=z her te giving you a front road to democracy. >> next we hear from retired general and kenneth mckenzie on their involvement with the 2021 u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan by general mckenzie was u.s.ndee told lawmakers he took full of military responsibility for the suicide bomb attack that killed 13 u.s. service members as they helped with evacuations general milley served as chair of the joint chiefs of staff in 2021 also gave his assessment of the withdrawal plan and the lessons learned for this hearing from the house foreign affairs committee runs almost four hours.

[background noises] [background noises]qp [inaudible] [inaudible] and to hear from the generals who advised pre biden against his disastrous foreign policy decision. i now recognize myself for an opening statement. on april 14, 2021 president biden announced the united states would unilaterally

withdrawal its military forces from afghanistan. the intelligence community and his senior military including gentlemen testifying here today issued dire warnings about the withdrawals consequences. after the announcement i collect other republican and democrat members of congress urge congress to prepare for the■imç withdrawal of its inevitable fallouts. unfortunately those weregs ignored. as the withdrawal nearer to the situation in afghanistan deteriorated as the taliban gained a significant ground across the country. plan for thr withdrawal threaten the safety and security of u.s. personnel in country.■i as a result in july of 2021, 23 state department employees sent

a dissent cable channel to secrary b warning of the grave concerns for afghanistan stability and for their own safety. yet nothing was done. instead our investigation uncovered the white house refused to listen to warnings about the situation on the ground. ovdisturbingly we have uncovered state department leadership prohibited, prohibited its employees from even uttering the word neo, shorthand for ergency evacuation. until as late as august of 2021. too little too late.ng this come learned the state department did not even request an emergency evacuationde after was surroundd byhe taliban. the airport was not secured until after

kabul felt. as the saying goes if you fail a plan, you plan to fail. andai did. the next two weeks create international outrage andfor thd states. people all over the world watched as babies were flung over barbed wire fence by mothers without hope desperate afghans fell to their deaths from airplanes. hordes of people's right of the their lives. our credibility, the unitedn and states credibility around the world, that damage will last for generations. our service members are forced to watch as american citizens and afghan allies were beaten and murdered outside the gate to the airport.

standby as tears brutalized innocent civilians. and then, then on t morning of august 26 we watched in horror as reports of a terrorist attack at abbey gate flood the news. thirteen u.s. service members werene murdered. with thousands more injured.ns h countless injured as well. some of the abbey gate gold started families members are here today. and we honor you. we honor your■m s to the families here today and to the american people i say i will not rest u the bottom of this tragedy. you deserve answers. the american people deserve

answers. deliver. with the last u.s. military plane left on august 30, 2021 cs remain trapped inap afghanistan. as were tens of thousands of afghanre a lives serving beside our troops and diplomats. many if not most of those allies are still trapped■' constantly n fear for their lives. how to thank both of our witnesses are being here today. despite current dod officials actively trying to limit your testimony, you have agreed to pe grateful to you. both of you for your service to our country andr service of this investigation. i also want to thank abbey gate gold star families for joining us here today.

while the president is never publicly stated the names of your children i will here today. their names are darren hoover. doheny rosario. nicole. hunter lopez. dagen page. i'm roberto sanchez. david espinoza. garrett schmitz. riley mccall. dylan. kareem. and brian noss. those are the names of the fallen. may god bless them. they will not be forgotten. without the chair note recognizes the ranking member. >> thank you,

let me start by thanking form and chairman of the chief of staff general mark a former commander of the central command general kenneth f mckeieior. for testifying before this committee today and sharing as you did before the house armed services committeedi%w in 2021 y military and policy insights of the united states withdrawal from afg you for the years of sacrifice and service to our great in a recognize the hundreds of thousands of american service members, and diplomats and development professionals that work to support the united states effort in afghanistan over the course of our presence in t country.

i want to alsoco recognize 2461o gave their life in afghanistan for our country. and of course that includes who my heart bleeds for the 13 bravn ice sister terrorist attack while facilitating the evacuaon people over the course of 17 days in august of 2021. as i previously said, president biden's efforts to end a 20 year war ins afghanistan and bring . while that decision was in our country's best interest, a number of conibutin withdrawal.

namely president gotti fleeing afghanistan on august 15, 2021. thees collapse of the afghan government. as we heard in our hearing just last month special representative for afghanistan reconciliation, former president trump dough hog deal empowered the taliban at the expense of the afghan■v government. but trump's administration commitment to facilitate the release of taliban prisoners in afghanistan and the afghan■é government, they were in their custody. initiated significant unilateral, u.s. troop drawdowns placed at taliban in the strongest position since the united states first arrived in afghanistan 20 years

despite the tile but not fully complying under the leverage with thet taliban. thee transition between the trp and biden administration it also ar the trump administration lacked a comprehensive plan for withdrawing from afghanistan despite the may 1 fast approaches. upon takingne office president biden conducted a thorough interagency review he had two options. the president can either continue the withdrawal started by his predecessor. or break thelr a and return us to an active war with the taliban. a decision that would necessitate at significant surge of troops time. the taliban made it clear backing out of the doha agreement would result in a

presumption of hostility they place our service members once more in their crosshairs. let me be clear not my opinion on the timeline. it's a picture painted by the afghanistan after review after actionep department which dod hs cooperated threats own reviews of the withdrawal. which is been comprised 100 hours of transcribed testimony. an 11000 pages of documents produced by the state department. i also likej reinforce the scope of afghanistan proper oversight of afghanistan requires an honest look back. not just at a few months but at the entire 20 years of war over for administratio. generals millie and mckenzie i

look forward to your continued helping us gain a better understanding so that we may learn from our successes and mistakes. want to commend the effort to e0 from afghanistan. wenderstand course of our interviews andof investigations this was an all hands on deck undertaking. while i am thankful such an airlift was successful given thn the ground, we must also scrutinize the lessons learned including from the tragic bombing at abbey gate. i look forward to hearing how the defense department similar to the state, afghanistan aar taken efforts to assess and so that we do not repeat those mistakes in the future. i'm a close just by saying i of our previously

bipartisan commitment to ensuring special immrant visas for the afghan allies who worked with u.s. service members and diplomats throughout our mission of afghanistan. this far the republican leadership i house refuses to increase the siv's to the administration's requested amounts. so i know chairman and the agree congress must act fulfilling our promises to them. and i hope to have your support in working with on getting that done. with that i yield. >> began can't ranking member yields let me answer thatking vn manner left behind to provide the visas necessary for them to get out of there. i am pleased toounc announce thr

yet it's being negotiated, we will have an agreement. with that i am pleased to have with us he today the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff general mark milley former command general kenneth f■s mckenzie junior. both generals played a pivotal role throughout the afghanistan. but also a rule threader nation's history. in many conflicts and i commend you for your service to ourdb nation. you arthel statements were made part of a record i will ask each of you to keep your marks you he finally subject to the veracity protections of section 1001 of title 18 of t makes it a crime to knowingly make any false, fictitious, or fraudulent statements to the, committee in investigation.

but that i know it recognize general mark milley for his opening statement. >> thank you german ranking member meeks. members of the committee and thank you for your efforts and what you're doing. i am grateful forere at general mckenzie bird my purpose is to help you form a holistic assessment of our efforts in afghanistan. bu today voluntarily to help the families of the fallen. the thousands the tens of thousands wounded in countless other members who suffer the invisible wounds of war. to help them get i am humbled to be here today with three gold star families from abbey gate. i know the other families could not makehe coming weeks. they know my feelings for them. they know there are no words by me or any general or any generay

politician or anyone that can ever bring back the fallen. cant honor their sacrifice to protect our country and be forever gratefulo answer the call for the colors. they paid the ultimate sacrifice and freedom to keep our nation safe we owedr them answers. i am committed to assist in the effort to get them answers. we should also not under any illusions we are not going to get all the answers are today. this process is going to take a considerable length of type muce record is classified beyond the scope of the open hearing. over two decades between 2001 s,and 2021 about 800,000 of us n uniform served in afghanistan and thousands of.

of those soldiers, sir airmen and marines give theirr almost 30,000 more were wounded 00and action countless other suffer those invisible wounds. th e gate. we must always honor all of our sacrifice. over two decad taliban bringing osama bin laden to justice and ultimately protecting the homeland. we lost over 200 u.s. international troop wounded in action. units under my direct command several tools and multiple years of combat in ira every commander whose ever serve in combat knows we personally issued the orders that time of that soldier's death or wounds. we also know it was the enemy that killed or wounded them. combat is an unforgiving

environment and those of us who have served in the brutality run combat live with the dark reality every day and eve night. we will live with that for the rest of the days of our lives for there's no military leader who's lost troops in comdoes no. so this is personal to me and i will do everything in my power to ensure these families and all know the truth and have the answers. at the peak of our military commitment united states had,00d about 20000 dod contractors. the senior the niceties began to stea troops closed bases in retrograde equipment. nothing we discussed today happened overnight. it was a process of withdrawal that expand a was acumen to effective many decisions over many years of war. and like any complex phenomenon there is no single8h causa outct multiple factors and

combinations. in the fall of 2020 as i previously testified publicly my analysis my personal analysis was accelerated withdrawal would likely lead to the generalan collapse of the security forces and the afghan resist and resulting in a large-scale civil war a complete taliban takeover. november 2020 dod rec reduce levels 2500 to generate 15, 2021 bradycardia ministration took office there is roughly speaking 2500 troops on the ground with about 22000 nato troops and contractors. beginning february 21 national security council conducted a 10 week inter- agency reviewed various options were presented . previous post public testimony i noted at that time my analysis based on my assessmentdations oe commanders to include general

mckenzie the consensus of the joint chiefs of staff we need to maintain troops on the ground. mostly special forces with allied troops and contractors in order to sustain the national security forces and its government until the diplomatic conditions of the agreement were met. without the support it was my view at the time it was only whn government would collapse and the taliban would take control. again, i previously publicly testified and consistently supported and negotiated end of iethe war but only at there is a reduction in violence leading to negotiations leading to a power-sharing agreement between the afghan government and the taliban. it is my view absent those conditions i was not in favor of a unilateral withdrawal of u.s. forces because of my assessment of the associated costs and risks.vd fundamental tension facing the president in fact to was that no

one could satisfactorily explain when or even if those conditions would ever be met. and if we state and definitely the open award would be on the taliban again with increased risk of additional casualties. on 14cr april 21 fight made the formal announcement of his decision to honor the dehart agreement whileai diplomatic presence. the department of defense understood our mission was to conduct a retrograde of the remaining u.s. forces and a small contingent to defend the american embassy while diplomatic outcomes were negotiated.re on 14 august the decision was made by the department of state's and the military alerted mobilize and rapidly deployed faster tha do. it is my assessment that decision came too late. the deployment of quickly took operational control was significant elements national

guard and special forces along with our partns nato forces for additional set of multiple basis to process evacuees and arm the countries the middle east. inarhort united states and military performed for the most incredible evacuations under pressure in recorded history. extremely difficult dynamic and. that performance is due to the individual bravery and compassion of every private who at the end of 20 years, we the military help build an army, state we cannot forge a nation. ment occurred. the military we supported for two decades faded away. that is a strategic failure. the military also provided help for 20 years to the afghan people we provided unprecedentee final days we have 130,000 people their lives and freedom

at very high cost. most importantly we protected the unite from afghanistan which are original mission and that continues today. there are many lessons to be learned war and the drawdown of forces and the final evacuation. mr. chairman have a lengthier paper for a written testimony alike to submit for the record with your permission picture pick archesthat objection so or. >> to the american people the most important lesson i think t] learn is that you are troops, denies its military from private to general that all the bravery and duty could eyou're militaryu successfully for 20 years continues to do that. for that, every american should be eternally grateful. twelve the veterans of afghanistan, hold your heads high i know there are several in the room today. know that you did your duty for each of you did what your country asked of you under

extreme circumstances. manyny of you let congressman ms use lens or grievously wounded. he did it selflessly with the professionalism, courage, compassion with great sacrifice. finally to the gold star families that are here with us today and those who could not make it there isat nothing i can say or do this going to fill the gaping hole in your heart. but as i have told you before, i am committed and i will honor itthat commitment to get you the answers. to get you to the truth and i will personally and i know everyone else will as well honor your sacrifice and the sacrifice of your love doing. thank you, mr. chairman and look forward to your questions. >> thank you general milley i now recognize for his opening■m >> thank you. [inaudible] >> use the microphone. ask list be submitted for the re real. jim mccall, establishment of the house foreign affairs committee

in here to voluntarily testified today about the military component of o w afghanistan. before i begin i like to reckon is the goldstar families that are here today. i hope that we discussed today will reduce their like general milley i'm humbled to be in the presence or today. as you are aware september 2021 i provide over 10 hours of ope subject to the two congressional committees charged with oversight of military operations for the house armed services committee and the senate armed service committee. much of my testimony will be of necessity near the earlier transcribed testimony. as a theater commander iconfineo those matters that were under my direct operational control. specifically the withdrawal of u.s. military forces and the subsequent noncombatant evacuation operation. these were twowo distinct and we detailed constantly updated plans for each of them. we executed both of those plans.

although separate in time and thanks to the valor and dedication, thousands of men and women from harm's way we completed bothut submissions but missions but notwithout loss of. thirteen brave americans who died a over 2400 other service members who lost their lives in this 20 year campaign. they arethere is sacrifice stane of the coalition partners and of course the afghans who fought beside us for so many years. i briefed president trump out a plan to depart afghanistan on three june 2020. this plan envisioned a complete withdrawal of all of our forces and our contemplated a possible withdrawal of afghans who had served with us. the plan had a number of options but it was t ultimately president trump selected a branch of the plan a that maintained 2500 u.s. in afghanistan by inauguration day in january 2021.

we have branches to that plan to co of 2021 had we been so ordered. on 11 april 2021 i received orders from president biden to f defense to execute a full military withdrawal by 11 september 2021. date was subsequently modified to the end ofthis decision did e the withdrawal of our embassy, our citizens and at risk afghans. had a complete plan to execute that task as well but were not ordered to do so. the president's decision was to maintain an embassy to not require our citizens to leave and of course do not expedite the extraction of adverse afghans this was not a military. we substantially accomplish the military withdrawal by july 12, 2021wa when i really general sct miller as the commander of u.s. forces in afghanistan. my orders they were to retain a platform 650 personnel solely

designed to provide secity for the u.s. embassy in international airport. during this period and with minimal to no support from us thee■ forces and more portly the government of afghanistan crumbled in the face of taliban pressure. orders to commence the noncombatantringing our embassy, our citizens and at risk afghans received on 14 august. these dates are important because i believe the events aue the direct result of delaying the initiation for several months. in fact until we w extremis in the towel bennett overrun the country. as you are aware the decision to begin at rest with the defense. despite this, we have begun positioning forces in the region as early as nine july. we could doo nothing the operation for the evacuation until it was declared.

our operations at the international from 14 august departure on early 31 august were both heroic and tragic. this was a combat operation of the most difficult sorts, carried out in contact with the enemy. we eventually put 5007 orat 84th u.s. troops almost 2000 more coalition and other forces, eight u.s. maneuver battalions on the ground that karzai international. i would like to talk a little bit about abbey gate. it was a tragic event one ofny e 20 year engagement in afghanistan. it remains my opinion that there is culpability in this attack at created the environment of august 2021. culpability and responsibility do not lie with the troops on tly. i does not lie with the platoon company or battalion commanders forr the flag officers who oversaw operations on thend. the simple fact is this. on the battlefield, even with good planning, tremendous execution by brave people on the

ground, the enemy sometimes success. to ignore the fact is to ignore the fundamental reality. there is fault in a policy in tn expose the force over time to the possibility of these kinds of attacks. we did not rely on the television for our security. we use them we avoided a number of pot attacks. i am proud of the commanders and troops that prevented them. small comfort who realize this. nevertheless what is remarkable is not that the tragedy of abbey gate happened. but that many other attacks didh this observation i was the overall commander i and i alone bear full military responsibility f what at abbey gate. thank you charm and i'm ready for questions. >> thank you general. i reckon is myself or questionss

here today. i want to thank you sir for your service. and your courage for testifying before this almost a year ago to the day. even a sniper at abbey gate and testified t us that he had the suicide bomber in his sights. that was identified on the be on the lookout pre s photos and otd documents to his commanding officer for permission to engage the suicide bomber. yet, that warning was ignored. he never heard back. i the chairman of the services committee, after that testimony sent a letter to the department of defense requesting these documents and sniper be de congress produce to the congress

by this document letter request. to date that has been ignored. the department of defense has refused. we have also requested the testimonies of general krista donahue and admiral peter hord the commanding officers on the ground during the abbey disaster. to both of you, general milley, do you think these over to the nine states congress? and do you think both the general donahue and admiral should testify bef quick short absolute do i believe transparency or are the board of directors for this corporation called the american go i believeev you are in title wih those in the bonds of classification absolute whatever documents are out there should be turned over to the appropriate committees of jurisdiction and oversight. whatever witnesses are needed to establish truth and transparency within the bounds of classification that should

absolutely happen absolutely that is why i'm here. >> thank you. >> general i agree with general milley and associate with him with his remarks.bout the state department who was responsible for the catastrophic emergency evacuation? not surprising to point their af defense. but i want to set the separate d record straight dod helps conduct emergency evacuation that is the state department that is responsible under law for developing the plan and leading the evacuation is that your understanding?ua >> yes. state department is the lead fede execution of noncombatant operation. and the department of defense is in support of in other and otherdepartments are in sup. worked on mckinsey? >> i agree with that. >> piquant to the state department responsible

under law for requesting the emergency evacuation is that correct? >> that is correct i think that at the ambassadorial level to chide the truth. have to check the law. the ambassador can make but typm and the secretary of state. >> is evacuation plan forth afghanistan? >> chairman, every embassy has an evacuation plan for afghanistan. and embassy kabul had a plan and had a list which is the list of u.s. citizens and their families that are in the country. d i struggled to gain access to that plan. we didn't get much of july until we got a decision to execute much of already mentioned 14th of august. now we work with the embassy before then but we did not have authority to move out and do te things that you have to do to

make any happen untily. excuse me the 14th of august and as i noticed we are extremist at that time. ■?>> fall of kabul and the evacuation of the embassy. august 14 is when they finally t for this plan? >> out is when he got a sort you urge the wte houo put pen to par to put americans and afghan allies out in afghanistan, correct? did. i was concerned by the middle of july. i was concerned about the different pace of deptment of defense planning as compared to department of state planning. i took an opportunity then to make representation to the secretary my concern over that. the ft we worked pretty fast on this. just based on it. went to the so

spend some time talking about that in follow up i sent a letter with 10 recommendations to the secretary on that. >> is that your recollection? >> aut without preaching things like executive privilege, et ceter frank mckenzie submitted, the general consensus of the military up through and including secretary was the embassy should be coming out the same as we are. after decisions are made to kee diplomatic presence there the situation deteriorated in the summer in the fall of the capitol et cetera. we are clearlyio pressing execute. >> they did eventually develop a plan? they had a>> plan.

it's is a second thing the is one thing. preparing the plan, vetting the plan, coordinate the player with who are actually carry out, the department of of. >> too little too late. >> it was my judgment was far too little far too late piquant as i do your assessment general milley? >> it was and i would broaden it a little bit by saying it's a pretty consistent assessment by me and others of they. that the withdrawal of the military forces and the contractors and the nato forces that went with it what ultimately is aet statement andl collapse of the government. and as i mentioned the tension was went where tho it was also our assessment at thee time keeping and embassy open in a war zone whichtan wast

without the presence of the u.s. military et cetera. untenable. >> that was your advice to state department in the white house? >> issue now becau of the requirements of executive privilege et cetera i can tell what my assessments were at the time and those are my thoughts at the time. >> you believe there is a ay# failure to plan timely created the chaos? at the airport? >> look called to executeam late mentioned especially on the 14th but at that point in time the afghan goverjvl+nmt preparing to depart and they departed the next on the 15th. thee thousands gathering at the rport of the afghan security forces were collapsing. they are sent in and around kabul at the general situation at that pnt 50

u.s. soldiers in and around the embassy. the turkish troops were required along with some to protect away. we do situation the u.s. embassy in 750 troops when that was called know we had the ninth, t, 11th time for them we'd already put forces on alert et cetera. in essence we alerted and deployed 82nd airborne division the brigade and under general mckenzie's control. they rapidly deployed long special forces to take control of that airport. it took two -- three days it's with the videos come from. they eventually got contrmol of the airport. >> general you agree with that assessment? >> i do pray that reflects the opinion i had at the time and the opinion i have n accountability ensures mistakes of the past are not repeated but from where i sit the presidented

to acknowledge their failures. there's an inscription at the national archives down the street that reads what is past site launches investigation to make sure the mistakes made in afgh never ever happen again. with that i recognized ranking with that i recognized ranking member. let me start by saying thank you. you are here voluntarily, is that sir. you received a subpoena at one point is that correct? >> ali received. >> the threat of being subpoenaed today? >> chair mccall mentioned you wanted us toó; appear. there are compulsory measures. is not necessary from the

beginning. there wasn't something in regards to a subpoena to come. correct? >> i was not subpoenaed for. >> i said the threat of a subpoena to come. it's compulsory. >> answers like this. retired ad classified hearings on afghanis. prior to retirement chairman mccall asked me if i be willing to discuss with the community as it absolutely yes. no subpoena no compulsory nothing for a said yes us out chairman mccall again after retirement and he, reminded me in january and february of this year worked out some of the details. i wanted totbol was supposed toe classified hearing i still think were going to do one of those after this brett that is breaths important to be classifiedos

hearing and discussion of a public hearing. speaking of that whenou before. is that correct question. >> i testify before the house and senate armed service committee since then and several other testimonies. quickset is correct. is your testimony -- is anything changed from when you were in uniformti testified today? has there been anything you did not testify to that you are testifying to now? is there any change of your thought of what took place today or what you testified to previous? me everythinger

i testified before is still accurate and true today. would be corrected. i have learned more about abbey gate during the investigation that was not available during previous testimony. read those investigations. cooks your testimony is still basically consistent. >> that is the same for me. >> is not really anything you knew learned today because you ? >> i will leave that to you all to determine if there's anything new. what has been made public. what has been public. it's basically. >>ranking member's i mentioned in my opening statement much of what i say today will mirror the 10 hours. >> this is not anything groundbreaking or anything being discovered newly.

it's something that's been out in the public from the time that you testified back i 2022, right?at >> nothing groundbreaking here. the fact of the matter is, let me ask this question. i think it was maybe you, general milley the framework for what took during the 20 years got to figure out what went wrong. what we nd t look at the entire0 years of being afghanistan. not just the last few months. would you say that iss correctn previous testimony read the writtenma remarks submitted for the record i elaborated on what i think 10 lessons are but there are many more pre-not going to learn all the lessons of a 20 year were in short session. there's a huge amount of lesns .

should we have gone after bin laden 2001 in the winter? we had him more or we thought we had him located. should be, could we have? yes. should weav in hindsight that would change the projective of the whole war. there's a whole series of lessons along the way. specific to this the focus is more recent relative the withdrawal itself.that is ce holistic view absolutely. that's going to take a considerable amount of time because you say the delhi agreement done in the trump administration had some connection to the conditions on the ground when joe biden became president? an to what took place at abbey gate. there is a nexus here, isn't that correct? >> the endgame if you the

final months the framework of that is set by the delhi agreement absolutely. we study to find out the findings of what we should do we should be tagged but what's exad during the trump administration as well as place on the biden administration because they are connected. they are not separate. if we are serious about trying to figure out what took place, d be looking at both. what that took place under the bush administration, the obama administration, the trump■a administration, is that not correct? >> from the joint chiefs of staff. for commanders in afghanistan so yes this absolute lessons to be arned fm this. the endgame using the delhi agreement if you want to say that's the start point there is a lot to b said for yourself.

as i mentioned in my opening statement there is no phenomena. >> my poin ierious look at this you cannot just take a peek at one little segmentin of it ad said this is the reasoneverythit looking at what preceded it. because we have to look at it in its entirety. isn't that correct? if you're trying to figure out how were going to make sure the mistakes that areou made if we take all of it and look at all of it. and examine all of it. not just peace milling that agree with that? >> yes i said that and i said in previous testimony a holistic look at the whole war and order to d■?eterminend anything as complex as a war is not a result of a single because there's ultiple decisions in general i agree.

i am here for these families to try to get themag answerse issun hand spray. >> the same amount of time he had ago not want to get cut off there. let me ask this. with the conclusion of the dough hot they stopped attacking u.s. forces inside afghanistan, is that correct? >> well yes, lethal attacks thee were some attacks not lethal attacks and by my m attack on te forces brick works let me ask this we are running out of timed to the dough hot deal that was to withdraw and i requote afghal military forces of the united

states, its allies, coalition partners including all non-nnel for private security contractors, trainers, advisors supporting service personnel is that correct? that was the dough hall deal done under the trump administration is that correct? >> that there were seven signed up too. i think you are rattled off most of the key ones. it was aup very explicit thing 13000 more or less u.s. troops when it was signed and then had a good 8600. >> let me ask you this. and so therefore the withdrawal wass well underway in january 2021 after pde forces. notwithstanding concerns about the taliban behavior is that correct? >> absolutely underway. the drawdown of forces was

underway. >> i don't have time but i would like to do a completeinvestigat. that is whatd i think our committee has ais responsibility so we can be transparent the american people on everything that took place in the 20 years in afghanistan. not just one piece but everyt if we are serious and not playing politics with this issue. >> a gentlemen's time has expired the afghanistan commission has been cmissned to look at the last 20 years the purpose of this investigation is to examine evacuation for i will hold the members accountable five minutes under the rules that we can get to every member on this committee who deserves to be heard. and we thank you for showing ud mr. smith. >> thank you, mr. chairman, thank you for calling this important hearing. thank you to the two generalsg for distinguished service to our country thank you so very much t. general milley you mentioned you

of 2500 troops remain. who rejected advice? was it the president? did you ever get a written or oral feedback as to why the rejected that thanks again i cannot say the president said this, the president said that that is beyond the scope of the war with executive privilege. it's obvious the president made the decision the president made our recommendation was as ih. mentioned. or our thoughts at that time were of that decision forme he's lo a much wider angle than the military angle or military assessment was keep 2500 with them it's not just 2500 its contractors. the contractors are key here. and that we thought, our assessment was a keep the afghan government and the military stable until such time as a

diplomatic outcome could occur in accordance with the conditions s >> in retrospect with that havea made a difference? >> we will never know because it did not happen. i do -- i believe the afghan government and the security forces were not of collapsed in august of 21 have maintained that postulates were high and specialp-8 capable of defending themselves and conducting operations as they had been for a while. my assessments probably moderate to significant risk on u.s. forces but is that worth the risk? the dough hot agreement had conditions but here is the e problem for two presidents. nobody that i recall could cohew it went and/or how those conditions the diplomatic conditions were going to be obtained. not a military problem.

how were those diplomatic? >> this diplomatic? >> i asked secretary of state st the infamous phone call with that phone call the transcript and apparently verbatim and listen to it. in it he said there is a it's ts the president united states thing is whether it's true or not there's a need to project a different picture about the cap. general mckenzie we talk about how there is no plan to get u.s. citizens out. then there's the bewilderment on wh flocking to leave they didid not have any way to dota it anyway. i am just wondering i asked blinken as if i don't talk about something that has been released. was it true? did heat say that? lying when you give the false imprsi americans when everything got out is very, very serious.

secondly let me ask because i will read of time. how many americans were left behind? again i thank you that you didhi everything you could to make this policy work. you were given a poly that was egregiously flawed. how many americans were left behind? how many of our allies and what has happened to them? had they been beaten, k■il tortured? what about the weapons that were left behind? the report some of it has found its way to home osprey do not know if that is true. i know you did anything he could on your way out to destroy them. but many were intact and left in the hands of the taliban. >> i cannot speak to the phone call. i do not have firsthand knowledge of that. the number of americans? this was always an issue the number of americans as jon mckenzie said every ambassador in every country through a keeps a report that supposed to track the americans, wre phone numberd if they are in country.

that was always a difficult number for us in the department of defense to get hold of it. i think it's true tactical level as well. and i will beer candid i do not know the exact number of americans left behind because a starting number was clear. the same is true of at risk afghans, siv, commandos, other afghans that serve withs. those numbers and varied so why that they are quite inaccurate. as best i could tell at the i would just say that i am not sure. even about the accuracy of those numbers. >> are they in jail? dead? >> i think some were killed. the africans i do not know about the americans. i don't think the americansfghae tracked down that worked with us. and i think some of them were killed. i am pretty certain ways. some escaped through various

means it. others laid low in cap their heads up. gentlemen's time has expired the chart recognizes mr. >> thank you. mr. chairman i wish we were having a hearing with these excellent witnesses on what is on people's minds. which is what is going on in gaza. we could discuss incredible difficulties of urban warfare the top expert on urban warfare at west poi has said israel has done at least as good of a job as any other military and minimizing civilian given the difficulties of urban warfare instead we have a highly politicized hearing blame biden. this hearing began with the title biden strategic failure. it iss myused to testify with that title. in any case they should have it.

we have now retitled the hearing but we have not repurposed it. it continues to be politicized. but it's a highly partisan hearing should not be held if you are in the party that made . let's put this in context. weadeal dispute whether we should leave 2500 or so american servicemen there for perhaps this decade in the followingdec. the dissent cable argued for that. a lot of the foreign policy establishment argued for that. n people, every single american soldier would be out. from that point we had no bargaining position. that is why the chief negotiator said it was well known by 2019 by the end of 2018 we will get every person out. and so what kind of agreement

did we enter into an dough hot?t negotiator in the world, then the president trump. it is an agreement that says it is okay for the child want to treat 12-year-old girls like sex slaves know pert prohibits nothing prohibits the taliban from killing people because they are part of the lgbtq community. nothing prohibits them from killing someone because they convert from islam to christianity. all they are required to do they talked perhaps and then they assume total power. and we could do nothing about it because we had promised the amer that absolutely every soldier it would be out and right before the election trump promised to have them all back by christmas of 2020. they trump administration 59 ever servicemen. 152 of our contractors accomplishing absolutely

nothing. we surrendered in 2020 we could have surrendered in but perhaps the most extreme partisanship has arise when sobe have attacked a president biden supposedly for not bringing back of the quote 85 billion to thinf equipment that we left behind. now this equipment was in the hands of afghans wthey could ken defense. they could sell it to the taliban they did not choose to bring it back to us and return it. so i will ask general milley, was there a way for us to go all around afghanistan and demand the return of our equipment? the afghan armed forces would be is that to resist the taliban. but if we had realized they were

h these afghans withtely could no casualties? >> and no of course not. >> we have incurred very substantial casualties if we had done what so many on the other side of the aisle have suggested. and thatof somehow equipment. we had done was so many on the other side of the aisle have suggested and that somehow get >> how does our withdrawal from afghanistan compared to our withdrawal from -- actually, another question, joe biden came in in january of 2021■was there a comprehensive plan, at that time, to both withdraw absolutely every one of our was the promise donald trump made to the american people, while

withdrawing in an organized way >> two points, if i could go back to the equipment. as i recall, i think the spec $80 billion worth over 20 years of military equipment that is with the afghorces that is afghan owned equipment. every piece of american equipment that the american with us with scott miller or he destroyed it on site and that's a fact. so the idea -- >> so this is an attack on biden -- >> mr. wilson from south caroli. reports from the institute february 2024 to

corruption. >> thank you mr. chairman and we appreciate your service. but we just have■,■u from what's occurred the appeasement in afghanistan. the decision to appease is the worst foreign policy national security decision i believe in the history of the united states. it led to the encouragement of dictators invade the democracies of the rule of law. we saw that on february 2022 when the ukraine. we saw that october, 2023 when the regime in tehran israel. we see it today is the largest military buildup that's being conducted by the chinese communist party to threaten taiwan. the global war on terrorism continues with open borders and

american families have never been a greater risk attack. as a 31 year veteran of visitedr times witho our personnel with bob livingston our troops an and i saw them serve with their afghan brothers just as you did and do to encouragement i am particularly grateful my oldest son received a doctorate and baghdad international airport and third southern border served and my youngest in afghanistan and me the biden decision that led to the 13 deaths of the servicemembers is inexcusable and i felt assured of knowing the capability

very concerned that you were blamed on august 26, 2021■n b se withdrawal of forces was a decision i the military, and he said he had letters that indicated you said there should appeasement. i sent a letter that today to the president asking for copies of the letters and every couple m another request. it has not been provided so there are no letters and it's the responsi united states, his decision that resulted in what occurred putting american families at risk. with the agreement was there a violation that was

conditions based and were there violations by the tell a the agreement? >> i will let general mckenzie fics but they violated every condition. yes, they were in violation. they didn't renounce al qaeda or do afghan negotiations. every condition except the one about attacks on the coalition forces and in particular they stepped up during this period because they agreed to withdraw substantive air combat and they took advantage of that opportunity. >> i appreciate donald trump in based and they were violated and that would have led to his view

of maintaining. what is your position? >> it's my position that it linked to my recommendation we should have held the 2500 of the 2,500 u.s. forces if you also assume would allow the afghans to stay in the fight you could maintain base. >> protecting american families and as we conclude, we still have asi decisions and that is that we have seven weeks ago three young americans who were killed, army reservists from georgia and this was decision of mr. bryden who didn't follow through on trying to stop these attacks on the troops■j by iran and we lost the servicemembers over 40 injured. the president needs to take this seriously. weon■z in a conflict existential of our country. >> the gentleman yields.

>> thank you, chairman, and general mackenzie for your service and for coming voluntarily to testify important information to the committee into the gold star families and i join you in extending my condolences for making the ( ultimate sacrifice that is certainly we can never repay but we are trying to get answers for you and we want to extend condolences fo over 2400 goldstar families that were not able to join us here today whose families made the ultimate sacrifice over the 20 years of this war. there were certainly issues that had to be addressed and i've been very clear about that and have endeavored to get answers with my colleagues but i also want toe provide some important context and that is ending the war is never it's never clean and the fact that you know better than me, retrograde operations are some of the

dangerous things we ask our military to do, so i want to provide some of that context. you said in the agreement that president trump and his administration entered into with of the taliban withdrawal of u.s. forces and diplomatic. youu said had we notwith that ae would be open war with the tell a man. thatum they had kept their agreement not to attack u.s. forc that allow us to withdraw and reduce our footprint. so here today had we not withdr ended the war would we be at open war with the taliban? >> i think the probability is greater thanotat operations.

the current admintr that extendl september i guess it was to buy some additionalime, but there is little question in my mind that had the united states, the president's agreement withdrawal we would have been back at four. general mackenzie. >> i generally agree with what the general said, but thought about keeping 2500 beyond. we thought it needed to be coupled with an aggressive negotiation program with the taliban, one that perhaps was to view more sticks and not all carrots, so i think you need to change the approach to the negotiation if you decide to stay. i think it is possible to invite the taliban but that is a counterfactual that we know the answer to. >> i was one of those voices that joined you■0■gnd tt is

something that i thought would have been better and could have led to a smoother evacuation, a. what i want to talk about is this issue of who. you talked about getting a fact of the matter is the united states know where ever requires its citizens to register, so in no insnc ever fully know what americans are onn the ground than in these situations. is thatya correct? very, very difficult. it's a voluntary thing. encourao register, but i don't know of any compulsory. >> and alsoany dual citizens. is that accurate? >> that's correct, yes. >> many of them non-american

citizen family members, is that right? many of them until the last moment wanted to until they knew didn't want to leave their family, is that accurate? so even if we had started the day there wouldn't have been a crisis as the afghan governmentt and security forces clash because people finallye needed to get out. that probably wouldn't have changed even if we started earlier. >> hard to know but it's certaiy possible. >> last piece, part of the story that is not yet written and that our allies who are still there. we have an obligation to get them out. there is a called the afghan allies protection act, a bipartisan bill. i would encourage

colleagues who are here who are not cosponsors to sign on because we can still do write and save lives by passing the building and providing a pathway for our friends to get out and with that i will yield back. >> the chairec. perry from penn. >> thank you for your service and we honor the goldstar families and servicemembers here today. a mackenzie, were the rules of engagement at the time of the gate incident sufficient for those like tyler vargas to protect themselves? >> it's my judgment they were and we went in with a standard for afghanistan. others three main components to it. first of all the out here and right of u.s. service members anywhere in the world has the right to defend him or herself against the threat.

we were operating under that and at the same time we've extended what we called collective self-defense through our partners and allies so you could take actions to defend the bridge or your afghan partners. the third component ofat that ut action authorities which allow a strike for people that are not in direct contact with you particularly in the for the sele threat. the last point i would make is the exercise of self-defense seh legal effect three times in kabul on a 16 and i believe 22, 26 august. >> okay so sticking with thenerd there was no specific attack or no specific intelligence existed and that therea was nobody that fits that description. does that remain true today?

>> were you aware after the attack thatt servicemembers had requested. a combatant commander might not be aware of righte on the line are aware o, but post the circumstance, were you concerned about the intelligence you were getting regarding the action you were about to take on the would-be attackers network? >> on or about the 26th we verye threats. we were looking at the threat f a vehicle ied, a person born ied which was the abby gate attack, and rockets and independent inside attacks one that gets in and blows iel

so, we had dozens -- >> you had nothing fitting the description of what your had. >> descriptions of -- >> when the service member on the line is looking at on the dn and he's got the rules of engagement but at that point they require him to check with his commander and he does not get is exceptionally concerning. i get to the circumstance that there's a man here ttet the answer he needed to so thursday august 26, the attack happens. three days later on august 29, the drone strike occurs. you said we had up to six and if

intelligence that proved these were the people that just attacked the gate. >> that's not correct. that's what i've got here for open source reporting. >> may be some of that is not correct but regardless of the fact on the 29th the drone strike occurs and kills other children. five days later the pentagon admits there w a mistake, five

days later. general millie, when did you know the drone strike was -- >> on the civilian was a failure? >> when did i know it -- >> five days before the pentagon said it was a mistake when did you know? >> probably day four or five. i didn't■miw right away. and who did you tell when you knew? >> i don't remember the specifics but they would have called me and said we -- >> does anybody else in the

administration know at that iepoint that it's there? >> i don't know. telling us we got the target and apply to the american people not having a clue. who did you tell? >> i tel if we have enough principals meetings, we go through the details of the strikes. but i guess i am trying -- >> if you are saying did we tell the president of the united states or whomever other than the secretary defense that there wasri a■lm memory i think general mackenzie would have called me and would have informed of the secretary defense or called the chain of command and i might have been there at the time. i don't remember the actual date or the individual i mentioned. the procedures were executed

correctly. it's a tragic mistake. >> lied to the american people and all these families lying any trying to deceive. i know that's not what i was doing. it's a pretty big mistake. i y b>> i ask unanimous consent o sit on the dais and participate. wit recognizes mr. snyder. >> thank you mr. chairman and general like my colleagues here i distinguished service to the nation we are very grateful. i share your compassion and gratitude and extend my condolens t and all those that lost loved ones and made the ultimate sacrifice with over 20 years of action afghanistan into the thousands wounded both with injuries that are visible and of those that are not. i've said today, no single factor determines the outcome.

actions contributed to what ultimately happened in afghanistan. you said there was a whole series of lessons along way, and if i come to something, i think if i got it right when you were talking wit t ranking member, that the start was the agreement in 2020, is >> that's a way a historian could look at it when there was a decision but the administration it's a ten year process of drawdown. the endgame is itself was a continuum of unbroken cause and effects. >> what were your thoughts at the time of the signing of the agreement in 2020?

to be that there is a state department operation done. i wasn't it was an 18 month process that began before i became the chairman. that process goes on. he knew mt it. we knew there was a negotiation going on the specifics of which didn't know the terms of the ne about that from the secretary after the fact, and it were given the classified annex to the agreement. but no, we didn't participate in the development of the terms nor ions. >> when the decision was to draw down to 2500 by i think you said inauguration day, did you see that is something that was sustainable to get to the ultimate goal or did that with

the forces at undue risk? >> my assessment was 2500 u.s. troops and again these are high-end special course troops with of the force. >> at any time between the agreement and january, 21 and 2500 or even a pro and ongoing was e negotiations further evidence of progress being made and negotiations between the television and the government would give confidence that we could achieve the conditions that were laid out in the agreement? >> i don't actually know that. i think it is a question for the state department because they have better visibility.

i'm almost positive that there were no substantive negotiations. i am not aware the -- the baagreement it's one of the requirements, one of the conditions that the reduction in violence and now to a cease-fire that would lead to a negotiated a settlement between afghanistan and at the telegram. obviously the taliban didn't adhere to those conditions. they blew through those but that was part of the agreement. >> i'm almost out of time, butti think quickly realized they didn't need to negotiate and

they could achieve their goals by means. would you mark the tipping point where the outcome was all aboutt certain. it was probably long before august of 2021 i imagine. >> i would sayçl two points. one is because it was negotiated between the government of the united states into state department dorganization, it wal agreement, that kind of pulled the rug out, morale■ wise, and the government itself because they knew with certainty that there was aa date certain so there's a■, to figure out exactly what that is. the observable tipping point of the collapse of the afghan military center clearly is in

july4f. it falls i think the sixth of august and then in the next ten days they start falling all the way the end of july right at the beginning of august it becomes evident that the afghan security forces are crumbling, and that is where it comes up. >> that's about the >> the chair recognizes mr. wegner. >> thank you mr. chairman and to the witnesses for their time and service to our country. certainly our families that have joined us and those that have not today. one of the 13rom my community in missouri, the lance corporal. i also want to remind our viewers and colleagues here today that the title of this

particular hearing is an assessment of the biden administration's withdrawal from afghanistan by america's generals. even today, two and a half■q yes after the biden administration botched withdrawal after countless hearings, and the incompetence that led to the abandonment of afghanistan absolutely astounds me. warning sign after warning sign as it allowedd afghanistan to collapse the total betrayal of d women and our allies of afghanistan and the subsequent shameful withdrawal as an ally

and a leader and because of the biden administration's actions, the american communities are less safe and of the world is much more dangerous unstable. we are paying the price now. the conflicts roiling the globe, general, those responsible must provide answers as you've said over and over again but also they must be held to account. general, i ask the following questions not to just as a member of congress but also as a mother and army ranger■y who served on your command in combat and afghanistan. so let me ask both of you did you engage with our nato allies and others about the plan before

president biden announced his deci to zero in april, 2021? >> absolutely that was fundamental. the slogox at the time was in together, out together so we coordinated multiple times with our allies. >> did the going to zero prior to or after the withdrawal announcement? general mckenzie? >> yes they did and it was my belief to say the 2500 we would have hadrobably 5,000 and may be more than that. >> including the trump administration. >> did our allies inform you woe u.s. went to zero? >> yes, they said we will be aligned with you and that they would follow our lead because

the unique capabilities of the united states couldn't stay without ourto presence. >> it was nearly complete by july. more than a month ahead of the august deadline. why was the drawdown executed so quickly and did you at any point believe the process was moving too fast? >> it was by design from the very beginning. we wanted to get out as quickly as we could because we believed. reporter: a broad safety and would give a cushion because of unanticipated -- >> what orders were drivingg, the speed? >> concerns about that alabama attacking as lord about isis being able to carry out attacks d also the desire to have room at the backend in case we had to travel, weather problems, aircraft problems that slowed ut happen -- >> it isn't clear that the afghan military into some of our

allies for that matter were not ready withdrawal occurred. did you ever consider the piece of the drawdown is loaded to ensure the afghan military was able to successfully transition and if so, why was such action taken? >> it was read in from the beginning about the piece ofawae that waiting another 30 days would have had any material impact at all. >> general, have the taliban been carrying out a campaign of retribution reprisals and revenge killings against the afghan allies that we left behind? >> i believe yes, absolutely. a systematically. >> systematically. i yield back. >> the chair recognizes mr. phillips. >> chairman malley, general mckenzie, thank you f y sacrifices. to my colleagues on both sides thatth served, thank you for yos and to all of you in the room atlies in the room if you'm

raise your hands those of you here representing loved ones, i'm one of you and i know how you feel. veole life having lost my father in vietnam you can imagine the questions i have to this very day with the help of the chair man's office and the chairman himself, i was able to go back to vietnam foror the first timen my life and march of last year i went to the very dirt where my last breath and i can tell you from that experience it is where i'd my first and when i came home i first of all, one of the answers is this little piece of plastic the voting card that we use in the house chamber and the capital land where we make decisions that can make and take life it is true in the white house and it is true with our

gera services and the weight of that is something that changed me forever about what i also recognized is how remarkable the were. the people's army, our own people in vietnam, how gracious, hospitable, kind, they saw my r. my question to you, general, is this. what do we need to do today in afghanistan to ensure families here and families with the 2400 2400others can one day return ad have the same blessing that i had to visit the dirt where my father was ñq >> i don't think there's anything immediate. it would take years upon years and my view i believe the tale of man is still a terrorist organization. i still believeth they conduct

perfect retribution inside of their ownwn country, and i wouldn't recommend to any family member at this time to return. there's probably diplomatic initiatives that could be done in ahead, -- >> that's my question if it was 54 years, what do we need to do now?o plant the seed to sow that people can return. >> i served several tours in afghanistan and lost a lot of people.? i have a problem reconciling. my father had a problem reconciling. the war is a horrible, terrible thing. and now i'm carrying that with me and will probably go to the grav with it so i don't know how long it will take but it will take a long time. >> general mckenzie, any thoughts on what we need to do with this institution a members of congress why do we need to do now? fifty years from now.

>> the principal concern right now should be the fact that al qaeda and isis had the opportunity to gather strength with a desire to attack your homeland so we should begin with concern about that. it's more difficult than before. what should we be doing now? >> we need to connue to resource so they have the opportunity to do surveillance. i'm out of that picture now. but i think we need to keep an eye it. it's very important. in the long-term it is decades away before there's going too be any. they do harbor entities that have the desire t do that and i think right now it was hard for me to get beyond that relentless focus. i have about 50 seconds left.

the u.s. has ais of making more successfully, sometimes not andge a tradition of making peae of our former enemies our dear friends and allies. are there things we should be thinking about right to making r enemies? >> in the case of afghanistan it's hard to find ground. i'm probably not the right person to ask. you might ask someone from the department of state or usaid because there are some opportunities there but from my perspective i tend to focus on security issues are profound. >> to the goldstar families, my mission now is to ensure some day you can go back because and powerful. the gentleman yields and recognizes the veteran from

afghanistan who made a sacrificesoation and to afghanistan. >> thank you chairman and a generals for your attendance ana uniform in defense of the country. i think any of us that put on a uniform one the next generation to wake up every to say the country is still worth it. it's one of the most important reasons we have the hearings and we do these oversights, so that everybody can wake up and say yes this isst a place that is worth it. i want to ask some questions about targeting. i've watched your interviews, to leaving uniform. as you can imagine it's a great personal interest to mean thees÷ me and thegoldstar families thr. we left on august 30, 2021. we lost 13 servicemembers 26th 2021 and moving behind those dates, do you recall the

last time it was that america targeted somebody specifically for the purpose of termination on the 25th, the 24th, whether it be isis, taliban, al >> we targeted the pnc >> that was two days later. >> prior to the 26th. >> it would have been quite a while before we actually strarg. it had been a lengthy period of time. it was probably many weeks before we strike a target that you would develop and strike a e target. our strikes were during that period particularly after the agreement we were in directnd that became increasingly difficult as the aircraft were repositioned so the str increas.

now the afghan struck deep targets and we had limited visibility and i they were necessarily effective in those strikes. >> i want to get to that a little bit. one of your interviews with fox and you said specifically there were a wide variety of targets the u.s. military told that taliban to look at. when did that envelope change and what did it look like, which targets were we choosing to to d which will be keeping for ourselves? what it meant that threshold saying the u.s. is goingd to ht this -- >> i prefer to talk about it in a closed session but we passed the taliban information on the were in close proximity, please is where we thought it was gathering and my might be preparing totr about 1e

targets that we passed and they took action on some of them. i can't tell you if they took action on all of them because wd strike them with a drone obviously they struck out the obligation and whether it may have taken action but i can tell you we did that i believe 18 times and by that, after 15 august when we left the countrys sincee we targeted somebody prior. >> and we were not targeting before the 15th of august in any number ten afghanistan. but specifically i was answering your question about the taliban because the relationship is a direct highly transactional relationship based on the withdrawal between the 15th of august and 30. here's the reason the timeline looking at that is important to

me. you were speaking about iran and the failure of the biden administration not that we should drop ordinance on them tomorrow, but that they should be on the list just so that there is■ deterrence, so they know they can't act and not have a response by the united states of america and that is a failure determine the terminology that will take it on off the target list was to give iran aid and comfort were the exact words, and it's my opinion that if we are ceasinga to target al qaed, isis with the taliban in those days leading up to august 206th, as you of targeting, i would look at that lack of

comfort and in that, general, my time is expired. >> the gentleman yies b >> thank you mr. chairman and welcome to both of the witnesses. general, as an american i want for your service and how you've conducted yourself in that service. america owes you a my hometown f boston, just outside boston if i understand correctly. your father fought in world war ii. and your mother was a nurse that meserved in the u.s. naval resee duri is that correct? >> she worked in a hospital in seattle, that's correct. >> auntie and uncle that served in the koreawar. >> to, one in the philippines andr? the other in the korean w. >> is it fair to say that your

family really answer a callwa to say including bearing arms. you are proud of that service? and the retired colonel one incident where they ran across a in order to prevent u.s. tanks from blowing up. on last year, donald

trump said, talking about you,a trainid wreck who is dealing wih china to give them up. this is an act so egregious that in times going by the punishment would have death. and called you a and said in a better society, referring to the leader of norway during world war ii like our colleague, general millie would be hung, unquote.

what is your reaction to those statements about you especially given you and the service, distinguished service to the united states of america as we are discussing patriotism and protecting troops i wonder how you respond to the kind of slander that i just read political figures. and if you could move the microphone closer so we can hear you. >> i don't agree with of the eople can say what they want. with all due respect, i'm here for the families of anti-gay it in for the families of those that served in afghanistan. i will leave those comments as much as itr don't care for them and agree with them they have the right to say them, but i would like to stay focused on these families. >> i think that is in keeping with the honorable tradition.

i find of the comments inconsistent with of the honor we are trying to bestow on those that have served nobly their country. honor and respect. and those kind of comments are dangerous and of view who serves or seeks to serve public office and as a member of this committee, i want you to know i renounce them ae a very different view of your service. thank you for serving the american people. >> thank you mr. chairman. general millie, general mckenzie, thank you for your service. on july 2nd, 2020 when the the t without identifying the bases the commander who discovered the u.s. departure more than tw mild

left. general millie, what's your assessment of the time thatñb te airbase was most strategically important based in afghanistan and across the region? >> i think it was astrategicall. however, at that point the troops had been drawn down to a there was no question closing it asfar as the specific informati, -- >> was it a key component of the capabilities to and is the airbase the only u.s. airbase in coury with a physical border with china? >> we had several previously but at that point in time that was .

>> who made or gave the order to abandon bagra a decision and announces that on the 14th ofra april and the decision very simply was withdraw u.s. forces you to kee. the embassy is going to remain in kabul and if you ever have to do a neo then you have to use the intnational airport■d as the evacuation airfield. >> had it been conducted versus kia? >> you don't have the forces to defend. it's that you don't have the forces to defend. it would have required roughlybu speaking of the forces are defending it it would have required about 5,000. if the afghans are there with you you could have defended it.

>> to remove u.s. forces you don't have the option of keeping bagram. >> wid order, who specifically gave the order, and i assume the order was delivered to general miller.mmendation toe u.s. forces. i can'tec keep bagram with 750. the recommendation the plan was brought up to the chain of command.as the order given agait military advic nowa because the previous decisn is a strategic decision to withdraw the u.s. forces.ku >> you stated they were operating at different speeds. do you believe that if they were on the same pace they could hav?

>> the key point is this once you gos below you can't hold. act 2.5 i was enthusiastic about holding bagram. >> neither one of you recommended to go below. >> my position then and now is to stay. >> presidents make decisions and once the decision is made, we execute. but the point here that i'm trying to make is the refusal to abide by the recommendations that both of you made would have preserved the option to maintain and execute from background. my question what it have been a? ■p to have it at 2.5.

there's a lot of reasons you would want that second airbase and it would have helped had you beenoi■k at the level that it would have allowed. >> it was the fact the resourc weren't there to actually carry out a successful. general, did you ever make a request to seize bagram either before or after august 15th? >> we had plans and i prefer to talk about them in a closed ss had plans to do a variety of things. >> i think your advice to the political leadership was the ily because we lost a key strategic asset in the fight and now in retrospect looking at, we have competition with china, we don't have an airbase and with that i will yield. >> the chair recognizes

mr. dean, ms. dean. it's the second time i've done that.dg >> thank you, chairwoman. [laughter] >> touche. [laughter] >> we need a laugher thank you for holding this hearing. thank you, general extraordinary careers of service to the country and the sacrifice to both you and your families for the service of the country. i also recognize the servicemembers of all of our military some of whom are the 2f the conflict in afghanistan the more than 2400 who gave their lives for thisre country, for ts democracy, for the rights we prize. i alson, recognize the gold star families who are in the room you know i care desperately that you get the answers that you need,

and i appreciate that both of our testify years here today have talked about that it is a u deserve. it's not about a single day or a single month. you deserveve the answers to we. to the veterans and families, and i see the veterans urgent and your family, thank you for being here yet again. september of 2021, the secretary defense lloyd austin said at the timing of the evacuation as for when we start, we offer input into the state department decision mindful of the concerns that movingst too soon might cae the collapse of the afghan government that we all wanted to avoid. i wanted to ask both of you what

role did the sudden almost instantaneous collapse of the government play in the following the withdrawal? can you speak to the collapse that seems to have surprised most people? >> we depended upon afghan support to hold a perimeter. itit was probably the most significant operational affect effectof the collapse of the afn government and the military.o t. we saw it as a possibility but that's why we had to put in almost 6,000 forces to replace those that meld away. we would have been able to hold with a smaller number of u.s. forces had the afghans remained but when the government collapse theyt away so that had a profound effect on everything else that followed. >> general? >> with respect to what the general was saying that was a concern of the state department,

but there was a general consensus. the issue is timing on when that would have been. most of the assessments indicated the intelligence assessments were told ths sort of thing. atthe collapse cou b thanksgivi, something like that. nothing indicated august per se. having said that, i t that we certainly were advocating for the parallelng withdrawal of the embassy personnel and citizens with the military prior to the events of august. >> and what role? >> at that point in time, i don't want to make comparisons, but if the military stays and they are fighting tooth and nail

in this particular case, the entire cabinet one went up and the rest of them got on airplanes and took off. as soon and stays all that they took their uniforms off adown at collapsed. to be wrong but under the agreement, the drawdown to 8600 troops by june was ruired but my understanding is the subsequent withdrawals were at president trump's discretion, 4500 by november of500 by january of 21 as a new administration is about to take place. it didn't seem ideal by the defense officials. on what basis did president trump order in january of 2021?

>> to back up the requirement to go toj]er the signing of the agreement. to withdraw to 4500 and hold of the 4500 until all the conditions were being met. removed from office on the night of november and at the 11th and 12 i was handed a piece of prese that had two sentences. one was withdrawal by the 15th of december, and then withdrawa. the acting secretary defense ad i and others went over to the whiteouo confirm the order because we haven't been consulted. so we did and that order was rescinded the 17th of november■. another order was received and

assigned by the national security advisor to the president which directed to com. 2500 was always given to the two consecutive presidents. >> and momentarily the former president placed in order to withdraw. somebody mentioned that there was discussion of everybody's home by christmas that kind of thing. thank you chairman and ranking member for holding today's hearing. i want■ thank you for coming before the committee. we do hear the testimonies and i thank you for your service.

following the chaotic withdrawal fromsident biden stated that he owes no apologies for how the withdrawal was conducted. i disagree. to this date we are still unclear on how many americans were left behind in afghanistan and remain. our service members with translation services and intelligence withdrawal was not carried out in a way that was dismissive of adviceoming from the top leadership. president biden also promised in a news interview a few days after takeover of couple that if there are american citizens left, we are going to stay all out. that's not happened. promise in

order from the president? hat inin order. we receive orders from the white house in formal ways. it's been like this for decades. they are assigned by the national security advisor to the president and then that is transmitted to the secretary defense chain of c the joint staff and chairman take the orders and turn them into military orders to transmit to the combatant commanders, souldw or any other means of communication. >> general mckenzie? >> i t correct. >> was there any contingency planning to ensure no citizens would be behind? >> after we departed --

>> asking prior to thewithdraway planning with the state department? >> we always planned for capacities. at the very beginning they worked with a nbe about 150,000. that's how many people we thought it goes back to june of 2020. that is a number that we thought is to make sure you get the airplanes to move them and process them but it's up for the department of state to h categoe those people and how are you going tod get them there and tt is when i would talk about the different velocities of the two with our ability to do that. we talked about how the president promised during the interview but when did you realize prede promise would be broken? >> i'm sorry?

>> when did you realize the every one of the american citizens left would get them out? y of 2021 i was concerned given events in afghanistan about the state planning and ability to execute. i've never thought we would get everybody out. you're never going to obtain perfection but you want to get the number as small as possible. ..■u

if we did notot leave by the 31st it was clear to me, from our intelligence reporting and a number of other sources we would've been fighting the taliban. i thought we went to get up by the 31st and then there's diplomatic means to bring your citizens that don't get out by the 31st, out. otherwise you're going to have to pour thousands more sources in afghani there permanently impair your opportunity to get citizens out. not to mention the tens of thousands of at-risk afghans you would like to get out that ra a much higher risk requests let me ask my last question. you previously testified you b¤th recommended against keeping u.s. forces in afghanistan past august 31. so why would you recommend thiss and tens and thousands of afghan allies left behind? quick to the very same reason the charm and just outline. wo the 31st you are already at a very small number you would've had to increase that number by tens of

thousands in order to have stayed there and continued fighting out what would be the taliban. as far as the american citizens it was not clear then and still not clear to me what those numbers are or were. that was never clarified by anyone in the state department where they are who they are are they unless you put tens of thousands of troops in there, we could not be pumping on a country does not warrant trying to look person. it's just not realistic this on unfeasible course of action. by the end of august especially after the absently not feasible. at that point in time your choices are extended well into september, october, you can look forever you don k and you don't know where they're at. those were not feasible or acceptable courses of action at the time. although i do understand the human desire did not know the numbers did not know where they were so and so forth not a

realistic option. >> thank you very much for cogently's time has expired the chair recognizes mr. moskowitz regards thank you, mr. chairman. thank you generals for your service to the country. on echoing comments of my com goldstar bouncer here and were here earlier paying the ultimate sacrifice for our country. i also want to r service. while people doreat country. i want to thank our colleague cory mills who over the week of getting people out of haiti and i hope mr. chairman we cme situation going on there. this obviously is a very important topic today on what happened with the withdrawal from afghanistan. why it did not go according to what the experts pentagon

and our intel community believed.po we need to know what gaps exist in part we need to know how that happened. whenessons learned and most importantly how do we prevent something like this happening in the fure? we had soldiers die over the 20 years of war andev we had soldis die on the withdrawal. multiple things can be true a lot of times in this town it's in and/or kind of deal. was resr biting was responsible. i think in afghanistan it's and there were mistakes made in the withdrawal.or i think the american people think they were mistakes made in theth withdrawal. i that. what's the opposite of that they withdrawal was perfect in every thing went according to plan?

general you think miss made in the planning phases things we thought were going to happen that did not happen or things on t groundhat unfolded you think mistakes were made in that process? >> there is zero and doubt in my mind there were mistakes made is the direction is to identify and implement in the future. the fundamental mistake the flaw was the timing of the state deme that was too slow and too late. that then cause a series of last couple of days.n there's a lot of other mistakes made along the way i try to cover them in the written statement to submit to you that was germane to this particular hearing and that was key.

that was fundamental. cable i won't discuss here. do you think some of the intelligence that ywl all used, our military leaders use? >> for the intelligence we pulled off in the summer of 20 e with the doha agreement from 86 -- 45 you're pulling advisors of the so call the afghan battalions. with that then means■8 we blindd ourselves. when you pull those advisors up. weng relied on electronic meansr technological means in order to be able to see what's happening with the afghan security forces. technology cannot read a person's heart for they cannot see the negotiation g taliban wt our ability to sense that environment predictions.

that's true in the military at large et cetera. i thi t gap was our ability to see into what was happening on the ground because we pulled our advisors out and tu out. >> mistakes were made by multiple administrations over 20 i am sure we can point to after the review is completed. was it a taliban you call a terrorist organization to camp david? >> i will not comment on that i will set it up. i think one of the key ones is the development at large in t early 2000. the number of security forces were too small.

we had estimated the militaryss. half of those were policed they were■8 not designed well for counterinsurgency. look at what is 75000 army the tephone field about 100,000 taliban. your forced ratios between the insurgent and the regime forces was always imbalanced more in favor of the child at that century over in pakistan these were decisions from 2004, 2005 and these have consequences to the war. by the end of the day there is imaging going, tried to build we did not have commando and special forces until late. there's a whole series of these the go way back in that ultimately end up in a collapse of the afghan security forces with intensive pressure of the

summer of 21. s expired because the chair recognizes. >> thank you,me mr. chairman. and generals. a couple of quick stories. one is related to the goldstar families. did not lose his life but severely severely injured in the blas his real name, call him josé and he is a marine. 240-pound a machine gun at my first met him was about he was recovering from hist injuries. this young man is so dedicated to his country he re- opts. fortunate for the marines they did not take him back. he is now a navy corpsman. what i am frustrated about what seems like subservient behavior in the state department and dod.

it seems some individuals within the departments chose to save face for theof administratioraty bringing home rather than bringing some shame policy that was a disaster general milley you talked with a number of citizens how it's impossible to know who was there. i fout the television when i was watching a deity i'm sorryam secretary blinken and others within state department briefing sayingestim. citizens. most of who chose to stay in afghanistan.otal bs like to seee actual words but i'm trying to not, restraining myself. my office alone hearly 200

open cases. 200 cases not 200 people, 200 cases in my congressional district and as i talked i'm sorry my colleagues they were having similar numbers.id know that u.s. citizens over there or where they were what they are doing is a complete fallacy. state department should have been talking to us and they were not. the other story i have on that is about one of the he was an interpreter with the he is the u.s. citizen now. he is here in the states his wife is not as fortunate. her first two attempts she was beaten almost to death by the telephone. now thereblem.

the u.s. embassy has in her passport and all of her information. guess what they did? they destroyed it all. they destroyed it on the retrogradede soap she had to prt off a letter she could then sh prove to the taliban? where she was going. after the second meeting she left we are getting literally phone calls into the office was literally talking too her in the middle of the night. the third time she went as when the explosion and abrogate happened.e fortunately for her she was not one of the 170 afghans that were unfortunately for my constituent, josé she was not oneen of the 13 americans who ws killed. wheat welcomed her home to the united states this past weekend.

finally. that is not an indication of a broken broken policy and broken system i don't know what it is. i know she is dealing with literal physical and psychological scars real quickly general mckenzie what mackenziet information about american citizens to the u.s. past of the taliban? >> very limited information. you really need to talk to state because they are the agency that did it was designed toet them■ through typically in convoys into the compound. you need to go to the department of state. >> too. >> you aware of the claims even by some state department employs the taliban was beating up american citizens and others like my constituent and his wifed holders? >> i'm aware of those claims.

are you aware of the afghan allies outside the gates? >> yes i am. >> we had the sniper who had the bomber in the sites before the committee before that was run up the chain of command he was denied the ability to take that cipher out. that is a breakdown. and i believe the security control of kabul contributed to this violence in a my timeta is; i'm going to put in writing to the chairman. but at the end of the day this is a shameful situation all the way around i appreciate your willingness to work with these families and meet and talk with them now. but we must have accountability, we must with that i yield back. >> chair recognizes mr. keating. >> than y families here. the goldstar family members my uncle being killed in action. thank you for being here. condolences on your loss

gratitude, eternal gratitude for the sacrificed encourage of those who loved. when i was first elected i visited our troops right away in iraq. and i came upon a marinek■)ynd i asked in conversation when his was. he said well sir i am here to serve those decisions those questions are asking are yours those ar p what we have this morning and affect is a little bit of the replay of that conversation. we are asking too general so i deeply respect a thank them for their service to comment on political decisions thrust on them. much of wha w

turned around we should be out there maybe they should be up here asked the questions but nevertheless it's where we are.e of this hearing. and that is the fact the last section is the taliban takeover. there is a sequence that is there that i want to correct. not one decision led to the taliban takeover. many decisions we had here clearly would not have r taking correct?is that >> i think as i mentioned alreadyes of strategic decision that set the conditions in those decisions for over the course of 20 years and then a series of deon end of the the impact was very specific. it's a cumulative effect of decg

assuming the afghan state in the fight. >> w frankly at the end of this the decision that surrounded the doha agreement in thaé i think one of the critical things is excluding the afghans comment on that at all?couou >> the doha agreement was made between the united states and agreement.n is a bilateral the intent you get a better answer out of ambassador or secretary of state pompeo. the intent■x was for that to

occur. the taliban in order to set the framework and cease-fire. did not reinforce each other their contradictory■] amplifiedy president trump's periodic statements and the confidence in security crew so many critical points. in the wholele process. but for different administrations to republicans to democrats two decades.

in the final occurrences that occurred and that is the with the should be viewed. we can dissect them. we can go back and classify after this and learn more in detail. but we are going to learn this. but any family member would what so no other no other american family have to go through with they went i cannot sit here on march 19 what's going on in ukraine now. no equipment article five responsibility and putin has put in('is sights nato countries as the next target after he gets through with afghanistan. foit rather. and so i ask everyone here on this site on the political side when we have a supplemental ready to give to the ukraine

government we must act on it now because of failure to do that willpa future the lives of other brave american men and women who are they are under treaty our worldd defend democracy of europe theot same democracy my uncle died for.■w so i hope and implore everyone here, put the bill on the floor for a vote. the present is important the future is important saving the lives of courageous young americans had men and women is important. i yield back for. >> i agreed that assesen recogn. >> thank you, mr. chairman. general, in april 2021 president biden announced his decision to drop troops down to zero. what was your assessment of tmen afghanistan at that time?

>> my opinion is then in my op to zero you are going to see a rapid collapse of the afghan government and the afghan military. it will be difficult to sustain themselves they were not prepared to send loan. >> did you advise against any part of the withdrawal as announced? and if so whatce did you have and to whom did you raise them? >> ultimate participate in meetings at the very highest level express the opinion i've just stated heard. i do know it's going to's specific discussions had the opportunity to express my opinion at length and i did so. >> in september 2021 you testified before the house armed services committee going 2500 was the other sort of nail in the coffin. could you hold this belief in april 2021? did you provide this assessment toithe else in the administration?

>> my assessments are typically provided to the secretary ofap defense. he forwards them on as he wishes and had the opportunity to be in higher level meetings have been express my opinions in those meetings generally speaking my assessments clipped to the secretary he is the ant that carries them over to the interagencyet process. >> a jerk military leaders on the ground in afghanistan concee withdrawal? if so, what were their concerns? >> sured four-star commander it mirrored mine in articulated to you for those completely shared by scott miller. in fact many of my positions were developed from his initial analysis because he was the commander on the ground. >> it was your assessment of the strength and movements of the taliban at the time? >> the taliban -- from after doha the taliban benefited from the fact we were strike and wite

particularly after we began some of the programmed drawdowns are part of the doha agreement. become larger, bolder and more aggressive. the key point is they drew back considerable for one 100%, 99%t. most of their tax were probably low level commanders who did not the word. afghan forcesnc ferocity it is my judgment the taliban can grow bet a period o. >> you believe the state department is on the same page as u.s. military in april 2021? i think the intent of the department of state maintain a diplomatic platform in afghanistan. even after we withdrew our militaryth forces. is action. in that i didn't think they'd be

around to beer the diversions of opinions. it lasted until august whom he e actually beg t >> the retrograde and that lead evacuation operation. >> i felt they were moving at a slower pace compared to us. we felt the immediacy of the problem pretty felt the for a variety of reasons not moving quickly. he felt strongly enough so that in mid july i took my concerns for to the secretary of defense and outlined and i felt it evere number of potential consular cor officers we could used to process pieces to it they might in my not different lily pads across the region if he had to s for plans variety of things concern me particularly the requir■6ement for collaboration with the embassy or state

department partners as the situation on the ground began to get worse and to acceler >> thank you, mr. chairman i thank you mr. termini yelledbac. >> attentively yields. the chair recognizesment■r mr. davidson. >> thank you chairman. i think you generals for your presence here today. hopemie as many lessons learned as we can from this largely preventable daste in afghanistan. so far this administration the biden administration has presided over the evacuationhin. general mckenzie you highlighted the state department we need a noncombatant evacuationth operation. there is a civil military interactio

verse responsibility become the militaries? >> the ambassador and countries the ultimate representative of the government of the united states for the execution. that is a policy. thats aaylowed. we support them. it is our responsibility the authority on when we come out and who comes out a long time ago when i served in the regiment never have the experience of executing one ofan those. it seems inconceivable to me let's get the military out and count on some path after words for some of the civilians to get out. we were going to get the militaryt out knowing there still american

citizens behind? >> it was my opinion decision ws the fatal flaw that created what happened in august. the alternative was of crs began to draw down in mid april to begin to bring our agency. >> even in august when the decision was unwinding and joe biden have foolishly picked a date certain is that of a condition certain on the ground no matterga what we are getting out on august 31. yo going to leave american citizensci behind but s that date approach was it really still the state department the here.no, we are going to stay were going to get civilians out another weight we got to go. >> foreign affairs decision here in we need to provide some accountability on the other problems t s execution rules of engagement.

working with the department of defense on rules of engagement. >> at my level combatant commander level i had no input from the department of state, rules of engagemeni rules of ene chairman and standard and existed solely within the department of defense. or pressure on the rules of engagementd are anywhere else e central theater. >> how to break down? how did it break down between the time of the rules of engagement apparen no need to change right must be working well. how did it break down sgt tyler vargas and just cannot get a commander to make a decision? frankly seems like the sniper should've been trusted with a decision. maybe a call to platoon leader, company commander but in battalion commander he could not get someone to make a decision paid what was broken?

>> that is a tactical question at a very low level parenting out of the exact details of that but i can say this the first principle of any rule of engagement is if you see or file threats if it is intent or in action you always have. >> over the years the big problem was you have the junior enlisted guy accountable for a lot.at the officers and civilian accountable from us nothing. now i'll admit every now and then a general got fired they put a different one in. but they did not go to jail. they did not lose they just left afghanistan. that is not how the junior enlisted guys were treated. do you think they felt empowered to make those decisions? we employ the rules of engagement three times with lethal effect of the conditions exactly as we are discussing. >> it sounds like you're blaming the guys in the ground from a not make a decision i really don't think that is what happened. personally, i was not there but i do think that crosses over and we get our divisions here in congress on that.

whyy look at the civilnublic-pof people here in this body are supposed to make congress is supposed to declare our wars under our constitution. they don't generally get around to doing that. theyre work with national commad authority to set missions and for a long time in afghanistan we had something along the lines of as much as it takes, as long as it takes. wait a previous witness to come in any written op-ed's and going all the back to 2004 overseeing operations in■ afghanistan. general milley is an acceptable mission statement for anyone wearing a uniform? >> no of course not. there should be■6 state in which of the ways and means to achieve that we should understand the purpose of what you're doing the constraints and restraints and understand inn the in in 2011 -- 2012 became a

negotiated settlement between the afghan government and theth. >> at the time the question there i application to that is to say when we decide that by think we should expect a better mission statement. we could serve everyone from the combatant commanders all the way down to the sgt tyler vargas andrews on the ground by providing clearly defined applies across the board whether talking afghanistan or ukraine or anywhere else. i wish it longer to talk with additional submissions to beyr■f happy to collaborate in any way for. >> our missions that you know this well from being a ranger you.s. military was to prevent n attack with the nine states of america from a territory of afghanistan. that mission was accomplished for 20th consecutive years.

you accomplished your every airman, soldier, marine accomplish their mission the country was defended for two decades. >> a gentleman yields a chair recogniz■ es vie veteran. i appreciate you holding the and you know i want to add my condolences to the goldstar families my time in vietnam i can appreciate the sacrifice those families and those soldiers made dung war. so, i also appreciate general mackenzie forl both of you being here willing to talk to us and find some answers to help these goldstar family so i really do appreciate that. i guess i want to go to the

point of also mentioning one of the 13 service members that were killed during that evacuation came for my district that was corporal sanchez. i express my condolences to that family as well. in fact i attended the funeral■t it is always unfortunate when we lose service members. but in that same vein bit to the fact we left about $7 billion woy equipment and weapons that was intended for the afghan military was abundantly car prior to shutting down the airbase the administration knew was destabilizing demoralized. was e until the afghan would fall. leaving these weapons in the

hands of the taliban. last of these weapons start a pop up and other complex and this was left a warchest of we of the pakistani -based military group designated by the units as is fdo foreign terrorist■2 organizations. so general milley, did the biden administration have any advanced knowledge u.s. weapons and behit be used by the afghan military?e taliban? when was this decision made to notify the afghan military about the new possessions of these >> those weapons as you mentioned or part of the military sales at seven billions over 20 years. how much of those weapons were

country they were spread out all over the place. there is no specific indicator that i can recall going to go te child been proven to the afghan military have those weapons. those were out there these are weapons, night vision devices et cetera. there is nothing specific to say this unit or that unit is going to hand off their weapons to the taliban or any o t stuff. but he think an important point here is the united states military did not lea that equipment was going to the afghan security force. we gave vietnam, the war you fought able we gave equipment to the south vietnamese army and the north vietnamese overran south vietnam, the americans did not get that equipment to the north vietnamese army that's a south vietnames army doing that. i want to make sure

decision on that equipment that is afghan owned equipment at that point in time. it is completely impractical itn the summer of 21 it was not feasible. we had 2500 special forces. the afghan military#á and the estimate seven-point to billion dollars worth of u.s. manufactured equipment. not u.s. owned equipment ended up in taliban hands. and i do believe there's probably some reporting out that that indicate some of that equipment has been sold on the black market et i have zeroed out some of that is in the hands of the forest objectives toward the united states.■p >> i thank you and my time is expired. so i yield back. >> thank you mr. chair thank you

for the witnesses are coming in. i have got to tell you, listen to this hearing the more infuriated i get. and i know goldstar family sitting here has to feel the same way. i know every veteran watching today has to feel the same way it's not about us. it is about them. and i think what upsets them most are some of these the statementsfrom the presidens evacuation. including an entry, with the president gave on national television during the withdrawal on august saying the generals neveron advised me too leave 250 the only airbase in t russia, i brought in a platform

counterterrorism. is that a statement the generals neverin advised him to leave a stay behind force to keep a lid on half the world's >> i will tell you what my thoughts were at the time. what my assessment was super quick y both testified repeatedy you advised the national commane authority we should leave the stay bind force nato that is correct.t. >> did president trump leave the stay behind force despite his stated desire to get everyone out because the taliban did not meet the conditions? >> with the administration change hand there are 2500 soldiers. did not advise biden you advised him to stay. is correct for. >> and an accurate statement. let's go down the list here. let's go back to july of 2021.

president biden there is a goina taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely. does that comport with your knowledge of the time? i fact just a few weeks later you said it would be surrounded. >> my assessment at the time is if we went to zero in u.s. military forces of the high likelihood the collapse of government of afghanistan. in and f with taliban taking over would collapse. i personally thought it was going to be the fall. assessments vary widely progress baor talking within months thats correct. carter's notes are comes in to see people being liftedff roof of an embassy and embassy of the united states from afghanistan.ci ■bnot at all comparable wit saigon. this picture proves that not to be the case fair enough.

joe bided july 8, 2021 americans under we are going to try to get all done before august 31 if you aren america there are american citizens left we are going to stay to get them all out was that your understanding of the operational planning of the time t stay beyond august 31 are you planning to get out by august 31? >> a plan to get out by perhaps the most egregious we believe 100 -- 200 americans remain in afghanistan was some intention to leave you both testified today that it was impossible to know the number. question is very difficult to know the number for. >> very difficult i don't think the numbers were accurate. >> yet the state of art revise that number since julie 1000 americans left behind. in julyy of 2021 ballroom is

closing. we are withdrawingre our four-sr commander general milley. gandhi is visiting president biden practically begging us to at least leave our contractors and some little bit of air support. general mckenzie you testified you wereo concerned and july of 2021 you put up recommendations including lily pads to get our allies out.putto process faster put measures in place to get our american citizens out there to get our allies outare of what american military should it was just protecting all americans but you are so concerned and july 2021 you put those recommendations for that is wha. >> in fact the diplomats on the ground sent a descent cable 23 dipl road disaster will ensue was that shared with either of you? this is a formal channel going

to the secretary of sta himself. he set shared with you as the chairman of the joint chiefs was that shared with you as a command cluster. >> have never seen it for. >> i didn't see the tim like to see that dissent for. >> the american people like to seef. that. here's my question. you know where the secretary of state august 13? the date before kabul felt? you know where the secretary of state was despite all of your concerns the state department wasn't planning fast enough, we were not getting our people out. gorge of the "washington post" he was in the hamptons. he was in the hamptons on vacation. secretary of state blinken, i cannot imagineow feel. here's the bottom line mr. chairman thank you for your indulgence. i will close with this. the state department to use a military term had its head up its rear. it was not planning it in fact thought just have an the

good taliban terrorist will take care of the bed taliban tears that is happens. because of that we did not get are people out but we do not get our citizens that we do have the force of posture we did not have facing. we failed in their loved ones are dead because of it. i apologize to you. to my goldstar families. your government failed you. gentlemen, and i know you both know this and taking responsibility and accountability. a lot of taken responsibility. no one has bn accountable and they deserve better. your government failed you. i'll give it opportunity my time remaining mr. chairman if there istanything you all would like to state publicly on the record for. >> and have time to respond in respondingtime is expired. >> a gtl they have a

right to respond. quick selected take up on that offer. i have talked to these families for. >> i thank you for i have committed to them and i will do so again publicly to all of you i will work with them to get you the answers. to make sure accountability, transparency is established i'm going to do that. that's what a soldier does i'm not going to turnthese familiesr goldstar families. the other goldstar members of this room to work with jane for years there's many others. they know who i am and i will work with them forever. >> they deserve accountability mr. chairman thank you general >> agree one 100% the chart recognizes mr. kaine. correct thank you, mr. chairman and i want to thank our witnesses for their service to■d our country and recognize the goldstar families for joining us today.y in general

mckenzie you have mentioned today with some frequency about the impact and lack of coordination regarding the withdrawal of u.s. troops. and it's impact on u.s. contracts wit a logistics. what impacted that have on the afghan military? out of contractors andtr advisers had profound effect on the afghan military's ability to operate for general millie has already talked about when we came off was her turn but we lost our ability to see down the combat formations back in the summer of go from 2520 you're bringing all your people to make sure the afghan logistics sys let me give an example very briefly. before we went below 2500 mortar

rounds you drop it there would be a contractor that you tag it, have visibility as went down the afghan to get to where it was going to a great one to pull out that capability you drop the mortar rounds off on the ramp you have no idea where those things go. no idea at all. they could be going directly to the bizarre predictive regards it.taliban just don't see that capability is gone. more pernicious lead perhaps is the one asymmetric advantage that they had. we wanted to keep our contractors and their songs we could but they had to come out per we tried desrately a copperschemes to help them. we looked at long-distance tele- video maintenance which has been tried by airlines in the uniteds and illiterate population but we knew it's difficult for me too overestimate the negative synergistic effect of drawing down capabilities how the afghan military. >> thatiíestimate an advance lit

on a surprise brickwork said the u.s. ever come up with a plan to properly make up for the loss of these key capabilities? works we tried what i measures. we had over the horizon office. you have to be therewz. have to be with the partners. the degree to which you are not with your partner doesn't mean you're not fighting for them you're not doingn that. we'r complex logistics systems. ensuring corruption is not overwhelming. you pull that all off and you lose that visibility and you well. i think that is a significant factor in the collapse of the afghanel military and 2021. >> was any long-term planning for the u.s. will be able to continue to support longtime allies in the afghan military at

all? >> we did. you work under the conditions were given topl operate. there's not going to be anybody on the ground. ideally in a perfect world six or 50 u.s. forces guarding the embassy a handful of people in the embassyp■c that might be abe to do a limited limited form of security operation. nothing at the ministerial level insert nothing at the corehere.h really hard to see a way forward. >> president biden ever informed the u.s. military had yet figured out how to provide logistics support for the afghan military? >> is a question i cannot answer i do not know. >> their plans presented is frank just pointed out he was waiting on the contracto coming down. the potential impacts and that mitigation and remote cetera.

i think everybody recognizes general consensus nothing is going to replace the contractors on the ground. it was about 20000 or so that comes down to about 10 maybe into 21 i maybe eight or nine but that still a significant contractor capability therez$w'd the first or second week of july. that's when it goes to the contractors are not going to say lester's american military them. u.s. persons the contracting piece is a really significant factor. in my view. >> given the amount of time than withdrawal in retrospect are there any actions you wish you would have taken that may have ?

>> i i think for me the biggest thing is to the withdrawal of the u.s. military with the state department. i made advisor not a commander sort of thing. we said it over and over and over again. there's probably o t. that is my biggest regrets. i go through all these meetings on that whole issue of the state department coming out with the military in july really. >> a judge of his time has >> thank you go back my time. >> i apologize mr. mccormick from georgia. correct thank you mr. chair. congratulations to both generals for your retirement. hopefully you are enjoying that somewhat and congratulations to

sgt tyler vargas andrews for your retirement and hope you enjoyed as well for thank you listening intently to your testimonies today, general milley we were together at last time we talked about some things thatappen to you create the collapse the predictability about it. i thought generalst mckenzie talked about knowing this was going to be a total collapse of government pretty early on you can see how the withdrawal was wrappingea work rapidly against us. talked about we sustained ththe mission. very clearly stated a second ago was to make sure forces were not being trained andtan to harme . it was successful for 20 years but i agree per is theremerican casualties is a relatively peaceful place. they were paying the price or violence but they were not training bad guys.after spending

$2,000,000,000,000.2 years, 2004 to 62 lives, 20700 plus casualties plus the years we families we lost during the withdrawal now how many billions of dollars were left behind for them during the withdrawal how many billions gentlemen? seven-point to billion left behind for the enemies to use and how many training bases over there now? training combatants against united states how many bases approximately? >> that i do not know it would be an >> the unclassified brief is about 27. seven-point to billion dollars worth of military gear some of it brando.o. twenty-seven basis to train enemy combatants. we failed our mission. we already paid the price that is what irks me as my friends that are no longer able to come help my friends who have lost life and limbs and time away from their family the money t te invested just to give it back

we're not doing the mission we set out to do it we didn't fail miserably in my opini withdrawal. the example we had vargas andrews said during his testimony testified about theio kabul airport bombing and form the committee his team was terrt who aligned exactly descriptions given by intel is believed to be the advocate bomber. denied initial permission to engage the suspect he elevated the issue to his battalion commander lieutenant colonel brad. according to heat when asked of them permission to kill the suspect lieutenant colonel said i don't know. he is now a colonel. i do not understand where we have gone wrong we don't have a missiontateme tolonel in sgt wih

very capable people to make decisions that would save lives and limbs and then they get promoted for it. i do not only in our mission but our withdrawal and a mission statement for that very day can we speak to that please? if we do not havccountability then why are we here? if we did not learn our lessons from what we did wrong, why are we here and if we are not answering to the people who lost lives limbs, where we here? >> i can speak to the rules of engagement piece. general mckenzie spoke to it. the standdat you are familiar wd cory mills is familiar with, former colonel et ceteraar it's positive id you do not anyone. every single soldier, sailor, airman, marine, ship's captain or fighter pilot has the right perceive

if it is your understanding in that moment in time whether it is afghanistan or anywhere else by the way perceive those conditions you are fully empowered by law to use lethal force if necessary. >> having said that i can't speak and i don't actually know the specifics. >> you don't know but here's the funny thing is neither did the lieutenant colonel i don't know i wouldt say and i'll finh my piece of. >> i know the rules of engagement i do not know the specific incident. >> i'm telling it withna the testimony was in here with the problem is an art litigious asceti a and sailors and marines get in trouble if make the wrong decision when they ask their commanding officer they expect a clear answer or not i don't know that cost people's l you for. >> my guess is congressman walt's when he wasve there my guess is perhaps sgt mills or others that are on this

committee engage the enemy with lethal force and were not asking permission. i do not know the that particular case but i'm ofe rules of engagement are clear they are trained i would have to personally interact with sgt vargas which i have not donew yd for the company commander six director to find out what did break down. privacy something broke down. if sgt vargas had a positive id on a known enemy target that enemy hostile intent the rules of engagement allowed it. >> oxygen was time has thank you for being here and thank you for being here andnd your testimony. general mckenzie, before question on the rop we have had several conversations and i was still unsure as to what the ultimate authority.z0or that an. one has to wonder though if he had taken the shot in myd■s

experience my 25 years deployments on four continents is absolutely crucial for it if he had taken the shot in today't would've happened to our young sergeant? sgt? but general, my question to you on august 26 at a press briefing i'm trying to sort through the dates are intent was. you said you had a common purpose with the taliban in the evacuation. that was on the 26th. you have testified here today you were also telling people what we had to get out by the31. or we were going to be fighting the taliban. can you walk me through those five daysater y thought we would be fighting the taliban from a common purpose on the 26

to full-scale combat on the 31st.our intense between those days? >> me previously talked about the question posed between 16 take lethal shots and nothing happened to the individuals that took the shots. let's be very c■plear when we tk about this three people applied with success and lead lethal effect. we had agreed with the taliban were going to be gon by august. we negotiated that a very high level that was on military decision. it wasng to be out of afghanistan. it was clear by an intelligence report if we remained beyond the 31st, not only would be fighting isis kate will be fighting the child and as well. that was very clear in the intelligence reporting when i talked the taliban we

wanted leave those with the orders we had were to get out. the common purpose was■x leavinf afghanistan for the noncombatant evacuation and operation we were leaving. we shared a common it was designed to let us get out. we certainly did not outsource or security of taliban. i am confident we would have negotiated these limitedving agreements with the taliban and for some the external security they provide. >> is going to ask the two of y? most refrigerant is still hot. i want to bring people's attention to what we hall. the agreement for bringing peace

to afghanistan which wheat the islamic emirate of afghanistan which is not recognized by the unit s state is known as the taliban and the unit united states prevents a form of aim of this a i have a copy and follow your testimony close as you have done it. i use the term but he testified before this committee several weeks ago. i think the entire was naïve. his poorly negotiated along with general miller and others are ion by that agreement. poorly negotiated, and i think the two of you with general miller and others, ■dtion by th agreement. i have heard the words from the other side of the aisle, highly partisan hearing,i witell you, i agree with several of my colleagues that said we are

still paying the price for that go to zero we see the red sea in its current conditions. i will tell you, and i think, i think whate engaged in general milley was not so much defending our nation because i believe the military is to go and breaks things when our national interest requires it. 20 years there, we should have said, we are leaving. if you do it again we will come again, we will break things in the interest of the united states again and my last pntou mentioned the sanctuary because that was our fatal mistake in vietnam, border in cambodia and proved fatal error afghanistan. sanctuary -- cross border

sanctuary. qatar is now playing a part both in afghanistan getting our out of afghanistan and in gaza. was qatar part of your discussions before this? did it pla part? >> it was principally is where we went to negotiate with the taliban. they did not have a significant effect beyond that. i will say as we left they flew people back into afghanistan, qatar does a number of things ross the region. they walk a very tight thinly define line and they were certainly active in that in end of afghan engagement. >> we are grateful for 86 years love. for the gold-star families we

are here for you, oversight in your name to get to the bottom of this disastrous outcome after two decades in afghanistan and for me it's a source ofat disappointment because i do think the nation is less safe the way we exited because of the precedent and the signal it lndries around the world and i think it was a mistake by the president to exit in his method also as it relates to our ability to support our allies in that region. this follow along the lines of chairman. you said that you -- you briefed president trump i june of 2020

and there had been a dod and state comprehensive exit so military exit, state department exit, our strategic afghanexit y american citizens exit, is that true that that took place in june of 2020? >> the plan i've reached accommodated the number of people that were at the embassy, accommodated the number of citizens that we knew were in afghanistan and projected number of afghan at risk people. it was not a plan that was coordinated with the department of state. >> right. but it did reflect the capacity to bring tho elements out. so that got me considering. that was dod's perspective. omplish those four goals. then subsequent to that, between june 2020 and the inauguration of president biden did state and dod work to fine-tune a joint

approach to goals of the june 2020 brief? >> no, we -- nothing substantive was done. they maintained any old pn we continued to refine our plan going forward to account for the reduced numbers. >> and, of course, general milleyust testified a few minutes ago, that's conversations with secretary esper and coming down to the christmas and then january, number on the military side. so that implies that upon being sworn into office that president biden and advisers took the decision to get out completely. when was the first time general milley that the president took the decision that w!;reetely fra planning point of view, not the date that you agreed to but planning point of view? >> well, announced on the 14th. if memory serves me right i think i was informed maybe on

the 11th, somet just prior. >> upon that announcement would you say the department of state defense and state began efforts of the jundent trump or was there no effort to get both departments, eminent role on existing the nation -- >> coordinated effort.■rj= coordinated interagency effort. we did what's called a ttx orro. there was tons of coordination. and that is leaving an embassypl if a war zone while simultaneously withdrawing military forces.

we strongly thought the embassy should come out and it was not t atenable. >> let's switch subjects to the subject of equipment of the afghan national forces.the trumn june 2020 until spring of 2021 was there a contingency plan to as you saw the situation could deteriorate to also disable the fix ring -- >> i will let general mckenny specifics. >> u.s. equipment. you testified a few minutes afgn government? >> somef it?

>> we didn't disable it. places like airfield where there was equipmen there after we established the perimeter. it'll never be useful to anybody. >> yield back, mr. chairman. i want to announce the whi have agreed to grant 12,000 special immigrant visas for afghan nationals who assisted the united states in the statel department foreign operations funding bill. support by me and the ranking member as well. >> i want soat say thank you because something that we both support and left them behind and not give a visa to get out of there. chair recognizes mr. mills. and thank you for your service getting haitian americans out of haiti. >> well, honor to be able to do

mrthis, help americans out of haiti we did with 255 that we got out of israel and as we did with the americans out of afghanistan, so there's a pattern of abandonment that has administration that i'm going to call attention to immediately. i want to thank gold-star families who consider to be friends and many will be looking charges dropped which never should have been levied againstt lost both of his sons who understandably would be upset when there's still been no ieility, people taking responsibility, oh, it's my fault, it's my fault, the same individuals are continuing to get promoted, the same individuals are continuing to serve. these are people who are allowed to serve after making critical errors that cost live but people of medical

exemption -- i'm going to ask a series of rhetorical questions but needed for basic context of my questions your service. i will ask rhetorical questions which are needed in an effort to face the context of my for the questions. mr. milley, can you tell what your description of your job was as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff? >> codified in law the military advisor to the president. secretary of defense and national security council. and to his or her job, to be the senior military advisor of the joint chiefs of staff, we are the chiefs of the individual services and we represent the joint chiefs and their advice to the president and secretary of defense. if there is dissenting advice, you give that as well. >> you are an advisor.

general mckenzie, your role as commander of centcom is ground force operation command, correct ? >> i am chain >> whatever happens, the buck stops with you. i unrole, general milley has made it clear the direction he advised which was different than what the administration has done. you testified the same. i have an issue with what was said, you look at the secretary of defense who make comments that said there were no provid that could have led to the understanding of what a suicide bomber was going to do. however, you read the intelligence rday today and a classified setting that would speak to the difference of that. even to the extent and the clarity of saying, moving it to this location. planning is commenced. planning is finished. execution is imminent. these are the day-to-

day logs we saw which proved there was credible intelligence that could have been rendered. not to mention the fact there was a state department who i re requested multiple times for blinken to step down. cables that warned what my only real severe issue i have had as of late, general mckenzie , you made multiple commentsand otherwise to the extent that a brave hero in my opinion who sacrificed his limbs for this country, sergeant tyler andrews, to pull you, what he is not recalling is correctly. and you said that, you claimed there was no bolo that would meet description.

where were you on gust >> tampa, florida. >> i can tell you where the sergeant was, at the gate. i o information far more than someone sitting 11,000 miles away. who is watching from isr and potentially brief. his testimony was cooperated with marines and the events that he has made clear actually did take place. we are fortunate enough that the man who endured the most on the ground, and ground truth matters, is sitting right there. would you like to tell him that correctly? that he and his fellow marines are not actually the ones who said there wabolo? that he is incorrect in his assessment putting in question

his integrity, face him and tell him that? >> no, the battlefield is a complex place. there were a lot of threats that date. i honor his service and regret >> have you spoken to him? >> i have not. >> you have not ordered him you had not questioned him even after our committee a year ago. >> he -- >> i am still talking general? respect and to question his integrity and what took place on august 26 that ■dhe obrved, and sacrifices limbs for, you are unwilling to face him and telling him the same thing you told msnbc, that his recollection is incorrect and there was no such thing, that is shameful. i yield back. >> my understanding is have me families, they are willing to meet with sergeant tyler vargas

andrews. and you deserve that, sir. >> to follow up. mckenzie, whe retire ? >> april 1st, 2022. >> general milley ? >> i came out of my duty position on 30th of september and officially retired 1 november. >> at any point between the disastrous withdrawal in afghanistan to today, have either of you spoken with >> i want o -- to but have not. >> he testified before this commteu watch? >> i did. >> i did not. >> did you get a report? >> i did.

>> did you ever feel the need to reach out or ask for a meeting based on his testimony back >> that would be inappropriate, i was in uniform as the chairman, there is an active investigation that was going on. he was a part of that and it would be inappropriate to meet with potentiawitnesseduring an active investigation. >> the centcom investigation has been reopened. that is an active investigation. >> based on the active investigation, will you meet with him today? >> that centcom investigation has been closed. >> you will both look to meet withhe? >> yes, we are in different statuses, no longer in active duty, he was commander and i was a chairman, and you don't want thatfligation. now we are not in uniform. >> with respect to the decision

by president biden to announce september 11th as the deadline for full u.s. military withdrawal, was there tactical or military reason for that date? >> not that i'm aware of. >> not that i know. >> purely political and from the standpoint of, a symbolic date from your understanding? >> i will be candid, it was ina moment in time. it was rapidly changed until the end of august. >> you were never involved in th no. >> general mckenzie, you said that you and you alone are responsible for the military operations . that occurred during the withdrawal. did you set the date for the withdrawal? >> i not.

>> did you make the decision to bring our troop level to zero? >> i did not. >> president biden is the commander-in-chief, did he make those decisions? >> he did. >> do you think he bears no responsibility for the aftermath , that you are the only one who bears responsibility to the military operation? >> i was responsible for tary o commander-in-chief is responsible for the department of state, all the other operations, but i -- >> you report to the commander- in-chief? >> i do. >> is he responsible for the decision see to zero back >> yes >> he bears responsibility? >> that is correct. >> ■ milley, you told the senate and house armed services committees , in september of

2021, that one provision of the doha agreement, the taliban adhere to was the most important one , do not attack us or coalition forces. you sa that did not attack u.s. and coalition forces didn't the taliban carry out at least some attacks against u.s. and coalition bases in 2021 including indirect fire attacks? >> there were but the taliban themselves, they would deny that. you never can be certain if they have total control over their invi there were some attacks and the issue was lethal attacks. that is the fundamental piece. there was also specifics -- >> in other words, it depends on the definition -- >> not at all it says no attack agreement, no attaforces.

we are talking about lethal attacks. also, some specifics, i believe , doing this from memory, about no mass casualty tax. the problem is --did adhere to most of this, they did pick up the pace on attacks on afghanistan security forces. that is signifant. by my memory, looking at somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 atta the peak of attacks occur in 2020 and 2021 on afghan security forces. leading to the summer of 2021. the idea of not at largely adhere to by the taliban. >> the chair recognizes mr. moran. >> thank you, both of you have

called for transparency and understanding regarding the withd i agree. i want to also recognize and thank the goldstar families here today in this room and convey my condolences for their loss. i also want to recognize sergeant vargas-andrews, thank him for his dedicated service to this country and his testimony last year . it was very insightful. i want to come back thank you both for being here today and undertaking this pursuit of truth. that is what we are here to do. you have had a long dayare about done. the american people deserve the truth and the families who lost loved ones deserve it as well.i this question, if you have advice for this committee as we look forward into the future as to howdo we look towards

additional transparency and accountability in this regard? what further witnesses should we better understand what went wrong with the engagement and withdrawal and how can we do better next time? that is my first question, what additional witnesses does this committee need to engage i am are rules in congress. for you to get an accurate tactical picture of what happens, it seems that you would ■hha ask the tactical commanders. general donahue, baisley, sullivan. you are not the committee of oversight in jurisdiction, that is the house oversight committee. i don't know how you do that. if you want an accurate picture, obviously, you have interviewed sergeant vargas-andrews and others , a lot of pele. the second thing is, documents,

the chairman mentioned it upfront, there is a lot cof, th them are classified and many very highly classified. how that would work between the department of defense, cia, department of state, the various committees, but to get a full and comprehensive picture , you will have to get documents and all that that will take a long time. rn all that and i think you know those rules. the specific military witnesses, i think that would have to go --z& ■les 100% that e in the house and senate armed services committee and not this committee. >> general mckenzie, let ask you about your views, after action reviews, after the evacuation, who was involvedçñ,

when did the first one take place and the last ones you participated in? excluding anyyou talk about what were the top frustrations that were communicated during those after action reviews and top two of the consensus positions of what we could have done better and what we should do differently next time? >> they begin pretty quickly after the operation because you want to capture memories while they are strong and before they do other things. we had a series of those at every level, some at the centcom level and some not. a couple of things that i think i would hit on, first of all, the requirement to be better integrated with the department of state. we are only partially responsible for that but that is a key thing. the second thing, not a bad news story, but a story you need to continue to work on, lift requirements to get out of

someplace, how to scope and scale that. those are very important. >> last, general? >> one more thought, one thing you may take a look at, the lead federal agencies with non- combative operations. who has decision authority back ambassador? combat commander? department of secretary of defense right now, the law is ambassador and secretary of state. rol, the decision authority, who is in charge matters. when you make these calls matter . that is something, i believe it is codified in law, not positive. >> quick question about chain of command. when the team on the ground was

looking for authority to take