people like peter singer who really emphasize the common humanity of everyone who's alive on the planet and teach us to or suggest, i think that we should be thinking of climate change. a moral tutor reminding us that the life of someone living in sub-saharan africa or in bangladesh or india is not worth less than our own, just because they are distant from us in fact because we are in many ways the most prosperous country in the world, responsible, the most emissions historically to some degree, we are imposing burdens on directly and we should be thinking about that obligation, that responsibility, and ultimately that guilt in a much more direct and profound way than, i think almost any american does today. the brilliant wayne and thank you so much, andreladies and geu

now welcome to the stage. congressman adam kinzinger with hugo lowell. hi, guys. hey. what a good looking crowd. you guys look. oh. adam. so, hello. so, adam, just way of introduction as one was one of two republicans on the house select committee investigated the capitol attack. thank you. that was a crazy time. and as a result, it has become, i think, of the most famous politicos around and also one of the most vilified by our own party. that's true. you know, thank. is also lieutenant colonel in

the national. so he's a man of many talents. and we were joking today that maybe he could fly, but it was not quite as dramatic to. go save the dramatics for the for the book. there you um, i'd like to start with trump you are one of yes please start with donald trump again one of his most prominent critics but you write in renegade your memoir that you felt responsible for january six in many ways because of your time in congress and how you had been part of the republican party talk a little bit about yeah i mean, look, i i'm careful to say that in terms of, you know, my whole time in congress and it was 12 years like i always tried to push the worst of the party away. i was always kind a centrist. i was always trying to work with democrats. but i look back and i'm like, you know, we the thing that we learned as politicians and

particularly in the gop is we can raise a lot of money on fear. i mean, i got to tell you, like if i send an email out today to you all and ask you for money and i and i gave you some flowery language about the future of this country i'd raise some money but if i told you that you know, this person in politics is about take power and they want to kill you and your family, and i can truly convince you of that. i can. a ton of money. and so what is? we began to harness this power of fear and fundraise in and leaders are supposed to harness that sometimes and then given optimistic vision and the party didn't do that and i the thing i feel responsible for is not speaking enough about that. the few times i did try to harness fear to like raise and i'm like, there was a point which i realized the things gotten out of control. i wish i would have realized it earlier and think the important thing about fixing this and about fixing the problem we're is we all have to take inventory our own. what we've done and how we think

in order to in order to fix that system. it's idea of if you've got a plank in your own quit pointing out the speck and everybody else's. you voted the first impeachment. and i don't know if this weighs you in a different way because. you did vote for the second impeachment and knowing you know now about trump and the republican party, if you could go back and do it again, would you vote for or vote against that first? that's a great question. i mean, would vote the first impeachment? i would vote for if i was presented with it again going back in time, the i struggle with is like i wouldn't have survived lived. i know that i wouldn't have survived that reelection and i wouldn't have been around the january six stuff. i would have actually been watching it at home as a defeated politician. so on the one hand, i look at it and i go, i absolutely should have voted for that first impeachment. i mean, especially when you see what's going on in ukraine right now. and you see, you know, literally we talk the defense of democracy here. they're actually defending

democracy in ukraine. i mean, there are people that don't vote anything each other in a trench right now dying for, a future they will never see because. they believe in democracy and freedom that and so, yes, i wish i'd have voted for it. at the same time, i look, i'm like, well, i'm glad i was around for the januar three six stuff because unfortunately, as you all saw, there were not many people that were willing to take a stand on that issue. and speaking of ukraine, which is now a big problem, big topic in the house, do you see how do you see republicans reluctant, especially in the house, to send more aid to ukraine? for me, it's and it's it is to me, i still cannot how we got to this moment i mean i know of the republicans still in the house and i tell you if could bring you as a fly on the wall and the converse and one on one between me and just about every of them, they would all say yes, we have to support ukraine, but they

don't have the courage. unfortunately, anybody with courage in the gop has been sifted out over the last number of elections. so the people that have that should have courage. i think of mike mccaul for instance from texas like this guy truly supports ukraine he's the chair of the foreign affairs committee and he's not saying jax because he's worried the trumpers are going to get mad. and his primary election you have an opportunity very rarely does a member of the house of representatives have an opportunity to change the world, to literally change the world. this is an exception because of just five republic ends in the house said we're going to vote no on advancing any piece of legislation to the floor of the house of representatives until you put ukraine simply up for an up or down vote, they would change the world, but they don't have the courage to do it. and that's disappointing to me, while. do you think this is something that continues even with trump

gone, do you think this is something that trump has injected into the republican conference? because you write in your book about how you once went into the oval office and shut down or did not on stand the need to the kurds in syria. yeah and that was the tone and tenor set by trump the trump administration republicans embraced that. do you think that this is now something that is now part of the republican conference? yeah. trump is uniquely evil. and like in that, i think he's he has this strange power and it's not okay if you're going to what's i'll say start a cult here okay because it's a cult i'm leading called the gop. but let's say we start a cult here and i declare myself i'm your leader. you guys would all be like, you're not going to lead us. well, guess what? if shot a few people in the front row and then said, i'm your leader, you've got to stop me. i'm like, yes, mr. leader, right. and eventually, because had to

compromise yourself, accept me as the leader out of fear, you eventually to protect yourself, convince yourself inside that i actually am a good leader. and that's what's happened to the party. and when i talk about the quote unquote executions, that's anybody has spoken out. i mean, look at me and liz. there were people far before us that speaking out and getting ostracized and that life blood is basically your political career at that moment. so i think donald trump is uniquely if any of you guys listen to charlie and here on the bulwark, he talks a lot the lizard brain and he's got a really ability to kind of know that base instinct of people that when he goes away and. i hope it's sooner than later, but when he goes, it's going to be tough. somebody to be able to replicate that exactly. now, that strain of extremism will continue in the gop and. this is why i always say to people, even though i vote democrat, i'm going to vote democratic now i, still will

hold the title of republican because. i think you have to in the gop, have people that are willing to fight the soul of a party that represents half the country. you say you're going to vote democratic. do you still consider yourself a republican yeah, only because i refuse to let them win. you know, i haven't really changed myself. i mean, there are some issues that obviously have moderated on over time that with age that comes with the ability to kind of stand back when you're out of politics and kind of reassess how feel about things. but i refuse to let them win. now i look at it and, i'm like, i guess if you if you took the textbook definition said are you still a republican? you guys could argue that because maybe not since i'm voting democratic, but i look at it and say i'm not willing to give up that title because i do think there was a point when when the republican party was much better than it is today, it

stood for a strong national defense, which it doesn't anymore, stood for smaller government and. we got to keep fighting for that because if we push that party aside and nobody can sit there and fight for the of it anymore, i got to tell you, there are going to be times when republicans in charge and we want to make sure there's a good group of normal republic battling for its soul. you also write that will face changed how you saw politics. you were growing up and now i think you call yourself religiously inspired conservative and renegade. can you talk about how your faith has shaped ideology or political ideology and how that might have changed? yeah, it's interesting. so if you would go back to when i was young, younger, involved in kind of paying attention politics for the first time or whatever, i guess i have fallen into this idea of what now is growing into christian nationalism, but this idea that

like, you know, jesus is a tough guy who you know, is fighting for this and we all have to do this stuff in government for him. but my dad ran a homeless shelter growing up. my mom's a public school teacher, so there is that any any intention for a hard edge to me was kind of by them even though they're conservatives as well and i think throughout my time frankly in congress and like i said, even my freshman year in congress i was not an extremist. i was pretty moderate and i was i was put in time magazine as the example of the moderate in the freshman of 2010. but i was although that was the tea party movement. so that was a little skewed. yeah. so a moderate among the tea party, mind you. but thanks for saying that. true, very true. but as as i kind of grew in my own personal and i started to look at and if you'll bear with me for a second, i started to look at the example of jesus in the new testament for instance, i don't think jesus be driving a

truck to the border of. mexico to block immigrants in. i mean, i think jesus actually be making this journey with immigrants. right, because he cared about he cared about hearts. he cared about souls. that doesn't mean you can't be concerned with the border. you can. but if you're going to try to inject jesus into politics, at least know who injecting in and act accordingly. and so i think as my faith matured and i started to come to the position, what i really believe in in terms of that, i came to realize that the that i thought i fighting for on behalf of that was completely wrong and. i think there's been a massive failure from the pulpit of the church to the people. i mean, when you see pastors standing up and talking about donald j. trump as the you know, the incarnate version of jesus christ, i mean, for god's sakes, this is the most dis qualified and, the most corrupt man to ever sit in the oval. and you're trying to say.

that this is jesus's to earth, right. and so i think as i began to open my eyes to that, my faith matured also, my politics matured in that. and it's actually made me speak out much more aggressively against. people that declare to have my faith because think they're completely, utterly wrong and backwards is trump then unfit to be president? oh hundred, percent. i mean, look, even. january six, you know, probably president in history has been some version of a narcissist. i mean, for you to say i'm going to be out of 300 some million people, i'm the guy right. like there's got to be self-confidence there, at least. but i don't get every president at least that i know of, even in that white kind of self focus and like kind of, you know, self-confidence that still put the mission of the country re. yes. in front of donald trump only

thinks about himself. i mean, literally only thinks about himself. i mean, i sat you were talking about the meetings in the oval office. i heard him tell me after the kurds. all right. we don't need to stay in. there is no oil there basically. and me, liz cheney and a few others were part of a conversation to him to stick around. but i saw how quickly if you can turn your mind on a dime on the issue of whether to stay with your allies, the kurds or not, you're a man. no moral center and, not to mention january six, which i'm sure we'll talk. we may talk about it, but nobody knew who i was until that day. speaking of the republican party then, which clearly changed through the trump years, become the cult of trump in many respects, how do you see individual house republicans in that conference? do you think they really believe in trump?

i mean, you know, reporters on the hill, you know, i previously covered the house of representatives we hear these stories about how members in private will be like, i can never support this guy. but, you know, i have my political ambitions that need to come first. i mean, i want a member level. can you talk a little bit about that? yeah. so if you go kind of when trump came on the scene and everybody kind of acquiesced at that point, i'd have told you probably 19, 9% of republican house members can't stand him. but are to play along. okay. as time goes on and it's the same question of you, if you asked me a couple of years, god, how many republicans believe the election was stolen, i would say there may one or two crazy ones that truly do. but for the most part, all these house members know it wasn't. the problem is, is every intervening in election cycle they are elected in believers. so some of the freshmen that come in are the ones that and you know, this next election cycle, some of these people were charged with insurrection on the capitol, are not running for congress and actually could win.

and so as time has gone, you've started to fill that ranks with true believers and the rest of the people. so i use mike mccaul as an are playing the game of gosh if i leave if i speak out there's a huge price for some of these folks that means you go work and lobby in washington because i like fighters and i don't want to be a lobbyist. but if i decided i wanted be, i probably wouldn't be a good lobbyist because i'm not really close with republicans anymore. right. maybe i'd do well with the democrat. so i don't know. and so people start thinking stuff through and they're like, i'm just not going to run again because if i speak out, going to hurt my chances of work after words, which i guess i get it. and and the rest just are paralyzed with fear. listen,. every one of you in here has a moment. like what i faced january six. like what? cassidy faced on january six. everyone. it may not be that extreme, and it may not have been that

public, but there is a moment where have to make a decision to go against the grain. and it's the hardest decision you'll ever. because i think people fear more than they fear death. they fear being kicked out of their tribe because we're a tribal people. that's what we rely on others for safety and and when you're faced with that moment of decision, it's but once you make it, it's the best feeling you'll ever have be liberated. and to actually be able to look in the mirror and know you have what it takes to tell the truth when it's necessary. it's interesting to hear you say that, because you to some degree uniquely are a member that came in with a military background and that members in the house with military service. but do you think that made a difference for you when you decided that enough was enough? it did for me.

and i'll tell you exactly why. so when i ran i got out of iraq in oh nine and basically made the decision to run for congress, then and i remember i said this, i think in my announcement and i said a few times afterwards, but i thought this almost literally every which is okay, if i'm going to run to be on the board of directors for america, that's really what it is. i'm like. i have to be willing if we're going to ask and if job is going to be to and to authorize to die for this country. so we're going to vote for war we're going to vote for military packages. if my job is to at some point say, yes to a military strike, to equipping people and young people are going to die for this country, which sadly, we have to have people willing to do that. how i not be willing to put my very career the line for the

same cause. if i'm going to ask a young person to die for america, i to be willing to give up $174,000 a year job and a title for the same cause. now i thought it might be like a vote i had to take on social security reform or something. i didn't know it would be like actually defending america in that, but that made huge difference because when when that moment of truth came down in terms of speaking out, you know, i've got a buddy mine that was killed in iraq. i wear him on my on my wrist. andrea so. keith and i'm like, if we have to ask young people to die for this country like you, there are a whole bunch of members of congress that are completely unwilling to put their career on the line, but the gladly go salute a casket as comes into dover and they're utterly unqualified to serve in that position. and in my mind. so, yes, i think it made a difference in that. and do you think it holds people back people like michael, the

people like mike johnson, the current speaker who who played a role in to overturn the 2020 election or do you think it's a wider problem than that they are more interested in continuing the political apparatus in d.c. that they they need the donations they the i don't know the nrc, the rcc to support them. they need the republican party to support them. and what missing from people like mccarthy and mike johnson? it's a great question. i mean, look, i don't know how we get here. so i'm just going to toss this out and. we absolutely need campaign finance reform. i mean, george w bush, i remember when he ran in 2000, he had raised like 50 or 80 million. and everybody's, holy --, that's a lot of money, right? it was it was record breaking like they just spent 80 million. each candidate in new hampshire for a primary. i mean, that's that's to give you an example how exponentially this is. and so money is like mother's milk to a politician.

you have to raise money. if you don't, you lose your ability to raise money affects how effective you are in congress. you well know, if you don't raise money for national committee, you're not going to get those plum committee assignments, even though it's officially not based on that. it is. and so so that's a huge problem. but can i just can i just press you on that? you talk a little bit about that because i don't think people outside the hill really understand how this basically what you need to raise amount to get, you know, certain tier committee jobs if you want to be on the house judiciary, you want to be in the house oversight committee, you to raise a lot of money, maybe for something that's less big deal. maybe like a science committee, you don't need to raise as much, can you? so let's say, okay, so was on the energy and commerce committee, which i would argue was actually the best committee in the and i was also on foreign affairs to be on energy commerce. now i was lucky and got selected as a freshman because we had such a big freshman class. but normally if i on that committee as a freshman, i wanted to be on that committee.

what i would have to do is for national republican congressional committee, i would have to raise a ton of money and then next year, when the time came to select new committee assignments for the new, i would go make case to the selection committee and. part of me making my case even though again, officially isn't this doesn't happen but. part of me making that case is to say i rose i raised $500,000 for the national committee last year and i helped this many candidate. if you walk into that room and you're i didn't give any money to the national committee, there's no way you're getting on that committee. so that's how it works. and then you're on your do goes to the national committee actually increase exponentially from. like for me it was like $300,000 a year i had to raise, which was insane. so that's kind of how it works and that's that's why money matter if you to become speaker of the house, you know, mike johnson was an exception because they were just so like desperate for anybody at that moment.

but if you want to become speaker of the house, you need to show that you have a fundraising machine behind you. now, what's missing in these people is like, you can be amazing at raising money and making the case, but if you don't, a moral red line that you're unwilling to cross. the best example that was given to me is, you know, nancy pelosi, in oh six, zero seven, when they took the majority, she was very, you know, run on they had run on out of iraq. okay. but then it came to the issue of funding war in iraq. and pelosi came under a lot of pressure to cut off funds to iraq. and she didn't do it. she didn't do it because she said, we can't just cut off funds to in the war this way to her credit, because she had a moral red line that even though she didn't believe in continuing to stay in iraq, she knew what was right or wrong about decision with mccarthy. i mean honestly donald trump would not be a name we were mentioning now had he not gone to mar a lago three weeks later, after january six, and that's a

20 minute story i could tell at some point. the party itself was sitting around trying to figure out what was next until that moment that kevin mccarthy, the decision that he would not be able to defeat trump in the next two years and still become speaker so he embraced them. you also about mccarthy actually just on that point in the book about how has kind of a bullying tendency he shoulda checked you in the in the house. yeah you guys remember the story about him like punching somebody in back recently like a month or two ago it was when my book came out and it was funny because he did this and then he's like it was against tennessee congressman and and mccarthy is like, i'd never done that. i've never done anything like that. literally, my book came out almost that day where i talk about he did the same thing to i'm in the back of the floor and he walks by with his little security entourage and. i get ome shoulder checked. i'm like kind of hanging over the rail in the back and his

shoulder checks me and my first reaction was like because i had been friends with him in the past, so i kind of revere added to how funny know my friend and i'm like, wait, kevin, i haven't talked to other in a year. we hate each other now. i'm like, he did that real and then he did it like couple weeks later and the point isn't that like i because i mean, if you want to fight, fine. i'll fight you. but but it's like it's just that you, when you when you baring your morals so deeply, it comes out right? you've had to change who you are. and, you know what's wrong. it'll come out and you're projected onto other people. and he could barely contain his anger around me and around liz because. he frankly knew we were right. and and i think he just felt like less a man, particularly around liz, when he when he saw him. so you guys gave him to california.

i know. i, i had to throw it out there. illinois gives, you know, barack obama a blink and you guys give us kevin mccarthy and reagan. so are you. let's talk about january six. i think i covered the january six investigation for 18 months. um, everyone i spoken to about that day they each a very specific or maybe a set of memories that are seared into their brains on both sides of the aisle actually. and whether it's a member or staff a reporter so what is it for you that you recall from january that stood out the whole day is crystal clear which is amazing because i have a bad memory. but there was one moment when i so i wasn't on the floor so i started the proceedings on the floor. i kind of i knew i had predicted there was to be violence that day. i actually predicted it on a

phone call with mccarthy and he disregarded but i decided like something's feeling weird so i go back to office and i was just going to watch the proceedings on our internal c-span. and then when the time came to either speaker vote, i'd go on the floor, which is what most members of congress do. by the time i got back to my office, i walk in and if we're sitting, if my desk is here and i'm sitting like, you know, behind desk, and if you guys would come in, you'd be like kind of looking at me like this. behind me is a window that overlooks the west front of, the capitol, which is where all that combat was happening. and the crystal clear point i pick up phone, i call my wife. i'd ask her to stay at home that day i told my staff, stay at home. i actually brought my gun to work that day, which i had never done. i usually am armed just for security where i go, but never to the capitol because we had so many police officers there, i did arm myself that day and i remember walking and i stood up and i turned around and i opened the window because i wanted see and kind of hear everything. and it's like, boom, boom, pop,

bang. and it was the second the d.c. metro showed up. and d.c. metro, by the way, save the from getting truly sacked because they up in force and basically stopped the breach there at the west front where you saw that and it allowed capitol police to retreat inside and kind of try to keep the situation tame inside. and it was but it was d.c. metro with all their nonlethal and i have to tell you like i've been i've been in combat, you know, i'm not a not i'm not a ground soldier. so i've done it from the sky. you know, we've attacked on the base. i've felt what i felt that day. all i can describe and you know, you know, i'm a religious person. so this isn't like i'm not one of these people that just feels evil. i don't this is like the only time it ever happened. i just felt darkness that i cannot describe just a evil darkness. at that moment when i opened that window and looked out there. and the interesting thing is people like markwayne mullen told me that night that he said

every police officer he talked to told him the same thing which was there was like a sense of evil there now how quickly they forget. but i never forgot that the other thing that stood out to me was going home at. 3 a.m. and as an air national guardsman, a national guardsman myself, i saw my first national guard troops, and that actually brought tears to my eyes because it was both a sense of pride, seeing them there, but also a sense of like why are why does the national guard have to be here? we had 20,000 national guard troops in the capitol for three weeks or four weeks, like more we had in afghanistan at the time, because we had to protect the seat of government who sat what. did you do when the rioters broke through, did you stay in your office because some members went to the safe room, one of the house office buildings and there was a separate drama in that. and in safe room. i mean, did you stay with your staff? you barricade yourself in? it was by myself in my office. so probably many of you have been to like a d.c. usually like kind of for maybe big rooms.

there's a member office and all the staff. i was the only one there and i basically myself in the office, i say the doors are very thick and you lock them. they're tough to get in. so i shut and locked all the doors. and i basically sat there for three or 4 hours. the crazy about it, i have a recording. it would take too long for me to pull out. i'll maybe try to find it later of when the alarm system actually went off. i thought actually take a video of it, which there's so much i wish i had a video day or written, but you're just didn't survival mode. but we weren't being communicated to well because the capitol police were overwhelmed and at that point they went into survival mode because members are about to get overrun. and so there was not a lot of communication so there was about a 30 minute time period from the point that they gave us the shelter in place order. and i'm watching what's happening from my office that i actually thought i would end up having to defend myself because

what i didn't tell you is there had been plenty of against me on twitter up to that point because i was one of the ones speaking out about the election and they were very clear that they were going to come kill me specifically. and i'm like, well, they're going to find me once saw that they had breached the capitol. there is nothing stopping a determined mob from coming to my about 30 minutes. i thought i may have i had a small gun. i only had like eight shots in it, but i'm like, i'll take seven people with me if i have, you know, thankfully i didn't have to in 21 after january six. you were initially hesitant to serve on the january committee. it was a bit of your arm was actually you didn't have much choice kind of speak about that a little bit. i did not want be on the committee. ladies and gentlemen, i don't know if you guys know this. he covered us for the whole time. so you know, every time i'd walk out, it's a group of people like him trying to get piercing questions and get me to give up some and secrets and i didn't

want to do it because i what the price was going to be. if you guys saw cassidy earlier, i didn't see your spirit talk, but i'm sure she talked about that as well. knowing this is not you do. and then it's kind of like it goes away in a week, in fact. so here's the funny story. so the reason were the only you know, you know, we went through all these of investigations that never happened. and then finally, nancy pelosi, out of his aspirations, was like, fine, going to force this through and we're going to do it ourselves. and so liz and i were the only two that voted to create that committee, which is a huge disappointment because so many people were like, i just can't vote for it, bro, because i'm an election coming up like we do have an election coming up. but anyway, so i start hearing rumors that nancy pelosi is going to announce a republican and i'm like, dear jesus, god, buddha, everybody, every god out there, not me.

please. okay. and and then it was announced, liz. and i'm like, oh, good, this thing was planned from the beginning. it was never me. i feel great right now. i'm going go live my life. well then my carthy, you know, pulls his members of the committee, and i all of a sudden, oh, you know, i start hearing rumors that that well, nancy pelosi could appoint a republican. i was technically only republican in a republican seat on that committee because liz occupied a democratic seat and jamie raskin schiff, swalwell, who was a townee for california. now, they all started talking to me. i'm like, hey, if nancy pelosi asks you to serve, will you do it? and i just said, look, i go, i don't want it. and i'm going to be very clear. i want to do it. but i'm like, i just i very rarely can talk about this and not get choked up. mike i have a kid on the way at the time and i'm like, he's to

read his name in, the history books, you know because kinzinger is not very a not a common name he's going to read his name and he's going to be proud or he's going to be ashamed and that's like this is that moment. i can make that choice. and i knew that i couldn't look at myself in the mirror if i did anything else. and so i said, yeah, begrudgingly, i'll do it. and the funny part that is so that was saturday, i guess i wake up sunday morning and my phone's blown up and it's already been announced. pelosi on meet the press that i'm going to be on and then she calls and she's like oh, i had to announce it. she's like, i tried to call you this morning, but you didn't pick up sunday at 6 a.m. and i'm like, i'm sorry i didn't pick up sunday at 6 a.m., but it was announced. then i'm i'll tell. what if i went back in time? nothing i would do differently because. it was the right thing.

to that point. the you led the primetime hearing, you led with l.a. was about trump's inaction. yeah, i actually you not remember us, but i saw you in the elevator up because i came through cannon tunnel from the house of representatives building and i took the same elevator up with you and jamie to the house. i do remember that. and we're like, don't say anything i was doing little a little no punches, but you are really fired up and like it wasn't until after that thought about it and i thought kind of this must be personal. you to some degree, yeah, very personal. oh, look, the number of threats like came through to me, like, i'm fine, you know, death threats. you. we're going to come to your house and kill you. adam. whatever, okay? if you're threatening, you're not going to do it. it's the people that don't threaten that you worry about,

but they involved kid and my wife. i mean, to give you an example, i had a kid my kid was six months at the time. and i remember there a call that came in that was saying that i they hope he wanders into traffic, gets killed, you know, how dare we name him christian? that's his name because he's the son of the devil, you my a significant part of my mom my side of the family and not my immediate family. they've been great, but a significant of them disowned me with a certified letter, which i guess you can still do. and. and so all of that all of that built up to be very personal right, because here i am paying this to do the right thing. and i have colleagues and not even to mention the former president, but i have colleagues that are very willing to let me take these threats because don't have the courage to speak out when there were death threats against when there were death threats against some of the members recently with this

speaker's vote. and they were all out. i'm like none of those people spoke out with liz and i got them, but that's fine, whatever. but that committee hearing, if you think about mike, my wife, i've taken the oath to the constitution and what six times in the military so each time i got promoted, i took the oath to the constitution six times as a congressman. each time i got reelected, i took that oath seriously. and that's why elaine and i led that last, that last hearing, because we were both the military on that committee and we were making the point that the former president, who is notoriously terrible at resisting peer pressure, i, i talked about the kurds issue literally talks to him last like changes his mind. okay but for 187 minutes for the first time in his life he proactively resisted pressure to act to defend the capitol.

people were telling him all the time mr. president put out a tweet, mr. president. you need to do this. and he proactively, first time ever resisted pressure to act why could you say he indecisive you could, but the truth is he wanted to see if it would work. he wanted to see he had tried different issue to switch election year down to this last play and he saw his occupying in the capitol threatening to hang the vice president and he made a decision let's just see where this goes because it 187 minutes, it became obvious that law enforcement was going to win the day. and that's when he begrudgingly put out his first statement only after that tide of battle was shifted. i become friends with a lot of the i think of people like michael fanone, who, by the way, are hard core republican, at least used to be he's been by a lot of his friends in law enforcement because he's spoken out and they even friends in law

enforcement to some extent tell him that they don't believe what happened on january sixth, that he was there. yeah, this becomes personal because of the toll it's taken on a lot of people in the country. we talk a lot about the success of the january six committee and obviously it played huge role. and i think showing the public exactly what went on in the post-election period through january six. but the committee struggled with a number of including trying to get republican of congress to cooperate. you guys issued subpoenas to a bunch of members, including jim jordan, for instance, the the chair of the house judiciary committee. but did you have an inkling in december and november 2020 when you're still in congress before january six that happened that guys were taking steps to overturn the election was there anything that stood out to you? that's a great question. and i like i guess i would have i would say yes, but never with

i wouldn't. yes. with the assumption that it was going to get to it got so in my mind one of the most egregious things was night of the election when trump said this is being stolen. now i'll make this part brief. i know a lot about democracies around the world because that was kind of my passion in congress. and i know the only thing that you need for self-governance to work is a basic contract people that you can vote vote counts whoever wins wins and can vote again some other time later that's it you don't have to agree on anything else. fact politics is because we don't agree on anything else but you have to agree on that. if you don't agree on that basic contract, you cannot govern yourself. and that's what that's what donald was destroying was half of the country's faith in that basic contract and democracy, whether it's a year or two years or ten years, it will not survive that. and so when i saw these moves to kind of destroy people's faith in the system. yes i saw that kind of leader

theoretically an attempt to overthrow the government or attempted what i did see coming. i knew there would violence on the sixth. i did not know that they were going to come in specifically stop the count and attempt a coup and that's what it was. it was an attempted coup on our country so i think january six took me by some surprise, not as much as it took. most people surprise, but it was a very moment. yeah. and to that night on that note, very. how do you see someone like mark meadows? and that was very interesting to us covering the committee because. he was originally a republican member of congress. then he became trump's chief chief of staff. and then he did this thing. he cooperated just enough with the committee not to held in contempt. you got some records. you didn't get his testimony. and then with the justice and the criminal investigation, he only testified in a very limited way pursuant to a court from the chief judge in the district court.

there. how did you see mark meadows, after stopped cooperating, you were very happy with the fact that he'd given you stuff, but he's basically both the one that got away and also, you know, the mvp of the committee in a way. so how he kind of cooperated a little initially he said he had you know, we subpoenaed, i think, his personal phone and he said he has nothing related to his his lawyer actually a firm he has nothing related to january 6th on his personal phone. well, evidently he did because he has a conversation with his lawyer, whitaker, who was a very respected attorney and attorneys. oh, you've just basically perjured yourself. we have to turn over this stuff to the committee. they turned over these texts that came in on his personal phone but not his official phone, because that's we had to deal with all the executive privilege issues on those texts that basically opened an entire investigation lane for us. we started see who was calling, who was talking these different

little that we could then build a massive case. so that's what makes him the mvp. the reason he's the one that got away is because is so much more not only on his other phone. and and we don't know if he could have deleted stuff on his personal phone had to take his word that they turn that over everything. but also his testimony. i mean, he he knew every time donald trump went to the bathroom. he was his chief of staff. he knew every conversation would have happened in that office. i mean, look, how much how much cassity to us, you know, from her perspect of now imagine the perspective of the chief of staff himself and so if he's cooperating with doj and i would guess he is you probably know, better than me, i mean to an extent to an extent his his i think trump's goose is cooked because he gave us so much information. so i see him as both like it's like a frustration. and also in in a way, because he gave us some stuff.

and just very quickly, life after the committee, why didn't you decide to run again? you could have run again. you would probably have lost. why didn't it? so it's interesting. it's like i served 12 years in congress and to be with you. the last election i ran for, i had actually gone through a couple of weeks. i was considering not running anyway. arthur brooks, who's a if you guys have ever heard of him with, aei, he talks a lot now about happiness stuff. really good guy. he you could do anything well for ten years and after that you're out of energy. generally, you like high performers. and so i know if none this would have happened. would i have run again? i don't know. but the temptation to run again simply so that i didn't look like i was giving up. but then i thought it and i'm like, i am going to get beat if i run again, let's be clear. the democrats also drew me out of my district in illinois. let's be clear about that redistricting. usually the republicans advantage of it twice. i written out of my district by the in illinbe