>> if you miss c-span's coverage, you can find a anytime online at c-span.org. earings, debates and other events feature markers that guide you to news ready highlights. these points of interest markers appear on the right-ha■2nd sidef your screen and you hit play on select videos. this timeline made it easy to quickly get an idea of what was debated and decided in wascroll through and spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. >> congressman kevin hern is the chair of the republican committee. he joined the hudson institute for a discussion about u.s.-china relations congressmas remarks discussing additional bipartisan legislation surrounding tiktok.

then we will have a conversation about the threat the chinese communist party poses to the

united states and how he is leading in congress to take this complex issue head on in a way that makes some progress. congressman kevin hern represents oklahoma's first district. can i call you kevin for a minute? my mom wilul give me a hard time if i do that. kevin was born on an air force base and gained early appreciation for the sacrifices that military families make. he really has a quintessential american background. he earned an arertificate at a r technology school, she used to work and pay for his engineering degree. after undergrad, kevin went on to work as an aerospace engineer for rock will international. kevin was out of work when it rocked the industry. he saved purchases for his mcdonald's restaurant by

operating small businesses writing computer programs. in 1997 he built a farm and bought his first mcdonald's restaurant in arkansas. he purchased two mcdonald's restaurants. he grew that organization over the next decade mcdonald's restaurants that employed thousands of people in northeastern oklahoma. congressman hearn has worked because every aisle, serving in various leadership positions within the mcdonnell system. he served 13 years in the represented all 3500 plus u.s. franchises. eight years as the -- she will have to tell me because i don't have it here. >> and charge of franchise relations. rebeccah: inas been a successful entrepreneur and banking, manufacturing

development, multiple technology companies in sports publishing. this is so important for our topic today because the congressman really has first-hand experiences in all of these different operate, and the importance of the united states having really strong and sound technology, aerospace, our ability to produce and make our own food on the prosperity of the american people. really has some really interesting and diverse backgrounds. he currently serves on the ways and means committee. he is the chairman of the republican study committee were members of congress agree on basic principles and then work together to collaborate last i checked, there are 173 members of the committee. rep. hern: 180 now. rebeccah: 180 now. it's incredible. it's really important conservative principal group

within the republican covers men house of representative. what -- let's begin with talking about this tiktok because you are cosponsor. something everyone is thinking about. can you tell us about this bipartisan tiktok bill? rep. hern: first of all, thanks for having me. the hudson institute has been around since i was born. it's great what you all have done, really smart people. we have had folks speak to rc as recently as two weeks ago. you came by and talked with us about china. very smart in that space. relates to tiktok, first thing we need to dispel as we are not here to disband tiktok. we are trying to protect america and americans from, sometimes their own selves. as we saw last year when the ceo of bytedance testified to congress, one of the most poignant questions asked of him was, do you allow the same data

gathering where the same te used in china as you do in the united states. his response was sort of stuttering and saying no, then the follow-up question to that is, you have the algorithms in place to turn this off or leave it on. certainly, he did not acknowledge or deny. but we are saying with tiktok is is, china, by statute of congress in 2020, china is one of the five adversarial nations. however you want to call, it is going to use that medium tiktok to collect data with american citizens and company. we will have a part of that and that's what this bill is about. it's a bipartisan bill. i want to give a big shout out to the former speaker. speaker tried to get this tiant -- china task force together in 2019 and speaker pelosi would not do it.

so when he became speaker of the house last year he put this together. it's very bipartisan, led by mike gallagher in the work they are doing is really good. rebeccah:■" just on the facts, tiktok is owned by bytedance, which is then controlled by the ccc. thebytedance to get control from the ccp. it can go any longer as a non-adversary entity controlling [h the app. rep. hern: we are looking at it wednesday percent threshold. they can own to any percent. they lose control of the company at that point in time. you are hearing from bytedance is, their worries is essentially you tiktok out of the nation. if that's what you believe, you must be doing something nefarious with the gather you -- with the data you are gathering. rebeccah: it was passed completely unanimously 50-0. and then the tiktok app used

through its algorithms and have a button there for young people who are using the app to put in their area code and it would give them it against this particular legislation. it really shows how this can be used not just for economic benefit for china. imagine it where china wants to invade taiwan and could really push out information to young people and save the united states destabilizing. it could misinform and calvo -- galvanize support for interests. rep. hern: if you look at what they are doing as far as some of the high-tech they have in the things they are doing to mine data, you look at their unbelievable growth. it came out in 2012. you look at the unbelievable growth that's compared to the domestic companies. we are not here to try to bring parity between the platforms.

but we are saying is,e an adver, and it's just one part of the bill you talk about today, it is a data collection device, one of many that they have in our reports and in our electric vehicles that we are putting forth, we are going to do everything to es of these. rebeccah: it's really an encouraging development to see the bipartisan support for it and really j see tiktok's efforts to lobby against it and it may have backfired and hadn't affected the increase solidified support. really encouraging. i would like to move on to the republican china bill that wasr. kind of surprised how comprehensive it is. rep. hern: 357 pages. rebeccah: it's really interesting. i think not even just for the legislation itself, but as a teaching guide to go through and

see china is trying to harm the united states and what are things you can try to unwind some of it. congressman, i kind of went through it, i did not get all the way through it, but i was trying to understand the approaches. two things came to focus for and that is that it look like it's trying to shore up america's own strength and you could talk about that in technology and advanced tech. trying togo -- grow stronger and innovative, and then it tries to stop what china is doing in its nefarious behaviors. is that fair, those two pillars? >> i think what so -- rep. hern: i think what so different about china versus the hudson institute founded against the ussr, the cold war and■ bringing the principles forward. we looked at that more as a space race or a nuclear arms race then more physical blunt

force troops on the ground. and then we also had spying around. throwing a little spying here and there. today, this is a different . i've often said, in my time as rnc chair, is that china wants to destroy us economically and control us militarily. and they are moving very rapidly to do so. if we think about this, they have only been on the world stage since 2001 when they were brought into the wto. we thought we could democratize china. i'm sure at that time weidea thr economy. their economy is important to the united states and our producers, just as our people are important to their producers. when we look at out downed investments in the united states and we look at the tremendous growth in certain sectors, especially wn it comes to national defense areas, areas of technology, whether it be

aerospace or chip development, all of these things, nuclear proliferation, or even in looking at our genetics in some of the stuff there. look it up. all of these things we had to look at. so what we are focusing on is, first of all, are we doing what we need to do at home. tiktok is one example. we can talk about 80% of the cranes in our ports are chinese developed. we saw cellular modems where they are tracking ships and what's happening our look out s what we're doing to report and have transparency. we have some of our largest investment firms that have funds that are completely focused on china technology. you can invest your money directly in a chinese support for the aerospace programs. when you look at a day in the paper, they document 79 that

they've had around for a few years, six or seven years that they want to basically, in their america from all the technology. other investments in the western world. funding their technology platforms. they are building the steel ip from our greatest technology companies, and then turn around saying we are going to push you out through regulatory action, not choose you as our supplier with big mainframes or our software for our government. ofone of our largest companies n the world are from 50% down to o 5% in five to six years. so they are moving very quickly, stealing rip, and we are finding that through our outbound investments. rebeccah: there was a public debate about how do we use the

term that's like economically assured destruction between the u.s. china, ever since we welcome wpo, republicans and democrats sought -- rep. hern: kw own the w.h.o.. rebeccah: that's a different problem we have to solve. that we enrich china. so now they have had their hand and did their time, and now they are healthy and that's where we sea more aggressive behavior. the challenge is, how do we unwind some of this? you actually not advocating for cond largest economy in the world, $14.14 trillion, so now to make sure we are not continuing to empower the country that is trying to

the united states. >> it's about -- rep. hern: it's about bringing transparency. we talked about this interview and making people aware that we are at an economic war. i don't mean it bad, that's what do, that's what we did as we rose as a nation. we were competing against europe as we grew. we did this because we wanted to create better products. we wanted to treat our people well. we wanted to have good human rights. and everything that i just mentioned, china is a bad example of all of us. we need to expose them. what this bill does is bring all of the topics together. out is members of leadership legislative, creators, bring this together to point out that when bring all this together, i'm sure we will talk about the border, belton road, education, all of these together

, when you bake that cake, it doesn't look very good. rebeccah: i think it's really important that the republicans of the committee are tracking this concept that china is really a key part of how china things about technolog civil military fusion. that's why your bill goes in these different sectors. commercial or inter-commercial purposes. it's directly applicable to the military. that distinction between private and civil versus military is not there. rep. hern: i think it's important for people to understand what that means. in the united states we have a complete delineation that our commander-in-chief is a civilian. we have a delineation that our military is our military. we develop pro use. china is different. they are one in the same. any time they develop something for civilians, it's with the

military in mind. and it's the other way around for military, maybe the civilians get to use it. but a perfect example of this is, there's a lot made about how difficult it is for us to get cybersecurity people in our military. this. in china, the other day china -- the everyday chinese person is recruited. qqto test our systems, to do hacking attempts. they get paid a penitence to do that. bu in the military. so, their whole society, if they want to be unified, works in unification to come after the united states of america because we are in the lead. rebeccah: great. you mentioned already -- and i appreciated you mentioned that hudson's role, during the cold war, the work that -- it wasn't

me, i wasn't here yet, but i was on the scene soon after. they're concerned about combating ussr during the cold war. so now let's talk about the think tanks in the united states now in washington. it's not necessarily the case that they are objectively seeking beginning from a pro america perspective and doing what we can to make the united states stronger in combat our enemies. the really interesting thing is about requirements, more transparency for where you are getting your money, your influence and support. so, that is another big aspect that china has been very successful at influencing not just think tanks but retired members of congress and lobbying efforts and other educational efforts. you talked about how you all thought about that particular yt

alluded to it a minute ago. after the bill passed 50-0 yesterday, we had people call os a conservative seen on many other issues. we have some of our most conservative think tank peoples who are industry people lobbyists reach out to us. rebeccah tiktok proposing the bill? rep. hern: absolutely. these are people that should be in would bbut because it was tid because they were maybe getting compensated, and these include former members that are now lobbing for the ccp, you have alluded this, china is very smart. we have been very openea$uesentr freedoms around the world. people look at xi jingping and he has been very savvy.

that's his unofficial title. his official title is of the chinese communist people. people need to realize they're coming after us in this way, so we want to know who is lobbying in the united states on their behalf. one of five is china. it was iran, russia, north korea and venezuela. if they are lobbying on behalf of those nations, we wanto who y want to do this because they think china has to have representation, they can do it free of charge. irebeccah: this is another thing that is remarkable, you are leading the senate committee to push on this because it takes some courage to say, we will not do this anymore. you could be of congress -- make sure they are lobbying on behalf

of these things we know that are being pushed by the chinese communist party, so it's kind of timely to really stop it. i have found that every time there is an effort, it seems like there is bipartisan support to and things like i can dj a drone cover and by the ccp. just when you think it's going to happen, there's this overwhelming lobbying effort, and then it stops and suddenly goes away for a while. that is a very good and useful aspect of the bill. rep. hern: many of our fortune 100 companies have a massive presence in china. it's a big economy. you want them to take it vantage because the more they can grow and have more production, the less kospi pay as consumers, we demand it as a free market, but also, when i look at what's happening there, i reminded

often about what china is trying to do, and they want to suck a sin. bill goes by the wayside, a singular bill, you don't hear from these folks anymore. i don't hate china, i just love america. so i think if we had that narrative that america is first, i know that makes some people feel uncomfortable, but we have to look at it that way because they are looking at china first. >> you brought up a point that's missing in the discourse which is understanding the ideogif tht shared ideas about reciprocity and trade, those are the principles that they base their ideas. they would haveated about these things.

they are trying to push the united states out to be the most powerful power. that means there in -- that means they are infringing on america freedoms. rep. hern: they can come in and be the white horse to rescue these other formations, and they are doing just that. we had the general speak to us a few months ago regarding the unrest in the middle east and what's happening in ukraine, you have to love the guy and the knowledge he has about seeing this firsthand. he set a mistake we should not americans in the free and western worlds is that we should not make the mistake to think that iran is not the center of all of this. furthermore, we should not make a mistake to not understand that china is the one that's bankrolling all of this. so you have a person, a proxy in

iran that is using palestinian, hamas, and the list goes on, to put the money china is back in a is back in north korea, china is in venezuela. through the economic power, creating the unrest. >> i could talk about -- rebeccah:you. this is how this ties together. things are not going well on the world stage. we've got crises that you mentioned in the red sea. we have crisis russia invasions of ukraine still ongoing. then you have chinese provocative reckless behavior in the pacific really threatening -- using water canyons, etc., against the philippines. they are actually not unrelated. i want to just get back just to make the final point on what'onh iran driving all of this.

and these uranian proxies are not even going to hit. so the chinese flagship will go through the red sea and the russian flagship can go through the red sea unscathed. but the who sees -- houthis will continue hitting this in the red sea. rep. hern:i think about how many days that ships have to go around southern africa to bring product to the united states or to■> bring oil, gas products coming from china. if you know that your ships will never be sunk, you have no problemyou will always have lowt goods from anybody else moving stuff out of india, southeast asia, australia or anywhere. so there is a concern about this. and then when you look at the chinese, what they are doing to bring south africa closer to south america -- i was just in

the six fleet talking to people in■x africa and on the eastern seaboard -- western seaboard of africa, china is building ports because that's the closest connection on ships between south africa and south america, straight to venezuela. just recently talking with the government in lima, peru saying they are building a huge super poor, three and a half billion dollar port in china says we will build this port, you can't have customs there, you cannot have security customs there. so, that's the closest to china to come into south america. so while we live in comfort with the pacific in atlanta -- atlantic, china is moving through south america and through mexico in the united states. rebeccah: that's incredibly

informative, congressmen, let's talk specifically, get back over to the middle east that is a hot button issue right now. china, let's think about the biden administration's strategy for thesg so well. it's a policy towards iran versus policy towards china. if you don't understand that china is the one bankrolling the iranians, you cannot come up with a coherent strategy. if you don't understand that sending drones to the russian war efforts against ukraine, you cannot come up with a way to get the russians back in their own country. i know this is important because we are here to talk about your china bill, but to understand why it's so important to take on china and its effect on these other countries. how you are thinking about that

and how it is trying to tackle the iran problem in the context of china. rep. hern: we spent a lot of time talking about the $6 billion released out of qatar and the president saying it will be used inox■ blien saying it will be used for humanitarian aid and iran and you have the clerics. it's our money, we will do what we want with it. nobody pushed back on it. the 6 billion coming out of qatar, that actually ends upbeil the amounts that have been coming back and forth. iraq was allowed to by $10 billion worth of energy from china, $60 billion worth of energy from iran. before mike pompeo and president trump in 2020, their reserve currencies were down to $10 billion or so and they are backup approaching 100 billion ■plus because they have an inflx of money and they turned around

with the creation of unrest and economic uncertainty. 700 billion got -- barrel -- 700 billion barrels a day and its 's dollar. a barrel of oil is denominated in u.s. dollar. except for the relationship has been bought by the chinese dollar. when you also look at what's happening -- in august, it's sed on all the outside people looking in, that 91 percent of iranians oil production is about china. then you turn around and seechie chips for their drones that are going to russia. to your point, it's all one big happy family. until you saw was going after the people in creating the worst areas, the bad people, like iran , actually going after those sanctions, you won't ever stop it.

rebeccah: would it be fair to say, ts conservatives, as a pay and as a movement, is turning inward and neglecting american leadership, just putting it very bluntly. it sounds to me like everything you said here would doom us. that a lot of what you are saying is a very smart u.s. intentionality on energy policy, for instance, but on technology and collaborating with allies. i don't know how we do all that as a country without the collaboration of like-minded allies, who are really in perils because of adversaries in china, russia, north korea. rep. hern: you mention my background, how i came to congress six years ago, never been in politics. it's not about politics. i hate politics. politics of america are getting

in the way of our national security. look at our southern border. but that's the same thing happening around the world. from -- for political statements we are not going after good policy. i was just speaking with the german finance minister about this in the reference there is, what we have seen with russian oil and energy coming to europe, and how that has decimated our energy supply, we can't allow that to happen when china invades taiwan. we have to figure out how to turn back to the united states, turned back to people who are of peace and harmony and want a stable environment. i think our western allies are starting to wake up to this, but they are not being hoodwinked by what china is trying to deliver. rebeccah: it's a really interesting phenomenon. as these authoritarian companies are more clearly collaborating

and more brazenly collaborating to undermine the united states and our■h allies, you are actuay seeing some surprising systems increasing collaborations among life -- like-minded pro-democracy corporations. let the weenie at demonstrating solidarity with taiwan. taiwan solidarity with ukraine. interesting different theaters of the world. i think it will be necessary moving forward to get some of this stuff done. you mentioned the border now a couple of different times, so let's talk about that, because i think the focus is on china, but china -- chinese nationals is the largest growing demographics of people coming illegally across the southern border. so talk about how you see border security is related to this general problem that we have with instability abroad. rep. hern: like our president, i have actually been to the border when there's people crossing the

border. i've seen it, i was in tucson a few weeks ago and those folks don't want asylum. they are coming across in camouflage and there are lots of chinese nationals coming through. but when you

when you look at two ports in mexico where most free course -- precursors are coming in in the factories to make fentanyl are only in mexico. i was just in panama, justof the countries have a fentanyl problem. it's now flowing south, it's now flowing east or west, it's only flowing north into the united states of america. rebeccah: here at hudson institute we have been at theirh ukraine and really coming up with education efforts to end te united states can support ukraine to end the war so that is favorable toi made this iss'y complicated and confused. the republican senate cmi -- i encourage you all to go look it up. they put out a budget every year

and it really lays out■@republio and recommend on a variety of issues. on page 44 on the bill, you really laid out the causes of the war, putin's regime was not deterred and seeks to destroy ukraine and continue his push towards nato to break up and undermine u.s. influence in our line of structure inthe recommeu give ukraine, you have a strategy and you giv ukraine the weapons and needs to execute a strategy and that's how you get to the end of the war. is that still the view in the largely republican senate committee? rep. hern: it is me up of moderate republicans. i respect the views at of them have. one common theme is everybody

believes putin is a bad adversary. this guy, what he's done in ukraine is terrible. but we can't keep sending american taxpayer dollars there with no accountability on humanitarian aid. no accountability on the weapon strategy to end of this war. it's just to send us another 50 billion, we spent $113 billion so far at the two-year mark, which is the equivalent of what we spent oistan. at least we kind of had a strategy, here, we don't really have a strategy. nobody believes that we will push putin out of ukraine. nobody believes that. there has to be some kind of brokered peace. but putin doesn't want that. he wants to continue fighting and he's lost hundreds of thousands of people. wee administration to give us oversight. we've had ideas from state, dod,

usaid. many of us have talked to the respected people in charge of eve we have gotten any part of the satisfactory. we have to continue to work on humanitarian aid, propping it up -- rebeccah: so the focus for you and conservative members of congress is if there is a strategy to empower ukraine to victory and get them the weapons they need and not necessarily more economic aid, or perhaps we could do ahe focus should be on weapons backed by a strategy or to implement one? rep. hern: if you look at the first funding, it was a huge number of republicans. i actually voted for that. but then you start with, tell us

strategy, we do not want an endless war, and then you lost 87 or 97 republicans, and then tell us the strategy, 117 republicans, and i cannot even get the bill on the floor on the house side. so you are going to have to at some point in time as commander-in-chief tell us what your accountability will be and what is the strategy? i believe we will crush puritan once and for all. rebeccah: a lot of the weapons -- the reason i think it is hard to focus on weapons as a policy matter is investments does help security because it improves our own industrial defense base. rep. hern: i was talking to finance ministers, and the people of europe are helping ukraine probably because a c a dollar given to ukraine as something less than their social programs. here, we just borrow more money.

that is a joke. but to your point, all of their military industrial complexes make weapons, and we send them to ukraine, but we need strategy. rebeccah: and then having that ability to increase, bringing back your own bill, increase american innovation, adapt our weapons so that they can be up to par for essentially the new cold war we are in, not just in the russia context but you have to be able to produce the weapons at scale so we can determine not just russia but also china -- deter not just russia but also china. rep. hern: we actually have friends who are waiting. rebeccah: they have military scales approved, and many oand s different from the administration. i would like to take a couple of questions from the audience.

if you can just state your name and keep your questions brief. i might actually take a couple back to back so the congressman can just kind of hit both of those out of the park. >> good morning. i have not read your bill yet, but one oe issues that you mentioned earlier is about restrictions on u.s. investment in china, outboun been a point d i am wondering where you think the rsc is oncoming on coming to an answer on investment? rebeccah: one more question, and then we will get a microphone we would like the people watching online to be able to hear your brilliant question. >> good morning, thank you for being here. i and the general partner for defense technology venture capital firm.

thank you for leading the charge on the bill and everything else you are doing. i would like to understand a little bit more about your thoughts on the probability of success and how r.g. think the bill will be and -- how large you think the bill will be and when you think it will fit into place? we have a serious problem. china is behind everything, and the second part is, can we afford to wait on the strategy to get the arms to ukraine? i just feel like we are dithering, and it is not a good situation for us as a country. thank you. rep. hern: the outbound investment issue, the chips act, as you know, was a ban on basically communists china certd stuff, and the repercussions coming back was china says we have western companies that are supplying certain products to china, and this u.s. particular

chip company has been the sole supplier, 80% to 90%, of chips for decades, and so there is this technology wa going on, also. so it is not in a silo, and we have got to figure out how to deal with that. doing what to support some of these areas that china has used basically as a weapon against our own technology great article in the papers today talking about what that looks like. it is pretty emboldened what they hav in six years to really come after technology companies. and regarding -- you know, i this administration, we did not get a whole lot of direction last night on what strategies are, and to speak to what i have seen in classified settings, but i

think it is safe to say that nobody would like to 10 to be successful. what does that look like? we are seeing the eu step up and they cannot really supply a lot of military products because they don't make anything. ■imaybe a little bit in france d england, but as far as a huge supplier of things that matter that have been effective against ships, tanks and aircraft and drones come from the united states, so we have to look at how this balances out, d what m the speaker in the next few weeks. rebeccah: great. let's do one more back here. >> thank you. my question pertains to china. it is almost as if they have monopolized everything for the

u.s., and when we look at the great number you mentioned regarding migrants coming into the u.s. and when it comes to a military stance, the numbers in the u.s. are greater than our own military numbers, so how are we dealing with that? rep. hern: cannot very well, honestly. when -i example. i was visiting with the deputy chief -- the chief deputy cdp agen tucson three weeks ago, and he says, everybody sees the up next of texas and it is bad. people are coming across, and they say to agents that i would like to claim asylum. we have 256 miles of the tucson sector telling me this, and he says, by the way, when we crested the hill, every

republican there w pleased to the 22 miles of law, 20 was president obama's. most people in america would believe that president never foot of wall. he built a wall because he knew it worked. the next two miles was president trump's. it was 10 feet ar they did a psychological survey because people were coming over the 20 foot wall, and they would get to the top and say 20 feet is not too far to fall but dirty feet will hurt. and then you get to the top of the ridge of the mountain, and there is a plow paved road, and that was president biden's law. -- wall. there is no wall. the agent said 2017-2018, 70,000 people traveled thousands of miles. this year, it will be close to 800,000. and there were no agents on this

wall for 22 miles, and he said, we will show you the camera footage. they're coming to the mountains. they are cfl backpacks, guns. they have carpet shoes on. either way, main street media is now reporting on this, that is ng they would have done five years ago. we know it is a bad deal and that is why you are seeing push on give us the border to secure our nation, d i think americans need to get their mind around it, as he id■! appreciate you stating that because it is a great danger. one was a prominent person in the government saying, we are sitting and talking with folks at the embassy a they said when china comes into a country, they don't ask whether they are going to make money or not, they just go spend the money because they are doing it for strategic

purposes to be somewhere. because of our free market and our separation between companies and government, when our companies come in, they have to ask, can i make money doing that ? i cannot just lose money. that is not what my stakeholders willll with the chinese communist people who would like to destroy our way of life. rebeccah: congressman, i you coming to talk about you cosponsoring the bill to protect american young people from the influence of the chinese government and social media app. thank you for this teaching tool, really wonderful. it finds bipartisan solutions to the china threat, walking us through the russian threats that is chronic and acute in the u.s. for our allies, the threats from iran and north korea. we could keep going on. it takes some willingness to get work done across ther being her.

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