we get to put people first to own and control your data we get to use the technology for society's sake and optimize for what we all really care about and protect our children and so on and so forth. if we can get a the kind of the people involved moved in this to really reclaim future, then i think can win this fight. if we just new better tech to do i think we lose the fight because it's these platforms are so big and powerful that there's one thing that's going to change and that's when we insist that it be changed. thank very much. thank you all for being. all right. let's keep it goingood evening,d

welcome. my name is brant rosen. i'm the rabbi esthetic chicago and a member of the chicago chapter of jewish voice for peace. two of the co-sponsors of evening's program. i'd like to first thank and honor our event's primary sponsor, rights watch. as i'm sure many of you may know of nathan thrall appearances have been canceled recently. and the fact that we are here at all this evening is due the

principles and quite the courage of rw and our good friends here at temple. please, let's show some appreciation to those who made this evening possible. we're gathering together this evening. as we all know as a horrific tragedy continues to unfold in gaza and israel. i'm tempted to say that when program was first scheduled, none of us could imagined the terrible circumstances in which we now find ourselves. but i'm not so sure that's completely true. palestinians, their allies and numerous human organizations, including human rights watch have long been sounding the alarm that israel has been subjecting palestinians for decades to a apartheid regime of

occupation over and over, been warned that there could violence, even cataclysmic violence, if israel was not held, account. and now, tragically, that moment has arrived over the past. the horror of this violence has unfolded. and many of us have been asking how could it have come to this? and while our program this evening does focus specifically on the terrible ongoing violence in gaza, i'd submit that the book about to discuss and highlight in its way offers important insight into the current moment. on the surface, you could say that a day in the life of salama is a story of a tragedy that befalls one palestine. he and family living under israeli occupation just one story among so many.

but as nathan's book demonstrates so powerfully if we truly seek to understand israel's oppressive architecture of occupation, we must first and foremost understand its impact on everyday. on parents and children, on husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, on community members who live a system of structural violence every day. an oppressive occupation that thwarts attempts to live their lives simply every turn. as we all know, there is a cottage industry of books, articles and think pieces that analyze israel's occupation. but in its microcosmic way. i believe this book about this one jerusalem tragedy helps us gain a much and more valuable understanding than most books you'll find on subject. those you who have read the book undoubtedly know what i mean.

in short order, nathan allows us an intimate perspective into abed's reality, his daily struggle, and ultimately his unbearable heartbreak. and in the end, we away with a deep and invaluable not just of his life, but of so many palestinians like him. and yes, we begin understand how it all could have come to this. i've always felt that if we are ever to find our way forward through the tragic injustices that have gripped israel palestine for far long, it will only happen by summoning up our deepest reservoir, empathy for our collective humanity in the current when such a goal seems more painfully remote than ever, it will be books and, testimonies such as this that will point the way forward for us. all this to say. i'm grateful to nathan for his book to the sponsors of our program for making tonight

possible and to all of you for being here tonight. i've been asked to let you know where the exits are. they' back here and over there helpfully, marked by the signs that say exit and i have also been asked that our conversation this evening, it should go without saying. i will abide by our guidelines of civil discourse. we are all here not necessarily to completely agree with one another, but to share with one another and be open to one another and to hear one another and to express ourselves honestly and openly and ultimately and truly be open to what nathan thrall has to teach us. so with no ado, i will step down and i would like to turn things over to my good friend and comrade dr. barbara ransby. if you like.

thank you, brant, and thank you for your exemplary leadership, which is always an inspiration to all of us. thank you all for coming out on a monday night to have this conversation. us. we gather tonight as are dropping on gaza. the subject of this book nathan's book takes us into a conversation about the region about politics, about what's right and wrong in this moment. but it does it in a very special way. and i'm going to introduce both of my interlocutors here, omar shakir and and nathan thrall. but i want to say, as a preface you know, many of us have been gripped and strained and stressed and in in tears about the situation, palestine and israel since october and on college campuses where i teach,

where many of my colleagues teach, it's been very difficult to have conversations and been very painful, emotional exchange. and it's almost like rational discourse has taken a backseat to what side one is on. i feel like this offers an opportunity to wade in, to walk in, to lead with our hearts, to open hearts, to learning about the experiences of palestinians in occupied palestine. but doing it in a way that invites into our largest humanity. and so i'm i met nathan actually reading an article that he wrote that was a prelude to the book, and i didn't know him. i, you know, didn't know anyone who knew him. and i wrote him an email and he responded and a year or so later, the book came out. he asked me to to moderate this. as it turns out, we have many friends and comrades and colleagues in common. but but that openness, i think, is reflected in how this book is written.

so i'm looking forward this conversation. and let me just introduce the two people i'll be talking to. so nathan thrall is an and a journalist, obviously, the author of a day in the life of ahmed salama anatomy of a jerusalem tragedy, but also has published in the new york times magazine. the guardian the london review of books in new york, review of books and was for a decade. the director at the international crisis group of the arab israeli project. he also taught at bard college, originally from california, but now living in jerusalem. our second speaker is omar shakir and omar serves as the israel and palestine director at the human rights watch. he investigates human rights abuses in israel, the west bank and gaza, and has authored several major reports. in 2021, a report a threshold crossed, which is a 200 page report with graphic

illustrations that give a kind of context and background to the to the occupation and to the situation we see in palestine, particularly in gaza right now. so i want to start with, nathan and, you'll have opportunity to ask questions the end, but i want to start, nathan and just ask you about your choice to write this book. you could have written this story, you know, with a number of entry points, but you chose this particular family, the story of a father, the tragedy that befell his son and its family. and then you introduce us to many, many other issues and and provocations. so why this story and what is a journey been like for you? and welcome to chicago. thank you. thank you, barbara. thank you all for coming. so, you know, this story, there are a number of different ways to answer that question.

one of them is a more emotional answer, which is that, you know, i live in jerusalem and my work for the international crisis group took, me to the west bank. you know, nearly every day. and as i would drive north from from my apartment close to the walls of the old city. i would pass by a walled enclave that contained within many residents of jerusalem the had to main communities within it. the shuafat refugee camp and the town of anata. and this community was surrounded by walls on three sides. a 26 foot tall, gray wall. the separation barrier. and on the fourth side was a different kind of wall which is

the wall, route 43, 70 more famously known, the apartheid road, a segregated road with traffic for israelis on side, traffic for palestinians on the and a giant wall running through the middle of it. and you have. 130,000 people living in this very densely populated walled enclave without a single atm, without lanes in their streets, without sidewalks without playgrounds, and a great many of them are paying municipal to the city of jerusalem and getting almost no services so much that people are forced to burn trash in their streets in the middle of the day and night. and all this is sitting in plain view just underneath the

manicured grounds of the hebrew university of jerusalem, israel's most prestigious university, and from the hebrew university of jerusalem, mount scopus, you can look down and, you can see this walled enclave and you can see checkpoint through which parents are forced to send their children to school or to go to their jobs. the other element that the parents in this community face is a shortage of classrooms. there were at the time the accident that as at the center, the book, they were doing double shifts in the schools just in order to be able to to teach the students. so i would pass by walled ghetto and hardly pay any mind. i would pass by it on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. and i don't think i was alone in ignoring it. the whole landscape of this

place is there are walls everywhere, there are segregation everywhere. it wasn't something that i dwelled on. and after this tragedy occurred where a bus full of kindergartner was from this community was struck by giant semi-trailer wheeler and the bus flipped over and caught fire. six children died. one teacher. and of this is happening just on the other side of this wall where there there is a of deliberate neglect. there is a neglect. israel. there is. an inability of the palestinian authority to enter municipal jerusalem or area c, where the took place. that's than 60% of the west bank. that is under full israeli

security control. and. and so the people who are left to deal with this accident were the palestinians who live this state of neglect. on the other side of the wall and after the accident took place, i couldn't stop thinking about the parents and children and teachers who are affected by it. and i started when i decided to write the book, decided to reach out to everybody. i possibly could who was in one way or another connected to the crash from the settler who founded the settlement next, where the accident took place, to one of the teachers bystander who heroically rescued dozens of children. some of the social workers at the israeli hospital and so one

answer to the question is that i was was moved by story of this accident, how it emblematic of the total neglect of these hundreds of thousands of people on the other side of the wall. and i should say that also through through to enter these areas even within municipal jerusalem you know the emergency services require and an escort by the israeli army or security forces. and so the the fact that the israelis secure emergency services didn't arrive for a very long time was not unique to this accident. that's something that has happened many times in these areas on the other side of the wall and i saw the story, the ability to tell the larger story of israel through the jewish and palestinian characters. but i to say that there is a different way of answering that

question, which is that i also was driven to tell a story of something that occurs every day all over the world. i really didn't want to focus on something could be exceptional ized to focus on something that would be the more natural subject for a work of journalism. a war in gaza, an invasion of janine, suicide bombing. what i really was wanted was to show people what this system was, that these people live under and what it feels like viscerally to live within that system and my frustration for a years and working for the international crisis group and doing the kinds of journalism that i was doing was that whole world would pay attention to this issue.

when there's a war in gaza, when there's a spike in violence and, everybody would call for calm and i wanted to show what that calm looked like. i wanted to us to address calm, to understand that that calm was not actually calm, but was at deeply oppressive system. and that entailed a great deal of violence that produced violence and turned. and i wanted us to pay attention to that system so we are not only horrified when we see something. the war in gaza, but that we're also horrified that war ends. you know, the everyday violence. yeah. and i want to invite you and omar to talk a little bit more about what that looks like. i was i don't know. many people here have visited israel, palestine. how many visited occupied palestine? yeah. so. so, you know, i went in 2011

with an indigenous feminist color delegation and on our delegation was a woman who had grown up on an indian here. so she described woman had grown up in the jim crow south and a woman who had grown up in apartheid south africa and what we saw resonated for all of them resonated for me in terms of the harassment and violence that was pretty routine and that our palestinian saw as pretty, pretty routine life under occupation, going through checkpoints, agents being, you know, harassed, just trying to go about your business. so what do we learn as readers in following of its dilemmas dilemma on that tragic day for, him as a dad looking for his child and you know, we get we get a sense of what that wall represents, what what occupation represents. and what that violence is about. so you want describe it a little

bit more. and then, omar, i want to invite u.n. because you document it with a lot of ahmed salama. but tell us more. yeah. so, you know, the book tells the story of abid salama. it's called a day in the life of abid salama, but it's actually about more than just a day it's the life of abid salama and it's the life of some of the other characters in this book. and one of the themes, i mean, we see in what transpires on that day, how abid learns of the accident, he rushes to the accident site, how he goes through, passes a checkpoint, get to the accident site and tries to flag down israeli soldiers who refuse to give him ride up to to the bus. how he arrives at scene of the accident and all of the kids have been removed. and he asks this crowd where are

the kids. and he's told that some of them went to jerusalem hospitals, some of them went to the military base just a minute up the road. some of them went to ramallah hospital, some even went to nablus. and he himself has a green west bank id, which doesn't him to go to most of the places that were named. certainly can't go to the israeli military. that's a minute up the road. he can't go to hospitals in east jerusalem or in west jerusalem where he is told the kids are located. so he goes to ramallah and and in ramallah, we follow him attempting to find his son and, sending his relatives. you know, these in the same you have people who have green ids, have people who have the blue jerusalem that does allow you to enter jerusalem. so he sends a relative to go to the jerusalem hospital and look

for his son and following more than 36 hours of his life, we see the system in which he's in trapped and how it works and what it actually means to be a green a blue id holder on the worst day of your life. and but what i wanted to say is that, you know, i think a deeper theme of the book is the degree to which the system reaches the most intimate details of these people's. and so when we learn of abed's back story, we learn that at one point he married, he chose a marriage partner based on the color her id because he was at risk of losing his job, a higher paying job in jerusalem like other fellow green id holders. and he chose a marriage partner

just for the chance to get him himself, get a blue i.d. and able to retain his job and, work in jerusalem and provide for his family. and there are many other examples. the book of of that degree of control. mm hmm. talking green ids and blue ids. you're sharing that, mike, with your friends. they share, but i want to ask omar. you know, you're the report you've done a number of reports, but the report in 2021 is particularly compelling and relevant now. and just hearing talk about that level of segregation reminds me of i mean, one of my big periods of activism was the anti-apartheid movement and hearing about the pass laws and knowing that people's lives were regulated, you know, down to the minute detail by, you know, whether they were, you know, had

their past and what their past said they could do, where they could go, they could live, etc. so. so tell us about why, you know, the regime in israel now is labeled apartheid. absolutely. let me start by saying what an honor is to be on my friend nathan. and i always tell people, if you read one, i mean, best thing i've read in years and i'm not just this because he's next to me is this book. so i highly encourage everybody to read it. and i think part the reason why it's so powerful is it it in narrative form lays out the daily reality of palestinians living under israeli rule. people in moments like today. think about the hot violence of carnage, slaughter, bloodshed, which is a part of the palestinian experience. but it's the cold violence of structural repression that the machinery of which has been operating for decades, that nathan's book powerfully speaks to. so let me start with the west bank, with what nathan laid out and sort of put in a little bit

of human rights context and then sort of step back to to your question. the first thing to understand about the west bank is you have two population groups that live virtually side by side. you have excluding even east jerusalem. you have nearly half a million jewish israelis settlers who are living in settlements. settlements are war crimes under international humanitarian law because of the transfer of one civilian population to territory acquired by war or occupied by war, living side by side around, you know, 2.5 million palestinians. now, these two people, they might live across the street as they do in some areas, they're governed different bodies of law. okay. so if a jewish israeli in a palestine, leon, commits the very same offense, they're tried in different courts, they have different due process. or to be more accurate, jewish israelis have due process. palestinians do not. and they could receive. different sentences for the very same offense. jewish israelis are citizens,

israel. so they have the same idea. they can move back and forth freely. they can vote in elections. they are governed under israeli civil law. palestine indians are under a brutal military occupation. they have green ids, which i'll explain more about in a second. they have limited freedom of movement. they cannot vote in elections for the government that effectively rules over their lives. and it's not just about the dual regimes they live a reality of enforced segregation. so settlements which are built on export of palestinian land, more than one third of the west bank expropriate it. palestinians cannot enter except as laborers bearing special. and so there's enforced segregation. there's these dual of law and with it you have systematic repression in all its manifestations. right depending on what metric you go on. so movement. nathan talked a lot about the different freedom of movement so jewish israelis can move back and forth east jerusalem into israel proper palestinians, on the other hand, need difficult to obtain permits to enter east

jerusalem and to enter israel proper. so just to put that in perspective, probably most everybody in this room could today get on an flight it to ben-gurion, go to the occupied, go to the old city of jerusalem. but the palestinian who might live three kilometers away can't do that, doesn't have the right based on who they are, even they get that permit. they have to go through hundreds, checkpoints, largely built between palestinian communities that can turn a short commute to, work to school into an hours long humiliating ordeal. and as they pointed out, there's also a separation barrier that israel built largely on palestine, indian land that separates thousands palestinians from their communities, hospitals, etc., beyond movement land. it's not just that israel stole the land and gave it for illegal. it has palestinians to live living in what nathan describes as these different enclaves. so basically the west bank has

become bunch of, you know, territorial bantustans or enclaves surrounded by the large settlements and not only that, you know, not only is the israeli government expropriated the land, given it to settlers, but even the resources that there are controlled by the israeli government, received by palestinians on a on a discriminatory basis. and even beyond that, the palestinians who live there, the majority, the west bank, it's effectively impossible to get a building permit. the we did showed between 2016 and 2018, the israeli in the majority of the west under its exclusive control, issued 100 times more demolition orders than building permits for palestinians. all the while, while the illegal settlements expanded and they have demolish every year hundreds of homes, schools, businesses for lacking that nearly impossible to obtain building permit in addition, palestinians live under a brutal military occupation, so killings arbitrary arrest. i mean, this gathering, if we were having this gathering in,

ramallah, it would be illegal and all of us, if we were palestinian, would be subjected to ten year jail sentence under draconian military law for gathering is more than ten people without a and possible to obtain a permit from the army east jerusalem, even though israel is annexed, it has many of these same dynamic. and to give but one example if you're a jerusalem id holder, so you have the coveted blue id that nathan spoke about, even that id, you're a stateless person, you don't have nationality, and you could lose that id card. if you study in the united states, if you marry somebody and move to a different of the west bank. right. so people have to make choices. and there is israeli law on the books. for more than two decades. it allows an israeli citizen or national to marry somebody from anywhere in the world virtually. and give them legal status to live them in israel, but not palestinian from the west bank or east jerusalem. although israel justified this formally under the name of security, our report documents, scores of statements by israeli saying that this is about.

so just to come back to the question of apartheid this is a snapshot of just the west bank in east jerusalem. when i gave you just a snapshot, could do the same thing about gaza. but israel proper. but that systematic we documented the report also talks about why it place. and the short answer is control of demographics and land. you know, basically underlying israeli government policy across israel and palestine is maximum land, minimum palestine. yes. so that systematic repression combined with what are very serious abuses with that intention we found meets the international legal for the crime against humanity apartheid which as it's a legal term, although defined in relation south africa treaties defined as a legal term that basically means systematic oppression by one group of people over another. when done with the intent to maintain a regime of domination by people over another, and when combined with inhumane acts so,

basically inhumane acts, systematic oppression, intent to we found those elements there and that's human rights watch. and that's why there's a consensus in the human rights movement that israel's treatment of palestinian is amounts to apartheid. thank you. i encourage people to the report if you haven't. it's two years old now, but it's still quite and quite relevant in this moment. so here we are, many, many miles from palestine, israel, many, many miles from gaza. but it's very relevant to as americans, as people living in the united states. it comes up in your book and it comes up in your report. can you speak to the billions that the us gives in passing and passing right now? either. either one of you. you whatever the billions that the us gives in support to israel and the degree to which you know us, complicity is allowing the injustice against the palestinians to continue.

i think yeah. no, i think it's a really good question. look, i when you about the united states's role in israel-palestine, there's often this idea of being a broker or of sort of using u.s. influence but the united states is much more that. i mean, the united states, according to a congressional research service report from earlier this year, has given more than $150 billion in military aid to israel since 1948, since the founding of the israeli state. the united states is probably the single global power with the real ability to dictate the outcome of events on the ground and throughout the history of the united states, regardless of administration or party, the united states government has, in effect, you given a green light to the israeli government and in some cases much more than that, to carry out the systematic repression and oppression of palestinian is often being done with us government weapons

support and in all its manifestations. and i think what we've seen obviously in the trump was a more dramatic version of this, but in many cases was was much more of a continuity with longstanding u.s. policy, a fundamental break from it. and i think what we're seen in the last couple of year, a couple years under the biden administration, even in the last month, has reinforced that basic idea. i mean, the most basic thing the united states does across the world when there is a crisis like this, is to call for respecting international law, ending unlawful attacks, condemning abuses when they take place, calling for accountability for those, calling for civilians to have to water electricity, medicine, food. i mean the basic sort of things that a, people need to survive. and the united states position has quite frankly been shameful. there's no real other word to use to describe it.

and they have rightfully condemned the heinous hamas led attack on october seven. but you've not seen a similar condemnation issued the war crimes. and we'll talk about it more that the israeli government has committed, is committing, is continuing to commit in the gaza strip and. human rights watch has had a very clear for a long time that all forms of complicity in the crime against humanity of apartheid and persecution should end. this includes military forms of military assistance and arms support and includes business engagement, bilateral engagement and many you might have seen or some of you may have seen that today. human rights watch issued a call for an arms embargo against the israeli, and that is premised on the real that us weapons will be to commit grave abuses. and there's a risk when it's done knowingly and, significantly of risking complicity and atrocities that are taking place right now.

when add well, i actually was going to just add an anecdote related to what you had said prior which was describing the vulnerability of people jerusalem palestinians in jerusalem of having their residency revoked and this comes up in in abbott's because within this walled off enclave half it was formally annexed by israel in 1967 and half of it was not but if you actually go inside of it as i did many times over the last several years, you can't tell the difference. the part that israel considers within its sovereign territory within annexed east jerusalem and the part that has not been annexed. it is one area of gross neglect. i mean, to give one example when

i on the main road this the single thoroughfare running through this community of 130,000 people today the it is not wide enough for my car to pass at the same time as a bus moving in the opposite direction, which causes enormous congestion. and i literally roll down my window and pull in my side mirror and inch around a bus in order to just pass. and this is how 130,000 people are living day in and day out. and what i wanted to mention about the jerusalem blue eyed and having your residency revoked is that, you know, members of this community, some members of the same family have green ids, some have blue ids. and one of one of abed's abed's

brother is married to a he has a green id and he's married to a woman who has a blue i.d. and he himself is not allowed inside municipal jerusalem. he has a green id, is not allowed to go in. and what they do is they maintain two apartments. they have one apartment that's formerly municipal jerusalem, the half of the enclave that's been formerly annexed because israel send inspectors to make sure that they actually residing within the borders of municipal jerusalem. though this enclave is totally neglected and the municipality basically doesn't go in except as a policing force. the one thing they will go do and check going to do is to check that he his is really residing this apartment. and as soon as they're come through the checkpoint people start calling one another on the

phone and they recognize the car. they know what these look like and they say the inspectors are on the way and people rush to their other and they enter and then they pretend that they've been sitting there for a long time. and the inspectors, the home and lift up towels and clothes and look dust and say, you really live here. and if and if they find that she doesn't really live there, they can take away her blue jerusalem id her to enter the rest of the city the heart of jerusalem to visit family who are on the other side of the wall. she could never see them again without to apply for a permit. so that is the kind of day in and day out of fear that all of these people are subjected to. when you're telling that story, it reminded me of one of my colleagues who went on the

delegation that i mentioned as premier in madison, who's done work on the welfare rights. and reminds me of the kind of invasion of intimate spaces of social workers of of poor women, of color in this country who know they would come in and see if husband is there, if a man is the house and, you know, rummage their things and all of that sort of to prove domesticity according to prescribed, you know, protocols. so you've mentioned ahmed salama again, and he was really supposed to be here with you. he was supposed to be. he was on part of the tour with you. and then the tragedy of october seventh happened. what does that relationship been like as you've written this about the pain, his life? what kind of trust was built? what did you learn and how have you grown in the journey? writing about this man's tragic day in jerusalem? so unfolds honestly for all of you. ahmed had to return home early.

he had to cut the. he was on tour with. me. we were in the uk, in the us together and the in the west bank now and in his community is reminiscent the second intifada communities are closed down. the mobility for palestinians is highly. there is a spike in settler violence in forced displacement of since the beginning of 2022 just prior to october 7th the un at the end of september put out a report saying since the beginning of 2022, over a thousand palestinians had been forcibly, largely by settler militias in the west bank. entire communities moved, and most of the press that describe this process called it a slow

motion ethnic cleansing inside. the central strip of the west bank. and since october alone that was already a huge number, a thousand in a little less than years since october 7th alone, more than 800 more have been forcibly in the west bank. so the old processes are being accelerated under the cover of this war in gaza and abed felt that he had to rush home, be with his family. nobody, you know, almost palestinian family in the west bank, every extended family is relying on higher paying jobs in israel in the settlements, including ahmed's family. and those jobs basically don't exist right now. the israeli employers aren't letting palestinians come to work and, even added son who

works in ramallah for a palestinian employer was told by boss, you can't come to because there's too much settler violence. it's unsafe for to drive on the roads right now. so ahmed felt that he couldn't he couldn't away from his family. you know, there are two exits of this community that he lives in, one at the top toward the rest of jerusalem for blue eyed others to go through. and one at the bottom that both green and blue id holders can exit through. and all it takes is, you know, two soldiers to put put up a gate or a roadblock at these two exits, and that's it. you've trapped 130,000 people and. it's like that throughout the west bank. and so ahmed returned to be with his family and couldn't with you tonight. but the process for me you know is it was a very very intimate

process unlike any other reporting i've done. i spent much of the last four years of my life with ahmed and it wasn't just a matter reporting, but, you know, grieving together. and i, you know, deeply grateful to him for trusting. and i have to say, you know, i was actually very nervous about how he would respond to the book. you know, it's it's very uncommon for writer of any nonfiction magazine article or book to share the work with the subject before it's published. it's basically never done. and in this particular case, because of how much abbott had shared with me, i really considering doing. and in end, i decided not to.

i was to worried that i would compromise the work by having to litigate, you know, kinds of aspects of the book. so i didn't share it with him until there was a hard cover at the end of august. and i had been losing sleep over how. he would respond to the book and he called about two days after receiving it and told me that had read just the first part and the first part deals mainly his love lives and he called and said, you know, everything here is true, but there are a lot more details than i thought there would be. and and he said, know everyone in this community is going to come after he's revealing.

i've got a sister in law betrayed him and who he's never confronted in person who lives next door he's about the biggest political in the west bank fatah and not so favorable term arms he's he's revealing many many intimate details of his life his family's life and and so i said to him, you know, i'm really sad, concerned to hear you say that, you know, please just finish the book and let's after you finished it and and so he did. and was i myself sleep for the next few nights and he called me back and he said, you know, ivan, i understand what you're doing with this book and and i, i i think it's important and.

i accept i accept what you're doing? and i'm ready to face the consequences. you know, friends still friends. so that's a good segue way to invite you to read a small section from the book, if you will. yeah. you know, nathan is a wonderful writer, too, so. so the part i'm going to read is at the scene of the crash where one woman, her name is huda de boer. she's a doctor and she works for the un refugee agency for palestinians. unwra, and she has been helping to rescue many children from. this burning bus. and there is another character

who's mentioned here is a teacher named ola, who together with a man named salim, the two of them went inside this burning bus repeatedly pulled kids out. so i'll i'll begin here. nearly 20 minutes had passed since huda and her staff had come upon the burning bus. flames and smoke were pouring from the smashed windows. who driver abu faraj was directing traffic, keeping an open path for the evacuees, and telling drivers of cars to turn back. the crowd had grown so large that huda could no longer see the driver and the teacher she salim had pulled from the front the bus. she was focused, the children gently carrying them with one of the u.n. nurses to the cars that had stopped at the accident site. many of the drivers had volunteer to transport burn

victims and stood ready to race to the nearest hospital, which for most of them was in ramallah. the hospitals in jerusalem far better, but only those with blue ids could reach them. a few of the drivers did have blue ids and some took off in the direction of hadassah at mount scopus in jerusalem. the majority those green ids went in the opposite along the flooded road to ramallah. nearly all the children have been brought off the bus. salim, who had who had by now gone in and out of the flames several times, saw that ola, the teacher and his partner and the rescue was trapped beneath the front seat and her leg was burning. but by the time he got to her, it was too late. she was gone. he carried a ruler from the bus and placed her on the ground. her nephew, sadi, watched in the rain well and covered her with

his coat. in all of this, salim had felt nothing not even as someone in the crowd grabbed at his arm and pinched him. one of who? the nurses yelled to him that his jacket was on fire. he shouted back that it was not the nurse put it out. he went to climb back into the bus. the few children still inside were no longer alive. the last boy, salim, pulled out, facing down, crouched behind the frame of a seat. he was still wearing a which salim held. pick the boy up, stepping out of the bus for the final. salim broke out, weeping shouting that he should have saved more somehow. not a on his head was burned. abu faraj stood unmoving in shock, as if mesmerized raised by the flames. who to turn to the nurse beside her and saw that her face was black and streaked by rain. she realized, must look the

same. they were soaked in weary, and there was nothing more for them to do. when a palestinian ambulance finally arrived, most of the injured children had already been evacuated. huda didn't even notice it. the bus was still crackling with flames and there was much shouting and commotion. not a single firefighter, officer or soldier had come. huda wanted to follow the children. she found her team and they returned to the unwra van dam. the pregnant pharmacist was still inside. inconsolable abu faraj started dropping off everyone at home as huda called around and confirmed that most of the children were in ramallah. then she phoned her. unrwa's. he didn't understand. the magnitude of the accident and demanded that the team turn and go to channel ahmar, where he would cut their pay. huda refused and he should cut just her salary.

no one else's. after stopping for a quick shower, who set off for the hospital taking the clinic's worker with her? when they got there, word spread. huda had been at the crash. a great many parents and other relatives sought her out, asking whether she had seen a boy with a spiderman backpack. a girl with her hair in yellow ribbons who had told them all the same thing. the children had been covered in soot and she couldn't tell what they were wearing. going from room to room, huda checked on the injured children, soothing them. since leaving the bus, she had felt something nagging at her. she was sure the kindergartners had been silent, at least early in their ordeal. now, at the bed of one girl who to asked her why that was. why she had heard no sound. we were so scared. the girl said. when we saw the flames, we thought we had died. we thought we were in hell.

so very, very powerful. particularly when we think of tragedies happening to children. i think that is a segway to what's happening right now in gaza. right. so. you know, the of october seven were tragic and lives were lost in the us media told us some of the stories of children who were killed. young people who were at a music festival who were killed. but we don't get the full humanity of palestinians who are now being bombed and ethnically cleansed in gaza who are being forced to leave their homes and. then the pathways by which they leave are being bombed. and half the people in gaza are children. children like.

abed, son so tell us a little bit about. how we make sense of the siege of gaza today and and we can also say what's happening in of voices being raised all over the world. thousands of people from sydney, london to dc to new york. but but us an insight if will. yeah. when? when. rabbi rosen opened and sort of mentioned how we about this event and you know as as we have all rang the alarm bell if a month ago you had told me we'd be seeing a reality. 10,000 people in gaza killed, 4000 children killed. the scale of devastation in that we've seen. i would not have been able to fathom that. so when you talk about the reality in gaza, i mean, it's it's just hard to even describe

in words. so you have to point to million people caged in a 25 by seven mile open air. prison 16 years that there's been a ban on movement nobody in nobody out unless you fall within a narrow band of humanitarian exemptions. so of gaza's population has never left gaza because the majority actually at half are children. the majority are have lived all or most of their under this crushing closure. so you have a situation in small area where israeli government has relented mostly for one month consists cently been dropping heavy aerial bombs, heavy artillery on the population. you have no safe place go in gaza and no safe way to get anywhere. this bombing reduced and we've seen this an interviews, we've done video footage.

we satellite imagery. we've looked at reduced entire blocks and, large parts of neighborhoods to rubble. you talk to people in gaza, they tell you whether i live is purely deprived of chance because. that's the scale of bombardment. 10,000 people killed, more than 4000 kids. hospitals have been struck. schools have struck. refugee camps have been struck. you have a situation in which beyond just the scale, human rights watch, we've documented the use of white phosphorus and an incendiary material that is inherently indiscriminate would dropped in populated areas because it causes lifelong suffer rank and excruciating burns to people in the surrounding area beyond the use of white phosphorus. have these conventional bombs that have been dropped and beyond just the bombardment bombardment which is difficult enough to fathom which has led

to 1.5 million people being displaced, the majority gaza residents, nearly half the homes have been destroyed or damaged. in addition to that, the israeli government has cut electricity and water to the entire civilian population and fuel for point 2 million people. israel could flick the switch right now and electricity and water to the population but it's denying it to an entire civilian population for the acts carried out heinous acts carried out again by hamas led fighters. is collective punishment that is a war crime under international law. it is also blocked all but a trickle of humanitarian aid, food from reaching the civilian population. that is also war crime. international law allows you to monitor but to entirely block aid starvation as a weapon of war is also a war crime. so you have a population that has been without electricity, without water, without food, medicine, under relentless bombardment.

in addition, the israeli government ordered. 1.1 million people, all of north gaza, to leave their homes. no place to go, no safe place to get anywhere. and they, in essence, have treated the areas that remain like the jabalya refugee camp as a free fire zone. in essence, there are people and we've documented this, we published a report last week about people with who aren't able to evacuate or who, you know, patients at hospitals, older people and they can't evacuate. but israel's saying you don't evacuate, we're going to treat you as a combatant. and their actions suggest that they're following that policy. all of this doesn't in isolation. the israeli government has said they have article ated that they are punishing, that there should be accountability for happened on october 7th because those were heinous crimes. but that's not what the israeli government is talking. they're talking about revenge. they're talking about punishing the entire population and holding them responsible. from israel's president to

defense minister, the government, they are signaling to the world their intent to, commit mass atrocities and. that's what we're seeing on the ground today. and when i think about the story of ahmed salama and milad, his son and i, you know, hear about the spiderman backpack and i and i and you think about that story. i about the 4000 kids who also had backpacks, people who were found in the rubble. by the way, israel's also apparently cut to telecommunications and i want you to imagine what this means just for a second. there are hundreds people buried under the rubble, including. when you cut telecommunication lines, it means a phone call can't be made to a first responder that may be able to pull a kid out of the rubble so kids die because of this. apparently deliberate policy. that what we're dealing with as we speak today. it is difficult to even fathom and as bad as ugly as it is,

there are signs that there are further mass atrocities to the world must act. to. do you want to add anything? i mean, it's it's sobering and sobering and i mean, the good news other day, some good news, i suppose is a very low bar. but -- durbin did step forward and call for a cease fire but the fact that so have not even done that. i mean your larger political analysis is of the situation there just call for a call for a cease fire at this seems to be a bottom. so i want to share something that share through others at on november 4th, the demonstration in washington, d.c., and then segway to questions after that. so as people know, there was a massive mobilization in washington november 4th. many some people this room may

have gone. many people know went and groups that i work with the rising majority movement for black lives, blacks for palestine and scholars for social justice were there and i offered a statement and some reflections that i want to share with you. and then we will open it up for questions. but it's titled a black feminist statement of solidaire and of the people of gaza and the struggle for free palestine. who are my people? this crucible moment of war and genocide. as we witness the dirty process of ethnic cleansing unfold before the of the world, who are my people as tiny brown children are bombed in southern gaza as flee their homes following the evacuation route prescribed by their bombers. who are my people as my friends gives birth in total darkness in city and incubators are shut down as the power is cut off hospitals throughout the strip. no food, no water, no fuel.

just bombs and all. tzara. whole buildings are leveled. apartments where families cooked meals, lovers made love. children play games and girls dance with their friends are all gone now. there is a hole in the heart of jabu jabalya refugee camp. that hole is a bomb crater beneath which unknown and unnamed bodies are entombed. a broken man cradles his daughter, whose little has also been broken. a woman wails for the loss of her son. nobody have been found. who are my people in this crucible moment of violence and destruction in the name of defense. i was born a black woman and i became a palestinian, wrote our beloved sister, the feminist june jordan. in that simple quote, she essentialist notions of identity and blood and belonging and challenges us all to be bigger than that.

who are your people? ella baker would ask visitors and stranger. who claims you? and who do you claim in this world? and most importantly, who do you stand with in times of crisis? despair. we do not need dna tests or genealogy searches to know who are people are in this moment. if i choose to stand on the of freedom, my people are oppressed. people all over the world. people who are suffering under varied and varied and violent forms of injustice and oppression. from haiti to hebron. from birmingham to bethlehem, from shot to prison. northern israel to stateville prison. in central illinois. i claim as my people, those who are standing up to occupation, dispossession, hetero patriarchy and white supremacy, colonialism and settler colonial wisdom, antisemitism and islamophobia, environmental pillage, carceral violence and authoritarianism.

my people are those truth tellers and freedom fighters of the world, those speaking truth to power in dozens of languages, silent vigils by the women in black on street in barcelona and tokyo. in madrid. saying no to war and occupation iswhat. the queer palestinian freedom fighters saying the liberation of palestine must also include them. courageous voices inside the halls of power, refusing to be silenced. rashida. cory. ilhan, we are with you because you are with us and passionate jewish protesters that shut down grand central station in new york city and the statue of liberty insisting not in our name. and that never again means again for anyone. so so. so we will open it up for questions for nathan and omar

and if people just your hand i think we have a floating microphone phone please. oh, you're going to borrow a microphone. okay. we're going to really share? and i just invite you to your questions. you know, succinct. i know we have a lot of feelings about this and you've been listening patiently. i really appreciate your discussion. i was in palestine a year ago and it's really i mean, just to see what's going on, the incredible tolerance of the palestinian people, the fact that, you know, i remember hearing a story about how they tear down about 99 out of 100 houses of the palestinians. the palestinians will go to court and the courts will be stacked against them. and they it's amazing the tolerance of it. and it's amazing. there are more rebellious types of actions. i'm wondering if there's any i come from a jewish background, went to israel in 68 and i was a

zionist in those days. i've learned a few things since then, but the question i have is, did the israelis i mean, i know there are some israeli laws that get it. i think what is it that, solum and some other groups, but is there any like chance that? the average israeli come around and realize nationalism and racism will not work and. there's no chance for them to have having a double having a22 state solution ain't going to work. you have a swiss cheese situation. the west bank, right. so so they need to have one state living together. is that ever going to work or is it going to take generations? it seems like it will, but what's the chances of that? i like to think is a chance, but i don't know. thanks. we want take a step. so they're going to take a couple of at a time just to get more people. i think. this woman right here had a

question and somebody back there. i i've been to west bank four times in the last years and on the last two visits, we settlements and to our groups surprised they were filled with america. so my question is do we know how many dual citizens are in and on the west bank and what does what their impact on this conflict. can you one more okay. one more. they juggle three questions right. hi. thank you, nathan. i'm a big fan of your book. the only language they understand was influential for me, and i wanted to ask a question in relation to that. you argue in book that israel often changes course, moves

towards reconciliation with palestinians or ending the occupation, pressure from the united states or, from violence. and i know there are the u.s. doesn't use its greatest leverage, which is military aid to israel every year, which i think should at minimum be conditioned. but i wonder and i've heard some right ers arguing that israel should stop taking u.s. military aid. they don't need it anymore. so i'm wondering if you think that it would even at this point in changing israel's actions. so i'll take the first and the third kind of together because they're related. you know, the the my first book is called the only language they understand. and it's about the concessions that have been made by and the palestinian movement over the course of.

the history of this of this conflict and how all of concessions came about through coercion, through the application of force in one way or another, whether was violence or the threat of sanctions or some other mechanism, diplomatic pressure. and i show how every single israeli territory will withdrawal, including lebanon, came under threat of force. and you know, i've been asked a lot about that book since october. seventh doesn't to october 7th when we're looking at perhaps the opposite of israeli concessions we're looking at israel in expelling many palestinians from communities in the west bank, eradicating entire communities. and new discussion of establishing settlements in

gaza. you know, aren't we seeing the opposite of your of your thesis. and i think that the answer is, first of all, it's too early. say these things don't happen overnight. you know, many people credit israel's withdrawal from sinai and the peace agreement with egypt to. the 1973 war which occurred, you know, several years earlier. i actually think that today think this moment, first of all, is an enormous historical moment. i think it is going to have decades long repercussions for both societies and my belief is that. we will look back on this as a turning point that will result in israel trying to find some

new kind of because it's very clear to every israeli that returning to the model of managing conflict doesn't work and work. and every israeli an answer from the government of how are we not going to have another seventh? how do we prevent that? and the answer to that question be we raised gaza. we killed tens of thousands of palestinians. nobody buy that. you know, it's happened on a smaller scale several times in gaza. and it didn't bring any peace or security to israelis. and so for the first time, we have a situation in which the palestinian issue is at the forefront of every israeli mind. you know, many of the last elections, the palestinian was at the very bottom of agenda in israel in the protests against

the judicial reform, the palestinian was very marginal, was a small group within those protests that was trying to make it a more part of the protests. but they were marginal. and today i think it's likely that those kinds of protests are going to resume. and when they do, there will be no denying that the palestinian issue is the issue for israel and and think that already hearing very senior israelis talking about the the necessity of making major concessions not the idea of releasing all palestinian prisoners in exchange for the hostages which a lot of senior israelis are now calling for. but even you know a former managing director of the main israeli oriented think tank in

ss as a general by the name of udi dekel is, now being appointed as a special adviser to the army on planning for the day after and. he said clearly on the record just a couple of days ago, going to have to make major concessions for a broader political vision for the future that's it's obvious. so that may to pass it may not but there now among meant of greater openness to thinking of different kinds possibilities that just didn't exist a month ago. with with respect to the question about whether one state or two states is possible. you know, i think that the support israel has all the power relative to the palestinians and

the support among israelis for one state has always been infinitesimal. and today it's even smaller. so i think that it's very hard for me to imagine how you see a path to that. out of out october 7th. but can imagine other kinds of of arrangements that could come out of out of this. nathan on a lot of panels together and usually i'm the optimist and he's the pessimist. i feel like that was more optimistic. the first part answer that i would give. so question about israelis and where they stand. nathan i have a very close friend had hagai lived the former director at cnn and i've done enough events with him when we when he's asked this question of, you know, where israeli society is. he will tell you voices like ours, like the voice of b'tselem, the human rights community.

nobody listens to us in israeli. why? because for years, the right says take more land, kill more palestinians arrest more palestinians, and they face no consequences. so if you can implement an agenda of what the calls jewish supremacy, an agenda of domination of one people over another, and face consequences, why would a rational voter vote for anything but that? so what hagai would say if he was the third chair here with us is he would tell us if you want to give us a chance in israeli society, we need that. going to the third question, real external, so that there are consequences so we can actually have a fighting chance. and let me tell you, i've been in this job for seven years and i've met some of the most activists i've met on this. are really courageous, brave israeli activists that are fighting every single day human rights defenders. let's remind folks, you that the day this government came to 27

israeli human rights groups, a statement saying that that the government has been implementing a policy of apartheid towards palestinians 27 israeli human rights organizations. the consensus on apartheid includes israeli civil society organizers. now, the problem is the group was speaking very, very tiny, and they have real representation in the political spectrum. there is. no, i mean, before october 7th, october six. if you were to take 120 knesset members, i mean, how many how many would use the word occupied to talk about the west bank? probably, what, ten, 15? like if that, you know, so you're talking about a political. system that doesn't have room for that. but so i have faith, a lot of faith in that group of people that are fighting very courageously. but they're they're under attack. i mean, my former israeli had a piece in the new york times a couple of days ago, michael, start talking about how since october 17th, there's now really, you know, in a

systematic effort to after voices of dissent, mostly palestinians of israel, but also including israeli voices. there was concern about that even before the events of october 7th. so that's how to answer that. and then just on the the dual settlers, i don't have a long answer dual nationals to say there's not good statistics this. but i think the question again reminds us all of a reality where and it's important to always put our place in this thing right that you know somebody who is european jewish could tomorrow or american jewish go tomorrow and go to israel, become a citizen and palestinian refugees, which, by the way, are the majority of gaza's population. so most people forget 70% of gaza's populace nation are themselves refugees who were expelled or forced to flee their homes in 1948. so when israel orders them to leave their home temporarily. then you'll be allowed to return for many palestinians. this harkens back to what they were told 75 years ago, and they've been stuck with the keys

to their home, waiting for them to that. right. so it means extra it sits extra heavy, but again, a reality in which somebody who hasn't lived there can move and become a citizen while a palestinian who might be gaza, who can see the there from in many cases because a of them lived close by can't go there because of who they are. right. so we know in israel you know, destroys all these homes and says we're going to move them to sinai. palestinians say, why not move us back to our homes? you know, they're right there across across across the fences. but it's all just a reminder of just keeping in perspective. last thing i'll say on the on the last just about you military aid is just i think to really underscore the point of how us arms sales to israel are there is no other country, the world for which there's no monitoring of the aid. there is no scrutiny, there's no before the aid money goes. all you know we're saying when human watch today calls for an arms embargo is treat israel the

very way you treat all other recipient use of u.s. arms. that's not to say the u.s. has a great record on that countries, but that is to say that it's so exceptional that there isn't even the most basic modal crumb vetting oversight. sorry, i just i neglected answer that part of the third question. so i just wanted to add, i do think it's the case that israel relies wise on u.s. military aid less than it did in the past. it's undoubtedly true that the israeli economy is much stronger and that that source of leverage is less than it was the past. that said, it's very the us. israel does not want to consider having some other great power patron. it regards it as a top national security priority to maintain this tight alliance with the united states and on a technical

level, the idea of transferring or with weapons systems to a different, you know, patron is a is very expensive thing to do and i will say that it's not just the military. i mean, it's the vetoes in the security council. it's the behind the scenes pressure. any some european parliament wants to boycott settlement goods example the us is working behind the scenes to pressure its allies not to do it and that's enormously valuable and as important as the as the military assistance. now we have a we have one back there and then two up here. about in 2005. aaron david miller wrote an article on the united role.

he was a piece involved in peace negotiations earlier. and in that he said the united states has never been an honest broker for the palestinians. they have acted as israel's over those this succeeding years. we've seen more and more unconditional support for israel. the arabs, of course, have abandoned the palestinians and europe has moved more to the right. biden has recently unequivocally supported israel and only under intense pressure, started talking about the needs the palestinians. so the united there most arabs

and muslims have lost even faith in america in terms of acting as a broker. so who can do this? and this role in exerting pressure on israel to honor what the great organization jewish voices for peace has done in terms of advocating for a jewish state within the 67 borders and fulfilling the promises of the palestinian state that were made decades ago. and only if the united states or some other significant power holds them to account will they ever get their. so and again i just want to give a shout out to jewish voices for peace. i'm neither jewish muslims. i love jewish voices for peace. i've been a member h r w thank you for all you organizations.

i get very emotional. okay, for uttering honoring the humanity of peoples. thank you. thank you. so we're going to take three, i think we're going to do a stack. thank you for a shout out to jvp. thank you. i found your book very irritating, but it was the irritations of everyday life and i a myself older i get as some of us can identify that i think. but it's a wonderful book and i have i've read a lot of books on the middle east and this is the only one that really gets in to the irritations of everyday life and how the palestinians have to cope with that. so thank for the book. i'm wondering if what you think of middle east generally, not just israel, palestine, but the failed states right now of syria, lebanon, iraq, libya, you

can probably add to the list, but is the international crisis group that you worked for, are they monitoring all of that? and i agree. i it feels like we're at a turning point. and i wonder if you could talk more that in terms of the region and how is that going to how can arab states help us correct our miserable policy on the middle east? you so much. one more. ms. here. my name is mariam with the chicago palestine film festival. i wanted to speak to obviously the important ins of centering palestinian narrative and documenting palestinian stories, especially now, but also the past 75 years of occupation. sorry can you hear me better? i think obviously those living in the united states see a deep

bias in. our media coverage on palestine and often even a censorship. so particularly in your roles as a writer and as someone documenting human rights violations, how do you see the path forward to be able to bring these stories to, the mainstream media and to your everyday american who's not maybe necessarily seeking out this information. so do you want to take a couple of. so i'll take the third one first just because it's in my mind. you know, i wrote the book out of a sense of hopelessness in the kind of work that i had previously been doing, which was more in the sphere of ngos and trying to influence policymakers

and. really, it's what people might call a top down approach. try and influence elite opinion and have elites change the policy. and i met many people who are, you know, now, for example, working in the biden administration. and they privately would agree with me on of the things that i wrote and said and told me. and they would to me, frankly, there is no way that i'm actually going to act on it. and reason i'm not going to act on it is. first of all, the the kind of thing that i can realistically is a tiny little bureaucrat. step that you would laugh at. and that tiny little bureaucrat step could cost me my certainly going to cost me enormous headache least jeopardize my my

job and i'm going to get you know dozens if not more calls from congresspersons and going to have to go and meet them and. i'm going to have to listen to them and. and i i just have zero incentive to do it for something that actually isn't going to change anything. and, you know, i heard that enough times that it became clear to me that exactly as your question implies, you know, the most important thing actually is changing public opinion, because then the congresspersons won't be calling this official for that reason. they'll be calling for not doing enough. and and and so was part of the motivation me in kind of changing my career and actually trying to write a work of narrative nonfiction that could be appealing to people who aren't even necessarily interested in this real

palestine, who might just want to hear a story that resonates them as parents and. and so i think that, you know, more of that needs to be done, but it's a very long. as far as the first question goes. i mean, i agree with that kind of bleak geopolitical analysis of where, you know, the states of, the arab league are headed or where biden is. so so i think that that's that's all correct. i mean, the things look very, very bad for any kind of prospect of pressure in israel to change the situation. that said, as i as i mentioned

before, i do think that october 7th itself and this war has resulted in a totally new landscape in which itself, as during the first intifada, regardless any outside pressure. now has recognized that this isn't working. and rabin was prime minister who implemented is on the record. he was the defense during the first intifada and and he said clearly that his view point changed on this sustainability of endless occupation. the desirability of israeli soldiers being in palestinian city centers. and he wanted to change that. and he was forced to change his mind, because the costs of doing it, it became ungovernable and. whenever there is a discussion, you know, what can the u.s. do, what can others do?

my own view is that change has to come from many, many directions at once. i think there really does have to be change in the situation on the ground. the cost of the occupation has to be perceived as costly than it has been. and in addition. but that's that's internally in terms of making the territory and governable. mass civil disobedience of nonparticipation. palestinians their id cards and saying we refuse this system, you know, that kind a thing. and and also in parallel, there has to be a change u.s. policy. and in european policy and in, you know, global movements of of solidarity to try and achieve some kind of end to this to this bloodshed. and regarding the second question, i really wasn't expecting to get a compliment

for for the book after after the first sentence. but but thank you. yeah. you know, i, i think that, you know, as was stated in the first question, you basically the arab states are betraying the palestinians and i'm afraid that even now isn't isn't over. i think even now the saudis are prepared to do normalization with israel at a very price for israel, not a small price for the u.s. u.s. maybe i'll just share a couple of quick thoughts listening to the questions. so maybe starting with the regional one, and then i'll have to go to the first and the third. so one one thought to share is i used cover egypt for for human rights watch and i've worked in different parts of the regions. and there is a certain arc of history in the arab world i

think is often forgotten. most people, when they think the 2011 protests in egypt, they think of the internet and social media. you talk to most egyptians. and one of the more common streams that lead from to 2011 was actually the protests in solidarity with the second intifada and palestine and that was one of the few spaces where people took to the streets and protested. now, what flipped in 2011 and generalized and grossly. but if you if you'll permit me to do so was many people in the arab world said you know wheat let's fix our repressive regimes our own countries and then let's go you know, deal with the situation of the dispossessed and repression of palestinians ten years later in 21, we've almost gone back to the early 2000 model because if you're a saudi activist trying to fight against repression in your own country, who are the people pushing to safeguard the three letter acronym that runs that country. it is the very same people pushing to support the israeli

government's agenda, right? so there is a sense in the region of, okay, actually, maybe we do need to deal with the question of palestine so that we have more of a path to go back. so it's an interesting shift. i'm not saying it's happening but i think many people are understanding as the regime, as the repressive regimes in the region grow closer, the repressed peoples, there are opportunities for more ways to kind of strategize and think together again post october 7th, how that remains to be seen, but can tell you throughout the arab world, whatever is happening in the united states, this is a profound moment in the region. you cannot speak to anybody in the arab world, but anything but gaza i mean, that's what's on every all my colleagues who cover the other countries in the region. many the region, you know, they have their own crises but but this is what is dominating conversation to the first question what i was going to say is to just kind of challenge this question of who's the broker going to be. and i think it pushes all of us, push ourselves out of the world

of this is a conflict between two equal parties. and i think, yes, there that bleak picture and this is where the normal nathan pessimism i'm not optimism will come there's another thing happening in the world right which is there is a much more growing global consensus that israel's of palestinians amounts to apartheid. it's not just in the human rights community. south african, namibia, countries that experienced apartheid, as governments have said, the treatment of palestinians apartheid, the entire african too, the human rights council, the entire african union, indonesia, malaysia the entire organization of islamic, the arab league. right. former european foreign ministers. the former u.n. secretary general. the former attorney general of. israel. the former muslim netanyahu whole point, the mossad director have all said israel's treatment of palestinians amounts apartheid. the u.n. in december asked the international court of justice to issue an advisory opinion about the consequences of israel's occupation. 57 states made submissions, and

i believe around the numbers around just short of about 22 states mentioned apartheid in their submissions representing from across the global south from america from sub-saharan africa. so my point to say this is the world sees western double standards for what it is. when you say rightfully that russia's cutting off electricity and water to ukraine is a war crime, when you call for accountability and in that situation, when you cite occupation international humanitarian law but you fail to implement those same principles when it comes to israel-palestine people see it and there more of a challenge coming from the globe. so the is it who's the broker going to be the challenge is how we as more people see reality for what it is for those i'm seeing to an american. so those who know the story of the emperor wears no clothes right. this is how i see it. we the emperor wears. and of course, we know what the

reality is of israel streaming, the palestinians. and more and more people are recognizing reality for what it is. a daily of structural violence is not a conflict between two between equals. a system methodically engineered to ensure the domination of by one people over another is not a democracy with a side occupation. a 30 year peace process will not alone systematically dismantle structural repression. right. you know, systematically denying millions of palestinians their fundamental rights because of who they are is not simply an abuse of occupation. so i think more and more people are recognizing that and that is going to force eventually states that bury their head in the sand mentioned the example of europe i tell you, i've met with probably three dozen governments or more on. our apartheid report. no one is challenged. our findings no has said you got it wrong. they tell you in meetings, many of them will tell you, i agree with you, but i can't on it. so and that brings to the last

question and nathan answered it directly is we have to shift the way we work right with what's happens is october 7th. yes, we have to speak to the biden administration because. they have leverage and we're talking about mass atrocities that need to be stopped. obviously, we engage that, but much of the shift in human rights watch and our focus is to say we're not just going to focus on the us administration, we might focus more on congress or we might focus more on progressive organizations or speaking grassroots audiences, talking to the south africans and the brazils, talking to countries and voices, constituents. can we get five countries in europe to recognize apartheid? can we get, you know, several dozen states to sign a statement? so it's a long road. i think it remains to be seen how october 7th will affect all of this. and the aftermath. but that's the fight in. and we need you in that fight us. and i encourage you all to read nathan's book. we have a human rights watch community here in chicago. you can see my colleagues, justin adler afterwards and, you

know, hopefully we can do our part because we can't we can't keep having what's happening on the ground right now. i don't know how people in gaza are surviving. are our friends and colleagues in israel are still shaken to the core by what happened on october seven. and so something needs to change. sorry. i want a final word. so we want to you for being in this conversation with us tonight. i mean, could we could go on much further and? you know, i'm trying to lean into to to although, you know, there's the anti fascist antonio gramsci. she had a quote, the of the intellect optimism of the will. so the optimism of the will is that we keep fighting even though. you know, it it bleak and and we appropriately should be very