>> this is an hour and 20

minutes. >> the hearing will come to order. we convene today to discuss a topic of the utmost importance to the aging community. fighting frauds and scams targeting seniors. while these predatory schemes have existed for decades. we know the pandemic is only exacerbated this issue. as fraudsters preyed on a fear

and uncertainty surrounding the virus. federal agencies state governments and advocates all warn of con artists who will do among the following. they'll pose as federal and state agencies to steal benefits. they will falsely -- falsify i should say romantic relationship to gain a seniors trust. by way of a third example, petal fake health insurance in carers for the virus. scammers are also using new payment methods making losses difficult to trace. the federal trade commission reports that gift cards are the main payment method used by scammers to request and steal money from older adults. in 2021, 27% of adults 16 older who lost money paid a scam or using a gift card or a

reloadable card. period of pure payment apps like zelle, venmo, cashup and paypal are also increasingly used by scammers. today, are really a cost again from pittsburgh pennsylvania will share her experience with a peer to peer payment scam. miss costa gantz story is all too common. scammers request payments from seniors by way of these apps. have increased exponentially. from 2% in 2017 to 10% in 2021. that's why i recently -- urging the agency to move forward with guidance. guidance to protect older adults from con artist using these apps. i'd like to thank members of the committee who have joined the letter. senator blumenthal, senator

warren, senator gillibrand. strong guidance and enforcement are critical. as is education and preventing education on preventing an responding to the scams. i'm also proud that my stop senior scam act was signed into law in march of this year. thanks to senator moran and senator kelly and ranking member scott for working alongside me and others to pass this important legislation. thank you, member scott, for that work. this law creates a senior scams advisory council to ensure that banks and other businesses have both the information and the tools they need to train employees to identify and respond to scams. we are grateful to the federal trade commission for its work to lead this effort. and i'm pleased to this new council will hold its first convening one week from today.

finally, ranking member scott and i are releasing our 2022 fraud book. here it is. all hold up both versions. in english and in spanish. we're releasing this as many of you know. we've done this on an annual basis. this is the 2022 book which arms older adults with the information that they need to protect themselves from scammers. this new and improved fraud book is available today in both english and spanish. the fraud book highlights the ten most common scams. reported to the committees fraud which is staff monday through friday. 90 am to 5 am eastern time. seniors in their loved ones can seek assistance with reporting fraud and getting connected to resources. the frauds hotline toll free number is 1855303.

nine for 70. well read that again. 18 553039470. i am proud of the committee's bipartisan leadership on this issue. but we know that we have a lot more work to do. we have a sacred duty to protect seniors and their families against these scammers, these criminals. i look forward to continuing to work together on this. i will now turn to ranking member scott for his opening statement. >> thank, you chairman casey. thank you for working in a bipartisan fasten on some of the issues that impact our seniors across the country. the one thing about this committee that i think all americans can celebrate is the fact that this is a bipartisan effort that our seniors every step of the way. we need more bipartisan in congress unquestioned. thank you for your leadership. i do think it's important to once again reinforce the

hotline. this is the tenth anniversary of the aging committee skyline. fraud hotline. the number again as sherman casey has that a couple of times is eight 553039470. so important for our senior snow there is help out there. one of the easiest ways for our seniors to find help is to call the hotline when necessary. seniors often live alone. or are isolated. loved ones and vulnerable people aren't out there for them. i would say that when you think about the scams, the devastating effect it has on people with fixed incomes is undeniable and it's really hard to replace income when you're on a fixed income. on average, seniors lose about $34,200 for every instance of a scam or fraud. in 2021, according to the ftc,

scammers stole one billion dollars from our seniors. a billion dollars. in 2021 alone in south carolina -- communities lost 48 point $4 million to scams and frauds. the consequences to this scam, fraudsters, our many for our seniors. including losing purchasing power. trying to maintain good credit. affording the cost of their homes. losing sleep. it is an absolute catastrophic experience when one experiences a scam or a fraud. scams also have unseen consequences leaving seniors depressed, embarrassed and feeling betrayed. for example, joe saxton, a navy veteran form south carolina

last year. she received a call from two scammers impersonating law enforcement. they told her that several people in texas had stolen her social security number and opened up checking accounts. in order for her to avoid the ramifications of law enforcement, she had to send them $22,000 in cash. remember that this all happened over a single day. the sense of urgency and the pressure placed on these seniors to make fast decisions that have financial consequences that are devastating happened so quickly. under this immense pressure, joe sent two packages of cash. one to multiple -- baltimore in maryland, the other one in little rock, arkansas. these people made her feel as though she had no other choice. the skin at only put joe in

tremendous financial loss but also caused her to withdraw from family and friends. although frauds like the ones will discuss they are so common. each survivors story is unique on how it affects their lives. as the chairman said we have our 2022 bipartisan fraud book both in spanish and english. i didn't see that it was the most reported fraud to the committee's fraud hotline. further, this year's front book provide confirmation on how to protect yourself. according to the ftc, identity theft was the number one scam in south carolina in 2021 with 17,642 cases. one in four identity that victims reported -- sleep problems, increasing's

i.t., depression -- reported scam. it's a 1600% increase in reported scams. unbelievable. in 2000 -- ftc reported 4.9 million scams and in 2021, that number was 5.7 million. an 18% increase in the number. i am thrilled that the council established by this act -- the chairman casey spoke about earlier. the stock senior scams act. helps our seniors. next week, we'll see the first hearing. i look forward to hearing for witnesses today. thank, you mister chairman. i yield back. >> thank you, ranking member scott. before i move to -- we'll have introductions of our

witnesses. i want to acknowledge members who are here. already, senator collins, former chair this committee. and has been part of the effort of producing and publicizing fraud books in the past. we are grateful for her. leadership. senator blumenthal is here. from the state of connecticut as well senator scott from florida. will move to our witnesses. our first witness is doctor marti deliema, doctor deliema is an associate professor at the university of minnesota school of social work. she's an interdisciplinary gerontologist with a specialization in financial victimization through fraud and scams. doctor deliema has collaborate with a variety of financial institutions. aging organizations and federal agencies like the federal trade commission. doctor, welcome. our second witness is nancy

pham-klinger. nancy is a senior adult protective services specialist. for the san diego county, for san diego county in california. she is dedicated her career to advocating for older adults. safeguarding their finances. and ensuring their safety. in 2021, she received the chief investigators commendation award from the san diego district attorneys bureau of investigations. for her efforts and recovering $75,000 for seniors in her community. our third witness is a pennsylvanian. aurelia costigan. born and raised in pittsburgh pennsylvania which isn't allegany county. formerly a school bus driver and health care worker, miss costa ghana is now retired. she is has two daughters. three grandchildren and two great grandchildren. she will share her experience today with a scammer who

impersonated her bank and the step she took to respond to the scam. a really, our great for your here with us. now on to ranking member scott introduce our fourth and final witness. >> thank you mister chairman. it's a pleasure introduce a fellow south carolinian. mrs. polly fehler. it is my pleasure to talk about mrs. fehler. she resides in seneca south carolina for the last 32 years. she is a retired nurse. holding a masters in nursing and a veteran of the air force. thank you for your service, ma'am. she's also a member of st. mark 's united methodist church. serving her community as a vessel of god's love. her most important job, however, is being a loving grandmother to five grandkids. ranging from the ages of 5 to 26 years old. i hear being a grandmother is better than being a mother so i hear that rumor all the time. your son, tim, says i'm not sure that's true.

april 2021, scammers conned their way into mrs. baylor's computer and online banking which resulted in the loss of $20,000. this crime hit misses fehler particularly hard both financially and emotionally. mrs. fehler's testimony today is about her personal experience being a survivor of these scams. i want to thank, you ma'am, for being willing to share your story. it does take courage to step forward into the light and help other folks avoid situations like the one you found yourself in. i'm so proud that you are willing to have other folks through your story. thank you so much for your willingness to be here today. god bless you. >> thank you, ranking member scott. well said. introducing one of our witnesses. we'll begin our testimony now. doctor deliema, you may begin. >> good morning. thank you chairman casey,

ranking member scott and members of the committee. my name is dr. marti deliema. i've been assisted professor at the university of minnesota school of social work. i conducted research on consumer fraud and strategies to safeguard american's financial security. you invited me today to describe current trends in consumer scams affecting older adults. we can use consumer complaint data compiled by the federal trade commission to explore these trends. government impostor scams have been in the top five most reported categories of fraud affecting older adults for multiple years in a row. but the government agency being impersonated has changed over time. the irs, essay, fbi, cms and so on. the challenge is to predict which agencies close the perpetrators are going to try on next. and to create consumer education campaigns that are robust to these changes. throughout the pandemic,

business impersonations scams carew exponentially. particularly retail company. it's romance scams that lead the pack in terms of personal financial costs. in a study i conducted with the ftc, we found that the median reported losses for consumers in their 70s and 80s were $10,000. quadrupled the losses reported by young adults. we can also use reporting data to look at methods of money transfer. today, bank transfer and cryptocurrency are the clear front runners in terms of losses. together, these methods account for one and a half billion in stolen funds. more than doubled the losses from all other payment methods combined. this is a great deal of money, research indicates that fewer than 3% of consumers report to law enforcement. the true losses are many magnitude greater. among older adults, as he said,

gift cards are still the most common method of money transfer. gift cards are favored by perpetrators because there are easily available to consumers. there are not a, mr. instantly renewable and are very few controls. retail sales clerks are often the only individuals in position to intervene. in my research supported by aarp, my graduate students and i interviewed retail store managers from around the u.s.. we surveyed cashiers and we visited local stores to document what is being done. we found that most major retailers have some type of signage warning customers about gift card scams. but the messages were typically small. they were placed out of eye level or completely lost in the sea of gift cards competing for shoppers attention. less than half of our cashiers were surveyed reported there were any limits on purchase amounts. the store manager said they've never received any formal training from their employers on what to say to intervene.

ultimately, they felt are not authorized to deny gift cards purchases if the customer assists even if they're certain scam. as the saying goes and retail, customer is king. in light of these findings, i believe that more education for frontline retail staff is warranted. more importantly, we need to demand action from the gift card payments industry. including the payment processors and the card issuers. these are the entities that concede when the money is being loaded on to a card by customers and stories and an emmy lee redeemed by perpetrators in a remote location. additional controls made include temporary holds on suspicious attempts to redeem high value cards. and that would give customers more time to identify and report fraud. lower transaction limits could also reduce the lost amount and make gift cards less attractive to foreign criminals consumer education is also critical as we say forewarned is forearmed. however we cannot as individuals to shoulder the burden of consumer protection

alone and conjecture which occasionally the private sector to step up. legislation such as the trade staff is a fun tactic -- how phone companies withheld from congress can limit unwanted and fraudulent robocalls. we need somewhat convolution supply to other methods of contact from bogus text messages to fake social media profiles. we also need to expand the senior safe act to encourage all types of financial institutions to act quickly. by placing temporary holds on suspicious transactions and reporting elder thrown to the authorities. last, based on what we were seeing in the most recent reporting data, cryptocurrency is playing an outsized role in the fraud landscape. the fraudsters playbook has evolved in the air moving into new complex and under-regulated environments. step need to be taken now to curtail the ride of crypto fraud. in summary, you are so fortunate to sit in this where area policy making. this is where consumers, both sides of the aisle, and the private sector, they all want

the same thing. to stop criminals from exploiting americans. let's advocate for greater investment from the private sector. we want companies to be proactive when they suspect a fraud. instead of reactive when that money is already gone. through these and other actions, we can show consumers that the federal government is committed to keeping their money safe, holding the perpetrators accountable, and restoring trust in the marketplace. thank you. >> thank you very much for your testimony. we will move next to our second witness. >> good morning. good morning to the members of the committee. my name is nancy. i am the senior protective service investigator at the financial unit in california. thank you for a limited join you today to discuss the topic that i am passionate about and dedicated to. this is the fight against fraud and scams. over the past year, i have been privileged to be attached to

the san diego task force. it is a partnership of the san diego district attorney's office. the fbi, local law enforcement, and the county. -- we are seeking to impact scams against older adults. the county is home to over 3. 3 million people. of that, approximately 680,000 or individuals or the age of 60. from 2000 to 2030, it is projected that adults 60 and older will increase by 100 and 30%. the general population will increase just 38%. that means that one in four people and san diego will be over 60 years of age. these numbers are real. we have witnessed firsthand the increase in abs reversals over the years. particularly in cases with scams and financial abuse. from june 2021 to july 2022, over 1200 abs kamala cases were referred to our office. and i stayed estimated loss of over $34 million.

it is clear that we have an issue. this is an issue that are most vulnerable population, who have spent years of hardware except for their goal and years, they are now being received having their life savings stolen under the false pretenses by vicious perpetrators. the ap s is frequently i respond to these victims. we help them start the process to potentially recover losses. we want them to bring a sense of security. back we are also protecting them from future exploitation. you're not investigation, we must build a poor, gain their trust, and assess their safety. all while ensuring that we gather all the necessary evidence to bring a case in the next level. what is the next level? that is what you may ask. as we know, without evidence, there is no. primary bs team members along with the local law enforcement agencies and san diego have been trained to gather key details. how do these scammers contact

you? what company do they represent? what account members and financial institutions were mentioned during the conversation? these cases are complex. some of the top ones that we see our mobile cash, fq to be a money transfers, social media engineering, and cryptocurrency. and we confiscate a bitcoin machine and an elderly person walk up to in order to deposit cash? they used a qr code that they receive via text message. these difficult cases -- recovery of these funds is potentially possible. on july 13th, 2021, adult protective services was contacted by the san diego sheriff's department concerned about a possible local closure

clearinghouse scam victim. there was a 75,000 dollar cash package located in florida. game from san diego address. upon investigating this president, we located the male or with the elders name on it. with the support and the system of the elder justice task force, we reached out to the appropriate parties in order to gather the necessary information to create an abs referral. this referral allowed us to have open communication with the identified victim. we were able to speak to their financial institution, locate national support, and then collaborate with local law enforcement. through this collaborative work, we conducted the records

request. one payment was the san diego address. that is where the package was sent to you from florida. this victim identified that she had sent over $250,000 to various individual through the direction of employees from the publisher clearinghouse scam. this is not uncommon method of payment. scammers are using the most vulnerable citizens to launder money from them or for them. ultimately requesting for cash payments to be mailed to random addresses. we worked with the financial institution. we reviewed over 271 pages of bank records. we are able to confirm that our victim did sent the money to another senior. that check was cashed by the receiving banks. collaborative work works. i'm here today to speak to eu. this is a national problem crossing international borders. in the past year, according to these guys, more than 92,000 victims or the age of 60 reported losses of 1. 7 billion dollars. that is just reported losses. this represents an increase of 74% since 2020.

this is a crisis. without swift action, the trend will continue. reporting elder financial abuses mandated. we have infrastructure in place to deport scams. i see three, the ftc, fbi, atf, and local law enforcement. we needed additional resources. agencies involved in how it's all the greater issue. >> we need legislation in targeted education. that makes it harder for the scammers to attack our precious population in society. we can put faith back in the public system. we need to obtain bank records quickly for the suspicious transactions. on behalf of the senior accounting, i thank you for being in this critical issue to the forefront. i thank you for your continued work to protect the vulnerable seniors in our community. i welcome any questions the committee may have. thank you. >> thank you very much. we will turn next to mrs. -- >> hello. >> hi. my name is aurelia costigan. i was born in pittsburgh, pennsylvania. i was married twice. both of my husband's house passed. i have been a widow since 2008. that is when my second has been passed. i used to be a school bus

driver. i also worked in health care for seven years. i am now require retired on social security disability. i am surviving on benefits. i am in the north hills with my oldest daughter. i have two daughters, three grandchildren, into great grandchildren. last december, i got a phone call from a number that was listed on the back of my daughter victor. this man says that he went to the bank. he says there was suspicious activity on my account from tennessee. he said that one of them was from a grocery store. there was another one from a movie theater. he asked if i was in tennessee recently. he asked if i've made any charges there. i said the dollars in pittsburgh. i've never been to tennessee. he asked if i had any relatives or friends that we're using my car. i said no. he proceeded to say that if they happen to cancel my car, he could help me out. he could add that to protect my

bank account. at the time, i have no idea what it was. i just assumed that what he was saying would be helpful. okay, that is good. >> he said that he had to have some kind of proof that he was actually speaking with costigan. he needed a form of identification to prove that he was speaking with me. he asked if i had any online banking. i went to the back of my -- he says that the there is no option to prove who i was. he needed social security. okay, unusual, but it sounded feasible. i gave him my social security number. i think him and we hung up. less than 5 to 10 minutes later, my phone started blowing up. it was notifying me if charge after charge. one after the other. 22 to be exact. i panicked. i went to my bank. i told them about a phone call. they said they have no charge from tennessee on the account. that's when i realized i was scammed. they said that they would look into it. i will not quit until i find the money. i was told to notify the police and follow up. i did. also with the state attorney's office. i did that. the police officer was very helpful in understanding. he provided me with the

resources and the panelists. he even held my hand. he says that he fell for me and other people who have taken advantage like this. i was an absolute wreck. i could not sleep. wyatt trouble leading. i was devastated. the money that i lost because of the scam was 1800 dollars. that is a lot of money. it takes me a long time to earn money like that. sometimes you need that if something breaks down. you might have medical expenses coming up. these kind of things happen. you need to have some kind of backup. i thought i would never get that money back. maybe a month or so later, my bank was able to get my money back. all 1800 dollars. the state attorney's rv office told me that i was very fortunate that my bank work so hard to get my money back. i feel like i could finally

calm down after a lot of praying. i know that not everyone has had this experience. these scammers get away with this every single day. there are people like myself. they don't give any information to anybody about yourself. i now tell my friends and family my story is a warning. i tell them to be careful. i hope that we can do something so that this does not happen to anybody else. >> thank you again for sharing your story. we are grateful for it. we will wrap up with the fourth and final witness. >> thank you. that is the ranking member. my name is polly. i am 76 years old. i am the mother of two sons. i am a grandmother of five grandchildren. i am a retired registered nurse.

i am a retired nursing educator. i also ran a nursing department. it taught or ends for five and a half years. i had a lot of compassionate people. they had to handle the money. i felt like i was very given to knowledge there. my husband of 48 years died nine years ago. i've lived in the same house as senator scott said. that was for 32. years i'm here today to tell you about the scam. that upended my world last year. i have always paid my bills on time. i worked hard to maintain a thrifty lifestyle. i taught our sons the same. i pride myself on not spending foolishly. i have sharp financial instincts. when i realized what happened to me, that somebody actually

took such advantage of me, the bottom fell out of my life. i have been having email trouble with my old computer. it was in the middle of the pandemic. i could not get it fixed and no one would come to the house. could not take it to the locals staples. in january of 2021, thing started to loosen up a little bit. i went and got a new computer. things were going back to normal. on april 13th, i was using my new laptop on a public wi-fi. a pop-up appeared on the home screen. there was a large orange blinking triangle. it was going to take your attention. of course. it said that it had computer problems. my computer had been compromised. i call the listed number. i was afraid i was in for the same problem that i had before. which had cut me off from my community and my church. a voice was a representative of microsoft. it answered. he told me that about their

protective software at $299, that included monitoring for two years. he guaranteed that he would call me every so lofted. you can tell that this was going to be good customer service. the third call came on june 14th. this man was calling. he said he wanted to check on the program and see how it was working. if it was not working, he wanted to weave on my dollars. he also wanted to give me $100 for the inconvenience bothering him. to run the software, he wanted me to go to my computer in turn it on. i did. i had to give him full access. during this text message, there was the other message flooding the screen and rolling by. there it was again. and alert completing my computer was compromised.

i told him to send the refined by way of check to my home address. and he said he couldn't. the service had been paid for electronically. they were going to attend my money. he moved to a different browser window. in the screen broke out with a chaotic movement, with numbers rolling around and around and around. then, all of the sudden, everything stopped. and the number on the screen, with other numbers highlight, it was $20,000. the scammer feigned outrage. saying i had intentionally stopped the computer when my checking account reflected a 20,000 dollar deposit. i did not know he had been doing on there. but i could not see what he was talking about. we were not in my bank account. we were not in my checking account. i never touched the computer or the mouse while he was running his testing.

then, he opens the window and showed me my checking account. instead of $6, 000, it had $26,000 on it. i screamed, how did this happen? how did you get in? i was stunned. i have a balance that was way above where they should have had, and it wasn't mine. being so precise about money, i had no idea where the money came from. i wanted nothing to do with it. the scammer was furious, demanding without pay them back immediately. microsoft would sue me, which sent me two collections. would get the police after me. we ruin my credit. and i worked a hard time to try to establish a good credit record. credit rating. i was terrified. i felt that the only way i can get my money back was to do exactly what he said. he told me to wire the $20,000 to a microwave subsidiary in vietnam. the instructions were to tell usa, my, bank that i knew this

person i know them $20,000. he told me not to veer off of those instructions, i would not be able to pay them back. after i completed the wire transfer, our call ended. he immediately, i contacted u.s. aa to report what had happened. a representative told me she thought i had been scammed. but i would not get a call back until the next day. this happened now. why couldn't they call me now? but it was after office hours. the next day, i prognosticator called and asked with a gun and make the next day. i told, him and he did not tell me anything but what actually happened. they could see the diet taking it to $20,000 on my home equity line of credit. -- for 17. years it has been inactive, dormant. i never knew the money was from

usa. i thought it was from microsoft. i did know it was alone for, me and i was throwing it away. now i owe usa a $20,000 plus interest. i live, too, on a fixed income. i couldn't make the payments. i could not -- the interest was starting to pile up. they told me not to pay attention to it, because it was a fraud investigation. so i didn't start to pay, it when it was $3 and, something the first few days. i didn't get payback. then it got bigger and bigger. i could not handle everything. finally, after the over do notice i was getting 40 loan, a scary letter came -- from usa. they told me i was eligible for bankruptcy. i owe my host, my car. i should not be eligible for bankruptcy.

in the end, not having -- usa a put a lean on my house. i did not have the money to pay it. i had to use all of my individual retirement account. that is in order to pay usa a. it was driving me mentally insane. the situation snowballed. i could not find it. legal advice. i called -- they took a statement and it not coming back, they said they were going to, you i call the police and i got numerous offer. i call the south carolina attorney's office. i called many many places. i did not know about the number that has been in effect for ten years. i could call them for help here. i have it written down. i did not find anyone. i was afraid to tell everyone. i did not find anyone to help me into a local reporter, a local tv reporter, diane lee, she came on board and listen to my story. she broadcast today. i was afraid of it. i did not want people to know.

i had not even told my son for days. this was my second son in taxes. i am not holding for months. i was afraid of the reaction. i was so stupid. i was blaming myself. after suffering through the scam, i was not only alone in the past, but i even lost my spirit to live. i sat alone, i hated myself. sometimes, i could not even get a bed. i thought that this was so ridiculous. i went to the area for a medication. and i went to them for medication. i opted out of all of my community and church activities. before that, it had been a vital part of my life. i had no leadership roles. i did not even attend church for a while. i could not function as the person i had been. i was not the person that i'd be. and i'm here today because i am a survivor. god is giving me the strength to reclaim my life. i'll on others to know that there is hope out there. i want others to know that this does not have to happen. saving others from falling into the pit that i was in.

this is what comes with losing your software of and retirement savings. this needs to be done. and we need to do everything we can. i have some ideas. we will talk about those later. thank you for listening. i look forward to your questions. >> mrs. fehler thank you so much. i think we're all indebted to you to your testimony that you are willing to share with us. i know it can't be easy to relive some of that horror, and we are grateful you are willing to do it to help others. we're gonna go in for questioning in a different way. i'm gonna turn first to my colleague senator bloomingville, and then we'll pick up from there. >> thank you so much mister chairman, thank you so much for having this hearing. as the witnesses have observed, and i think the chairman is, well fraud affects elders more frequently, and more devastatingly than anyone else and miss fehler and miss --

thank you for telling your stories with such bravery and precision because i think they give a voice and face to this problem. it is truly moving. you have shown, not only the financial impact, but also the emotional and psychological impact. in connecticut, the department of it and disability services is warning seniors against the genetic testing fraud-ing that medicare beneficiaries. where scammers pose as genetic testing company representatives. they offer free genetic tests, and then steal their medical identity in order to falsely bill medicare, thereby draining the system of needing funds that -- those free genetic texts are

obviously a ruse. this is only one of many that consumers have reported to us affecting elders. it's why i was proud to introduce the older protected act. this builds on the elder abuse prevention and prosecution act, a bill that i sponsored and helped to pass into law. it provides sanctuary authority for the elder justice initiative, which coordinate activities at the department of justice to combat elder abuse, neglect, financial fraud. the chairman is to be commended for the his leadership in this area, as a member, and it brings us here today. miss, the lima, i was especially interested as a former attorney general and also federal prosecutor, your data and statistics on which

frauds affect seniors most commonly, and of course they evolved as you observed, for example the use of government agencies deceive -- as a means to entice or deceive seniors through. government agencies overtime. but i was particularly interested in your information about romance schemes and scams, i want to demonstrate my perhaps, naivete and ignorance by saying i really have no idea that the magnitude of loss was greatest for those 70 79, 80 and older. i wonder if you can expand a little bit on what you have told us in your testimony about the reasons why that amount is at $10,000 whereas for young people, my children's

age between let's say, 20 and 29, or 30 and 39, the amounts are much less. i don't know whether the frequency is higher, but the amounts are less, if you could explain. >> absolutely, thank you senator. so, romance scams are unique in that they tend to go on for many weeks, sometimes many months. when a person finally does report, it's reflected -- the magnitude of losses is reflected in that report. typically perpetrators don't just start off the bat asking for $10,000 from their romance scam victims. they might ask for smaller amounts, and then once a trust is built, then they'll start asking for greater, and greater sums of money. that's why i think, we see those amounts so high. it's possible that younger adults might have more people in their lives to intervene and say hey, this seems suspicious, whereas

older adults with greater isolation, it can go on for longer. but the fact that they're not losing, you know, that $10,000 all in one fell swoop, indicates to me that there are so many opportunities for intervention along the way. let's see if we can catch those smaller amount of money -- leaving first to really prevent the deep pockets from being lost. thank you. >> and presumably also, minimize the emotional impact if it is caught early. >> absolutely. you know, perpetrators mo is to tell the person to keep these relationships private. they say things like, your children won't understand, this is between us. again, one of our questions is why don't they reach out to our friends and family members, it's because they are instructed not to. >> thank. you thank you very much, thank you all for your testimonies. it's a very, very helpful, and valuable to us. thanks miss chairman. >> thank you senator

blumenthal. russell joined by senator -- will now turn to senator collins. >> thank you mister chairman. i am so glad that you and the ranking member are continuing the committees focus on scams centered directed against our older americans. it is extraordinary how painful, not just financially, but emotionally these scams are. in that regard, i want to thank mrs. costigan and misses fehler for coming forward and sharing their very powerful stories, that will help to educate others, other older americans and tell them that they're not alone, and that they should get help. most of all, help them avoid these scams in the first place. mrs. fehler, i want to start with you and again, i

found your testimony to be so compelling because as you pointed, out you have an extensive financial background. and you're not easily deceived. but you fell prey to an extremely sophisticated, ruthless scam that went on for months. for those of us, and i put myself in that category, who are not that savvy, technically, getting a notice on your computer, that it's been compromised, would cause alarm for almost all of us. over the past several years, the aging committee has helped many hearings examining scams that are targeting older

americans. what we have frequent when the heard is that if anyone had intervened, at any point in the process, that the scam would not have been successful. the senior -- say fact that i have introduced with senators kacey and scott, was signed into law in 2018, and one of our witnesses has urged an expansion of that, which i think is worthwhile. but the whole idea was to train right financial institutions employees to be able to spot, and report, financial exploitation of older americans. so my question for you is, if someone from your bank had seen this very suspicious transaction, where you're opening a line of credit that you've not used in i think

you said, 17 years, and asked you about it, would that have stopped the scam? >> yes, and it would have stopped it on any level. they could've emailed me, they could've texted me, they could've found me. if i go on a trip, and i use a credit card, and i haven't let usa know outrunning to a different state, and i use it at a gas station,

the first gas charge might go, through the second time, my card would have been frozen. that's $20. we're talking about $20, 000, and they did not find that i had a right to expect notification. i didn't expect a notification because, i had not used, it i thought it was, closed i had no use for. that's one thing they can do. i think it's very important that not only, seeing the money being moved, but seeing accounts being utilized that were not open before, is very important in the education that we have the bankers also. or any financial institution. i think that we need to understand the difference between a scam, and fraud. they didn't paint mine because they said it was a scam, i have the definition here that the banks used for scammed versus fraud, and i believe it was a fraud. but the reason they gave it to me -- they wouldn't accept it is because they said this was a scam, this

was totally up to you. i sent the money, i agree with that, that was stupid, but i did that. but i did not -- they did not contact me, i they did not contact, may they allowed that guy to get into my bank account, move the money from u.s. a a's loan department into that home equity loan, and i had no knowledge of it. >> it seems to me that your analogy with the use of a credit card, is a very good one. if you go out of the country, and you haven't told your credit card company, they are likely to decline the transaction and text you, or contact you in some way to find out is it really you using that card. -- it seems a lot of factors that your bank would've seen that it was suspicious, and contacted. you that what seniors safe is all about, to ensure that banks are not violating privacy laws, and that they are not always going to be held liable in some way, for asking you, is this really a transaction that you want. so

thank you for sharing that experience. thank you mister chairman. >> can i say one other thing? i was a member of usa a for 41 years. i still feel that they owed me something, of communication. >> i agree. >> thank you. >> thank you senator collins. i'll turn next to my questions, i want to direct my first question to both miss costigan and mrs. wynne sailor. you've shared personal stories and we're grateful for that. i wanted to -- part of your testimony indicated that the impact on each of you individually, miss costigan talked about being devastated. then thankfully, when the money was returned, they had come down. mrs. fehler so many times in your testimony, you talk about the impact on you. you said the bottom didn't just flat out of my life, i drop straight into. you talked about being depressed and alone and you couldn't function and so many other expressions of the

horror you're living through. i guess because of that, it cuts through for a lot of americans who will hear your testimony, and it allows people to understand this can happen as senator collins said, to any of us. no matter what our background is. or no matter what our ages. for both of, you your testimony highlighted the importance, not only of just helping people to spot so-called red flags, but how to respond. to make sure there's an adequate response when you do, we point to that red flag. this year's fraud book focuses on both. i think that's one of the real benefits of it. i guess we'll go in alphabetical order. miss costigan and then misses fehler. why is it important to focus not only on

education to prevent scams, which is obviously very important, but also on resources to respond and help when these can actually occurs? >> i feel it'll be a little bit of both factually and what you're saying. because people of our age, that are baby boomer age, were very trusting persons. we're also not tech savvy on computers, in the computer world, which makes it a whole lot harder for the elderly people. that needs to be brought to attention as well to train elderly people on how to handle computer work. i feel for messes fehler because the 1800 dollars i lost, thankfully my bank was able to recover, to me 1800 dollars is like having a -- taken from me. but for mrs. fehler my heart goes out

to you, to what happened to you, and this needs to be made very more publicly as to what is happening in this world which is very sad, that people are taking advantage the way they are. >> thank you. >> mrs. fehler? >> i believe that we need more resources and the ability to not have the victim feel that they're totally at fault. that the first thing you do is you may shouted anger at the people that are doing, it but then that's cut off, you don't have any more to do with it, then they put the blame on yo, you carry that blame. and you're afraid to tell people you afraid to tell your family because if you are to blame how can you take any more pressure. how can you do anymore than what you're doing? the police -- the seneca police department came over and talk to me and told me they couldn't do anything. the -- they told me that it wouldn't do any good to go to the county sheriff's

department. it wouldn't do any good to go to the state department of law. that i needed to get a hold of some legal people. and i went through very, very, very, a lot of people, and it was all i could do. i was making two phone calls a day, and then i was totally mindset wiped out. i think that we need to be able to allow the plight of senior citizens to also reach the families around us. we are so afraid of not being able to fill our need with the person who's not experienced. we're so afraid of being labeled. we need someone who can help and pushes on our way and know what some of those resources. candy because frankly. i'm astounded -- not one of them gave me the

number for the resource sign. not the federal -- commission who talked to for a long. time not once. they called me, that they never did. not the south carolina legal assistance, i talk to them once, they never got me back in, nobody. nobody got us back into help. it's important that we educate the seniors, one faulty thing about seniors -- won the problem with seniors is that some of us aren't so alert and active and able to understand, we need somebody that knows where we're at mentally, and physically, that can tell us the kinds of things that we can go, where we are if our mental acuity is not quite as. good we need somebody that doesn't make us feel that were no good. they need to know the resources. it's really important, this book is really important, the number is really important to get this information out. i get turned off when nobody calls back, and they say it will get by right

back with, you and i get their name a number, you try and call, back and they're not available, they're not available, they're not available. i think that is horrible. there needs to be a person that is going to answer, and you need to know who they are, and they need to hold some accountability for those resources if they're going to do something. >> no question that it's not good enough to get a hearing like this to point out the problem. we have to be determined for every level of government to up their. game every local government, count, state, federal. everybody has to do more to respond so you don't have that experience of being victimized, and then kind of further injured by a lack of response. i have a question which all wait for the second round to win miss pham-klingler, all turned to ranking member

scott. -- >> older americans are popular target first hammers. -- this bill provides $10 million in grant money to state regulators to help protect seniors from fraud. looking back on your experience, what are some of the red flags, and your tips that you would like to share with others seniors that may help to identify some scammers. >> when people call you on your phone and ask you questions, do not answer them. if you have any confusion about it, go to your bank and talk to them in person. do not give any information on the telephone, social security numbers, online banking numbers, anything of any kind because i have learned my lesson.

>> it's incredible that we find ourselves in a place where you have to really question everyone that calls our seniors. it's just a nervous position for seniors that find themselves, via sincere people that are trying to be helpful and do the right thing, must rewire the way they see the world because of these scammers and frauds. it's a different kind of evil for these folks that take advantage of our seniors, in vulnerable positions. mrs. fehler, i was walking back from a banking hearing where i was asking questions, and i ran into mrs. collins who said that you are simply spectacular. she really found your testimony to be eliminating, and helpful, to become the city of the scanner she heard you articulate it, it was one that was just unbelievable from her's perspective. she was really

impressed. you may have answered this in part, based on my thoughts with her, but i do think that seniors benefit from hearing your tips i similar question that i asked just now i'd love to hear your answers to how do we help seniors in such a situation. yours was so complex, how do we find those red flags and warnings. what tips would you provide? >> one thing that's really important, and i kind of alluded to it with the end of my last statement, but i think that -- let me give an example. usa is a federal bank, that i belong to like i said, for 41 years. i never talked to the same person, over the more than 50 calls, except for one time, his name was jim. never, i always had to go through what had happened, they had notes,

they either had to read them or they had no questions, or they couldn't get me to the person. when usa sent me a letter, it was signed by a man that i could file for bankruptcy. i try to get a hold of that man they wouldn't put me through to him or his office. i said does he exist, and they said well here we think so. i never was able -- usaa comes out of texas. i was never able to talk to anybody to know anybody. so i was really -- when i got back and was able to function, i was really able and happy to be able to go to a small bank, wells fargo, a huge bank, but it's a small banking bank and they took me right in, they talk to me, they introduced me to the people that would be handling my count. when i had the problem where i was so depressed, and i didn't know what to do with this loan i couldn't pay off, they got me into the net people that handle your funds, your time and,

funds and the two of them together talked to me, determine that my mental health would be much better if i could get this loan paid off. and what would be the best way for me to do that without causing the most loss. because i lost more money than 20, 000, by canceling an i. r. a.. to have that kind of care, from a financial institution, was what i had been looking for. we usaa before i had touted as a great, great place. but you need someone that knows, you and listens to you. they need to get their act together. >> yes ma'am. >> and there are millions of usaa that their needs are going to be met if they don't get their act together. and they did not listen to me, at all. >> thank you very much, and with my little time that i have left. i wanna follow up a question with doctor deliema. it really is my next question which is the mental health consequences, and your research on the. can you just bring maybe 30 40 seconds, and give

me a synopsis? >> right, so i've had the privilege to beat consumer complaints on fraud through my special government agency position with the federal trade commission, and also just in interviews with victims. i'm gonna be honest with, you i've had to take breaks. i've had to just step aside, do something else, go for a walk around campus, because it's painful. people talk about their marriages collapsing, when the partner found out and they talk about depression, and they talk about taking their own lives. we should just think about financial crimes as being oh these kind of small impacts. the impacts are as severe as victimization, by physical, and sexual assault. >> thank you very much, that's powerful. my goodness. >> thank you ranking member scott. i'll turn next to miss pham-klingler for a question. for community education, which i know you know something about, for that to be effective it's got to reach all communities, of course, and that's why

ranking member scott and i made a priority to ensure that the committee's front resources are available in both english and spanish. well that's an important step, we know that there is more work we have to do together. there are so many seniors, particularly those and diverse communities who are not, not receiving the information that they need. the federal trade commission scams against older adults adviser group, has an important role to play and identifying solutions to reach every senior. every senior who needs tools, information, and support. so i ask you, do you have any advice for the federal trade commission, and the council itself as it begins its work to ensure that their work takes into consideration the following, language, accessibility, and other needs. >> senator, thank you for your question. my advice would be that the -- are using to reach our targeted audience. the same

methods that these scammers are using to perpetrate our victim such as online, where they frequent most, social media platforms, reaching out to family, and friends. allowing this to be a more normalized conversation amongst each other, and also to provide this in multiple languages and communities that are less willing to speak up about being a victim of a scam. thank you. >> i know we're going to turn next to senator lee rosen. senator rosen might be available virtually. >> i am here. thank you senator casey. i appreciate it i really appreciate -- i'm now i'm not in the room, but i think senator scott is, there are really pushing you both for holding this really important hearing. these stories are heartbreaking, devastating, and we really need to do something to protect people because they don't happened just in one community or another, they're

happening in my home state of nevada, but all across the country. bad actors continue to target and target nevadans, particularly nevadan seniors. in fact according to data from the federal trade commissions, scams across nevada is nearly $36 million in 2020 alone. idf, fraud, remains a top type of scam -- much of it done through fishing and phone calls. in particular what's worrisome to me is that the scammers are increasingly holding on to personal data for long periods of time, even up to a year or two after obtaining it, leaving seniors and others kind of in the dark as to when their data might be used. in some cases, we're witnessing scammers utilizing data up in the early days of the pandemic. mrs. pham-klingler, i'm told by a irpin of added that delayed use of data obtained via scams is really becoming a problem in

our. state what should nevada seniors who may have been a victim of scam in the past, and may not -- how do they protect themselves now, considering that led people are using their data now, or might use in the future. >> thank you senator for your question. my advice and my encouragement is for them to safeguard all their banking information. changing banking account numbers. monitoring their credits, and ensuring that there is an alternative person who has oversight over their finances such as a loved one, or someone that they trust who has a secondary eye on their banking so. thank you senator. >> thank you. i want to move to something else, that really happens a lot in nevada. and what happens across the country as well, particularly after disasters, but these home repair scams. according to nevada state contracts reports,

since the beginning of the pandemic, there has been a marked increase in complaints to the board about unsolicited -- they just go door to door in my, town and all across nevada. they claim to be contractors, they offer home repairs at lower rates, but actually the unlicensed so they put high pressure tactics for people to put money upfront and leave no paper trail. they gravitate to some of our communities where english language is limited english proficiency, and that compromises a lot of groups in nevada. so doctor deliema are you observing home repair scams across the country as well? particularly in the wake of natural disasters, other advance exacerbated by climate change. we have a lot -- of of course up and down nevada, and across the west. how is the ftc responding to these, and particularly for those with limited english proficiency? >> so thank you for your question. so, scammers flocked to areas where there's disruption. where there's confusion, and fear, that is just a playground for fraud criminals. well i can't speak from the perspective of the ftc,

i can say that when we think about consumer education, education is best delivered in the moment on it's relevant. when there is a natural disaster, that is a time we need to alert to those communities to the fact that there will be criminals, even in the people going door to door to try to take advantage of them at a time when they are hit hardest emotionally. you know, informing people to never do business with someone who comes in and -- do your due diligence so thank you for that question. >> thank you. thank you chairman casey, i yield back. >> thank you senator rosen. we're coming to the end of our hearing and i wanted to start by thanking our witnesses. i'll have a closing's statement and

then i'll turn to ranking member scott. we can't thank our witnesses enough for their testimony today, bringing either personal experience in the case of mrs. costigan and mrs. fehler but others running experience as, advocates as experts, the combination is very helpful for -- the members of committee of our staff for the american people. we hope that a hearing like this, and the work that was done to put together away are fighting fraud, the top scams in 2022, that this work will lead to people being more aware and to prevent these scams from occurring and also to get the help they need, one if a scam does impact their lives. but your stories and those of those -- of others who appeared before the committee demonstrate -- these terrible counts in the first place and

to burn justice, swift significant justice, to the criminals who engage in this conduct. no one should lose a single penny of their hard earned money to a con artist. that's why i was proud that the congress passed a bipartisan stop senior scam act to make sure that we can develop the tools and resources to the make sure that's we can stop seniors from becoming victims of these crime. that's also why senator scott and i have worked closely to release the revamped fraud book that i have just made reference to both in english and spanish, to make sure that seniors have tools and information that they need. so i look forward to continuing that bipartisan work together, and now turn to ranking member scott for his closing statement. >> thank you mister chairman for holding such an important hearing on the topic that

really is heart wrenching. thank you to each of the panelists for taking your time, and investing your energy, and your expertise on such an important topic. mrs. fehler thank you so much for spending your time here, and representing our states so well. >> can i add one, can i add one comment. >> sir? >> thank you chairman casey. i think that we if an independent can hear your appeals who have been denied reimbursement, when the bank themselves makes the decision that this isn't viable, there are the ones losing the money. of course they're gonna lean towards a, that's a biased finding. is there any way we can make them have an independent organization, that would overview anybody that wants to appeal one of their decisions? if we could look forward to something like that, that would be great. thank you. >> thank you, and will certainly take that into

consideration. we learned a lot from these hearings, and we also get a lot of good ideas. so we're glad you're. china >> started interrupt. i don't mind being interrupted, at least it's by itself carolinian. thank you very much. with most of my good ideas bob weir comes from south carolina. this is good news it continues to show -- with 1-855-303-9470. the one thing i will say that is important, i thought having the chairman mentioned the number twice during his opening comments, and me mentioning the number at least once or twice was good enough but after listening to the temps to monies, and after hearing how hard it is to coordinate and how collaboration on the parts of our seniors who are -- in desperate straits enough you can see the number often enough. i'll say one more time. 1-855-303-9470. mister chairman i'll just close through his comments -- inflation is sky-high, nest eggs are being hammered. our seniors cannot afford a billion dollars, a billion dollars of lost money, because of scams. it's -- i believe that the testimony that we've heard today it will help seniors keep more of their money, and hopefully put up a fire wall to the scammers and fraudsters who are taking too much of the resources of people who have worked their entire lives, to have them. thank you

all for being here with us today. >> thank you ranking member scott. thank you for referring to number. again all refer to it one last time just to -- so that we've set it approximately an equal number of times. 1-855-303-9470 i want to thank the ranking member for emphasizing that. i did acknowledge, one of our senators who is with us today, senator warnock, who is with us as part of this hearing. i wanted to note as well, i want to thank the staffs of both of our staff's, for working on this. this book is new and improved, and i said it in both english and spanish, but just to give people seeing the hearing some sense of what's inside. just to give an example, for example, the number one, the number one scam in the top ten's government impostor scam,

so that appears, the summary that appears on page 15. but right after that, you have a section called red flags, which are things to look for. but maybe the most important, is the steps to prevent and respond. i think that's very

important for people to take a look at. the first step to prevent and respond is, if someone calls and it's a government impostor scam, hang up the phone. hang up the phone and don't reply to the email. it goes on from there, giving other advice, but it's very practical. it's important that we have data about how many of these scams occur, but is even more important that we give information about how that individual should react in the moment, and so we're grateful that our staff's work so hard on that. i want to think again, all of our witnesses for their testimony, whether it comes from their personal experience of having been a victim, or your own work in scholarship, and advocacy. both are so

valuable. i want to senators to know, on the committee, if any senator has additional questions for the witnesses, or statements to be added to the record, the hearing record will be kept open for seven days until next thursday september 29th. thank you all for participating, this concludes today's hearing. >> where can this book be -- where can this book be obtained? >> you can get in on the website. >> the website? >> on the website. and i also wanted to see if you wanted to -- >> but for others? >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are funded by these television companies, and more. including cox. >> homework can be hard, but squatting in the diner for internet work is even harder. that's why we are providing low incometudents access to affordable internet. so homework can just be homework. cox, connects to compete. >> cox supports c-span's a

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