i first speaker is dr. richard blackett, andrew jackson, professor of history emeritus at, vanderbilt university,

discussing fugitive slaves and the coming of the civil war at the end of presentation. the speaker will take questions from the floor. we have two roving microphones. if you have a question or indeed a comment, please raise your hand and the microphone will find you. so further ado, please welcome me. help. welcome dr. blackett to the podium. dr. richard blackett. thank you. okay. good to see so many people gathered in the morning on a

saturday morning, of all things. uh, makes reminds me of my. 9:00 class as an undergraduate when people were forced to be. huh. okay. i wish to use to fuze fugitive slave incidences as to our discussion today. the first involve the failed attempt to escape on the pearl from washington, d.c. in april 1848. the second the successful freeing of daniel webster otherwise known as daniel danger. freed from philadelphia in april, 1859. they provide a useful symmetry. the on the eve of the discussion about the need for a more stringent fugitive slave law, the attempted escape from washington was just one of a series of dramatic escapes that,

including henry, sprung from this city. william and ellen craft, macon, georgia. and a number of slaves from kentucky who settled in michigan. dangerfield came at the end of the decade racked by disputes over the return of this set of escaped slaves. late one evening in april, this the pole slipped into the potomac river, not far from the white house, with an estimated 77 slaves sleeping, seeking their freedom. the ship under captaincy of daniel drake in philadelphia had been hired by william chaplin of upstate new york, an anti-slavery agent who had moved to washington to replace charles story, who had died in a baltimore prison. charged with helping the enslaved to freedom. among those assisting drayton

were to free blacks paul jennings and daniel bill. the 77 enslaved on board was estimated to worst $2 million in today's money. drayton was hoping to reach the of the chesapeake bay long before the escapees were missed. but adverse winds and, currents slowed the ship's progress. they were becalmed for long periods. given the authorities time to pursue the pearl, which was soon overtaken and the escapees returned to jail in the city. crowds of angry citizens gathered outside the prison and in front of the national era. the city's antislavery newspaper, edited by amelia bailey, who had earlier been forced to flee cincinnati ahead of an angry anti-slavery. congress debated attempted escapes, southerners focusing much their anger on joshua

giddens, the ohio whig who had visited drayton in prison when. one of the slaves was asked why she had chosen to leave a good home, she replied. and i want you to keep this in mind. i wanted liberty, wouldn't you? so it devastates. in response to that captured the enslaved conception of freedom. john calhoun sought south carolina's lead in slave holding voice in the senate captured. the political significance of the event. here he said in congress, there's but one question that can destroy this union and our institutions and that is this very same slave question. within two years congress would pass a new fugitive slave law. ten years later. black wilderness artists and members of the black community of philadelphia and harrisburg, pennsylvania played a critical role in the release of a man with the interest.

a black man with the interest, the name of daniel webster. at the time, webster was living with family in harrisburg, where was arrested on a warrant issued by a local commissioner. webster was accused of escaping from his owner in virginia five years earlier. words of his arrest was telegraphed to friends in philadelphia and a number of opponents of slavery in the state house of pennsylvania began in search of witnesses, testify in webster's behalf. five african-american witnesses traveled from harrisburg, including in the 60 year old dr. william jones and his doctor, his honorific who had long played an active role in the community's resistance to the all claim to have known webster a year before his owner claimed he had escaped. scores of philadelphia supporters arrived early for the

hearing. all the seats available in the cramped commissioner's office. included some of the leading black and white figures in the state's abolitionist movement. attorneys who volunteered to appear for webster employed delaying tactics, including demanding that the hearing be moved to a larger room. so some more members, the community could attend. a large crowd of blacks gathered in the streets outside, threatening to storm the hearing room and an estimated 300 police officers were on hand. some webster supporters were arrested for the disorderly conduct, which, according to one observer, were only, he said, aggravated public feeling. the hearing lasted until 5:00. the following yet most of the crowds outside remained unwatched during a bitterly cold april night. the lawyer for the claimant argued that once the details of

the ownership and flight were established, when the fugitive fled was immaterial, it was sufficient that all witnesses from virginia knew webster, knew he was a slave, and knew he escaped, that they were all from the same county where. webster was enslaved with all that all for the better, said the lawyer. why? he asked the commissioner. no white men brought to corroborate the evidence given by the black witnesses from harrisburg who testified in webster's behalf, as was done in other cases. defense counsel raised the question of identity as way of testing, the reliability of the warrant under which webster was arrested. he demanded webster be measured to determine his height. it a detail included in the warrant for his recapture. the measurement, however, proved inconclusive. but it and the testimony of his friends from, harrisburg must have raised some some troubling

questions about legitimacy of his former owners claim. when the commissioner ruled in favor webster the crowds in and the hearing room were surprised but jubilant. his decision turned on differences between the supposed date of webster's escape and those of black witnesses. espy the elderly. dr. jones, who produced a workbook to show webster had helped to build his home months before he was said to have escaped by. by acting in unison. the black communities with the aid of write abolitionist supporters had defied the law. really a rare occasion in this period. let us explore some of the consequences of both as an unrest for an understanding of how fugitives by their actions helped to undermine a system that had been in existence since the adoption of the

constitution. it is useful to recall the words of article four, clause three of the constitution known as the fugitive slave clause. although neither the words fugitives slaves are used instead, the clause reads no person held a service or labor in state under the laws thereof. escaping into another shall in consequence of any law of regius of or regulations, then be discharged charge from such service of labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due. that's one of the reasons that i never became a lawyer. notice notice no mechanism is provided for. how returns are to happen in the previous clause, which involves the return of fugitive from justice. such a mechanism is clearly laid out. the lack of such mechanisms

quickly became apparent. it was addressed in the first fugitive slave law of 1793. enforcement relied heavily on the states which the fugitive slaves had escaped. it quickly became apparent, particularly to slaveholding, that the new law lacked teeth. before the ink had dried the search for for a stronger law was set in motion. the bills in the house and adopted in 1870 and for instance, addressed the growing insecurity of slave property in the border states. under the proposed law, slave holders could go to court in their state and prove ownership of an escapee. with the stamp of legal approval, approval they could reclaim the runaway through the requisition on the governor of the state in which the formerly enslaved had taken refuge under

the habeas would have no force. there would be no trial by jury. it would be a penal offense for state officers to decline to enforce the law. the bill passed the house, but the senate, although it agreed, imposed a four year limit on this application. the house, however, would reject it, and that bill failed to pass. another bill was was offered in both the house and senate in 1821. in the wake of the missouri compromise. but it never came to a vote. while the slaveholding interests failed, enact a more stringent federal that could that would guarantee the return of absconding slaves. northern states added insult to injury by passing a series of what was called personal liberty laws that further curtail the

effectiveness of the 7093 law. some of these laws require that anyone accused of being a slave was entitled to a hearing before a jury. pennsylvania's 1847 law, for instance, denies slave holders the use of the state's prison to all escapees awaiting extradition. this had real, practical significance at a time when there no federal prisons. when in august 1851, the harrisburg commissioner remanded a escapee to maryland. the acting for the enslaved the enslaved looked for a secure place to hold the enslaved while waiting, awaiting the next train to maryland. during the night, members of the black community set the hotel on fire. the fire was detected and extinguished before any harm come to the occupants. the next day, the agent went on to maryland with the slave.

the costs covered by the federal treasury. whenever slavery existed, then slave escaped in search of freedom. many years ago will perceive the first historian to examine underground railroad, to insist that runaway, as he called them, missionaries, was in the cause of freedom. they were the ones first initiated and later and later worsened the crisis over slavery by. their decision to put distance themselves and those who claim them. as one told a reporter after he had made it safely to canada, he said he had let his feet feel for leaving his master to feel it in his pocket. very perceptive. it's a beautiful. although there are no hard figures. all the evidence suggests that numbers rose appreciably in the 1840 as they left the left

alone, with families pooling their resources to escape in groups. in early fall, 1852, eight slaves escape from mines of southwest missouri cross the mississippi river and headed for sparta, illinois. some in the group were related, others were fellow miners. losses. this occurred all along. the divide between slavery and freedom. slaveholders formed organized missions to defend their interests and curtail their flights. some of those very effective. but wherever their activities were contested by the enslaved and their everson since the early 1830s. if you braves soldiers some of whom we have been able to chronicle apparently defied logic and reason by going south to contact then slave to encourage, as one local law said, to entice them to escape.

siebert again calls them adventure tourists, liberators. recently, another has called them the special forces of the underground. a few paid a heavy price. others went undetected even before the york abolitionist gerard smith declared in 1842 that abolitionists were morally to go into the south and use their intelligence to promote the escaped of ignorance and bruited slaves from their prison house. white and black abolitionists had made forays into the slave states. calvin fairbanks, the oberlin graduate who spent more than 20 years in kentucky prisons for his troubled but indifferently by helping the slaves to. he was put in, as he said, his hand against the authority of the state prior the start of the poston campaign in the late 1850s. in his dresser an oberlin

student was caught and nashville with anti-slavery literature in his wagon hidden. among the bibles he was selling. by then he had already contact had enslaved and free blacks. he was tried, convicted of no known state law, relieved of his clothes and publicly whipped where dresser went. others followed seaboard counted 20 of these liberated white and four black. more recently, others have added to these numbers. there still is, however, much more work to be done on this score. we know much about such liberators as harriet tubman, but all along is devalued, especially in places where they were free. blacks. these liberation left their mark on the system when the enslaved fled. macon county, kentucky, for example. they knew to first make their way to john parker's in ripley,

ohio parker in turn, made frequent trips across the river to bring out the enslaved. it is possible that he worked with arnold grigson enslaved in macon county who helped the slaves reach ripley, but who chose to remain in slavery until two years into the war. we need to add to that number those who escaped slavery and to help families and friends reach freedom. those endured the hardship of escape yet risked it all to return. thomas went with higginson suggests demonstrated a capacity for what he called heroic deeds unmatched among whites. again, we are not sure many did. nor are we sure about the numbers of liberators involved in this dangerous and business. fairbanks claim to have liberated 47 before he was

caught. tubman claims to have brought out 300 as war neared, but obscure. they were radical. his story incited one. kennedy and reserve are speculating that former slaves who had fled, fled to the british colony, returned to bring out 600 enslaved. in 1860, that number cannot be confirmed. what is critical is that on the eve the war, their collective action has had profound effect on the politics of slavery. what was it that so angered southerners? as congress debated the new fugitive slave law in 1850, senator andrew butler, south carolina, tried to quantify the value of lost property. kentucky, he pointed out, had lawson and estimated $30,000 worth of slaves every year since 1840. james mason of virginia, who

submitted the new law. with its more draconian measures thought. the numbers were closer to 100,000 a year. when one of his constituents finally took retook his slave in harrisburg, pennsylvania, mason told his colleague it cost his neighbor more than the market value of the slave. he escaped. he recaptured thomas pratt, former governor of maryland, spoke from experience during his administration and he reported the state. the state law slaves valued at eight $80,000 every. in early 1850 a slave catcher observed that both virginia and maryland had more slaves than any other period in maryland concurred. not day passes, he wrote. when one or more of the enslaved did not take a chance on reaching a free state, all

figures are very likely for political effect. but the claims cannot be dismissed of hand. they are. they tell us something about slaveholders desperate as the enslaved challenged their economic security and, political hegemony by taking leave the work of outside only made things worse. it is hard not to ridicule curtis jacobs, a maryland slave holder from the eastern shore. the actions of the enslaved, the presence of a growing free black population as well as the intrusion of outsiders, drove jacobs to distraction. there were troubling developments. his farm in 1855. he reported hardy, one of the enslaved, escaped in june six months later. joshua followed but was retaken a. number of women including sally and julia, had murdered their children.

other women had taken what calls teas and dregs to induce abortions. several men and women, including abed, leah and charlotte, had united together to poison him and other members of his family. jacobs tried to rally his neighbors, which suggests their two works experience in problems. he traveled out of state to buy cuffs and ankle locks. the following january he reported intercepting letters what he called paid abolitionists mail from new york and canada, informing the enslaved that wagon, arms and mules had been procured to take them out on of all days. the fourth, as if things could not get. jacobs claimed to have evidence that the plot to destroy was financed by money from english women abolitionists. it was a dangerous brew.

this mix of the insider working with outside help and financed by foreign money to destroy slavery in this remote part of the eastern shore. a cursory look at figures recorded in north point to the scope of the problem facing those such as jacobs, who tried to stem the tide of escapes by end of the 1840s, it was that over 110 runaways had passed through one town in ohio over a six month period. the figures from this town were not unusual, as james mason told his and descendants sent in the senate trying to capture those who had absconded. was he like looking for fish in the sea? more troubling was the fact that they seemed to vanish into thin air once. they crossed into a free state. local mobs made up large lee of blacks prevented them returning

people. according to henry clay of kentucky. these people, these free blacks who he said possessed part of our political system. all these led mason to conclude that the price of recapture and return was greater than the market value of the runaways. it begs the logical question why try to retake those seeking they are freedom to remain inactive in the in the face of such on their property authority would be to concede that the system was flawed if not legitimate. illegitimate. not surprisingly, slaveholders placed the for these depredations at the feet of those who, according senator butler, invoked slaves to leave for butler and his the enslaved could possibly have taken the to leave without prompting of dark outside forces.

there was, however, an element of truth in butler's observation going. so to aid the had been a feature of the underground railroad some time. these emissaries subversion blended into normal commercial and trade in systems between the two sectors, making difficult to detect them. we know something of their activities because their failures. allison wark james burr and george thomson students at marion in quincy, illinois crossed the missouri in 1841 to help that should be crossing the mississippi. so for those geographers who very keen to cross mississippi in 1841 to help in slaves escape, they would betray the court and sent to prison. that stopped neither the flow of

escapees out of the section of missouri nor the arrival of emissaries from illinois. by the end of the decade, it destroyed missouri and threw up her in despair. subversive as she them was her words. thick as and a dead horse. in september 1844, local officials were nonplused by the escape from lexington of louis hayden, the wife, his wife and their son calvin fairbank and william webster of maine, both teachers at a local school were arrested, tried and sent to the state penitentiary for organizing the escape of the family. webster was soon freed because. there was no salary. webster was soon freed because there was no accommodation for women in the state prison. the haden's moved to where they became fixtures in the local

struggle against of the 1850 fugitive slave law. they were in the fall of the effort to protect the crops from slave holders from slave catchers in october 1850. fairbank, released after ten years and promptly returned to his all activities, this time in louisville where he was again arrested for aid in an escape woman to. this time he language aged in prison until 1864. free blacks and enslaved working also facilitated. charles story and thomas smallwood ran a successful operation in washington d.c. they both the city in 1843. as the authorities closed in on them. tarry later returned was captured and sent to prison where he in 1846. his place, as we have seen, was taken by william chaplin of

upstate new york. one of the driving forces behind behind the attempted escape of the poor. there were other escapes in 1848, near midnight. in early december, the nashville in nashville, tennessee the constable caught richard dillingham as he crossed the cumberland river with three slaves. the 25 year old quaker had been teaching in cincinnati, ohio, at his trial. dillingham admitted his guilt and was sentenced to three years of hard labor in the state penitentiary where he contracted cholera and died in 1850 weeks later. william and ellen crawford escaped from macon. phenotypically ellen disguised as a slave holder traveling to philadelphia for medical reasons. william accompanied her as her slave. they left over the christmas

holiday, traveling by train and carriage. the couple it to philadelphia in four days. theirs was possibly the most dramatic escape slavery a story of love, determination and resilience. the virtues of frontier america conquering all the crafts subsequently moved to boston, where they became a fixture in the city's struggle against slavery and discrimination working with the heavens to defy the 1850 law. they also joined the anti-slavery lecture circuit, taking the story of defiance to audiences across the northeast. not surprisingly, weeks after the passage of the law in 1852, slave catchers arrive in boston in search of the crafts. the black with the aid of white supporters, rallied to their defense. the defiance was widely.

as a result, boston became a slave unsafe for the couple. and they left again. and another stage their escape to england where they lived until 1869. by the way when they returned and a plantation in georgia that shows you have some gumption. the crafts joined were joined in the lecture circuit by another former henry brown who escaped from richmond in a dramatic fashion in 1849. created in a box and sent to philadelphia box henry box brown took his box with him wherever he went. face first would possibly recapture he too left for england where together with the crafts they played a critical role in winning british support the abolition in the decade before the civil war and brown brown would have his himself

boxed in manchester and sent across the pennines to leeds and pop out of his box. he was a man had a flair for the dramatic of short man as you could if you were going to put yourself in a box. but a rather rotund figure. so always dress and flambeau orient waistcoats. he was a very character. in march 1850, as the decade as the debate over the fugitive slave law heated up, it became clear to many, including some northerners, that as soon as senator daniel webster put it, the south had his words a will founded grounds for complete the activities of the enslaved and those who ate them to elude recapture had brought country. as henry clay put it, to the edge of a political precipice. the distracted as he called it, an unhappy country he believed was in a state of. it was time, again, to address

the intractable problem of enacting a new fugitive slave law. collectively, the number of escapes in 1840s and the political they created with whenever were made to reclaim escapees in the north, cried out for a new law. the time seemed. the war with mexico and the acquisition of vital, vast new territories. at its conclusion, provided the political opening to do what earlier legislators despite best efforts, could not accomplish in a country evenly divided politically between freeing slaves. it how the new lines were divided up had the potential to unravel the political equilibrium that had been established most drew in the missouri come crisis of 1820 classes. the opportunity to propose a compromise that address many

outside and in political differences. this was the political context that made the fugitive slave law possible. something that earlier legislators failed to accomplish despite their efforts. what mechanisms the law put in place? i hope you noticed i did a quick skip over discussion of the law, which i don't want to bore you this early in the morning. master's law, as it became known, drew heavily on a report that was prepared by the legislature chose by the select committee of the assembly. the bill, the fugitive slave law bill signed by president millard

fillmore, who, as you all know, is one of the great presidents of the united states. signed in september 1850, recovered most of the virginia committee has recommended in with those proposed the failed 1817 bill which i mentioned earlier. but as far as slaveholding interests were concerned, the new law was hampered by many of the same problems its predecessor. but now the times were different, especially the wake of john brown's raid on harpers ferry in october 1859. as predicted, the country's to be unraveling. there was increasing there were increasing calls for secession of southern states worried of the north in the north insisted as they had done in 1850 that something should be done to accommodate slaveholder this concerns must meetings in some of the north's largest sought to

find grounds for reconsider. those benton live in were unimpressed as far as one richmond editor was concerned. these admittedly good intentions were unmatched, undermined by the actions of what he called a reeking mass of ignorance and barbarism. we don't write like anymore. here was the crux of the dilemma. according to one philadelphia editor. it not be in morals. the same thing to conceal a man he conceded with his own consent in order to secure his liberty as it is by force fraud to carry him. to reduce him to slavery. but so far as false and fraud, it must. it is deprived of his of by our

citizens. after identification of his legal titles to the services of the fugitive, he is entitled by every principle of the constitution to demand from each and every one assist in some form of constant personal recompense for the injury he has suffered. i think that's one of the worse. ed i have ever read. but the point he's making is, i think comes out at the end some concessions were much too subtle for those who were convinced there was no cure to the problem except southern independence. but even after that position had gained widespread acceptance in the south, breaking away still needed to be justified. those slaves that had secede bring it beginning with south carolina in december 1860, sent out commissioners to other states to join cause.

their message messages were almost identical. slavery had been under assault for 25 years and resulted in the election of an anti-slavery president under whose rule their property would be appropriated. and blacks. and elevated to a position of social and political equality. more importantly, the to leave the union was by the north's failure to adhere to the terms of the fugitive slave law and adoption of these personal liberty. in explaining their decision to leave south carolina, appointed among other reasons to what they called thousands of slaves who were encouraged to leave their homes. and that's their word. and those who did not they observed, had been incited by emissaries as books and pictures to servile insurrection as well.

william herrick, the georgia commissioner, put it the citizens, the south had been deprived their property and for attempting to seek the rich as promised by law had sometime even lost their liberty and lives. the right to return was guaranteed by the constitution and the fugitive law. yet both had been continually nullified and the solemn pledge of the compromise of 1850. he said. faith. leslie. herrick was clear eyed about the nature. the resistance to the enforcement of fugitive slave rule and the nature of that resistance at. its core with the actions of the slaves. those who chose to leave, and even who stayed behind, but continued to foment. they were aided by the activities of those who came

south to disrupt slavery is peaceful order. residents of northern black community with the support of white abolitionists that the all they could to defy the law by their action and their influence. northern state legislatures to adopt laws that further limited the effectiveness of the fugitive slave law. in these ways, the constitu compact forged. 1787 had been shredded. the south had no option but to leave. thank you. i think i am now open to questions. the floor. i can't see anybody. but that's not there. let's start here.

there's the roof in mike. okay. thank you for your talk and information. i just had a question. when south carolina, you said they sent out agents to persuade other states to vote in favor of secession. what kind of tactics were they using were these, you know, like lobbying politicians or were they holding mass meetings to get public support for it? the former, uh, they, they went around because there are a number of constitutional conventions that are being held at this time and they are trying to persuade to join south carolina and others in georgia sent commissioners all in an effort to persuade folks that it was time to join the secessionist movement. did i hear one from over here? okay i thank you. george, your talk. i always and i don't know if if you have an answer for this for

me. but how did the advocates of states rights who defended the institution of slavery aggressively on the theory of states rights justify it reconcile their demands that. other states be co-opted, violating their own beliefs to support slavery in. the fugitive slave act. it seems to me they're it both ways. did they even try to reconcile that? you are asking for consistency. i think you answered the question. i mean, they are having. they are having it both ways. they are asking for the recognition of state state's rights while they are insisting that slavery be nationalized. and that is the problem. the person it we have a live stream question. oh, sorry. we have livestream question.

oh, okay. since canada had abolished slavery. were there diplomatic efforts by u.s. leaders to have the canadian authorities extradite escaped slaves who had found refuge in canada? yes, they did. one person was extradited in the entire period between between the abolition of slavery and the british colonies, 1834 and the outbreak of the war. and that unfortunate fugitive runaway came came from arkansas. but after that, no. the canadians resisted and the british resisted. and this is not just happening in canada, because throughout all along the atlantic seaboard, slaves de and slaves that were being transported to from northern from upper south slave states like virginia and to the slave markets of new orleans. in a number of instances is

there are uprisings and ships and the ships are guided the bahamas which of course is a british colony and the british assist refusing to send them back or to pay compensation. so the british take a very clear position very early on that following their the emancipation of their slaves, the abolition of slavery, their colonies. they would not recognize the legitimacy of of returning people who had run away from slavery in the united states. so, no, that's a dead letter. canada is safe territory for those who make it there. thank you so much for this talk. it's great. a question about the implementation of the fugitive slave act from the period. 61 to 1864. when the act is actually finally

repealed. do we have stories, especially in the border states of slaves slaves finding freedom or being fugitives that then returned under that law even while the war going on? yes, we do. and depend it depended on who the local commander was. so if a union commander is is not to this abolitionist nonsense. the slave enters his ranks. would returned to their local slave holders. but you know what? the thing begins to break down early in the war along the whole idea of contraband. and in this part of of the episodes where. union commanders are refusing to return those who make it into their ranks, they are not going

out and encourage in people. but but once the war starts. the political goals, the political equation is completely altered. no, you have one section of of the of the count of the north american continent who are who are taken a position. it appears to supportive of those who run away and not returning them. so that that becomes different that's a different political equation than prior to the outbreak of the war when it is one unified government with a unified support, a unified political position? again, encouraging slaves to run away. but once the war starts, that equation, that political equation shattered and it changes. so you have huge numbers of people just walking away from plantations throughout wherever

federal forces were arriving in some sort of proximity to that plantation. we have a record of huge numbers of, people fleeing their plantations. the numbers that i'm talking about in after the fugitive slave law are relatively minor compared to what happens during the war. and really, like all historians, have to stop somewhere. so. so once war starts, i go oh, i'm not interested in this stuff anymore because. now you have a serious political ally potentially. and if after the politicians the south saying abraham lincoln a is a is an abolitionist and all abe is trying to say them, no, not really. you have you have a different political equation. and think it's important that change.

yes. i think there's a magic. okay. professor, you spoke about canada being a permanent slave haven for slaves who reached there. can speak a bit about slave, particularly from louisiana and texas who reached mex rico as a permanent safe haven as well. yeah. there's a very interesting book recently on this that can speak much more about it than i can. but the same idea wherever, wherever. free soil existed then slave made it there. that is that i think is when we look at this issue of of of fugitive fugitive that's a terrible word. it's a word that i find my gratitude from use in fugitive. they put t y on everything up.

but wherever free soil existed, whether it is indian territories, it is mexico. it's. it's the british caribbean. after 1834, it's canada. 1834. even before that slaves tried to rebuild their. so it it shouldn't be a it shouldn't be a surprise that this is happening. and they go and they go particularly with those from texas and louisiana matters as well. if i'm if i'm an enslaved person in texas, canada is a of a distance to try and reach. so the movement is towards mexico. once mexico abolishes slavery. so that, i think, is the way to look at the equation. once wherever you have free soil, people will go towards it. no. is there a magic here?

you? yeah, but i think your recording you have to be the only one motivated someone someone. territory. can i characterize? not in mixed company. i shouldn't shouldn't. there was money to be made. the people to slave catchers who turned up in boston. looking for william and allen. craft one worked with william in a carpenter shop so he knew him and therefore you could identify him. and the second one was hired by the slave catchers because he had a reputation for doing that sort of thing. so there's to be made in and the

money was significant enough that it warranted doing this. the slave the slave holders on the hand after 1850 would were guaranteed the cost. the cost of returning the fugitive would be covered by the government. yeah. so if you look at the bills, the bills of return is the break down. there's there's prison costs that were covered. there the whole per diem expensive. and this sounds like me doing a return after i leave a lecture to the university. i have per diem. expensive. i accommodation expenses. i have meals and all of those under the 1850 fugitives leave law are covered by the federal government and that is a significant cost. and it shows that that that the

the big force behind this law is the federal government. and in doing the research on this i found that all of these that the then slave age and whoever does the recapture are in submits their they express to the treasury to the united states treasury. and for the first two years of the law, i track the cost of return and fugitives and then all the record does disappear as though somebody came along and said, we shouldn't keep these anymore. i mean, that's my conspiratorial best because i went everywhere in the archives, in the old national archives and the new national archives. they're nowhere to be found. nobody that everybody thinks they should be there, but they're not there. but no, the cost the cost comes

is covered by the federal government and the catcher himself pays is paid by the slave holder to return them. and that cost also be part of the expenses. it's a wonderful it's a wonderful system. i am wondering how the secessionist states figured that secession would solve this fugitive slave problem. and i realize logic may not be the answer for that. the recording. yes, you're right. logic. logic isn't isn't part of calculation. there were. many people in the south and i am you're going to hear this in other lectures who said you said, look, why do it's better to stay in the system. they all kind of guarantees in the system. if we and rather than walk away

because when we walk away, who is who is going to guarantee the that that those who run away would be returned? we are no longer part of the federal system, although they are insisting that it should be returned because individual enslavers are turning up to to to military officers and saying, can i have my slave back? so that is that is a real problems. but that is not the calculation by this time, things have gotten past. there is a point in political developments which i am still unable decipher intellectually where logic loses resonance. it makes no sense what you do in. well, i was going to get modern and say there is an election coming up, but it makes no sense what you're doing. and there are some people within

the ranks of the of the within slaveholding ranks are saying don't do it. and there are others who are saying we got to do it. and it's the the, the let me put it this way it's the crazies who carried the day. and there's so many things in our political history. we had the crazies the day. and notice i say our in spite of my accent but it is it something that is it has befuddled me and especially and and it's befuddled lots of us who study this in american history. dr. black, so thank you very much for. the wonderful lecture i had the occasion last night to see the impending crisis. the new exhibit, the number they cite for. people who for fled to freedom, is 100,040 thousand in canada, just more information. what is numbers in terms of people who are actually able to.

i know hard question i i know that is a question i, i get lot and i sell people that's why i'm a historian and not a mathematician or or a statistician. folks love those and those numbers. let me say, largely inflated. we can't we can't know with any certainty. so many people actually escape. and for person who is interested in political history or or history, generally what matters is what people for me, what interests me is what are doing to achieve their freedom and. the way the system is trying to stop the numbers seem to me to be immaterial. what we do know is that the numbers are out. the numbers achieve a rate that cause those who own slaves to disappear. and that's all we can see. and if by the action of enslave,

they cause those enslave them to despair, then i think they have achieved their objective and that seems to me is what is is more critical than the actual numbers themselves. that is like the other questions i get frequently is how big was the underground railroad? and for some people, when i when i taught at indiana, at university and i would give talks there on this subject, i to remind people not every in the bottom of your house is a is a station on the underground railroad. it's just called a cell a it is it is better to say that you had why stored in there and that were totally obliterated because of your wonderful cellar. it had nothing to do but people became so enamored of that. even some houses on the banks of

the ohio river people said were stations in the underground railroad. and when you look up the you see the person was a slave holder who owned house know that that just defies logic but it became part of this and susie asked some of people to to to associate with this thing called the underground railroad, because they see it as a good part of american history. it was. but the point is, i remember remind people who would come to my lectures on these things that the purpose the purpose of the under underground railroad was to destroyed this the the political system. it was known at the time that is what it's to do. so i would ask i would ask my some my audience members who were older. i have to i have to be careful

what i say here, but who are slightly, as some of us are, whether in their youth and political and socialism would they have the communist party and they and i could see the horror on their faces. they won't answer it. i said, the purpose of the underground railroad was destroy the country. as we know it, the society, the political system. and that is a revolution undertaken and it has significance. therefore. but many of the people in my audience, i feel, would not have that far to participate it. what we do, what we have to do is therefore pay respect for the people who actually did. and they are a small but they are significant. and that's that's my preaching. and that'll be the last question. that was that was the last question.