr. biden willfully retained documents on afghanistan and on classified documents that he stored at unsecured locations in his home. there is evidence that he willfully retained -- and had a strong motive to keep such classified documents. you outlined what the motive is. can you tell me, what is the motive for keeping the ving day >> one of the moto -- motives is the issue of whether or not a true surge should be sent to afghanistan in 2009 with a hotly contested and debated issue within the obama administration. and one in which, within vice president biden had a significant role and he felt

strongly about. >> president biden, he believed that the search was a mistake in one of the record to show that he was right about afghanistan and his critics were wrong. -- and his judgment was sound when it mattered most. is that right? >> that language sounds familiar. >> that is pretty significant in terms of a motivating factor for retaining documents. wouldn't you say? >> that is a factor that the jury would assess whether or criminal intent. en >> i know that president biden was working with a ghost rider on, correct? >> correct. >> your investigation concluded that one president biden began work on his memoir. at what time did your

investigation conclude? >>+p with respect to the second book in 2017 we identified evidence that he began recorded conversations in 2016 before the end of his vice presidency. >> and while the author -- he went through information nearly 1 >> isn't it true that he led a lot of classified act information regarding the actions of use regarding -- relating to the foreign country. >> i believe that occurred and it was captured in 2017. i believe that was april. >> and, mark zwonitzer was app special counsel? >> yes. >> upon learning of the investigation, mark zwonitzer

deleted digital recordings of his conversations with mr. biden? >> yes. >> you asked about this and he admitted that part of his motive was because he was aware there was an ve >> did this conduct by mark zwonitzer raise suspicions? >> we did. we considered it to be significant evidence to follow- up on. >> are would argue that you had significant evidence surrounding the retention of these documents. the storage of these documents and even though there was a bit reasonable jury could conclude, the intent was there and the tive was there for the book. for exoneration and i would argue that you had enough to move forward. time has expired. i

yield back[÷ >> the gentle lady from dashes recognize. >> thank you special counsel mr. hur for staying. i think it speaks to the possibility and prominence afforded by this nation that you as a child of immigrants sit here as special counsel. and i sit here as a member of congress. there is a lot that has been said today and part of the challenge thati to translate this for i constituents back home. i want to start with sort of a top line. you were tasked with identifying whether criminal conductoc classified documents. and after over one year of investigation, including 150 witness interviews and over 7 million documents reviewed, you wrote in the first sentences of the executive summary, "we conclude that no criminal

charges are warranted in this matter. we would reach the same conclusion even if the department of justice policy did not -- against a sitting president." are those your words? >> yes. >> let's get mr. hur, at any time did the doj leadership or anyone else attempt to influence you . >> no. >> do you believe that you were independent and thorough in your report? >> yes. >> do you think it is true that you received no pressure from attorney general garland? >> that is correct. true that y of the resources that you needed in order to conduct interviews and to conduct your

investigation and complete your report? >> yes. >> is it true that you recommended that the attorney general declined to charge president biden?d a report to t attorney general explaining my decision that criminal charges were not warranted. >> so you said we conclude that the evidence does not establish the guilt of mr. biden beyond reasonable doubt. is it true that you report ultimately concluded that the evidence did not support a finding beyond a reasonable doubt that president biden willfully retained yes. >> is it true that president biden cooperated with your investigation? >> yes. >> is it true that president biden set with you for an interview --. >> he sat for interviews over two days. >> is it true that president biden allowed the fbi to conduct thorough searches of his homea?a+ and his beach hous

>> yes. >> is it true that your report found multiple possible -- as to why the classified documents ended up where they did? >> as part of our analysis we walked through a number of different --. >> as you said on page 6, in addition to the shortage of evidence, ther explanations that we cannot refute. >> i see that language yes. >> the report reads with one exception, there is no record of the department of justice -- for mishandling classified documents from his own the exception is former president trump. am i reading that correctly? >> yes. >> is it correct that your and that would be the case even if he were not a sitting president? >> correct.

>> so, what we have had today is hour after hour after hour of trying to distct us from the clear statements that come through this report. yoyourself have said mu times today that there was no a 10 to obstruct justice by the president, by the department of justice, by the attorney general. you had all of the resources that you needed to conduct a fair and thorough investigation and report and that what you concluded was in fact, the evidence was not sufficient to bring charges against the president for mishandling documents. thank you for being here today. i yield back. >> the gentleman from south carolina is back. >> mr. why did officials

go looking in the first place? >> why did they do it? >> what we identified during investigation is that at a the presidential staff went to the biden center to get a better handle on what kinds of evidence -- what kind of evidence was that the biden center. >> were they looking for documents that were classified? or was it a initial look? >> my understanding is it was a broader initial look and i am looking at chapter 14 of my report about a visit from march 2021 to the biden center. >> in march 2021 -- was this after the justice department began their investigation into president trump? >> i confess, i do not have the

date of the beginning of the investigation at hand. >> i believe it was the same month. >> one thing that i think it is important for people to understand as president biden has this information everywhere. which lotiwas that it at? was it at the transocean office ? was it at the temporary center in chinatown? or was it at location where it sits -- the final location in dc? >> i believe it is described in 257, at the biden center current and permanent location. >> so, classified information was there. is that fair to say? >> the initial transition office and after the vice d the center after office and then his permanent office.

>> then you had the university of delaware library. the university of delaware biden center and then you have multiple places at his home? >> correct. >> the garage, the den, the office upstairs, and the office downstairs. >> correct. >> so that is like nine erent p >> i have lost count. >> i comparison, the democrats want to keep comparing, secret service protection, i don't know that there anywhere else. are they? >> i am not aware of other locations. >> i yield back to the gentleman from south carolina. >> thank you chairman. i know i have two minutes left. mr. hur, how would you define willful ? >> with respect to the intent of willfulness, what a jury has to conclude if somebody knew that their conduct was illegal when the did that. >> so it t accidental or

involuntary? >> correct >> this is where i disagree with your portion of the report. you have a gentleman that serves 36 years in the senate. i have only been here a year information. and the importance he served eight years as vice president. it came to the attention the classified briefing books had not been returned and even if they were returned some of the content was missing. the same year the executive secretary raise that nearly 30 of the classified briefing books from the first several months of 2010 were missing. president biden failed to return compartmented information content from a trip that he took to the hamptons. today you were not able to determine if those documents were recovered? >> correct. >> so, when does willfulness factor in? is it now in his

diminished mental capacity? or when it was he was serving as senator and vice president. , >> in jury would be assessing the mental state of president biden and his intent as to whether or not he had willfulness at the time it was committed. >> i think everyone can see the transgression of this and the difference between then candidate biden and vice president biden and what is happening now. also the chairman talked about this in his comments. there are many reasons to hold these documents. in fact he disclosed some of this information to his post writer. i think there could have been willfulness. it is 2016 and there have been three candidates to run for president. all three have had allegations of issues surrounding the retention and holding of classified documents and, mr.

hur, only one has been charged and that is mr. trump. that is why people think this is a two tiered version of justice. >> the gentleman yields back. the chair recognizes the gentleman from. >> first of all, what i have observed in this hearing is that one side things you're trying to get president trump elected and the other side things you're trying to get president biden elected. i served as çprosecutor for 20 years and i know you will take group from both sides. you must be doing a great job during your report and investigation if you have convinced both sides if that you were in the middle. i commend you for your background and i would have loved to have met chief justice

rehnquist. what a hero to conservatives and americans and that must've been a great opportunity.en both sid my admonition is welcome to congress. i do have a question that goes along the lines of what mr. armstrong was asking you earlier. confused about willful. in your review of willfulness -- willfulness. it cl president biden knew that he had classified documents. he told, after he left the vice presidency, he biographer, his post writer, is classified documents are in the basement. he had the mental state that he had classified documents and he knew that his basement is not a secure area so, at that point

in time, if he said, i have got to call the archives or secret service or somebody to get these documents taken away, perhaps -- but i don't see where the willfulness is missing when he had those. heap is of classified documents and he held them in a nonsecure area and he did so knowingly. he knew he had unsecured documents. whers i certainly agree with you that the evidence in the statement, where the president said his ghost writer found that , that is evidence that any prosecutor would present as significant evidence in a case if this went to trial. reasonable jurors might well infer

formed criminal intent aced on that piece of evidence. what we did in the report was to try to work exhaustively, you need to assess , with a cold i, the strength and the weaknesses of your case. what we tried to do in our report was to walk through potential arguments that would be presented by defense lawyers and to determine how jurors would receive and perceive the evidence including but not limited to evidence relating to the memory gaps of the president that were in various states of cash. >> how do you overcome the recording that he says he has classified documents. classified documents and he says he has those in the basement. what is the defense to that? it is a made up recording? it was in his voice?

everyone was wrong? how do you defend that particular fact. i did a lot of tax cases and you had to determine a pattern of conduct and in this case he had documents in a lot of places. have you overcome those? >> we walk through a number of evidentiary gaps as well as a mbt defense arguments that the president -- that could present at trial. the first is, arguments of the jury that he said, he just sent all of the classified stuff downstairs but then soon thereafter, he forgot about the documents. he convince the jury that he willfully and he knew that it was illegal to keep the documents again. the second argument that we considered is that perhaps these documents never actually were in virginia. perhaps the documents were there by virtue of th

himself having those documents at the delaware home. from the time that he was still vice president all the way through the time of their being discovered. finally, another theory in the report is that there were two theories of classified documents relating to afghanistan in the delaware garage of biden. contained intelligence information and the other it would be a more difficult task to convince a jury a contained that information. perhaps he was refeing to the one folder that did not contain defense information but it would be difficult for -- the one that did contain national defense information. i just laid a lot on you but we do our best to explain that in the report. >> thanyo i yield back. >> at the gentleman yields back. >> thank you. there has been a lot of time.

i ask you a brief indulgence. >> your brief indulgence to ask a question. >> you don't get another round. if someone yields their time, they can. you don't get to go >> i'm not trying to go two rounds. >> your request is on the record. >> all of the democr spoken. >> i ask as was stated on page 1 of the executive summary, "we charges are warranted in this matter and we would reach the same conclusion even a policy did not --."

>> [ overlapping speakers ] >> i ask that this be added to the record that mr. hur stated that biden could not recall when his son died. i asked about this ended indicates that there was no mercy given to mr. biden and no mercy given to him. >> objection. so entered. even though there was not a question, mr. hur, do you want to respond? >> no, sir. >> mr. hur, thank you for ■!you today and we wish the best to you and your family. this concludes today's hearing. submit additional written questions for the witness or additional materials. without objection, the hearing is adjourned. w