>> who knows? someone out in this audience might be someone who someone follows in my footsteps. peter: katie roger, white house correspondent for the new york times, you write in your book about barbara bush's 1991 commencement americans who observed the speh at day saw a first who used grace, a

nod to a new deck -- generation of acknowledged chimes were changing. what is the background of the speech and why did you include it in a book about 21st-century firs ladies? katie: that opening came through my reporting, actually. i spent almost 2.5 yeaporting tt came through a c■mveioi historiw the office better than i did and talked to me about this speech that barbara bush gave and said, this is a really the tides are changing, this woman said that isom that marks the seachange in the office itself and against the bac whaty

and watched the speech and did more research about it. it was a front page story on controversy about barbara bush, a woman who did not work outside the home, giving a speech to the women at wellepart of a fin wave, who were beginning to question what they could want outside the home versus being inside the home only. person who was invited to give a speech that year was alice walker, famous■9 for coing the term womanist instead of feminist. walker turned the invitation

down in the second invitatn busa petition went around, not wanting her to speak. ó think about the present ladies commencement speech, that was a huge degree of controversy about whether orot t fired to c. she said ink these women have a lot to learn from a f sua bush was very savvy and instince into the setting where she knew the odds were kind of against her, and slipped the entire idea on itsd as he played in that clip, this acknowledgment that drive -- times were she said you might regret missing the meeting, regret mise

with your family and spouse, but there was this elegant and graceful acknowledgment from her that women a time in our culture andiswanted both and the having it all was point then e s what that peter: means ever since. peter:when you talk abou a seachange, barbara bush left bush. ■rbut four of the five last firt ladies have all had advanced degrees. thaight. but only one of them, jill bin, has worked outside this role, essentially the most scrutinized volunteer role in american politics. the fact that there are womens d not pursued that says something

about these unofficial but very rigid expectations around the world -- around the role. peter: barbara bush was not the first first lady to speak at co. let's listen. >> in the position of leadership and power, we hav an indispensable element for criticizing and constructive protests. katie:lass at --we listening hillary radom -- hillary rodham at her commencement address. she requested to deliver the speech to her fellow graduates, it was considered a really radical thing to she

challenge this idea of the status quo. peter: you write that her speech received a standing prevention -- ovationyd but draws a chopped -- but dropped to the jaws of some of the older members. katie: wellesley had to send a . just the fact that there was a and speak outside of the and whs expected of young people at that time. peter: was it a sign of hillary rodham clinton's first lady being groundbreaking? katie: looking at her entire history, i do think so, and i think it is also a sign of how much more she would have wanted

to and how history in general for how willing she has been to sort of take some hits for speaking out and pushing the boundaries of first ing a student and then a first lady and ending as a candidate, i think her time at wellesleyst interesting stages of her life andua when she served as first lady you see her really seen as a political and intellectual equal, ascs her husband viewed her. peter: of her maiden name when she practiced law in arkansas. it is hard to say,

■ not pursuing politics at that time. she was married to someone who was very interested in it. he was just more of an anomaly wh would be at a networking event and have hillary rodham her badge, people did not know how to take it, it was a woman to wo stick to her given6& and it was only until a clinton advisor advised her that it was likely hurting her husband that she relented. it was even a big deal for her to keep r maidame on stationary. so it was more about having her husband suee gave it up, which seems to a lot of

women now, i think, a strange but it was not that long ago. peter:about the next video we wo show this is hillary rodham clinton in 1992 on the campaign trail. >> i am not sittingby my man. i am sitting here because honor what he has been through and whathave been through together. and if tt is not enougfor people, do not vote for him. peter: katie rogers what was the reaction to the stand by your man comment? katie: it was explosives. and one of the most interesting thing stylistically about that response is the twang that is still÷ her voice. she begins to lose it the more she begins■@ to answer questions like this and the about

what sort of spouse she would be. she adopts, she returns to the more steely midwestern way of speaking the more she is asked abouthis, that is just an aside i find fascinating. to is politics and play. yeah, that the response was explosive. one of the more interesting things about her is how observers never seem to conclude et not she should stand by her man some daylight. peter:one year later, bill clinton made this announcement. >> i am grateful that hillary has this task force not only because it means she wil be sharing some of the heat i expect to

ge you know, while i was governor of my state, hillary chaired the arkansas standards committee that created publicn o become a matter for a national reform. she was my designee chair of our state rural health community. i think in the coming months, the americann■k; learn that we have a first lady of many talents, who most of all people together around complex, difficult issues to hammer out consensus and get things done. peter: katie rogers, has any first lady in the past had such a public facing policy role? katie: no, and i think it is important to underd the context of the clinton campaign. bill had essentially said you two-for-one with

us, which also did not set her up for success in the eyes of people who did not want that. the clintons came into office assuming americans were ready for that. so i think the reaction to appointing her as the leadf the commission on reforming health care was a sign the ■a the country was on president and first lady involving themselves her, so deeply in a policyssue. peter: you write, no first lady had ever tried to sh the of her, so fast. the speed and aggression of the effort was too much for americans. other first lady's have fought for policy but none that testified before the senate or traveled the country or been burned in effigy. w there was so much anger

over the clinton white house moving really fast on this issue that one of her advisors told me it was terrifying to be out, essentially this policy matter when would be banging on the motorcade cars or burning her in anger that even to this advisors feel was pretty much completely because of gender and i think ther is probably a more complicated set of factors that went into the anger over that, but it is hard to deny what some of the criticism that it was. pete wheng6dham clinton for your book, did you talk about the health care policy issue? katie: we did, and i remember asking her, knowing what you know now, would you have done

this differently, would you have stepped back? i said i imagine you might nott. it is important to me tok a solution, i am a policy person and if back, i would have done that. hindsight is 220 and w knows , you do not get the opportunity to do things like that over again, but her point was very much seeming to be come from somebody who has learned the hard way that americans did not wa a first lady. peter: you write laura bush benefited from hillary rodham clinton. how so? katie: one clinton advisor hillary clinton could never wear a pantsuit, iin the media, it ws dissect did wi24thinf its life if she did.

laura bush wearing pants suits all thee that as something thats smoothed for the first superficn its face, i would argue that it is n■not, but also laura bush hd thnesomebody who had been really rate over by the media, by her political opponents during the impeachment. so there is also the fact thatíe first lady unexpectedly so it is not al but laura bush was able to tover the presidential radio address during the war and th way hillary clinton would have been able to speak for her husband in any

formal capacity, especially after the health care debacle. peter: here is laura bush 17, 2. >> only the terrorists and taliban for bid education of women. only they threaten to pull out the fingernails of women for wearing nail polish. the plight omein afghanistan isf deliberate human cruty, out by o intimidate and control. civized pele throughout the world are speaking out in horror , not only because our hearts break for the women and children in afghanistan, but also because in?k afghanistan, we see the wod the terrorists would like to pose on the rest of us. peter: katie rogers, that was a big deal at the time. katie: it wasn't a big deal

it in the context ofbush was dot hillary clinton deal, a huge mi she could speak on behalf ofration on foreign policy, of all things. was truly, if you think back to that time, it was collectively traumatic people. the bushes did not see it coming.role that she had not exd wartime, the president is the ”hat first lady does share some of that responsibility. so i think it was seen as what was needed, all hands on deck, but in the context of what came immediately before, it is a big deal. peter: you use in your book to describe

laura bush. independent, covert not overt communicator. what are you getting at? katie: i am getting at laura bush had a style, and analyze ea modern first lady speeches, laura bush had a way of communicating that very, it came across as invested and relateds to her administration, but not intrinsically linked, not overtly political. it was more through the lens of a mother and wife and supporter of her husband w■. caredbout these issues, not as a senior advisor with her own

extensive track record understanding the political implications around everything that happened. ch was very much through the lens of a supporting le, which does not make it any less effective, but it is a different approach. peter:■ a more traditional approach, yes? katie: i think you could say at for sure, yes. ■.■@even someone like eleanor roosevelt wasd have her own pres conferences and independent travel schedule f but she very , even she would say that is my husband's domain when asked about or foreign policy. at laura bush kind of adopted that model, even more adna that. peter: here is laura bush

2005 at the white house correspondents association dinner. >> again. dinners for years. [laughter] and just quietlyit there. i have a few things i want tosa. always says he is delighted to come to these press dinners. k=[applause] he is usually in bed by now. i'm not kiddingi said to him th, george, if you really want to end security in the world, you are going to have to stay up later -- and tyranny world, youo

have to stay up later. peter:aking over her husband's speech was a big hit in washington. katie: a big hit because laura bush is actually smart and very funny and very quick and on top of everything else, her public persona was very much, this my husband's domain and that is mine. to have her sort ofvery dry, pre of humor, i also write in the ad tell me she was there to remind george bush of who he was and where he came from. and you can hear shat in the speech. peter: c-span did a series called first ladies and we sat down with laura bush for an extended interview. here is what she had to say about how she viewed her role>>f

years in the united states, since the very beginning, very active and involved first ladies who both support their husbands and their policies the husbands 1hare working on, but also in my cases have their own■l initiati. a lot of times to help women. a lot of times to help chiren. what we want, the first ladies, to know is that they can also do ■"that. there is a role for first ladies to have. to talk about especially women's issues and issues that have to do with children. r: katie rogers, as a white us it important or do people think about what their katie: of course they do. ly covered the trump and biden white houses but

through my reporting and w quess at the outset of every turn, is the first lady's portfolio, agenda, what is she going to be doing? will she have multiple issues? is it ake to have multiple instead of one like what we saw with a jill bidenfact that she f have a tentpole issue a constant question about if it is the right thing to do. i think are enormously interested in thethe first ladye to laura bush's point about being an advocate for women and children but i think there is an underlying curiosity:( from the americannd it is a totally reasonable curiosity, how much influence does she have with her husband?

how much canheange through her husband? what does that agenda look like privately between the two of them? that is sort of an interesting subtext of all of that interest. really see that from the clinn whho book is about. peter:h invited historians to the white house late in their administration to discuss legacy. katie: that's right. i talked with several people who were invited for that ahe me thh as she did during the bush presidency, she was curious about how history would perceive her and what she could do or herself, framing her legacy after she was done. that was sort of the question

she had for historians at the end. peter: how do you think she is perceived today? katie: that is a really good question. i think the bushes exited washington in a time of a lot made in the wake 9/11i think n almost 23 years o, laura bush is almost ■it4someone who brought his domc decisions, she is t a

softer focus on some of the choices like no children left beericans to decide if that was the right thing to do, but i at her, she has this ability to reframe some really hard questions americans were asking and explain that to the public. ie rogers, you report that jill biden invited historians already to the white use early in their administration. was not to -- was that to help clarify her role? katie: another great question. i don't know. i think based on, i interviewed upwards of 125 people for the heok and many of i think based on my reporting, and this is not my opinion, it is just she had priorities,

which is central tthat but just right next to that prioritymains a teacher. she isom married into the biden family when joe biden was already a senator. she was a viewed teaching as a o stabilize her ownvery defiant f. the goal, the north star, has been joe biden and his politicsn keeping something for heel driv. so i think when she metose histt a gut check to assess whether or noting a few different initiatives that were smallerncy

college, whether that ■+s enough. and it was a debate about whether or not it was. so i do not know if it helped her define her legacy, i think whatever happened after that meeting, it is teaching and also another she cj popular and effective campaigner for her husband. more than anything, more than policy, it has been teaching and raising money and traveling the country with her husband peter: from her book -- from yo book, jill winced at the idea from the historians that she was only doing things that important to her. the bidens haveeesafely ensconced among loy

cades but have often said they wanted to hear fromamericans. the suggestion that she was undertaking these causes because she was personally attracted to them was not something she was used to hearing. katie: that is true. there is a historian who asked the feedback, americans see you was personally involved with cancer research, and that is of course related to, she had friends who died of breast cancer early in her but also beau biden died in 2016 of brain cancer so the feedback from historians was light, ittht people see u.s. personally tied to these things. so that was kind of b for her to hear afterwards in terms of what she was discussing with

feedback. so i think thatething she was proud of, she was proud va effort, is proud of her effort in e of cancer research and community education and to hear that it was perhaps not enough for most americans was a hard thing to hear. peter: shexr still teaches englh on tuesdays at nova community college in northern virginia. and you wrote that she said make it happen. katie: what is not publicly book details is the degree to which she had to sort ofteach without her husbans advisor wondering out loud how she would be pai h would not run afoul of ethics laws.

was conceed and with the help of her age she had to push to do this and convince everyone it so she had toork bee scenes to make that happen. not a given that she wod though she had publicly said she plans to. peter: and no repoer katie:and state division. think any reporter who would ask the college gets routed immediately to the east wing, which is her a huge part of her identity and life, it is interesting to me that they do not allow■ peope

to see that, especially because it is such a huge part of her public identity. peter: did check out her rate to professor reviews. katie:they think she is a tough grader. on trips i he of pouringinvesto her students. peter: katie rogers, from your extended interviews with jill biden, what are yourpressions? katie: mya short question with g aner, i think. i think she has been in public life for a really long time, as has her husband.

and i think she is very practiced at allowing glimpses of her persol lifeetted and worp and approved over a lot of years. she argues that there is not much different between who she is in publ an private, and that is an interesting thing to say. i guess that's a way of saying she has learned toover many yeac eye. she is conversational, curious, she often answers a question with a question, which is i an interesting tactic in an interview.

i think she is hardo then agains given so much of to the public already, that i think i can understandow that would be very important to protect. peter: we are going to show video of her in that campaign trail in 2020 in los angeles. ■-- on the campaign trail in 200 in los angelespeter: katie rogee her as the family enforcer, protector, america's mother. she took those protesters down who came up on that stage.év katie: i feel likewatched that 0

times. i think it says #a lot ato sorr husband and anyone trying to hurt. the biden family is very protective of the president in general, and has been for a lons his core of wanting to make sure he is ok. she tough, there is part of the philadelphia girl persona that is very true, it is who she is. peter: was she willing to talk about her role as to beau, hunter, ashley, and subsequently the age issue being

discussed in political circles? katie: she talked about hunter in the sense that she checks in on him regularly. she is his mom, you know? obviously amelia in 1972 along with bowen hunter's infant sier. but they call amelia mommy and as mom. she wants with hunter regularly to let him know that she loves him and is thinng him. ashley, as well. very apparent, also in light of the special counsel report that came out lastk,u was and how much they still feel thatévpeter: here is jill bidene

2020 democratic convention. >> there are those who want to tell usur country is hopelessly divided, our differences are irreconcilable. but thaten over the last few months. weto each other. we arece in the moments we might have taken for granted seeing our dis are precioussimilarities infini. we have shown that the heart of this nation still beats with ss and courage. peter: katie rogers? katie: i have a reaction to it t that that was a huge promise of the bidens in 2020, they would be the uniter's and work to mendhe country back together after four years

of donald trump and a hugely traumatic national expere pandemic. my reaction todo is that the tone is very different this year. there is not much talk of unity. think an acknowledgment that it is easier said than do you get the chanceo see jill biden around the white house when you are working on your day job? katie: no. when i am there, i am in the having interactions with people who work for the president, her unless i am at an event that the east wing is posting or traveling with her. she is not somebody who is walking around the west wing,

having informal meetings with advisors for her husband. she trusts that they are protecti him and doing the right thing for him him having to sort of micromanage that. peter: how big is the new york times staff at the white house? reporters? katie: i think we have six nowir in for reporters abroad or working on projects, but i think we have six right now. t was yourthe new york times? katie: from indiana and started at my hometown paper in

2007. that was when the great recession happened. i'm only going back this far because it is a weird path mpi decided to go to graduate school at northwestern because the economy was terrible and i anted a reporting job so i thought maybe if i got a graduate degree in■ jouald go sd wo interested in d done it as a kid facebook and twitter and back then, that was very new and just a whole other world of reporting that was unlocked. it came naturally toe, i made my way to washington. i worked on social media at the washington post and transitioned to local reporting and did a lot

of the same work■ the guardian commit breaking news through social media. way. and then i got a job at the working on an app and was hired on the overnight shift 10 years ago to app and weirdly"t■"ng that timen ferguson, i would report overnight and feed breaking news to the national desk or whoever needed it. and i came up through that world of breaking news and general assignmentewand paired that wite writing, which i love to do, and it brought me to the washington bureau the first weekend of the trump protestant -- trump

presidency. i covered features and it wsupps and i am still here and i have been on the white house team since 2018 so i have a lot of a different background of the reporters had at the paper. a lot of them who are a little older, a lot of them started their time as copy■ clerks. i took a completely different tg of digital called "american wome transformation of the modern first lady, from hilary clinton to jill biden." do you think jill biden's second as first and second lady haveel the bubble, the degree of protection that goes into the everyday life

of tse principles. she had a lot more freedom to move without scrutiny than she does now, but i think it was instructive she works with michelle obama on the military families initiative that she has carried forward through her time as first lady so there is that able to teach as second lady, she was able to say, i made this happen then, make this happen now. she had the understanding of what it took when the bidens■i peter: was michelle obama a tough act to follow?

katie: i did not ask of the according to her aides and finding aids going back to the viceredency -- biden aids going back to the vice presidcy yes, because the expectations surrounding michelle obama and what she would do with the platform and how she would use it and how -- what she would say on what she uld we, interest in herinto a lot of it one person said she made washington cool. celebrities wanted to be at the obama white house. they wanted to know what she was wearing, what designers, and then therst lady element of it,e

racialigated that by all accounts with grace and a pragmatic understanding of what was expectedrom her. so in that sense, followinge tht , and also we had another first lady in between the two of them, we cannot leave out melania trump, really, becauset nd of reset the expectations to zero when you little with her atrm. so if jill biden had followed michelle obama, that probably would have been mu more of a question. but there was period where things were unraveled and here c

national convention. >> you work hard from what you want at life, thaur word is your bond, you do what you say you are going to do, that you people with dignity and respect, even if you do not know themand even if you do not agree with them. [applause] and barack and set out to