>> w knows? in this audience might be someone who someone follows in footsteps. peter: katie rogers, white house correspondent for the new yoritk about barbara bush's 1991 commcent address, americans who observed the speech that day saw a first who usednod to a nen of acknowledged chimes were changing. what is the background of the speech and why did you include it in a book about 21st-century first ladies? katie: that opening scene came

through my reporting, actually. i spent almost 2.5 years reporting this book and it came through a conversation i had with a historian who knew the office better than i did meh that barbara bush gave and said, this is a really a moment, the tides are changing, this woman said that is a moment and againp ofx6 what is happening culturaly in america. so i went back and watched the speech it. it was a front page story on controversy about barbara bush,

a woman who did not work outside a speech to the women at wellesley who were part of a feminism secondthey could e versus being inside the home only. the first person who was invited to give a speech tt year was alice walker, famous for coining the term womanist instead of feminist. walker turned the invitation down in the second invitation went to barbara bush and a petition went around, not wain speak. the president got invo about tht

getting involved in the first ladies commencementhuge degree y about whether or not the first lady was invited toome. she said i t these women have a lot to learn from a first la,y■& and sure enough, barbara bush was very savvy and led ncts, came into the setting where she knew the odds were kind of against her,■: and slipped the entire ia on its head■ played in that clip, this acknowledgment that drive -- times were changing, she said you might not regret missing the meeting, b you would regret missing the time with your family spouse, but there was this elegant and womer culture and history where they

wanted both and the phrase having it all was point then and h been asking ourselves what that peter: means ever since. peter:when you talk about a seachange, barbara bush left college to marry georgwbush. the five last first ladies have all had advanced degrees. katie: that is right. t only one of them, jill has worked outside this role, essentially the most scrutinized volunteer role in american politics. the fact that there are women who have advanced degrees and not pursued that says something about these unofficial but very rigid expectations around the world -- around the role. peter: barbara bush was not the first first lady to speak at a ommencement. let's listen. >> in the position of leadership

and power, we have an indispensable element for criticizing and constructive es what are we listening to, katie rogers? katie: hilary iran him addressing her class at -- hillary radom -- hillary rodham at her commencement address. shedeliver the speech to her fellow gradu, it was considered a really radical thing to■: do, she challenge this idea of the status quo. peter: you write that her speech received a standing prevention -- ovation but draws a chopped

-- but dropped to the jaws of some of the older wellesley hada letter of apology. just the fact that there was a woman who was willing to get u e societal normsnd what was expected of young people at that time. peter: was a sign of hillary rodham clinton's first lady groundbreaking? katie:t her entire history, i do think so, and i think it is also a sign of how much more she would have wanted to do with that role■[ and how much more she did do beyond in is an interesting feature■u■w willing she has been to sort of

take some hits for speaking out and pushing the boundaries of first being a student and then a first lady and ending as a presidential candidate, i think her time at wellesley and as fiinteresting stages of her life and when she served as first dy really seen as political and intellectual equal, as her husband viewed her. peter: her use of her maiden name when she practiced law in arkansas. did that hurt her politically? tie: it is hard to say, because she was■b not pursuing politics at that time. she was married to someone who was very interested in it. more of an anomaly when she w be at a

networking event and have hillary rodham clinton on her badge, people did not know how to take it, it was a foreign concepr woman to want to stick to her given was only untn advisor advised h that as she relented. it was even a big deal for her to keep her maiden name on stationary. so it was more about having her husband succeed if sheup, whichf women now, i think, a strange thing to be asked to do. but it was not thalong ago. peter: in your book, you write about the next video we want to show.

ary rodham clinton in 1992 on the campaign trail. >> i am not sitting her som i am sitting here because i love him d ret honor what he has been through and what we have been through together. and if that is not enough for people, do notthe reaction to the stand by your man comment? katie: it was explosives. and one of the most interes response is the twang that is still in she begins to lose it the more and the asked about questions what sort of spouse she would be. she adopts, she returns to the more steely midw of speaking the more she is asked about this, that is just an

aside i find fascinating. to me, that politics and play. yeah, that the response was explosive. one of the is to conclude whether or not she should stand by her man or sh some daylight. peter: almost exactly one year later, bill clinton made this announcement. >>■p i am grateful that hillary has agreed to force not only bee it means she will be sharing some of the heat i expect to generate. as many of■ you know, while i ws chaired the arkansas standards committee that created public education standard that set to become a matter for a national

reform. she was my designee chair of our state rural health community. i think in the coming months, that we have a first lady of talents, who most of all complex, difficult issues to hammer out consensus and get thinon, has any first lady in the past had such a public facing policy role? katie: no, and i think it is important to understand it in the contbill clintongd had essey said you get with us, which also did not set her for success in the eyes of people who did not want that. the clintons came into office assuming americans were ready for that.

think the reaction to appointing her as the lead of the commission on reforminalth e clintons miss read where a lot was and first lady involving themselves, involving her, so deeply in a policy issue. ter: you wri, no first lady had ever tri to push the boundaries of r le so far, so fast. the speed and aggression of the effort was too much for americans. other first lady's have fought for policy but none that testified before the senate or tr or been burned in effigy. what was going on? there was so much anger the clinton white house moving really fast on this issue sors told me

essentially on the stump foricy■ would be banging on the motorcade cars or burning her in effigy across the country,he ano this day,advisors feel was preth completely because of gender and i think there is probably a more complicated set of factors that went into the anger over tbut ie of the criticism that it was. peter: when you interviewr book, did you talk about the health care policy issue? katie: asking her, knowing what you differently, would you have stepped back? i■f said i imagine you might not have. she actually said, i wouant to a

solution, i am a policy person and if it anhave done that. hindsight is 20/20 and who , you do not get the opportunity to do things like that o■b■x■vey much seeming to be come from somebody who has learned the hard■k way that americans did nt want that from a fst ly. peter: you write that laura bush benefited from hillary rodham clinton. how so? katie: one clinton advisor said hillary clinton could never wear a pantsuit, it media, it was dissect did within an inch of its life did. laura bush wearing pants suits all the time, clinton adv that s

smoothed for the first lady. i superficial on its face, i would argue that it is not, but also laura bush had the benefit of coming after dy who had been really rate overy the media, by her political opponen impeachment. so there isv also the fact that laurame a wartime first lady unexpectedly so it is not all related to hillary clinto but laura bush was able to take over the presidential ad there is a nory clinton would have been able to speak for■9 her husband in any formal capacity, especially after the health care debacle. >>e terrorists andra bush taliban for bid education of tht

the fingernails of women for wearing nail polish. the plight of women and children in afghanistan is a matter of deliberate human cruelty, carriedek to intimidate and control. civilized people toueaking out r , not only because homen and chn in afghanistan, but also because infghanistan, we see the world the terrorists would like to impose on the rest of u, that wa big deal at the time. katie: it wasn't a big deal in the moment, but if you look atia ■xbush was doing versus what hillary clinton had a deal, a he deal she could speak on

behalf of of the administration oni think in the moment it was truly, if you think back to that collectively traumatic fhepeople. the bushes did not see it coming. she had to step up into thisy that she had not expected to take, wartime, the president is the commander-in-chief but that t ity. so i think it was seen as what was needed, all hands on deck, but in the con of what came immediately before, it is a big deal. peter:our book to describe laura bush. restle independent, covert not overt communicator. what are you getting at? i am getting at laura

bush had a style, and this is talking withxperts to analyze each modern first lady speeches, laura bush had a way of communicating that very, it came across as and related to her intrinsically li, not overtly of a mother and wife and supporter of her husband who cared about thes issues, not as a senior advisor her own extensive track record understanding the political implications around everything that happened. her approach was very much through the lens of a supporting

role, which does not less effective, but it is a different approach. peter: a more traditional approach, yes? katie:nkould say that for sure, y omeone like eleanor roosevelt wasery much, she would have her own press conferences and independent travel schedule from her husband's, she very much, even she my husband's domain when asked about or foreign policy. at laura bush kind of adopted that model, even more traditional than that. peter: here is laura bush in 2005 at the white house correspondents association dinner. >> not that old joke.

not again. is. [laughter] and just quietly sitting have ao say. george always says he is delighted to come to these press dinners. baloney. [laughter] [applause] is usually in bed by now. i'm not kidding. [laughter] you really want to end security in the wldyou are going to have to stay up later -- and security -- tyranny in the world, you are going to have to stay up later. peter: husband's speech was a big hit in washington. katie: a big hit because laura

bush funny and very quick and on top of everything else, was very mus my hndto have her sort of show s very dry, pragmatic,g texan sene of humor, i also write in the book that bush advisors would tell me she was there to he wasd where he came from. and you can hear and see that in the c-span did a series called first ladies and we sat down with laura bush for an extended interview. here is what she had to say about how she viewed her role as first lady. we have hadyears in, since the beginning, very active and involved first ladies who both husbands and their policies the husbands

are working on, but also in many cases have their own initiative. imes to help women. a lot of times to help children. what we want, the first ladies, to know is that they can also do that. there is a role for first ladies to have. to talk about especially women's issues and issues that have to do with children. peter: katie rogers, as a white house correspondent, is■u it important or do people think about what the first lady's agendas? katie: of course they do. i and biden white houses but through my reporting and writing in questions at the outset of every turn, what is the first lady's portfolio, agenda, what is she going to be doing? is it a mistake to have multiple

instead of one like what we saw with a jill biden right now, the fact that she does not sort of constant question about if it is the right thing to do. people i think are enormously interested in thethe first ladye to laura■j&÷int about being an advocate for women and children but i think there is an underlying curiosity2c from the american people, a totally reasonable curiosity, how much influence show much ce througwhat does that agenda loog subtext of all of that interest.

and yo really see that from the clinton white house and forward, which is what this book is about. historians to the white house late in their administration to discuss legacy. katie: that and they relayed to me that for as much as she d during the bush presidency, she was curious about how history would perceive her and what she could do orher. that was sort of the question she had for historians at the end. peter: how do you think she is perceived today? katie: that is a really good question. i think

the bushes exited washington in a time of a lot of criticism around the choices president bush made in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. @ii think now almost 23 years o, laura bush is seen almost domestic policy decisions, she is the first lady l softer focus on some of the choices like no children left behind. it is to decide if that was the right thing to do, but i at her, she has this ability to

■q hard questions americans were asking and explain that to the public. peter: katie rogs, you report that jill biden invited historians already to the white house administration. was not to help -- was that to help clarify her role? katie: another great question. i don't know. i think based interviewed ■# upwas of 125 people for the book and manof themi inbased on, and this is not my opinion, it is just she had priorities, which is central to that was supp but just right next to that priorityr ows a teacher. she is somebody whon family when

was already a senator. she was a teacher. 1zhúsheteaching as a way to stabilize her own identity in a very defiant family. fhthe goal, the north star, has been joe biden and his political mission and her in keeping something for herself was a huge driver. so i think when she met withas t a gut check to assesshe■anot dit initiatives that were smaller, supporting research, free commuy college, whether that was enough. and it was a debate about whether or not it was. so i do not know if it helped

her define her legacy, i think whatever happened after that meeting, it is pretty clear thao another thing is that she she is a very popular and effective campaigner for her husband. more than anything, more than li been teaching and raising money and traveling the country with her husband. peter: from her book - from your book, jill winced at the idea from the historians that she was only doing things that were important toer. the bidens have been safely sconced among loyalists for decades but have often said they nted to hear from outsis. the suggestion that she was undertaking these causes because she was personally attracted to them was not something she was used to hearing. katie: that is true.

there is a who asked her in that meeting, or gave her the feedback, americans see you was personally involved with cancer research, and that is of course related to, she had friends who died of breast cancer early in her lif but also beau biden died in 2016 of brain cancer sohe feedback from historians was light, it is that and community college but tied to these things. so that was kind of bruisingrwas of what she was discussing with ck. so i think that was something she was proud of, she was proud ofer effort, is proud of her effort in the arenas cancer

research and community educa ens was a hard thing to hear. peter: she still teaches english on tuesdays at nova community college in northern virginia. and you wrote that she said make it happen. katie: what is not publicly known that my is the degree to which she had to sort of fight to be able to teach without her husband or his advisor wondering out loud how she would be paid, how it would not run afoul of ethics laws. president biden was concerned it would too and with push to do this and convine everyone it was ok to do.

so she had to work behind the scenes to make that happen. it was not a given that she would teach, evenshe had publicly said she plans to. peter: and no reporterskatie:■ h and state division. think any reporr woimmediately, which is her prerogative. repora huge part of her identity and life storyg to me that they do not allow to see that, especially because it a huge part of her public identity. peter: but you did check outer rate to professor reviews. they think she is a tough

grader. on trips i have taken with her, i have seen her sort of pouring over the papers anshinvestedn go her students. peter: katie rogers, from extended interviews with jill biden, what are your katie: my impressio? a short question with a long answer, i think. i think she has been in public life for a reall tim as has her husband. and i think she is very at allowing glimpses of her personal life thaha6kve

workshop and approved over a lot of years. ■/she argues that there is not different between who she is in public and in private, and that is an interesting thing to y. i guess that's a way of saying she has learned to guard herself over many years in the public eye. urious, she often answers a question with a question, which is i think an interesting tactic in an interview. i think she is hard to get to know, t then again, she has given so much of to the public already, that i think i can understandow that wo

very important to protect. peter: we are going to show video of her in that campaign trail in 2020 in los angeles. -- on the campaign trail in 2020 in los angeles. peter: katie rogers you describe her as the family enforcer, protector, america's mother. she took those protesters down who came up on that stage. i feel like i have watched that video probably 30 times. i think it says a lot about her instincts in thatto sort of geto

hurt■qthe biden family is very protective of the president in general, and has been for a long t she sort of makes his core of wanting to make sure he is ok. she tough, there is part of the philadelphia girl persona that is very true, it is who she is. peter: was she willing to talk about her role as mother to■l beau, hunter, ashley, and subsequently age issue being discussed in political circles? katie: she talked about hunter in the sense that she checks in on him regularly. she is his mom, you know? obviously amelia■÷ied in 1972

along with bowen hunter's infant sister. but they call amelia mommy and they refer to the first lady as mom. she wants with hunter regularly to let him know that she loves him and is thinking about him. ashley, as well. i think though -- beau, iis very apparent, also in light of the special counsel report that came out last week, how upsetting the loss of beau was and how much they still feel thatpeter: here is jill biden ae 2020 democratic convention. >>yz there are those who want to tell us our coury■9 is hopelessly divided, our differences are irreconcilable.

but that is t he last few month. we are cominto other. we are finding mercy and momente taken for granted seeing our dis are precious and our similarities infinite. we have that the heart of this nation still beats with courage. peter: katie rogers? katie: i have a reaction to it in the sense that was a huge promise of the bidens in 2020, they would be the uniter's and work to mend the country back together after four years of donald trump and a hugely traumatic national experience that was coronpandemic. my reaction to that is that the tone is very different this

year. there is not much talk of unity. acknowledgment that it is easier said than done. pete do you get the chance to jill biden around the white house when you are working on your day job? katie: no. when i am there, i am in the west wing or briefingons with pe who work for the president, her unless i am at an event that the east wing is posting or travg with her. she is not somebody who is wainhe west wing, having informal meetings with advisors for her husband. she trusts that they are protecting him and doing the right thing for him witho of mie

that. peter: how big is the new york times staff at the white house? how many reporters? katie: i think we have six now. it changes, depending on whether abroad or in for reporters abroad or working on projects, but i think we have six right now. your task rthe new york times? katie: i w from indiana and started at my hometownaper in 2007. that was when the great recession happened. going back this far because it is a weird path compared to a lot ofyi decided e

school at northwestern because the economy was terrible and i really wanted a re job so i thought maybe if i got a graduate degree in journalism id work in digital mea, i was always really interested in it as a kid so reporting through social tter and back then, that was very new and just a whole other world of reporting that was unlocked. it came naturally to me, so i made my way to washington. i worked on social media washington post and transitioned to local reporting and did a lot of the same work the guardian commit breaking news through social media. and reporting that way. and then i got a job at the times working on an app

hired on the overnight shift 10 years ago to and weirdlyno thatn ferguson, i would report overnight and feed breaking news to the national desk or whoever needed■e it. and i came up through that world of breaking news and general assignment rewrites. and■]eg i paired that with feate writing, which i love to do, and it brought me to the washington trump protestant -- trump presidency. i covered features and it was supposed to be for three months and i am still here and i have been on the white house team since 2018 so i have a lot of a different backgroundorters had e

paper. a lot of them who are a little older, a lot of them started their time as copy clerks. i took a completely different route through an understanding of digital media. katie rogers/e transformation of the modern first lady, from hilary clinton to jill biden." do you think jill second as first and second lady have helped over the role? the bubble, the degree of protection that goes into the everyday life of those principles. she had a lot more freedom to move without scrutiny than she

does now, but i think it was instructive she works with michelle obama on the military families initiative that she has carried forward through her time as first lady so there is that connection. alsoable to teach as second la, she was able to say, i made this happen now., will she had the understanding of what it took when the bidens we was michelle obama a tough act to follow? katie: i did not ask of the ■ícurrent first lady this, but according to her aides and finding aids going back to the vice presidency -- biden aids

going back to t ve presidency, # because the expectations surrounding michelle obama and what she would do with the platform and how she would use it and how -- what she would say on what she would wear, hery>snd michelle obama really leaned into a lot of itone person said she made washington cool. celebrities wanted to be at the obama white house. they wanted to know what she was wearing, what designers, and then there lady element of it, e racial that by all accounts with grace and a pragmatic understanding of what was expected from h.

was expected from h. that , and also we had another first lady in between the two of them, we cannot leave out melania trump, really, because it kind of reset the expectations to zero when you had a first lad who did very little with her platform.so if jill biden had fd michelle obama, that probably would have been muchjd more of a question. but there was tha period where things were unraveled and res h. >> you work hard from what you want at life, that your word is

your bond, you do what you say you are going to do, that you people with dignity and respect, even if you do not know them, and■x [applause] and barack and i set out to build lives guided by onto the next generation, because we want our children and all children in the nation to know that the only limits to your achievement is the reach of your dreams and yourthem. peter: katie rogersribe michell, straightforward speaking style, dry wit, little pncr politics, but did not want to live with the alternativhat stod not say yes to barack obama's run. katie: right. and that■r is in her own words, that she knew, she believed in

his potential so much that she her own interests aside professionally and personally to help him win, to campaign extensively for him, to take the hits, which she did when she stepped or misspoke. it is actually a traditional fit lady where these women do not want to take on the add scny and do not want to raise their children under these lights and it that choice she made out of belief in her husband. can you talk about the speaking? february 2008 in wisconsin, she was criticized for what we haver

this year is hope is making a meback. it is making a comeback, and let me tell you something else. time in my adult lifetime, i am really proud of . done well, but because i think people are hungry for change. i have beenr country moving int direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. peter: katie rogers? katie: the context of that, if we were not far down the from the september 11 attacks and there was so much anger over how it was handled was a huge swath of the american public who had given their

brothers, their friends to this war, so some of the criticism rooted■ in that and some of it was rooted in the fact that this is according to people who were around them at the time, the belief that this rooted in racial animus, having a woman , a black woman married to a black presidential candidate saying they were not proud of their country, so the root of the black experience in ame weld questioned. there were all of these differente criticism of her and the one her throughout the rest of the campaign and that she was cognizant what sort of being the angry spouse. that was a moment for her where she learned very early that

something that felt emphatic, hope is returning, my husband reprents that and criticizingat would be taken asm by a huge swat t here she is lar administration from tuskegee in 2015. >> at the end of the day, by staying true to t m have always known, i found that this journey has been incredibly fleeting. because no matter what happens,p i had the peace of knowing that all of the chatter, name-calling,noise. it did not define me. it did not change who i was. it most importantly could not hold me back. i have lea t long as i hold fast to my beliefs dal

compass, the only expey own. peter: katie rogers. katie: isn't it interesting what different voices you hear candia tried and tested first lady eight years on? that is my first instinct, hearing those speeches so close together. out all of the things she weathered personally, this goes back to the trump's as questioning president and that is something that went on for a longim it is something michelle obama said she will never forgive the trump's for doing. something she felt had endangered her family, they had two young girls in the white house. that is the scar tissue that develops in a row like this

when politics become increasingly calcified and tribal and sometimes dangerous. so you have a first lady at the end of her time saying all that matters is i know o i am. looking at michelle obama now, th on the world stage, is somebody who learned those lessons and is applying them in her post politics life. pete did michelle obama or neither did. melania trump engaged through a spokesperson. michel peter: quoteho tionship, both made it clear to the public what eh prides about the other. donald trump, motivated by power d ney, shared that he felt the first thing on his lift,

women, should take less effort riits on his agenda. melania, whossiate said is largely motivated by security l, has often spoken with a certain degree of pride of her ability to handle a man like trump. the fact th she could to stay with him, she has signaled, is a testament to her strength. yes. they have been very, they were moreut the exchange they were making in their relationship. he gave several interviews saying i could not -- her moneyd security, what am i good for? d ba essentially say the same thing, this is an exchange. so i think that over time, talking to people who know them,

their bonds and understanding of each otherny of these other relationships i wrote about in my book. but it is more of an exchange. k by many accounts she cares about him and believes in him, she would not have supported him during the birth