randolph williamsburg. president of your convention. edmund pendleton. caroline county. benjamin harrison. charleston county. richard henry. lee westmoreland. colonel george washington fairfax county. and of course, the gentleman who needs no introduction. mr. patrick of hanover county. ladies and gentlemen, the delegates of. the second virginia convention.

let's get to the main event. we're going to have a good conversation tonight. we have dr. rick moreira, ricardo pereira visiting professor of military history of the u.s. army war college at carlisle barracks, pennsylvania previously a professor of military history at the school of advanced military studies at the us army command and general

staff college at fort kansas. he's also a veteran of the u.s. army. he earned his m.a. and ph.d. from marquette. he's the author of for liberty and the republic, the american citizen, a soldier, 1775 to 1861 and many, many other articles helping us understand in the development of the united states. he's worked on his new book while he was a member of washington fellow on the washington libraries, fellow class of 2016 2017. i remember he would be out there in the reading room working and. i would yell at him faster, write faster. i want book. i've been wanting this book for many, many, many. and so i'm delighted tonight to welcome and let's give him a big warm mount vernon welcome to discuss his new book, feeding washington's army surviving the

valley forge winter 78. please join me in welcoming dr. rick herrera. rick. pertinent to the. thank we very much support c-span being with us tonight to support this, lecture and and that's the pause here to get the proper multiple going on so that they can hear us and you know we've had c-span up at the library for many years and we're delighted always when they're here to extend the reach of the work that we do. so thank you all for your work as and and welcome to c-span

audience will be enjoying this hopefully for years come record era and in talking about feeding washington's army surviving the valley forge winter of 1778. i'm really good it's really good to see you again, rick. it is it's it's been far too long. i'll share earlier that having been a research fellow here at mount vernon, it is it was and remains one of the highlights of my career as a historian, when i came here, i was offered the opportunity homestead, as it were, in one of the carols. i instead to be in the reading room, which can be a little bit noisy as doug's bringing in various people to come and see things. but it's got these six beautiful wooden inspired busts of washington adams, jefferson, franklin, hamilton, madison. and it was as though they, along

with doug, were saying, write faster, get to it. it was a a phenomenal experience just to be here, to be on the grounds to live here at mount vernon for a month and to work in the resource cities and to work on something that was a labor of love i have nothing but great memories of having been there. we need to treat our historians with the same love and reverence we give to our celebrities in this nation. the ridiculous amount of attention the kardashians of the world. rick's going to put out of fashion line soon, i'm sure. but now you say your experience here was one of your favorite times ever. but i know for a fact that you as a reserve officer had an opportunity to do some work. and i was looking at a beautiful map of it's map of new york from the 1770s, from the american

revolutionary war. that's a copy. and you you told me about an expert research experience you had at governors. tell me and tell us of that share. share that anecdote of your research life. oh, it was was great. who here has been a graduate student? yes, many. so how many of you were actually. yeah, exactly. so as a grad student at marquette university, i was doing research for dissertation that that eventually. my first book for liberty in the republic, i was still army reserve officer. i called up the the folks at island which is off the southern tip of manhattan. it's been a fortified position since about 1765. that's right. when i called up, they asked, well, what's your rank? so i'm a captain. so, you know, fairly low in the

in the officer ranks army officer ranks. but this was a coast guard station. they translated captain to the equivalent of an army colonel. so i got a colonels suite of rooms and the bachelor officers quarters. and then when i asked, well, where on my credit card, they said, oh, we're in the process of shutting the base down, so we don't want to handle any cash. so three weeks, i got to stay on governor's island with these gorgeous views of manhattan and it was fantastic. so i was able to research and do all my stuff and as a grad student, save some money. and so you think the american people for that. that's fantastic. thank you all wonderful anecdote. i love to hear it. all right. so let's get into it. feeding washington is army. why did you feel like this book needed to be written? it the book was for historian it

was a dream. it's something important that happened that nobody had really touched upon. and if i can go back to some of the genesis, it started out as a teaching moment. so when left civilian academia 16 and a half odd ago and returned to the army as a civilian, i joined the staff ride team. and so what i was doing was, yeah, so is a staff right now. so let's pretend like i'm a child speaks in me as if i'm a child. what is a staff, right? have you eat your vegetables? you dessert so day as a staff right is is a focus of a battle or a campaign that takes place on the actual ground over which the actions took place. and so what we do is use this is something that the american army developed is has done the world over. i mean is this every every it's done by every branch the us army stole the idea from germans

about 19 six, introduced it and it it flurry ish to died off depending on on wars but it's continued though and so most most sort of an officer training exercise it's actually it's actually part of soldier all ranks all right enlisted enlisted men and women noncommissioned officers officers. but also i've led them folks from usaid, the u.s. so an element of the state department done it for others as well. yeah, they've developed certainly into like a general leadership training. you get business doing staff rides and that sort of thing. but but yeah, it's a unique kind of way. they are. they aren't so the battlefield, the campaign area becomes your classroom so you're walking yorktown you're walking frederick road you're walking the area of the philadelphia. it becomes your classroom but it also becomes a primary document

for you and your students to interrogate. and so you go to the different locations or stands as the terminology is. and you talk about what the actors at that time knew, at that time, and discuss what were their options. because history, we know, is contingent. nothing's inevitable until it finally is. and you have no other options washington discovered during the valley forge encampment. and to try and understand the decision making, the leadership and a host of other things. they're also great for team building exercises. you get people away from the flagpole, people let their hair down, not we have much, at least in my case. and they are able to really build some good bonds. yeah. and so this came out of my building of a philadelphia campaign staff ride and we get to valley forge. yeah. so that's the question. like what and valid. you know, you just that valuable

valley forge is largely it's static or so we think how to answer yes. so there's a general myth or understanding of that. there is. there is. and like all myths, their kernels of truth, of course. how do i interject movement this? then i recalled some work that i'd read by wayne bottle of the valley forge standing at anthony wayne statue by the pennsylvania encampment. how many people have been to valley forge? it's a just described where valley forge is relative to the valley forge about 618 miles north of philadelphia. it's on the schuylkill, it's within easy striking distance of philadelphia. you're george washington, but it's far enough away to be inconvenient if you're a general. sir william, how holding the garrison at philadelphia. it's a compromise as well. it's also an armed encampment and it's something that i introduce or and understand. it is that was the a precursor,

sir, to something that we've all encountered in the news. the forward operating base is something that we've seen in iraq and afghanistan. yeah, that was in the book that you it as a forward operating base more you know some sort of permanent i mean although it you know it's what something like the fourth largest city in north america when washington marches in with it with the main army. how large was this that he took in there? oh, gosh, it's about 12,000. why did he go there? it's because of compromise. and like all compromises, nobody's. and so it's military needs. it keeps the british on notice. the continental army's not about to surrender. this valuable state of pennsylvania right to challenge for it. it's also political and political and military are always together. they say, good. so all right, let's hold that and go back again to there you are leading a staff pride about

the the the campaign you're trying to figure out how to make it dynamic. you get to this place called forge with i mean i think if you ask you know an informed american citizen valley forge they think about well where the army starved and somehow got through the winter. yeah, it's a static story. it is. they're there. they survive. it's the winner. sure. and what's the point of the staff right there we go. there, this is a culminating point, if you will, for this day event. well, how do we how do we interject some movement and it came through the army's need to sustain itself. we know that the army. was suffering through the winter, although it wasn't worst winter. morristown was far worse. you say that previous year, afterwards. but this is still a miserable place to be. the people are living in the of the little ice age. and so that means severe

climactic change, severe weather change. you've freeze fall rain cycles you don't know what the weather's going to hold some some mornings are wonderful other mornings are miserable and you don't whether mother nature's going to bring you so yeah the the winter not very pleasant how do we feed the army and this is something that had been haunting the army from day one when the continental the continental congress adopted the new england militiamen besieging boston on the 14th of june 1775, which, by the way, is the army's birthday. how do we sustain it? how do we feed it? how do we make sure that these soldiers can do what need to do? because of the way that congress had constructed a system out of their fear of power, power vested the military. they built a system that actually hampered the running of it. and were other factors as well.

so there was a lacuna there was the gap. how do i do this? after doing the research i recognize, well there's an article in this knocked an article on the big picture focusing mostly on nathaniel green, who commanded the initial column, and then anthony wayne, who commands the column, goes over in the new jersey. there was still enough material. you know what? there's a there's room for another article. then came one on henry lee and his part in the forging expedition, the grand forge of 1778. you how it goes. if you've got two chapters, you've got the beginnings of, a book. yeah. so here's the book meaning washington's army. well, fantastic. so, all right, let's start from the basics then you have an 18th century army in north america. what do they eat. according to congress's regulations, right. roughly a pound of meat, roughly

a pound of bread, oh, an ounce of butter six ounce of peas or beans a pint of milk, a quart of beer daily and a few a, few other odds and ends. so there's a date time ration that is regulated by the continental congress. what the continental army should be eating for what every soldier should receive officers. however, because their rank, their station, because they often are expected to host junior officers. this is particularly so with the colonels and the generals. that's part of the 18th century way of building the bonds. you and your subordinates, they get extra, but they also have servants are expected. maintain them, but that's what's on paper. the reality markedly different. right? so that's what's on paper. that's what they're they're getting daily. how is this delivered in, you know, in a perfect world on what's the plan, how does this

stuff who's in charge of giving them in a perfect world like the commissary general oversee the purchases and also the distribution of for the armies the commissary generals civilian or military figure is actually originally he is a military officer then a civilian and. so in their various appointees the office and that office gets split up the commissary general for purchase his and then the commissary general for many of these men have militia rank so they're addressed out of courtesy by their ranks right which can sometimes confuse things. what about quartermaster? so don't they exist? what do they do? the quartermaster. quartermaster in european functions, something akin to a modern day chief of staff. so he would oversee the functioning of the secretary but he would also go out or

designate officers, go right ahead of the army, lay out the encampment, hence the quarters designate which brigades or regiments occupy, which quarters. and so they're doing that. but they're also in charge of the physical supply of the army. so things like the transportation oversee food. that's usually not food, but clothing, uniform weapons. and there are subordinate quartermaster beneath the quartermaster general. okay. so there is an apparatus theoretically in place washing, patton's army. what are they doing? 1777 before they're going to have to enter quarters? sure. well, so where where are they? what's been on? sure. let's let's let's back it up to back it up. let's back it up to it. 1770. what's going on 1776. yes, i will never say. yeah. america's declaration of independence yes. washington crossing the delaware

wants them. well, first, though, he's got it. he's got to be chased across the jersey's got going all the way back to this year. it is it is. i mean the continental army. i know i'm not going back to when the earth cooled. so i believe the army has diminished. they've been chased out of new york. and so we get we've had to cross attempt the ten days first first and second trenton we get crossing the delaware woops the germans at trenton cause the biggest cross drawn them again goes around them and run around the tanks princeton then. yeah then we get general howe talks to talking to his brother the british admiral. yes, his plan. his campaign plan is to take the american capital by threatening philadelphia. he hopes to bring washington to battle and win a decisive clash destroy the continental army, destroy the american push for independence. it's a good plan. i like it. it sounds good. it's uncoordinated, though, lord george germain, the colonial secretary in london. the distances preclude anything

like, the sort of control that's needed. so we get john burgoyne, who back on the 17 4th of october, 1777 at saratoga. go upstate new york. back it up to the august british army lands at head of el today, elkton, maryland, just south of it, soldiers need to recover washington meets them at first with the light infantry at the only battle that i know of in delaware at koch's bridge they fall back washington will then meet them on the 11th of september at brandywine and washington's defeated as his washington is defending philadelphia. he's defending philadelphia. i was marching to philadelphia. he has had some he had some there. he loses at brandywine. he does. but the amazing despite the loss there, these flashes of brilliance, nathaniel executes what we would call a giant

l-shaped ambush. so basically letter l and as british troops coming over the hill, he opens fire them with a full division. two brigades of virginians, which draws forces the british backed the armies able to retire in pretty good order the soldiers are actually pretty proud of their performance. the problems are in the higher ranks of the officers they're still learning their business they fall back. we get the battle of payola. anthony wayne embarrassed there by charles gray no flint gray as he gets called later on. the battle of the clouds on today's immaculata college reign out, the soldiers from sides staring at each other because they've got powder. do you want to charge downhill mud now? do you want to charge uphill in? but now they stare at each other. they march no battle. yeah. as four foot 10th. excuse me, october of 1777.

washington ever aggressive. i've got a chance going to attack how try and drive him out of philadelphia. the battle of germantown again problems with the senior commanders, but also washington's penchant some complex plans. still the army at the lower ranks from really the colonel on down acquit themselves. well some of the generals do really well the army has learned how to fight it needs your bias of being at the general staff of command college. no no no the national war college. no no actually i don't know if i can say this on c-span. when i commented to my seminar about the and ghost seminar about the army in the war of 1812. it itself in turds it was such a poorly run all right okay so so so there's really leadership at the top and then there are but to murder anyone but they don't

stop now from getting feel that they don't how holds philadelphia washington though in december the army still wants it he does and he sets up for another battle at whitemarsh fortifies this chain of hills and invites how come out how marches out looks them and how has flashbacks to bunker hill right i can't waste my soldiers lives. he realizes some skirmishing off on house left the american right and the british army retires to fill adelphia. it's there that washington starts to talk to his generals. what do we do next? and again, washington's aggressiveness he's seriously considering waging a winter campaign, but why not look what he done the year before. trenton one more people princeton but they're also more experience this is an army that's been blooded it's got veterans within it. washington still. but he's much better than he was

before. his generals is through a series of counsels of debated and they're talking things like even the value of currency. if we succeed then what if we fail? then what? so really good probing questions and answers. washington rides out to recognize order of the british defenses, but you -- strong. yeah, they know what they're doing. washington decides after talking again to generals writing to the president, the second continental congress, henry laurens as well as the governors of pennsylvania and new jersey. finally, he decides it's going to be valley forge. it's not the best place or ideal place, really, for feeding the army. but in terms of answers to military, political needs, showing that the continental congress exists, buttressing the

waning of pennsylvania's government, defending what he can of southeastern pennsylvania, defending what he can, new jersey, defending he can of delaware and maryland. this is the place that is the answer. yeah. one of the things i think you make really clear here is whatever we think of the tactic no weaknesses or challenge is there, that the strategic choice of valley forge, for the reasons you laid out, are critical? absolutely. the british have essentially captured the capital. they have this supposed oddly new independent nation. they have washington's army doesn't need to be 17 miles away or do they? i think they i think they did in washington recognize that washington, for all his faults, has attacked. and william howard, his superior when it came to that as a strategist.

washington was developing into a first rate strategist. did have some did he have blinders on or fixations? certainly. but he but he understood the nature of the war and what needed to be accomplished. he got the big picture better than perhaps any other general officer in that. i mean, one of the things that becomes clear is that when you think about the environs around philadelphia and how you're going to ultimately get into this, how you provision army. there's there's a lot of people who aren't really fans of the cause in that region. there are actually a lot of people who aren't fans of, anybody's cause and both armies refer to them as the disaffected. these are people who just want to be left alone and who can blame them. do want an army marching near? you think. think of an army in the 18th century. think of an army today. it's a tremendous of destruction. well, let's think about the 18th century.

in the 18th century, you're a farmer. you've just put up new fences. guess they're gone. they're going into firewood in your orchards, the pick clean, your livestock. they're now filling the bellies of hungry soldiers. these engines of destruction, even if they're your side, you really don't want them near you. but the army, though, because of people who don't support the cause, people who are to it, people who just want to be left alone by both armies and, other factors. the continental army at valley forge was starving and amidst a land of plenty. so here we are at 1778. you've got a british in philadelphia. you've washington's army and valley forge. how how big are these armies? how many men has got roughly 20, 30,000 soldiers? how is 20 to 30000 people? yes and what's the population of philadelphia?

oh, gosh. before how you know that number. like 15 to 17000. it's not he's doubled the size of this city. he has although a number of people have left the city. yes. yeah. so then washington, the army is roughly what. oh he marches in with between 10 to 12000. he's got about 10,000 there though. okay. so how much bigger how much food does it take to feed an army of thousand men? literally tons. the estimate is that it took something like a third of a ton of food to feed a single soldier over the course of a year. yeah, so that's quite a bit. so where is he now? getting his food? how is getting most his food shipped over from and ireland? he'd hoped originally and indeed most british ministers and senior officers had believed they'd be able to subsist. the army off the countryside. they didn't really recognize.

the nature of the revolution. they didn't recognize loyalties and much more so. they too suffered, if you will. so they're getting most of their prepared provisions salt, beef salt, pork. hard, hard baked biscuit, most that coming from depots in england, in ireland. but they're also going out. and in fact, for after whitemarsh the standoff in of 1777 hell's army spends most of its time foraging so both armies competing for foodstuffs food but even firewood forage for animals those become the contested grounds you will the contested stuff of war if i can get it before my enemy does all the better for me and it hurts him. yeah so the book plays out as this drama in which these two armies are sort of competing, this ever shrinking availability

of food in this region. and so this marching into valley forge and what, february of 1778? well, it's december, december 20th of 1770, 70 marches in. okay, they're marching in. how are their provisions as they're marching and will they i mean, what do they know about how long it will last them. what do they have there's one there's one incident where barrels were opened up when the soldiers arrived in camp and. a couple of accounts that i've got in the book, some inspectors, some captains from the massachusetts line looked at the food for their soldiers, declared unfit to eat the beef, spoiled in a lot of cases, contractors who were hauling these barrels of beef and each wagon could hold a four horse wagon pull about a ton of goods. so maybe eight barrels. many of the contract buyers

would actually siphon liquid off the brine that kept the food preserved to lighten the loads, make their jobs. sometimes the contractors would simply dump the barrels over the side. no ability to control their behavior because. these are civilians. they're not subject to military discipline. and so the soldiers suffer, so they don't have enough food to last the winter. everybody knows this. now what are the consequences? they run out of food. what happens? wash, as washington puts it, you know this this is the fatal crisis. if my soldiers are not fed and there are accounts albert jones waldo for surging in the connecticut line writes that soldiers would out at officers no food no food no meat no meat no soldier threatening the their officers feed us as you promised or.

you're not going to have an army. you're talking about mutinies. you're talking about the army disbanding entirely. yeah, these these are americans, actually. these are citizens who've signed on for a short term and they're doing what citizens do. they're protesting the fact that the congress and the army have not held up their parts, the enlistment contracts, they haven't forgotten that they're citizens. first, the soldiers stuff is what i do for just a few years. i'm going back home. so can't get rid of the citizen, but they are they're suffering because of this. if the army's not fed washington, we either have to go further west into the country, perhaps to york, perhaps redding, where we can feed the army more easily. however, we surrender control this sends the wrong political message. this allows the british to expand their control or the soldiers may desert and we no longer have an army. so that's the strategic choice there you want to be close to

philadelphia. you want to continue to assert fiction that this is a country, a new country, a new nation that is defending its territory and not just abandon all regions to the british. absolutely. the army was the armed embodiment of the american in revolution. yeah. okay. so so the book describes, you know, how they deal with it. so i don't know. i don't know if we want to go into grody to tell effort by effort. but. it's not a passive effort. they're not sitting there waiting congress to send food or food. what are they what do they have to do ultimately? congress as you know, votes washington near dictatorial powers. but washington ever cognizant of people's rights. the need to gain the people's acquiescence because is a

people's war does not want to violate property rights. yeah so yeah so they're not just going to go out and start stealing food from everybody can fine but to give a couple of examples when nathaniel green who no offense to hamilton fans really was washington's right hand man. when he leads out main column from from the encampment, he's doing what washington ordered at first, giving receipts to people who's whose goods impressed go to camps you will pay you back in and donated dollars. we recognize that they're not worth much but it's a little something green though early on some of his men capture couple of farmers trying to bring goods in the british. it's february. the weather's cold, green have none of this orders that these men be stripped of the waists. the risk secured each one gets 100 lashes. he wants to send a message, thou

shalt not supply the british. so as it moves on the next few days, people are starting to hide their goods. green although a quaker understands the hard hand of war, he says, no more. instead said he starts to, have his men take some farmers hostage. but his will also then go out. ferret goods out. and if have to do this, he writes. washington nobody's getting anything i hear their cries and like pharaoh, i harden my heart so green bringing the hard hand of war to pennsylvania's disaffected. in another case we see it's so green's a critical figure. and of course of his people. anthony wayne shaw is also part this grand forge. he is he is when he decides early on initially a colonel stewart was supposed to go across the delaware instead

green realizes is too important need to send wayne wayne contrary to his nickname matt anthony is anything but wayne's aggressive. he's thoughtful. he's a good battlefield commander. despite payola, wayne leads very small brigade. boy, am i pumping that up by calling it brigade. it's only about 300 guys. they cross the delaware with the help of john berry commands what remains of the continental and says to berry and i think that every man a 14 year old boy in his heart give us a box of matches and tell us set fire to something. we're on it. yeah, very like burns. all that. exactly. and that's of it. the new jersey shore rice garnet and distract the war and all the fodder on the jersey shore burn all exactly and berry does great work with that wayne works his way through and he works really well with new jersey militia

colonel ellis and wayne develops great networks. in fact. yeah, if i could about this book is the cast of characters is is really not the ones we usually think about. no and it's and while the book i use i'm talking about logistics now it's about the maturation of washington general but also the development of a command team the and trust that goes up down but also a lot of trust. how important is trust in leadership situations in the american army trust is key. it was key then. it's key now. subordinates have got to trust their superiors. superiors have got to trust their subordinates. the boss cannot at every place, at every time. washington that that's why he select screen to do this and green understands as we would today his left and right limits you know go forth do what you

need to do green keep some informed of all those movements. washington has no problems that anthony wayne does the same once he's across the river. writes back to washington, keeping him posted of what's going. yeah, and you and you also he does it with light horse harry. oh, yeah. look, captain lee. lee is. lee is in my estimation, was in my estimate. that is in estimation probably the light cavalry officer of the war now there are others who are really fine william washington, george carlin, james cosmo in the south. i'm sure you've got you've also got john graves simcoe who i'm sorry fans of kennedy british he is he's not homicidal maniac but he's. come on. what do you mean? what are we doing? i'm trying to give the other side. what other side? do attention. but he. he, he is so much an officer.

yeah, he does is he is young when he's he's, he's only about 25. yeah. but you know, washington's known him and his for years. they've got that close connection so in washington in in one case salutes and orders to the army has my dear for washington to be that familiar with a mere captain speaks volumes about the nature of their relationship. well one of the things that struck me is so surprising about lee as a captain. he's dealing with, you know generals in the militia and and his orders to to make them do what he wants them to. but he does it in such a way that they don't resent him. and he's able somehow also to the population and the civilian don't resent me very much somehow has that washington magic. he's lee although he's something of a yeah is he was polished at

his education at princeton his upbringing in tidewater virginia he understood how to work with elites he also had of course, writing to them, letting letting folks like general smallwood, he commands the the maryland division in wilmington. lee is coming down. he's doing the following for the army. please give him all your assistance. and they understand that this. this this struggle is not about me as smallwood or whomever. it's about them. it's about other people. therefore it's incumbent upon me to give captain lee as much assistance as i possibly can and. they do? yeah. extraordinary way you bring out these stories that are pretty much unknown today. the. there's also places that take on a renewed significance.

the head of elk o head head head anybody familiar with where we're talking about when i say the head of elk or elkton, maryland, it paints a picture. sure. you've got your it's it's basically. sum of the headwaters, if you will, of the chesapeake bay. it's sits on a timmins, a spit of land in maryland. it had been a shipbuilding center, but also a transport center. the hollings were sort of like in between there's philadelphia and there's both. moor and there's that l about. it's of in the middle, right near wilmington. but you know where that big delmarva comes down? it kind of it's again right in the middle of that. it is. and it's on top of the bay roads, rivers. so you've got transportation and you've also got only about 40 miles from from. right. it's so it's as the crow it's a it's a short transit of for a fully loaded wagon about four

days. and you can sail a naval ship kind of right into the you can get shallow draft ships up to that up to that area. yes, absolutely. and it's a critical sort of supply point for all this foodstuff. it's one of the key magazine arms supply depots in easier terminology throughout the war. why don't the british just seize it they did but why don't they stay there they don't have enough soldiers how can only disperse so much combat power across the region. why why can't he put hundred people there the hessians or somebody think about what had happened a couple of years before think about what had happened to trenton and that was an entire brigade, some 1500. so because that there's this sense that the need to keep their armies concentrate and concentrate. absolutely so they're not trying to occupy the countryside. they realize that, in fact, when

howard was sending out his expeditions while he's at philadelphia it's generally in strength. so at least to three battalions. so several hundred a couple of thousand souls, like 500 men at chop would sometimes they're sending out upwards of half the army. why? because you've got soldiers who are actually doing the cutting, who are actually going out gathering visiting farms. but they have a covering force. they're functioning as an occupying force, but they're not as a governing force. they don't play that role. they the exercise of british power does not extend beyond the neck of the philadelphia peninsula. yeah. i mean you do a very job. i mean, you're drawing on work good john sky and others about the role of the us continental and with the associated militias on on sort of the maintenance of political power which is one of the great weaknesses of the british situation.

it was and it's kind of counterintuitive. but at one end, one of the things the british had suffered from, one of the many things excuse me, was the poor knowledge of the population. they'd been getting reports. 1774, even earlier on about large numbers of loyalists. all you need to do is show the king's standard. the people will rise in defense of his majesty. they they get there and where are the people? i'm looking. i don't think i see you. and so in it's because the loyalist populations were dispersed in part because the rebel militia served as a police force to maintain loyal party or at least submission to the american government's a variety of things they could never the

loyalists much beyond the duration of the occupation of an area by british regulars. it's really astonishing because it goes from being a british colony to all of a sudden the british army is a foreign army and its own place. absolutely and and there you see you officers and and others about the british mohammedan and you know, there's this unnatural war. well, look, it's an incredible book, an examination how that army washing army survives and significance let's go ahead and open up to some questions from the audience. we can maybe out a few more of our incredible lessons have to learn here. but what is you know as you is moving the microphone around and we'll well want you to wait because we have our good friends at c-span. wait the mic. but as that might as i'm seeing

some hands hopefully pop up here. what was your take away about our george washing tune? i mean, what did he show to you as you study this this grand, this effort to keep the army alive at valley forge? what is the lesson would tell people on that staff ride that you came to understand they're there any number of things but i think for me the key takeaway was washington's ability to build a great command team through trust. he was able to earn you because you've got all the stars doesn't mean that people are going to trust you or respect you. washington understood that he had to earn their trust and their respect, and it was paid back and it was paid back in bushel. falls all right. well let's get some questions

here. i've got to somebody in the back here. yes, yes, ma'am. i just had a feeling of his command so i wanted to know what we're interested in lessons and we are currently working something for the first forwarding base in the pacific in world war two. so i wanted to know to what degree something like this in the 18th century is useful as a tool, even for today for current logistics issues across the services, trade. sure. and i will confess that i've known dr. haley since was a graduate student, and it's always a delight to see someone like me, like this doing so well. but you know, the for the for the campaigns those were about basing the only reason that the army the marine corps existed in war two in the pacific was to

land sea islands that could then be turned airfields, port facilities, logistical hubs for the american advance on japan. they were there secure ports, airfields or supply posts. so the navy could continue its advance so that aircraft could continue. it could continue their advance upon japan hence the significance of basing head of elk. yeah so the head of elk story that he's talking about i mean they create that magazine but also i think valley forge yourself you think of as a forward operating it was it's not like some they just hang up it really is sending out missions to secure particular effects. oh absolutely i mean valley forge was the home an active field army doing the things that soldiers then and soldiers today would recognize.

ise washington had outposts just six miles or so away. he had cavalry screens six or so miles away, all with the intention of giving him warning, ferreting out information about his enemy, but also launching patrol cells against his enemy. this is the home of an active army doing this stuff that soldiers recognized then and would recognize over two centuries later, he right here. so it was a continental army? yes, sir. each of the confirms new states had regiments within this army and they had responsibilities under the way the country was governed to provide pay and, uniforms and supplies. how far afield did washington's quartermaster actually have to go to get stuff? did they stuff from georgia, the carolinas, and bring it up? how good could the there's i

recall reading a long time ago perhaps the best supplied troops were those from connecticut. the worst supplied from north carolina. the states were responsible. and one of the things that you see in washington's letters is he would at times take a senior officer from some state line. so the lieutenant colonel of the seventh maryland, whose name is escaping now, please forgive me. so he washington writes to the governor writes this lieutenant colonel, i need you to go down to maryland, talk to your governor, and get supplies. you need to help me clothe your maryland. but washington also has authority from pennsylvania, to improve blankets, shoes, leather, wool linen, whatever he needs to supply the army at the same time because we want to

make things more complex because we have to make things more complex. he's also competing with agents from the from the commonwealth of pennsylvania and purchasing agents from the commissariat of the continental army and the quartermaster office of the continental army. and then each state has its own purchasing agents and they are trying to all of these things, no centralized, efficient. it's a real challenge. one of the thing i think, rick, also points out is there's a complete breakdown in the new england purchasing that happens for reasons that have nothing to do with what's actually going on. it's to do with politics. and so the army is particularly unprepared and country's unprepared to supply them at the time they're marching into forge. absolutely. so, yeah, should be a lot of cattle coming from new england for this army, which where there's plenty of cattle that

all breaks down because. the person in charge of it resign. and then there was all sorts of and corruption and so you're dealing with all challenges in the in the face of a war and also the fact that that purchasing agents were required to give something like $5,000 bond and there, that's a problem, right? there's no money. nobody the money's not worth anything. and if you're a purchasing agent. it's all in your own credit. and you can end up in jail if you can't pay everybody for all stuff. sure. and you're hoping that congress will pay you exactly what you put out. yeah, it's freedom. that freedom ain't free. all right. we had a question. the back, it's actually kind an exhibit. and then i see one over here and then one here. steven go ahead. sorry. kind of extension of the quartermaster. and then where we're going with purchasing agents. i'm actually in contracting for the air force currently and just i was not picking on you, by the way. so great to hear be part of it.

and here's what do we do we see the the early beginnings of seeing weaknesses in, the way we equip and feed our troops, you know, kind of the antecedent of what our interesting to put it mildly, acquisition system is today and anything related contracting of you know, we don't pay above these prices or know the the rules of doing business on behalf of general washington right there congress had set forth prices you know here are the maximum amounts washington would also also held at least a couple times, for lack of a better term, a market at valley forge urging farmers. come in, bring your goods here. the prices we're offering and so yeah you know they will offer only so much they can only afford so much one of the problems with continental script so worthless is that the congress had no taxing power and so all this money going out and

nobody taxing it, none of the states willing to tax to, bring the money in and make it dearer it actually have some value perhaps and so the inflationary pressures just to the moon well when you're competing with another army which has species playing in gold got gold. silver. yeah. so you're in the same region competing with this other army to purchase this. and if you're if you're a farmer, you've got to look out for your family. okay so i kind of like what the americans are saying, but redcoats have actually got cold hard cash and there's a lot of quakers you can't trust no offense without the friends. there's a question over here, here is about two things. first, can you paint a picture of what it looked like when they all came back to camp, you know, with, you know, was it like a cattle herd, you know, and wagons full of grain and, things that they found and then is there any evidence that part of

the sort of dysfunctionality that you mentioned was part of the cabal part of the the effort to take down washington and to make him look bad? yeah, the some of the supplies flowed in it really in dribs and drabs. it's a technical term. the but you would you would get grain for example hey we've got x number of cattle. i have not been able to come across grains records. in fact, the only records i've been able to come across list who visited what am impressed what were light horse hairy leaves which are held at the gloucester county historical society in new jersey in the hollingsworth papers oh no, not hollingsworth. forgive i had a i lost that one but so they're coming in at different rates and so there's no real knowledge as to when

wagons going to come in as to when cattle or sheep or swine will be driven in. it just depends as far as the the cabal, nothing really there, although washington was certainly doing his best to one support his opponents to secure his own position, and three, enable the army to continue its fight. well, a great. right, right. here's another thanks from downright so beans go hand in hand with bullets. so just out of curious and if you can comment, did you find anything that talks about like the risk calculus or ammunition while you're conducting an active when food's already a problem and you're conducting an active did you come across anything talking about how they did like we engagement procedure

how they manage their ammunition stockpiles or include of that in their foraging you know and the lieutenant colonel who the as far as are we that means rules of engagement there's nothing that i came across regarding that and it may be it was because i was so focused on the army feeding itself and going through that that i may have looked they may have looked past that. that's said, i know that there was enough ammunition, certainly at least with nathaniel green's foraging column, to engage in a firefight with on speakers who held a readout that today beneath the 30th street train station in philadelphia. you know, got the sense that there were instructions basically here not to not to notify. yeah. don't bring on a fight to keep

army alive. i mean, don't don't take unnecessary risks. and also, how do you engage with civilians. right. i mean, this you're really they're really trying washington's instructions are really trying to treat everybody very civilly. obviously, there's going to be a lot of challenges there, particularly with the disinfected. oh, absolutely. but it's very different from the british, which just seem they're just to take what they want. the brit, the british would would seize it. and then you see accounts of so washington working under this conceit and he's asking his officers to work out of the conceit that we are the governing power of the country and these are citizens, he says. the british are sort of like we're just going to supply the army and the british conceit. washington however, understands this was a struggle for people's affections and loyalty. the hearts and minds absolutely at the top. let's get to like us. let's have people, us actively

at the the worst. they actively oppose us. they dislike us. no, i'll take the middle ground. they don't hate us. they don't love they just leave us alone. so trying not to people is the the the lowest thing that his his soldiers can do about brutality deserters that are captured deserters are another matter. you know that's they these are men who have signed for a contract you violated. you're now subject to army discipline. he welcome to the lash we have a question and then there's one in front. we please. civil war historian. ken brown writes terrific accounts recently. one was titled leaves from gettysburg and at gettysburg and

in those accounts he discuss is the nutritional needs and needs of 60,000 horses and 40,000 mules. and apparently at that time during the war, that war, the government had specific required ments for these nutritional needs of the horses. they required roughly £14 of oats a day and £14 of grains a day, and, you know, to keep these horses in some form a condition to perform pulling wagons and caissons and so forth. did washington implement anything for for for the animals for horses and so forth. yeah. were there were actually several books published on, for example, management of the light cavalry, one that comes to mind is by an author named hind h i indy. but there were also various books on animal husbandry.

here's what you should feed cattle or sheep. swine at this time of year. his feed them when you're getting them fattened for slaughter. here's what horses need to eat and so they've got all they do have this knowledge plus keep in mind this is this is an agricultural society and so understanding animals needs i don't want to second hand but was something that rather familiar for most. one of the things though that washington officers aren't a bunch of knickerbockers they're farmers. i mean, they know they know a horse and they do. they do. but orders that that superfluous horses be sent away from camp. so it's it's basically senior officers who have horses. they need to be mounted. they're enough horses for some of the not enough certainly for the very few wagons exist the

cavalry is was dispersed so that could feed off of parts new jersey parts of pennsylvania and so that lessened the burden on the main army supplying the livestock. reading the book, i mean, you realize how distant we are from the world and the the basic knowledge that these people had of how to manage animals how to feed animals how to move animals, how to feed for animals or which animals you don't want to which ones you do want to bring. i mean, it's really a very humbling reading this and you're like, oh yeah, i mean, they're sending hundreds in, hundreds and hundreds of head of cattle into the camp and it's like a to feed him for a day, you know. sure. and what what what are we doing? i mean, where are these animals coming from? and and they're all over the place. and if and if this is livestock that's meant to feed the army, you don't want it to move too fast too far because.

what is it? do they lose weight? it's going at no good to the soldiers who are going to eat them. yeah, yeah, exactly. great question. here. yes, sir. bottom line. bottom line question is to what degree did the need for foraging impair the fighting ability of army? the need to sustain washington's army? but also, how is army drove? the nature of the combat actions that took place during the occupation of philadelphia. how spent how soldiers spent most of their time. british rule of thumb was to have six months of supply on hand at all times. they're only a couple of times during the eight years of this war that that ever took place. both armies spent much of their time during this winter, searching for food to feed themselves. that, however, was an act of war

against the by seizing food and forage and denying it to my enemy. i therefore wage war against him in a different fashion. i don't have to line up and exchange volleys with my 69 caliber charleville or my 75 caliber brown bears. instead, i can deny him the stuff to fill soldiers bellies if. i was a canadian and i'm reading this book. i'm like, why don't you just attack washington valley forge there's nobody there's no fighting generals there anymore. half the people are out foraging in the countryside. go attack them. absolutely. and it's a great several reasons. one, how has got most of the british army in america, most of britain's regulars were in america. he's got to keep them there, got to keep them alive.

valley forge was an armed camp, fortifications guarding all the major road approaches into camp redoubts. in other words, forts scattered throughout the encampment. mountjoy which runs north to south against parade ground and trench fronts built on it. what washington has got, thanks to french engineers in particular the general dupont. i forgive my pronunciation and terrible was a defense in depth there are no trees to obscure the fields of fire all of their fields of fire in other words shooting at the enemy are interlock and creating kill zones very modern sounding it goes way back washington's got all this how recognizes i can't risk my soldiers lives a fruitless mission. i remember bunker hill i'm not

about to do it again yeah the loss of one british soldier is a big, big deal. it is easy to be found again. question over here was being used a medical measures back. they were in valley forge. i'm sorry you have to speak. it was food used as medical back in valley forge. i mean, was there since there was a lack of food, you know was there a higher mortality rates within the oh yeah. i don't i don't know the mortality rate because of lack of food know we we do have of course the the the mustard rolls and the count of soldiers who were there. i can tell you, though, something about some of the food that was brought out at one point, soldiers in smallwood's command and delaware slaughtering fresh cattle. the cattle were thrown. the carcasses were thrown into the delaware river because

apparently the cattle were dying on the horse. it seems that they suffered from rinderpest and they were essentially almost tempted to call them zombies these cattle were had heartbeats. they were dying and there was nothing healthy about them. so the those were that soldiers did not have any other questions thoughts concerns. well i think this has been an extraordinary. oh, i see. one more. let's have one more question here and then we'll wrap up. is on the other side of the show here. okay. this is going to be a good one. just at the beginning, you talked a lot about how valley forge was not an ideal location, that that was a compromise in

what would have been the ideal location would have been if political needs. and what you were put aside or what have you, were you more than the preference for being in camps? you can't put aside political needs and it all war is. if war is a political instrument by the state so can't even think about that there's no such thing as pure military devoid of politics politics. it depends on what you want and what washington wanted. if it was simply sustain the army falling closer to redding or york, further away from the british would have made his life much easier, but there would have been the problem with surrendering that area british control and sending the wrong message to the american people. sending the wrong message to the british people and to the army.

it's the best bad of all the choices available and i think it was the right so why do you think, rick, that valley still plays such a role in americans memory? yeah, the american revolution itself, even though winters in morristown were in some ways harsher, more challenging. what is it about valley forge? you think that's captured the imagination. one? of course, washington's there. it happens during what seems to be the climactic year of the war. 1777. here you've a british army advancing southward canada under john burgoyne howe's army advancing and then north against philadelphia the american capital is captured. washington is defeated at nearly turn in the campaign.

it's it says a lot to americans the winter although not as harsh as we discuss at morristown still a harsh one but its proximity to philadelphia and all of these of events going on really together to make it into the mythic thing that we know. but as with all myths with their kernel of truth and there's so more to be learned than just by ennobling these soldiers, this this greek chorus of suffering well, the supply corps of the army should love this. it's all about it definitely shows how supply wins wars and and it's critical and really, rick, you give it an incredible to our understanding of the american revolutionary war and george washington's as a leader. i encourage everybody to get the book. i'll say that i read most of the

book. i also listened to quite a bit of it on audio guide. the sad thing about your audio version is it's not you narrating it with. this incredible voice you have this great bass baritone, rick voice, so that's something we can ask is future models or might my editor for it but i mean listen to that you know that's what i was looking forward to. and i got some, you know, poindexter and the thing so everybody's got to buy a rick will be here afterward to sign them you'll stay here all night till the suns every book and every book every friend and of course all the proceeds go to support the education mission here in mt. vernon. thank you to c-span for being here tonight. thank you all for being here. let's give rick a big round of applause. rick guerrero, wonderful stuff. right. thank