well, also, welcome to macculloch hall historical museum morris towns museum. my name, tricia pone gratz. i am delighted that you're all here today to share this beautiful, finally sunny day with. we are delighted to back

historian and author william b staple, who will discuss the life of new artist james edward kelley, which he researched extensively for his book generals and bronze the commanding generals of the war. this program is made possible in part by the generous operating support from the parsons todd foundation, the new jersey historical commission, division of the department of state, the f.m. kirby foundation, the mimi washington sterritt foundation, and program support from arestill alive hogg family foundation, the new jersey council for the humanity and the garden club of morristown and support from our generous members, many of whom i see in our audience. thank you. individual donors and. visitors. welcome. macculloch hall was built by george and louisa mccullough, who emigrated from london to, new york city, in 1806, in 1810, they purchased six acres and a

one story bank house from john dowdy, a commander in george washington's army, during the revolutionary war. the mccullough's built their federal style mansion. the first significant structures brick structure in morristown in 1810, and added onto it in 1812 and 18, 19, as their family's influence in local, state and history grew five generations of the mccullough miller post family lived in this house. until 1949. when when the family sold the property to w parsons todd, who created mccullough hall historical museum for the benefit of public good 1950. and it's really fitting that we're here today gathered in the school room gallery of hall, which was once home to a school and a meeting place during the mccullough's time and. we're going to learn together with bill about the art of the

artist james kelly as bill will discuss in the decades following the american civil war, more than 40 union general visited the new york city studio of the artist who was renowned for his art's historical accuracy. the success of kelly's was due in part to the time he took getting to know his subject as he interviewed generals about their wartime service and, as bill explains, recorded their deeply personal recollections about their time at fort sumter. antietam. gettysburg. appomattox. bill and transcribed kelly's with generals grant sherman sheridan sickles webb slocombe, hancock warren chamberlain and many. he published in bronze interviewing the commanders of the civil war in 2005 and the civil times magazine called it a

blockbuster history the civil war. so it gives me great, great pleasure to introduce bill thank you. thank you thank you all for having me. thank you to hall and thank you all for coming out this we're going to talk about a little bit of james kelly and his art and his writings. james kelly. is born in 1855 in new york city. so was only six years old when the civil war. but from his front doorstep, young jimmy kelly would watch ten of thousands of union soldiers off to the war and inside the kelly home, his father would be reading aloud the depictions of reports of the battlefield and also the kelly. subscribe to the illustrated magazines of the day. harper's frank, leslie's and

young jimmy kelly would would pore over these of these sketches and illustrations and and hear stories of general sheridan at the battle of cedar creek or grand at vicksburg and young jimmy kelly returned to his mother and say, you know, mother one day those generals are going to come visit me and be my friend. and the parents were. yes, sure. right son. well, that'll happen. well, one thing that little kelly did, he had a natural aptitude for art, and that is his schoolmates would notice that on his slate, he would draw pictures of grant and all the other famous generals. and so how we doing a little bit might work, but that's how kelly worked. he he he he loved history. and it was always his his ambition that he said, you know, again, i want to do their portraits. i want to draw pictures of soldiers and generals and if i

if how do i ever met george washington? what question when i ask washington. so he made up his mind one day at very young age that he was going to meet these generals, draw their portraits. well, having that natural aptitude for for drawing young kelly was sent to the academy of design and also got an apprenticeship at harper's weekly illustrated, the magazine. and as a young artist is assignment was the streets perhaps on the street and there's a fire on broadway say or an accident downtown, a fight in the bowery. kelly would draw that incident and then bring it to the art director at who would look at the drawing and then say good. and then he would remove it and say, now draw it from memory. and kelly was trained to witness these things on broadway or

whatever. and one thing that kelly became for was his drawings of horses. and it was considered throughout the country that the finest horses were by young jim. again, he's not even out of his teens yet. think an example of he made the cover drew the cover for harper's bazaar magazine of. a young lady riding her there and frightened by the elevated railway. so kelly's witness to the scene drew it made the cover and people the country around the world started to take note of young kelly's drawings. there was an article in harper's. it was called louis scribner's magazine. every famous artist that was working in new york city did a a self-portrait of their studio at work.

and kelly's naturally it was out outdoors, so he is actually sketching a horse from the rear a few friends are posing the horse and underneath it's it's written in the animal artist studio people took note one particular artist in europe saw that picture this is kelly's probably most famous sketch it's called the gilli boy. and usually you know, this was the day in illustrate newspapers they couldn't reprint photography. the artist still had draw the picture and then the engraver had to take the painting and make an engraving. this caused the engraver was named timothy cole actually. and when it was published inscribed ners, it really created a sensation and kelly was called by the art critics

and all their papers were called kelly the founder of the new school of wood engraving. and, you know, it really had motion to it. there was motion in the sky, there's motion in the in the ground, the leaves that there was the grass. everything moved. and it was one particular artist who saw. and he was so struck by he wrote a letter to his brother, i will read to what he said. let's go back to the this artist was writing on september 11th, 1882 and quote recently i've also been drawing on the street. i would like to have a horse pose sometime yesterday i heard someone behind say, well, what kind of painter is that she's drawing horses backside. it's instead of doing them from the front, the artist said, i rather enjoyed that comment. i love it much sketching on the

street. and as i wrote in my last letter, i'm determined to achieve a certain standard in it. do you know the american periodical called harper's monthly magazine? they are marvelous in it. i've only seen six months of it and i have three issues myself. but there are things in it that i find astounding? and that was vincent van writing to his brother theo. he wanted to draw horses from the rear and have a horse pose for him. that's exactly what kelley did. well, kelley, again, such a well-respected artist. he wasn't given a simon so you could pick and choose what he wanted to illustrate. and the editor at harper's one day and said, you know, what are you working on? he goes, well, there's this guy and an inventor, menlo park, new jersey. he invented box. and you actually, you speak into this box and you turn a crank and it repeats what you said. and the editor said, well, i'm

good down in menlo park and check it out. so james kelly goes to the laboratories of edison edison as, a young inventor, and kelly would sketch there he is speaking into that box. and kelly and edison became lifelong friends. it really all illustrations that kelly made of edison are you can see them in various books and publications and the edison laboratory in west. well being kelly from harper's that was on his business card he had easy access to some of the most important that would go through new york city in the 1870s, 1880s and nineties. and while former president grant was visiting new york city, kelly had the opportunity to sit and. grant would pose and he would give give you an excellent opportunity to ask.

so that's why i call kelly the ultimate civil war buff, because he got to sit down with grant and sherman and sheridan and hancock. chamberlin were born in double date circles and any question he wanted. and then he would have the general sign, the portrait. and kelly kept notes, while he was doing these interviews. basically to protect his art from criticism if someone would come along and criticize a painting of grant at fort. saying that's not accurate. well, kelly, produce the notes and say, well, this is what general grant told me. and general grant signed. so that's why kelly, you know, the interviews while he sketched and, kept the notes to protect his art. also, matthew brady, the famous from the civil war. brady is probably most important

photographer in u.s. history, took thousands of images during the civil war, but he ran into hard times towards the end of his life, he was a broken man, penniless, lost his galleries, lost the respect of the public, and he spent his final months with kelly visiting. kelly in his studio talking about times and. kelly brady would look at kelly's portraits of grant and sherman and sheridan. and brady said to think those men once held me in great. they were my friends and now i'm nothing but a broken down old. and he never finished the sentence. brady only had weeks to live and he died in. january 1895. dan sickles well, that's someone that they didn't like very much. dan sickles if you know the story of the battle of gettysburg lost his leg and spent the rest his life

disparaging general meade, the commander at gettysburg and also was in charge of the new york state monument commission. and kelly took note that tens of thousands of dollars were missing from those funds and they were traced to sickles bank account. and so keller not a good friend but he also he made circles his portrait. joe hooker, shortly before he died, joe hooker commanded the union battle. chancellorsville received terrible injury. it's actually is standing on the front porch, front steps of the chancellor house and a column supporting the the overhang of the porch. there was hit by a confederate shell and it struck hooker on the side and and knocked him unconscious, paralyzed. and hooker still felt the effects of that 15 years later when he sat kelly and gave details of that day of

chancellorsville this is the surrender at appomattox as told by general grant. now memories a funny thing you look at the picture on the left there that would be the rough sketch that kelly do when he was interviewing general and grant and told kelly that this surrender was signed at a single table. other members of grant's staff who were witnesses in the room said no, it was signed a two different tables, but this is how grant remembered it. so kelly would do the basic sketch, get it approved, and then proceed to create a more detailed sketch. and they would say that the other members of grant's staff said that lee was very tense. and his you see his left there raised, clenched almost. and they said, take careful note of that in your painting. well one of his boyhood idols,

kelly's boyhood idol, was general philip and. you see the portrait of sheridan there? kelly would ask him details of the battles and and one thing in particular, the famous painting that kelly did, an engraving called the sheridan's ride and it's actually named after a poem written by thomas buchanan read. and there was a famous now you got to remember this was a time in american history young young schoolchildren had to study and, memorize poetry and recited in the classroom. well, probably the most popular poem of the day was sheridan's right. and you'll see the painting over there on the wall of the author of that poem is also the painter, and that's thomas mchenry's painting of sheridan's. right. well, when kelly was drawing

this his version of sheridan's right. his father just commented and say, well, the poem says that as they make a statue one day of that event. and i wonder going to be the sculptor to create statue. and kelly said, may, i'll do it. yes, sorry. and that was kelly's very first attempt at sculpture. you'll see on the table there is a copy of kelly's statuette bronze of general sheridan at the of cedar creek. it was a very popular bronze. it was in the window of tiffany's in manhattan and a young college student was walking past tiffany's window, and he sees the statuette of sheridan's right. and he went inside and. he bought it. that was teddy roosevelt spent,

i believe he spent his last $200 to buy the bronze. and when his father found out, give me his uncle i found out that teddy wasted his money on this bronze gave him a scolding. but if you go to sagamore hill today in teddy roosevelt's personal on the mantel is copy of sheridan's right it was probably kelly's most popular work teddy roosevelt said he considered three bronzes to the typical american pride. i believe he used the words. one was the puritan by saint-gaudens, the other was bronco buster by frederic remington and kelly's shared. while interviewing general sheridan kelly says to the general in all the paintings of

surrender at appomattox, you figured prominently in the room, where exactly did you stand during the surrender? it appomattox. and sheridan says. well, kelly would like to be in your picture, but i wasn't there. i arrived at the mclean on april 9th, 1865, and we shook hands all around and said to the others, gentlemen, i've been in the saddle for ten days and i am exhausted. and he went down and he laid that beneath a tree and fell asleep. he never set foot inside the mclean, he said. i woke up when general lee started to send the steps. general grant's at the top step and sherman and said, whatever you do in your in your illustrates and be sure to give lee's horse traveler a short tale tale. kelly again, you know, immediately out a quick sketch and general sheridan his raising himself up on his elbow,

watching the historic scene from the ground. kelly also interviewed general abner doubleday, who fired the first gun at fort sumter. kelly made this illustrate and it was criticized by some saying, well, he put an old ship's cannon in the port there and, set of a proper gun, a fort. so after the drawing was published, you know, kelly went to doubleday and said, i'm receiving criticisms. the cannon and double said, no, you're right. it old ship cannon, the governor of south carolina had all the proper the good guns removed and replaced with old obsolete cannon. and so that's how kelly worked. everything had to be details. he wouldn't a button on a uniform unless he could document it. and again, save the notes to,

protect the art. they were publishing a history united states, bryant's history of the u.s. and kelly was going to receive the commission to do art for that book. and it came to the point of the battle of gettysburg. and the publisher could not to have a page to general hancock and a page for general meade and a page general slocombe. so what did they do? kelly suggested there was only one time in the battle of gettysburg where they were all together. and that was the night of july second, 1863, and meet headquarters is the council of war. that's the way we can depict them all on a single page. so kelly went and with the surviving generals were at gettysburg, john the left there you'll see a general winfield,

scott hancock who gave details to kelly. and when he set for his portrait, hancock says, make my collar as high as fashion will allow his. hancock was getting a little fall under the chin at the time, so i think kelly boosted shirt a little bit to hide that dignified undergrowth. some of his also on the right, you see general warren. warren criticize it a little bit. warren was slightly wounded that little round top on july 2nd, hitting the neck and his was bandaged and when he arrived at the meade's headquarters for the council of war he fell asleep on the and flat on his back. and warren insists kelly depicted me in the wrong way. you have me raised upon my elbow. and kelly says, well, that was the only way to show you. if you're lying flat on the bed no one would see you so that was

a little bit of artistic license that kelly made. so what's interesting that that illustration has been used in every gettysburg magazine and every gettysburg history, but no one knew the background of it. no historian ever knew what was actually said that night at headquarters. but kelly recorded it and got the information directly from the participants. hancock slocombe, warren, butterfield and others. so it's not a willy nilly picture. everybody has documented where you sat, who sat next to you. what did meade say? what did you say? general hancock? you had the uniform. you were at gettysburg, and he reaches in the closet there and. hancock says, this is the jacket i wore at the battle of gettysburg. well, by now, after early attempts at sculpture, kelly in his studio, he don't turn it

into a full time, more or less gave up illustrate and painting on the left is doing there that's bust of admiral dewey spanish war hero on the right kelly is working on a relief of admiral walden who commanded the monitor in the famed battle of the iron clouds. the monitor versus the virginia again, all the while taking careful notes about relief with general sheridan, the left, and joshua lawrence chamberlain on the right. kelly again always wanted to know exactly what their apparel was what their uniform were wearing, and kelly asked general chamberlain, what was your appearance at gettysburg? and chamberlain said, well, i wore a full beard and so when you watch the movies and you watch the documentary and you look at the artwork, modern, it all has chamberlain just wearing

mustache. but kelly would depict him that way in his sketches of chamberlain. that was that one was done about 1904 at barbara lief it's up at the chamberlain home in brunswick maine left lefties general devin early in the war was a colonel of the six new york cavalry and that is on the reverse of the monument at gettysburg. the what the picture on the right is the six new york calvary two bar relief. a panel about six foot by six foot and if you go up by the first stage, fuel that gettysburg, you'll see kelly's. one of his earlier works got a free hold in front of the monmouth county courthouse. there's a monument at the battle of a monument monmouth excuse me and. that's the part relief is washington's council of war.

and it's in this monument in freehold. there's five panels, i believe, depicting different scenes from the battle. and on the right, you see kelly in his studio actually working in a friend, posing for one of the washington's officers. and the left is general tom sweeney. lost his right arm in the battle of tours. moscow, mexico but went on to a career in civil war. and to the right is eli parker, a full blooded seneca indian that served grant's staff who was in there at the surrender room at the mclean house when lee surrendered grant and it was parker who gave kelly further details and insisted that it was signed a two different tables. but again, kelly did their work as a fine artist on the left. it's general oliver howard.

and if you go to howard university down in the district, you'll see that bust general howard founded howard university and on the right is general john schofield schofield you go to the schofield barracks in hawaii, you'll see kelly's work there. he did a portrait or bust and by relief of general schofield and kelly's masterpiece, i think, is the general john buford statue at gettysburg. buford, who died during the war, never got to meet him. but in order, create the statue of buford at gettysburg route, kelly interviewed everyone that saw buford day. how did he stand what did he say? what did he wear? and buford is a commanding a cavalry division. so most people would think that they would put buford on horseback. but kelly said no.

buford fought his men dismount to holding in, check the attack of the confederates on the morning of july 1st. now, so, of course, kelly had to depict buford on foot, standing up, just lowering his binoculars after sighting enemy and preparing to fire. first shot at the battle of gettysburg gettysburg. this is the dedication of the buford statue. kelly if you can see in the center of the group standing of it all the he's surrounded by his former cavalryman providence, some of the greatest cavalryman that ever lived james wilson wesley merritt, gregg and others gathered around kelly, and they considered his finest work and that was dedicated. this picture was july 1st, 1895.

some 30 years after the battle. but it was again considered finest work, and he was literally cheered that day. and by the men who counted the veterans themselves. you you appreciate his artwork and you see you look a little sketch that kelly made on the right that was printed in about every newspaper in the country. the dedication, the unveiling of the buford statue. well, sorry, though, they had a connection, but they didn't know one another until after the spanish-american war. that's colonel theodore roosevelt returns, former commander the roughriders returned to new york and went to kelly's studio and kelly course and sketched and interviewed a teddy roosevelt. and even teddy said, oh, no artist is a forgotten. the fight day. you know, i'm depicted, you

know, incorrectly and, kelly said. well, let's do it right. and so kelly would interview him for details of exactly what he did, how he led his troops up. san juan and kettle hill in cuba and. teddy roosevelt lent kelly all the horse equipage, the accouterments that were in that day and insisted that kelly depict the horse named little texas thin lost a lot of weight and was was a very thin mount. so kelly was sure to depict that by the time this statuette was complete did teddy was president roosevelt kelly delivered it to the white house. but now you can see that statuette at sagamore in roseville. it's private collection. kelly at work in his studio and

made a scientific american magazine front cover it was about an article about bronze casting and kelly on the ladder there is working on and the equestrian statue of general john porter. that's up in portsmouth, hampshire. and there he is working on the figure to sit on the horse of general porter. very controversial statue. porter. you know, literally dismissed from the army for treason for his role in the battle of second manassas, second bull run. but he was eventually exonerated, cleared and restored to rank. so but there were people at the time was very political his political still considered porter a traitor and didn't want any monuments to him. kelly learned the truth that that porter was innocent and was

commissioned to make the statue actually fits. john porter lived right down the from where we are today kelly would come to morristown to visit fitz john porter sketches do conduct and also across the street is thomas nast another friend of kelly from the art world and so kelly came right where we are a very. bar relief on wall street at federal washington a prayer at valley forge when this was unveiled, the american public, it became a sensation, a wealthy real estate baron. new york city ordered, a thousand folding drafts of this

relief about two foot by three foot. and those were framed and placed in a thousand classrooms throughout the country. so, you know, when we were in young and in our classroom, we had a portrait of george washington, portrait of abraham and this portrait alongside it. now, when passed the law of prayer, the classroom, they were all taken and most destroyed a few are still out there. i have one in my collection now by the 1920s thirties. kelly is now. he's in his seventies and artistic commissions sculptures as public monuments becoming fewer. the depression didn't help, but no one wanted to hire an artist or commission work from kelly not knowing he was going to

survive. if you know it was, he'd be able to see the project through. so commissions got fewer and fewer. he began his began to sell and he was penniless. his his doctor doctor henry rider was a supporting him and kelly had married late life no children, but his wife predeceased. he had no descendants. and so he gave his entire collection to his doctor. and this is including know sculpture, paintings and those valuable notes were literally just boxed up. kelly did attempt to have memoirs, write his memoirs towards the end of his life, writing about growing up in new york city and know he lived manhattan when it had farmland and he lived long enough to see

the state building completed. so his history of new york is one of the working titles he had for his book was in the presence of the great and mentioning and using his interviews that he had his friendship with edison teddy roosevelt, oscar wilde and buffalo bill and walt whitman and others. anyone who was famous in new york city at that time went to kelly's studio, and kelly's studio was like a refuge for some of these old generals. they would come sit in comfortable chair, watch him work, talk the war. and it was almost a therapy session. and he's interviewing general alexander under webb about the battle of gettysburg and specifically pickett's charge. and webb said, you, kelly, no artist has ever gotten it right. the cyclorama painting didn't

look like that at all. the painting in the harrisburg state house, it wasn't like that all. no one's got it right. we'll tell you as well. let's get it right. they get out a big piece of paper and. kelly would say, describe your appearance. what kind of uniform did you wear? webster's shell jacket, tight pants, boots. kelly was a hat cap. he said i had my cap on. and kelly said, did you have your sword drawn? and webb says, yes. and i put it into a man because he was great. we'll use that for the painting. and webb says no, it was one of my own men. so as the confederates were pouring over the wall, the high water mark, the were beginning to break. the line began to break, and webb made example out of one retreating union soldier, and he skewered with his own sword. that's something you don't write about in your memoirs and you don't want it depicted art. but that's how kelly worked and the painting was a made. but the preliminary sketches were and webb also says making

eye contact with confederate general armistead who was leading his troops over the wall so they didn't know who he was. but we looked into each other's eyes and so that's that those little priceless interviews are, you know, every every gettysburg book about that climactic moment of pickett's charge. and even kelly read those accounts and said general webb did alonzo cushing, the artillery commander at the high water mark, did he really come up to you and say goodbye, i'm going to give them one more shot. that quote in every gettysburg book, you'll find. and alexander just says, no, that never happened. and so, you know, that's kelly, again, details and one day write the history. but unfortunately, by 1931, 32, he would submit his manuscript to the various publishing houses

in new york city and all the letters of rejection are still there in the letters would say no cares about the civil war anymore. no one under 50 would buy this book. you know, it's interesting, but no thank you so james kelly really died a broken man penniless. gave all of his artwork and personal effects to his doctor. when i was researching going through kelly's papers, i had to go. he died in may 1933. he's buried at saint raymond cemetery in the bronx. so i to go and what kind of monument does a man have who spent his entire life making monuments for other men and i get the section the row plot number and i drive to the cemetery and i go to the proper section in the proper row. and i'm counting the number of plots. and i get to the kelly's face

and. it's empty. i thought maybe it's a flat stone underneath the snow and started to scrape it away, take away nothing but cold dirt and so i said this. this can't stay mean. here's a man who dedicated entire life to history and american history and perpetuating the memory of these heroes. and i said, kelly is a too so so after the first edition of generals in bronze came out in 2005, there was a whole new interest in his art and his and people just came up to and said, you can't let him lie in an unmarked grave. and i had contacted the cemetery officials and they would say, are you a descendant? i said, no, i'm not and i'm as his biographer. and they said, sorry, only you're the son. you know, you. but after while so many people, literally hundreds of people throughout the country wanted to help. and i called the cemetery office

back and i repeated my request and they said, look, we've already told you, but i right then. so i said but i have all these people that want to donate money. they said, have a seat. you know, well. and so the following year, kelly got gravestone and on it, you know, it's a fitting epitaph. and what he was called his lifetime, he was called a sculptor of american history. and i said, there's no better than that. and so his grave is now marked is his artwork is on display in places from new hampshire to washington d.c. to new york to gettysburg, to all throughout the country and. now his writings are preserved so when after the edition of generals in bronze was released, you know, do contact you and

say, you know, i found this i have this, i have this letter, i have this photograph. so it took another 15 more years of research, but the next edition of generals in bronze will have over 50 pages of new that no historian ever seen and you know, that's my greatest joy is is to read his writings, go through his notes and do some further research his life and share it with the public. so i'm glad to be here today to talk to you and if you have any questions, because speaking to the microphone, ryan's got a microphone to speak in. so raise your hand and. yep, right there. bill. i don't understand the finances of artists, but you made him

sound so successful. you know how he ended up penniless? he was, the world's worst businessman. okay. you know, when compared. i don't want to compare artists here, but vincent van gogh never sold a painting in his life, but now he's immortal. kelly sold hundreds of works. you know, was a salaried artist for and scribner's and received a equestrian statue commissions were tens of thousands of dollars but he did have to save a dime. and no one no one knew who he was. so he was literally forgotten about until generals and bronze came out and then there was a resurgence. he'll never be as famous as some of the other sculptors. part of story i didn't really get into, but you know, of these sculptors of the day, daniel chester, french saint-gaudens and others considered kelly like

an interloper. he was a magazine or an illustrator. he doesn't belong here with us in the sculpture. and so, you know, when they would put up monuments after the civil war, which was like the monumental age, you know, how many monuments on the gettysburg battlefield that always be a a contest you would submit your design. and so kelly would make a design and and sometimes they were just out. right. rejected. now up in boston there's statue to paul revere and they had such a, you know, a contest send design and the artists were not allowed to sign it they would put a number on the on the statue at well kelly's statuette of paul revere was selected and you know this is what we won in our in our village on the on the

green. and when they found out his name was kelly, an irish, they pulled the commission and gave it to the number two. so there were there were a lot of things he battled and. it's just the way it was back then, you know. kelly when they were to put a statue to general sherman in washington, d.c., kelly submitted design statuette of sherman bareheaded wearing a cape and riding his horse well again. the sculpture society rejected kelly's design, but three years later, saint-gaudens did the monument in new york city in front of the plaza hotel sherman bareheaded, wearing a cape. exactly, you know, exactly design. but it was all too similar. yes. i mean and you know the questions of microphone and

socket. yes. you mentioned that you've got a new edition of your coming out. when is that going to happen? later this spring. yeah, it's something i've been working on for a couple of years now and i feel like it's that i've collected more information on kelly and other people have contacted over the years so collected a in the file got bigger and then i said there's you know there's good 50 more pages and very important you know little snippets of civil war history that deserve be told anyone else. well now i realize when i go again before i bought the book i'm looking forward to reading it. but is mcclellan in it that interview mcclellan and that they talk about mcclellan's failure at the battle of antietam. my opinion follow up an attack he did not interview mcclellan.

he interviewed several the generals that served mcclellan and do talk about antietam. and they talk about malvern hill especially, which was the great union victory. and kelly, like else said, why didn't mcclellan follow? and it was general webb who commanded the artillery, malvern hill, and said, we begged to follow up. and i received an to spike the guns and abandon the field. and general porter had to go and speak to mcclellan and say, this is a victory. don't spike your guns spiking a gun is making it an act of, you know, literally they would plug the touch hold the gun be unable to fire so general weber said that mcclellan issued an to spike the guns and refused to obey that and so it causes a little bit of you know the mcclellan supporters find that a little hard to defend.

all right well we're done the day. i appreciate you all coming out and hopefully take moment or so and look at kelly's chevrons right there. it's a rare, rare item from research. i've located only about a half dozen that are on view, and that's one of them. thank you.

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