spanish-american war. the senior fellow at the brookings institution has just completed the second book in the trilogy, titled to the ghost at the feast. robert kagan, and conclusion, writes americans have complex attitudes towards power and morality. they have a sense of distinctiveness and remoteness and a tumultuous and highly contested political system. >> historian robert kagan on this episode of a book notes plus, it's available on the c-span now app or wherever you get your podcasts. announcer: there are almost 80 new members in the 118th congress, and a diverse group has a record number of women and minorities. but they're up an, careers and political philosophy. on monday at 8:00 p.m. eastern.

, hear from nathan moran, aaron how chin, -- watch new members of the 118th congress at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span or online at c-span.org. announcer: republican senator josh hawley insists the u.s. should redirect its policy focus from ukraine to china, saying it proposed a immediate threat to the u.s.. his remarks commit of speech at the heritage foundation.

>> welcome, china and ukraine, a time for truth. please welcome dr. kevin roberts.

president of the heritage foundation. dr. roberts: it's great to see this theater. those of you online, on c-span, thanks for joining us. senator josh hawley is our speaker today and it is fitting that the senior senator for missouri who is also attorney general, also one of the leading constitutional attorneys in the united states having argued cases in front of the supreme court, would be here on our anniversary. for all of you in this in-person audience, online, those of you have been interns and alumni, around of a clause -- around of applause for you. [applause] josh hawley has become a leading voice on every issue facing the u.s.. all of us are conservatives, we

are grateful for the common sense and the depth of analysis that he brings to all of this issue. today has focuses is on china and ukraine enough speech entitled, a time for truth. please join me in welcoming senator josh hawley to the heritage foundation. [applause] sen. hawley: thank you so much. thanks to all of you for being here, it is especially gratifying to be here on the 50th birthday of the heritage foundation. for five decades, heritage has contributed critical ideas at critical times in our country's history and and another critical juncture, i look forward to you the contribution that you are making now and making for 50 years to come. i want to say that i am excited as a former intern, maybe i shouldn't say the year, i was an

intern back in the summer of 2000. time does fly. my time here was tremendous. congratulations to heritage on this 50th birthday. what to tell you about another experience i had in recent years, three years ago, in october. i visited hong kong. it was not a standard ceremonial sort of visit. the state department was not a fan of me visiting at all. they tried to talk me out of it. i said i am going to go no matter what. there we were, in the mists of the major protests in the city, during the fall of october. they promised to the city of hong kong a measure of independence, once the city passed into chinese control, it would be able to keep its unique freedoms. the premise was one country, two systems. those were the days. by the fall of 2019 we saw that that promise that the beijing

government has made was a lie. as soon as that could, the chinese communists party crackdown on hong kong with a national security law that crushed dissent. the message was, xi jinping's would be the only way. i wanted to see what was happening for myself. i took the trip, i arrived there , i had the opportunity to go out onto the streets. i remember my first night in the city, the consulate bade to be a good evening and suggested i might want to remain in the hotel. as soon as the consulate was away, i said, now it's time to hit the streets. we went to where the protests were raging. we saw cars a blazing in the streets, protesters spraying free hong kong on the windows, a scene of chaos.

we saw the riot police facing off with young women and men there to defend and stand for the freedoms of their city. i made friends there. some of them have since gone to prison. some of them are now in exile. i will not forget to that trip because it was there that i was able to see firsthand the nightmare that the communist party offers the world, make no mistake, and the hong kong crackdown, we see the true face of chinese tierney. we may yet see it again in other places around the world, including taiwan. my worry is if we do not change course soon, we may not be able to do anything about it. it is not popular to say that openly, i am not very popular with my colleagues when i do. dozens of lawmakers and

so-called experts and talking heads have claimed to that an invasion of taiwan will not happen. or that if it does we will prevail. if they see that china is afraid to challenge us or won't. these people prefer to tell a familiar and comforting story to become a bedtime story, that winning the cold war allows us to police the world for all time. they want us to believe our military might is infinite. to that american power faces no real constraints. and that we ought to use it to reshape the world. now they want us to believe we can fight an endless proxy war in ukraine and somehow none of this will deter our ability to stop taiwan, china from invading taiwan. or deter our ability to stop china elsewhere. this story of american empire, the story of liberal empire, --

it is told by neoconservatives on the right, and liberal globalists on the left. they make up the umi-party that transcends all administration. it's hard to challenge them. they have gotten good at telling their favorite story. anyone questions them gets labeled as anti-american or putin's puppet. today i thought we would try something different, a little unique for washington. today we could try telling the truth. the truth is, americans have been sold a bill of goods. our current foreign policy is not working. it has not worked for decades. it is not working for our security, it is not working for our economy, it is not working for the american people. it has cost them their jobs,

their towns, their communities could. -- all of that thing so the bad trade deals that we were promised would make all of us richer. instead our industrial base has been hollowed out and good paying jobs that support people in working communities like the one that i grew up in have seen those jobs go overseas. our current foreign policy isn't working according to its own standards. it is falling apart at the seams. what they are doing is patching it together by writing blank checks to other countries. the truth is, we are overcommitted. our elites are deluded by the dream of liberal empire. the uni-party tells us trough -- tough trade-offs that don't exist. it isn't deployed where it should be. it isn't marshaled in the way that we needed to be.

america is going to face the consequent is. china is on the march. we are not prepared to stop them. let me say that again. china is on the march, we are not, at this moment, prepared to stop them. we didn't stop them cheating on trade, stealing our industry, and hong kong, now if china and based taiwan, they would prevail. if china were to invade taiwan today, they would prevail. which is why we are at an inflection point. a moment where we have to make tough decisions. i would submit to you a moment for real change. it is time to adopt a different foreign policy. a nationalist foreign policy. we hear a lot about the rules-based international order.

politicians and other experts invoke it when they want to send a few billions dollars more to other countries. it isn't something kingdom of heaven, it's a form of liberal empire, is founded on the assumption that if we abolish orders and allow capitol to move freely and empower the giant multinational corporations that somehow america will be better off. somehow we will make america more like the world, the world more like america. free minds, free markets. that's what we have been promised. there was never a time when that was a good idea. it is apparent now that it has been disastrous from the start. all the way back in december 2001, we admitted china to the world trade organization. that will go down as one of the greatest -- and gravest

strategic errors committed by a great power the last two centuries. it has been a disaster for this nation. that's not what we were told at the time. they told us this would make everybody richer, that we could offshore jobs we didn't want and import cheap junk without undermining prosperity. they argued this would democratize china. this was somehow going to open up the chinese regime. if we brought them into the global economic world, other horrors would be things of the past. having been in hong kong in fall 2019, that was a catastrophic misjudgment. their claims work catastrophic mistakes. one country, two systems was not china stte first china's first broken promise. they took full examine each --

advantage of the global market, simultaneously shielded its own economy from foreign competition. who paid the price, america did. blue-collar workers in america paid the price. go to jobs that once provided americans with a living wage were siphoned off overseas. the chinese communist party got rich, and the chinese economy boomed. they build to their military on the backs of our middle class. now that military not only massive, but modernize, is poised for a invasion of taiwan. what do our leadership >> >> we spent $1 million every year and your state of missouri, it is over half the people are in property. the climate crisis.

[protester shouting] we are continuing to be more aggressively china, and we are spending more on the military then -- combined. the climate rises was a common threat. sen. hawley: this administration wants use the climate crisis as an excuse. what did our leadership do while all of this was happening? while china was cheating on trade, taking away our jobs? they did the wrong things. while they were prospering, and american towns were withering away, the uni-party set its eyes on the middle east. we heard a lot about making america -- the world safe for

democracy. that project failed too. i failed spectacularly. we invested billions of dollars in -- and lost thousands of american lives while china rose unimpeded. the people who are responsible for those misjudgments are still members of the d.c. establishment in good standing, nobody has ever been held accountable. we are hearing the same siren song again. this time it is about ukraine. if we only send a few more weapons, a few more billion dollars, we will really have a stable international order. maybe we should do more nationbuilding. all ideas that the uni-party is excited about. the wrong idea, at the wrong time. the unibody didn't seem -- the

unit party didn't see it coming. they to have us telling that vetting ukraine is the same thing as deterring china. i'm sure you for this argument, is all over town. if one dictator is allowed to take territory by force in one place, no one's territory is safe anywhere else. these people don't ever seem to be concerned about our territory . let's set that aside for one moment. let's consider this idea that somehow by fighting ukraine, we are actually deterring china and asia. truth is, china's path to glover -- global superpower runs through asia. in order to establish itself as the global power it seeks to be, china must establish -- in asia. we must stop them there. napoleon said, if you want to take vienna, taken vienna. if you want to deter china and

asia, deter them and asia. spending money and ukraine, will somehow stop china's military buildup, is simply -- congress has poured billions into ukraine defenses. at a time where the american people are still dealing with sky high inflation and there is no in the site. -- no end in sight. that's not even the core problem. the core problem is our actions and ukraine are directly affecting our ability to deter our most pressing adversary, that is china in the pacific. the more u.s. resources that we devote to europe, the fewer things we have available to strengthen deterrent in the pacific. for some things heavy armor

units, it might not matter. but it matters for capabilities we need for china to avoid invading taiwan. both ukraine and taiwan require weapons. our industrial basis is already strapped for capacity. that's because we need to draw on many of the same suppliers. we are doing our best to increase production, but it will take years. this means that when we pour our military power intone that comes at a cost. we cannot defend ukraine and stop china in taiwan and see to our own military requirements at the same time. we can't do it all. we shouldn't have to. some of the world's wealthiest nations are our allies in

europe. but we are the ones, not the europeans, who are doing the heavy lifting. you have sent more weapons to ukraine than all of europe has combined. those choices are beginning us in one place, the key place, the pacific, where we require strength. the uni-party's way is a path to failure. china is now position to strike with overwhelming force and sees taiwan. invading taiwan has been their goal for years. he wants control to the pacific. he is determined to cement his place in chinese history. six months ago, before the chinese communist party's --xi said that that the historical wheels of national rejuvenation are rolling forward, and the complete unification of the

motherland must be achieved. i love the brilliance of the socialist and fascist ideologies. he is saying what it is he wants to do. we haven't taken him seriously. after so many failures, if we do not to stop china and asia, nothing else we do against china will matter. what happens if tomorrow, and invasion of taiwan has begun? let's assess our strategic position in the pacific. we have aircraft, but they are concentrated at a small number of airbases. china has invested in weapons and sensors that we undercut our airpower advantage. we have carrier strike groups, but it is not clear how they are going to help us defeat and

invasion beard china has buildup defenses designed to neutralize them early. we have an undersea advantage. but we only have so many submarines, so many weapons to fire from them, so many places to reload. we are at risk, especially our forces in guam. it is not well defended against china's missiles were special operations forces. i haven't even mentioned china's nuclear arsenal which is always looming. our own military architecture and space hasn't it -- is vulnerable and our logistics forces are overstretched. let's assume that the worst happens, china invades and seizes taiwan, and the aisle is lost. what would that mean for us? nothing good.

if china conquers taiwan, xi will view it as a historical victory, a dawn of chinese history. americans will confront a new and terrifying reality. every american will feel it. the price hikes, the supply chain disruptions of the last two years, those will pale in comparison. product shortages will become commonplace. everything from basic medicine to consumer electronics. moreover taiwan would send us into a deep recession with no clear way out since huge swaths of our written economy runs on chinese -- taiwanese semi conductors. we will lose more jobs, the economic consequences are just the start. if china takes taiwan, he will be able to station military forces there. it can use the position as a

springboard as you tame a nation -- intimidation against other countries. china could restrict u.s. trade in the region. block it altogether. maybe they'd allow us in but only on terms favorable to china. china has exploded the global trade system before. imagine if they can do it again and add a new global scale. we witnessed the chinese spy balloon go across the united states. right across my home state of missouri. totally unimpeded. that was the fault of this administration, imagine a world where chinese warships could patrol hawaii's waters. and chinese summaries could stock the california coastline. imagine a world where the army has military bases in central and south america.

imagine where they operate freely in the gulf of mexico. thus the future that we will be facing if we are not able to stop china. it is a dark future, it is a possible future. it is not yet an inevitable future. there is still time to chart a different course, but we have to act and act now. that different course is a truly nationalist foreign policy. a foreign policy in the spirit of alexander hamilton and theodore roosevelt. a nationalist foreign policy would put americans interests first and deterring china from seizing taiwan should be america's top foreign policy priority. our defense spending should be concentrated on deterrence in the pacific. we should stockpile weapons, disburse forces and develop

critical capabilities. we are years behind schedule. strengthening deterrence and the indo specific means scaling back military commence elsewhere. that brings me back to europe. what we need is a new burden sharing arrangement with nato. it's time to tell our nato allies the hard truth which is, they must take first obligation in the defense of ukraine. we should say that to them directly. we should stop trying to send signals, and say to them bluntly, they must take responsibility for the defense of europe themselves. relying on us for our nuclear deterrence and key capabilities, what would that do it would free up american resources for deterring china. i'm for partnerships.

the basis of this burden sharing has sold like this, europeans take the lead in europe, we will take the lead against china. the current policy of the united states pretending it can do everything for the europeans in europe and do everything for the rest of the world in asia, it's fanciful, it can't be sustained. we have to trial -- we have to tell our nato allies the truth, illness they deter russia themselves, if there is a conflict in the pacific, we will have to move our forces from europe to the pacific. we need to be honest with with them. the pacific is the key fear for the u.s.. it's time we told our nato allies that front -- bluntly. number one, we can stop writing blank checks to ukraine and

demand that our european allies step up. we have to make a choice. you crime -- ukraine, china, we can't do both. we should say to our allies, you take first lead for the defense of ukraine and the confrontation with russia. we will do -- we will take the lead in asia. they should know that we will not be able to fully defend them if a conflict with china breaks out. we should reduce our force levels in europe. my colleagues hate it when i say this. we should not be increasing our force levels in europe, we should be reducing it. we should keep cutting until we are supporting nato's defenses with only those capabilities that we don't need to deter china. we should ask our allies to make up the difference.

this is what a real burden sharing arrangement would look like. this is how we safeguard our interests in europe while critically deterring china in asia. the united states should arm taiwan. i'm not unfavorably checks to anybody. i'm not here to tell you that i don't favor like checks to ukraine but i do fear them to taiwan. my view is we have to help taiwan defend themselves. we should be arming and supporting the taiwan's but on the condition that they spend on their own defense, embrace and asymmetric defense strategy, that they go all in on the defense of their island and prepare to defend it. the uni-party is going to hate this. when i first came the descendant i promised the people of my

state that i would tell them the truth. this is the truth. these are the choices that we face. when the truth is difficult and choices are tough, we have to stand in front of the american people and explain what the stakes are and why we should take the choices that we do. that is what is at the heart of national foreign policy it is clear i realism in service of the murky people. changing course won't be easy, it will take sacrifices, it will require difficult choices. that is what we are here to do and what to this our demands. we have to start looking reality in the eye. we have to start making the difficult choices that will allow us to beat the challenges of our day. we have to choose the truth, over the fairytale, over comfort. if we do, there is still time. this country is the strongest country on the face of the earth , we are the best country in the history of the world, we can

prevail. i have every confidence that in this conflict with china, for the future of the world, we will prevail. and above all for our own way of life, we will prevail. but we must make the choice now. to make sure that that possibility becomes reality. inky you for having me. -- thank you for having me. [applause] >> not that this is a surprise, that was a tour de force. there are a lot of things i want to ask you about. we probably have time for just a few questions. i am grateful to speak on behalf of all of heritage, the americans who support our work financially every year, some who supported very strict lee defined nila terry aid for you karen.

-- strictly defined military aid for ukraine. the heritage foundation will stand with you and any member of the senate who wants to fight the uni-party. [applause] dr. roberts: the first question in foreign policy is, what is in the best interest of americans? when we are at the best, we have made mistakes, what's the root cause of this misguided thinking in d.c. given all of the data that you pointed out. the data that is out there, it's so apparent that the greater threat to america is china. there are smart people in d.c., some who might disagree with us, how do we fix that? how do we break that stranglehold that misguided

thinking has on policy? sen. hawley: with the fall of the cold war, we had a moment in american foreign policy that has extended into decades. woodrow wilson was a dedicated internationalist, globalists, on principle. he thought that should make the world safe for democracy. what you saw is after the cold war, a generation of american policymakers said, the moment has now arrived, borders don't matter, american uniqueness doesn't matter, we are going to make all of the world like america. we are going to make america more like the world. it will be a great global integration. the first president bush promoted to this. he talked about open trade, open borders, open minds. it turned out to be a bad idea. for a whole generation, they haven't been able to free

themselves from the grip of this idea. they haven't been able to understand that pursuing it undermines american exceptionalism and strength. i think there is a class element to this. no one in this town looks to talk about it. the current economic order favors a particular class of people. it favors people who have for your college degrees, -- four-year college degrees, the credentials to prosper in this economy. who does it not favor? the people who fight our wars, working class people. people who don't have much of a voice in washington. one reason the uni-party is fixated on this is that they don't feel some of the pain that other americans are bearing. they belong to a narrow class of

folks and are divorced from the rest of america. dr. roberts: i want to ask you a follow-up question about how that dynamic affects what seems to be a rethinking on the political right on foreign policy. you are one of the leaders on that thinking. if you go to 2024, 2030, is that the project of american conservatism to embrace the hard reality of what you described and articulate, and a positive way, where america is still rather strong, but restrained. is that to the object to that some conservatives are talking about when they are calling for working-class conservative it is -- conservatism?

sen. hawley: there's a history for this. for those of us who are conservatives and republicans, there is a history of this. it does not mean isolationism. i'm not an isolationist. i come from a state where our number one industry is agriculture. we want to trade on fair terms that are wood for us. we want to see our industry thrive, manufacturing jobs come back. in our party there is a number of historical parallels for this going back to theodore roosevelt. we were a nationalist party. we were not isolationists. roosevelt was many things, he had an imperialist episode, it was long. we were a nationalist foreign policy party. there is a tradition of that in our movement that we can recover, and we should.

we look at the world and we ask, what is going to make america safe, prosperous, protector the american people? not just the people who do well in the global economy, all the american people. when we do that, when we protect the american dream, that's part of our gift to the world. do i think merck has a role to play in the world? yes, but that begins with being strong and protecting our folks. dr. roberts: in my short time in d.c. i've learned many criticisms about the imperial city, it's the city of false dichotomies. those of you who believe peace through strength, never imagined that it would go above 100 billion.

as if to say that really wanting accountability for the american dollar, recognizing there are greater threats, i'm curious. you have new members in the senate, new house members as well. it's a question about optimism. give us a view into your crystal bar -- crystal ball in terms of d.c. politics. sen. hawley: i think it's partly because it was lincoln who said that in our democracy, what the american people want, if they want it long enough, they get it. that's how it should be, that's what it means. the american people have been trying to say for decades that they rejected the uni-party consensus. there is a reason why donald trump became the presidential

nominee of the republican party in 2016. there's a reason for that. voters in both parties, from different political persuasions, were trying to send establishments a message. they don't like the political consensus. it hasn't worked for them. if you don't believe that, come to my state. you can find towns, like the one i grew up in, that used to have local industry, good paying manufacturing jobs, that are gone now. you can tell them that everybody gains. it's a net positive. all trade is good. admit china to the wto.

that's great. we will benefit from it. the question is who will benefit from it? what we have found is, for most of the emmerich and people, it is not them. -- for most of the american people, it is not them. we are in favor of conserving families, neighborhoods, churches, these platoons that make our society what it is. our economic and foreign-policy and domestic policy are all intertwined. dr. roberts: i can see why you are such a treasured heritage intern. i'm looking at some interns in the audience. last question. we usually get to audience questions, but this is crowd sourced. we are grateful for your time. we always try at heritage to diagnose the problem, and also come up with solutions, but give

audience members an action item. what can the everyday american do to further the great goals that you outlined? sen. hawley: what you can do is tell your member of congress that it's time to change course. i didn't directly answer your question about the future of -- i answer my own question. you can ask any question. i think that because voters want to change, you are seeing more members of congress get elected. the thing to do is make it abundantly clear that we have to change course and can start with ukraine. i voted for aid to ukraine early on. i was in favor, i had no idea we were going to fight a proxy war. here we are now.

we should make it clear the current policy has to stop. we need to get back to the basics. we need to be nationalist. there is nothing wrong with that. dr. roberts: josh hawley senator , thank you for coming. sen. hawley: thank you for having me. [applause] >> be up-to-date the latest in publishing with book tv's podcasts about books. with current nonfiction book releases plus a best seller lists as well as industry news and trends through insider

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