>>. >> no matter where you're from or where you stand on the issues, c-span is america's network. unfiltered, unbiased, word for word. if it happens here or here or here or anywhere that matters . america is watching on c-span, powered by cable. >> now on other interview afterwards, craddock senator roth al warnock talks about his faith and journey in politics

he's interviewed by james clyburn . afterwards is a weekly interview program with relevant guest host interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work . >> thank you very much for being here with me today and allowing me to talk to you about your great book that i guess was released yesterday. and i'm particularly interested in this book, more so because of its impactful way out of no way. now, having been born and raised in the projects as you , i don't know if you were in the projects but i from memphis and you also. so we know a little bit mabout what that means. tell me a little bit why you picked this way totell about your book . >> othank you so much and it's

wonderful to be here with you. most of us are what they call pk, preachers kids. the title of my memoir a way out of no way is a phrase that's deep in theculture of the black church .and let me his tend to say when we say the black church as you know we've never meant anything raciallyexclusive about that . where talking about anti-slavers, the church that was literally born fighting for freedom and bearing witness to our common humanity . you're not a black church, you're not in the churches y that she me and you for long without hearing somebody in n the midst of the service, maybe the preacher, maybe somebody in the choir saying god makes away out of no way. and it is a phrase born of suffering. and oppression. and of keeping the faith even

when it seems like the odds are overwhelming. of hoping against hope, putting one foot in front of the other and moving forward. walking through the darkness knowing the light shines in the darkness . so the memoir reflects on the culture that has shaped me but it's my story as an expression of a larger american story. >> host: that reminds me of a bit from my memoir published seven years ago and i called it blessed experiences. it comes from my dad's favorite hymn and as you said, this is my story, this is my song. that reminds me a bit of what i read in your book. you seem to be saying in this book that you feel that you

were preordained for the ministry or the pastorate. you've made some choices about where to go to school upon that preordination, share that ahwith us. >> it was evident to me early on i was headed into ministry and although my dad bless his memory was a pastor and my mom later went into ministry there was no pressure from them. i've come from a large family and one of 12 childrenin my family, number 11 . first college graduates. but early on, i was captivated by this idea of going in the ministry as i point out in the book away out of no way and in some ways it started out in terms of my preaching, the hfirst time i stood in the bolded to breach it was on a pyouth

sunday i grew up in a small church they allow the young people really to discover their voice and one sunday night, i have six older brothers but the one just above me, delivering the message dthat sunday on youth sunday so i sat there listening tohim . i said shucks, i can do that. [laughter] >> host: and maybe a little better. >> guest: the next month when it was time for youth sunday to roll around i made it clear i wanted to deliverndthe sermon . on a sunday, a couple of months shy of my 12th birthday, was the first time i stood on all pulpit trying to express my faith. and as i went along my parents were great examples for me but there was another one that was formative for me and that is the voice of martin luther king jr. who absolutely captured my imagination. i was born the year after

doctor king's death. but i was part of a generation of young people whose parents were fighting for his birthday to become a holiday. i'm sure you will remember that struggle efand even before it became a holiday, my parents and many other parents across our city and across the country pull their kids out of school on the birthday and i remember sitting at the may street ymca all day with doctor king's speeches, watching eyes on the prize and his voice and the way in which is faith came alive in practical ways so that people have the courage to stand up for themselves, it captured my imagination. i went to the morehouse college largely because that was the school doctor king attended. >> it's interesting because doctor king had profound impact upon me as well. and i was a 19-year-old

college student and when i first met doctor king, i met him and john lewis the same weekend in 1960. on the campus of morehouse college. and of course, as happens in movements like that, there's always some generational approaches that may not be the same. and there was a little disagreement that had cropped up along our students and of course as the coc and they had doctor king meet with us on that campus. he came to meet with us. agreed that we would get together:00 in the evening for about an hour. i and john lewis were founding members. so that meeting, that 12:00 meeting for one hour, we walked out of there4 am the

next morning . not according my song to paul transformation. so i know the tremendous impact for you to grow up and go to the same school. and then end up spending it. >> i wanted to attend the school martin luther king attended . and i have no idea i would later ndbecome the pastor of the church and stand in the pulpit where he served alongside his dad from 1960 to 1968 while i was a student at morehouse college talk about k in the book also, we had an event on campus that i was president of the students who work in the chapel, the chapel assistance they were called at the martin luther king international chapel on the campus of morehouse college. we invited some of the public

officials in the community to come to thisevent . the only one who showed up was your friend john lewis. john lewis was probably in his first or second term in congress and that's when i'm in. honestly i don't remember what he said that night. he gave a speech a long time ago but it was, the ministry of his presence alone, the fact that he took the time to come spend time with us students. he spoke and afterwards i remember him standing around and spending time with us h. i had no idea later on i would become his pastor, the pastor of entities or discharge any history, the courage of john lewis amelia boynton, one of the women. we don't lift up those names nearly enough but amelia was on that same bridge l. i later met her.

josea williams crossed that bridge with john lewis. it is the faith of people like that who didn't have any reason tobelieve they could win . we look back at the civil rights movement i think and too often speak about these victories. the passage of the civil rights movement, the voting rights law. fair housing as if these were inevitable victories. they were quite improbable. >> host: not just improbable but one of the things you pointed out so that people understand, it didn't happen in all one fell swoop. when i think about the work trying to get the civil rights act of 1964 past and as you said it passed in 1964 but when it passed it didn't

have voting it, it didn't have housing in and really, the hard dealings with discrimination only applied to the private sector. didn't apply to the public sector. when you look back on that, you've got civil rights act in 64 voting rights act in 65 . fair housing in 68. and it did not apply till 72. so over an eight year period, people look back as if it all happened in one fell swoop. when i look at your book and think about your journey, that incremental, these incremental steps. >> it's like you didn't all allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. >> that's exactly right. >> you kept moving with the recognition that the american story is such that there are moments when the democracy expands the wrong our view of

what it means to be one nation under god, out of many one and there are moments when it contracts. but you know, maybe it's the preacher in the remember that even contractions are necessary for new birth so you keep moving and you keep bending that are through fits and starts. and i'm a product of the work that you all did. i had starter. >> i did not know that. >> then ray lujan are the two members of what we call the headstart caucus of the united states. >> and i'm glad you pointed that out because when you go back and a lot of things did not happen back then but when lyndon johnson came with his so-called great t society program. i don't have to tell you you

are a native of georgia, me of south carolina. we know the history of those states. the fact is there are a lot of people who talk about even today that lyndon johnson great society, that programs they'll. nothing could be further from the truth. the great society did not fail and you mentioned t headstart. that was a great society and it's still going on today. you're a united states senator. the new president of south carolina state, he was the poster child on his 50th anniversary but now he's president. he did not fail. >> for folks who may not know we should point out headstart is a program that ensures that poor children have access to learning and literacy in those critical years when you're three and four years old when the brain is literally growing and neurons are firing and we

don't engage parts of the brain during that time, the science says that atrophies. part of how you change the world as we invest in young people particularly the very very young. and so along with my parents it exposed me to reading and a love for learning. i like to say all the time when giving speeches where there are only sophisticated folks were there, degrees and credentials positions. i to share it with you as smart as you are you'll never be as as you were when you were four years old. that's where the real magic happens, place to invest on and start alone and then in high school, i have a high school principal who invited me to become part of fa program called upward bound which is part of a federal

trio of programs. poor kid who grew up in public housing on college campus and if you can. calling themselves there. my saturdays, when it came time to go out, we didn't have the money. i often say i went to moorehouse on a full faith scholarship but the other part of that program is low interest loans. i sit today in the senate as the senator who knows the difference that's good federal public policy can make n. >> you and i have talked about the similarities in our backgrounds, what we call

hbcu, historical black colleges and universities but what i did not know is that trio programwas number one , special students concerned program. rob the. i ran t?that program in south carolina. absolutely. i didn't know you were a repository of that program. but that big trio caucus, a lot of my colleagues were in one of the trio programs. that's amazing. but it's a testimony to find you all, you know the benefit of these kinds of efforts and that's why you been so engaged in programs like what can we do about student loan debt? what we can do? for instance i'm particularly interested in your work on the senate side because i'm over on the house side on

putting the ceiling on calls for insulin. and what that means and what the federal government ought to be doing about that. tell us a little bit about your priorities in the senate . >> i've been focused on the work or take a around healthcare even before i decided i would run foroffice . my track has been a ministry and my decision to run for the senate and served in the senate is an extension of that work so i can putting for healthcare for years and right now i have a bill on the senate side which would the cost of insulin to $35 out-of-pocket expenses per person. >> so are i would remind our viewership today you're working on getting that passed in the senate you've already passed it in the house . i'm just saying. fairpoint. and i'm doing everything i

can to make sure we do our part . and let's try to get this done. i in georgia one in 12people in georgia is a diabetic . one in 12. and in our country one in four dollars spent on our healthcare system is on people with diabetes. so part of the power i think of this focus on insulin which by the way is a 100 year old drug is price gouging. >> host: absolutely. >> guest: if you think about one in four dollars in our healthcare system being spent on a person with diabetes and the cascading impact of diabetes when it's not managed for the things that can happen. dialysis, kidney failure. needing to go on dialysis. amputations. a doctor shared with me the number one cause of blindness is diabetes.

so it makes sense for the people where trying to help but it makes ersense for our overall health ecosystem. >> one reason i wanted to get there before dealing with your ministry. i came along thinking i was going to follow my father into ministry and we talked about it a lot.i was going to go to south carolina state and i was going down to the seminary. on state campus, dennis high school on the campus. i had all these things going on in my head but i always heard you had to be called to the ministry. i kept listening. didn't hear the call. so i went up there telling my dad and my dad said it's better to see a sermon than to hear one.

that defines the black church, what it means. so i want you to talk about your efforts because i want you to share what it's like to stand in the pulpit looking at the congregation and you know that as you said one in 12 sitting out there have diabetes. my late wife lost her 28 year battle with diabetes. a full shot of insulin and i said look at what that cost was. $800 a month for a drug that's been around for years. it was only $35 a month. that defines your ministry. >> that's the work i tried to do for a long time long

before i entered the senate. and i do look at it through the lens of a pastor because i've been with families addressing the kind of struggle you describe and you know personally andintimately . it's the reason i've been fighting since 2014 to get medicaid.o expand course south carolina is another state refusing to expand medicaid and its politicians pplaying a game on the battles of 10 years ago. so i've gotten arrested in an active civil disobedience againinformed by that movement . in the state capital down in georgia a. fighting from medicaid expansion . i came to the united states capital. >> i remember that. >> you and i talked that day, later that day i got arrested. there they go, trying to fight for medicaid expansion

cutting resources from the children's health care program and i was here with doctor william barber and others . then barbara told me it was my turn to be arrested. >> the first time i got arrested was with my wife. >> on a date. >> absolutely. but whatever it was sometimes you've got to have work to advance the idea.. i remember what the issue was. we were all playing for children. >> now my office is down the hall from the rotunda where i got arrested. and the capital police who were very kind and polite who were doing their job and had me in central booking that day . nowadays they help me get to my office. and you know, that's what i

mean when i said all wayout of no way . the journey, the work that we're trying to do, the progress, it comes in fits and starts. the democracy expands and contracts. america is a great nation because they're always been people who want to lay it all on the line for the country. my dad was like that. i talk about him a lot. and it's because he had such an amazing impact on the. he was a preacher but not with the credentials thati've been able to gain . my dad born in 1917 was an, had an older father. and he served during the world war ii era for about a year. and he used to talk about how he was on a bus and was asked

to give up his seat. while wearing his army uniform to a white teenager. he obliged but he never forgot. >> .. >> of the generation that loved america until america learned how to love him back. and it is his patriotism, his dream of a country that would embrace his children that inspires me to this, to this moment. my mother's how much younger than my dad, grew up in waycross, georgia. and as i say sometimes, the 82-year-old hands that used to pick somebody else's cotton and tobacco picked her youngest son to be a united states senator.

that is the great and wonderfullyy complicated story, family history of america. america, like all families, has a complicated history. >> host: absolutely. absolutely. really, youal and i -- you just said something about your dad. my father was 19 years older than my mother. >> guest: and mine was 21. [laughter] >> host: and my dad the had the same kind of demeanor about him. he was a lot of -- i saw him absolve. so that led me to where i am today. i think about that a lot, and i'm sure you do as well. one of the things i wanted to mention here, you mentioned your father in uniform when that that incident occurred. >> guest: yes. >> host: a gentleman -- if not

in the military, being discharged in georgia, coming home to south carolina in uniform and was -- off a bus. and his eyes punched out. he died a blind man. but because ofnt that incident, harry truman, president of unitedit states, saw that, heard about it. it's what caused him to write that executive order that integrated the armed services. i'm serious. hea -- the armed services were never integrated by the congress. it was the president signingen -- signing an executive order that integrated the armed services. these kinds of incidents, georgia, south carolina, we've got a whole to lot more many -- we don't know about to this day. other thing we've got in common, john lewis with. he is my man. >> guest: yeah, yeah.

>> host: and you were his pastor. tell me how -- >> guest: it was a real honor to serve john lewis. as i said, i met him when i was a college student and later when i became the pastor of ebeneezer church, i became his pastor. and some of my earliest memories areng serving not only him, but his wife, who was quite -- by the time i came to -- who was quite ill when i came to the church. so she was a strong and in.com national fitter in her own -- spirit in her own way. andw later, you know, from time to time, would spend some time with him. and, you know, as i was preparing to preside over his funeral, which happened while id was running for the senate -- >> host: oh, i remember, i was sitting there there watching you. >> guest: yeah. i remember asking, i asked myself if as i was thinking about john lewis, what was he

thinking when he was crossing that edmund pettis bridge with nothing but a backpack on, trench coat? i don't know, but here's what i doo know, i know he was not thinking that at my death there would be three american presidents at his funeral. on both sides of aisle, because we all respected john lewis. he was not thinking that that one day he would be the recipient of a presidential medal of freedom. i think he was just trying to stay alive that day so he could fight the next day. >> host: absolutely. >> guest: and yet by some stroke of destiny mingled with courage and human determination, he built the bridge that became a bridge to the t future. he built the arc a little bit closer to justice. and so when i think about him in

relationship to these difficult times that we're going through and the forces of division that are emerging and speak with a kind of full-throated, unembarrassed audacity, we can't afford to give up. who am i to give up having known john lewis? >> host: right. >> guest: he didn't have any reason to keep fighting, but he kept fighting the good fight, told us to stay in some good trouble,th and that's the work i try to do even now as a legislator.. i'm in the congress, i'm in the senate, but it is the spirit of the movement and of faith that is always center, justice and compassion and mercy and beloved community that guides my work. >> host: i'm glad you mentioned lillian, john's wife lillian. john and i often talked about our wives, both profession ally

brainers. lillian and emily -- professional librarians. and you and i were part of launching their foundation several weeks ago. and i think it's just sort of fitting and proper for everybody to really remember. you know, john lewis was a little bit different from me anyway, you may have internalized a lot of what he did. we practiced nonviolence. john internalized nonviolence. i don't know if i could ever keepr up with john -- the. [laughter] but watching him and having to lobby himim for a vote, becoming his whip, and the whip's job is to get to 218 if you're on the house side. you go to john, you kind of knew from the content of the legislation whether or not to even talk to john about that. i think therert were certain things about him, he was really

as a close to a pacifist as anybody i've ever met. and so when it came to war and peace, john was always on side of peace. i don't think he ever voted for one defense bill the whole time i was serving him, because there was always something will that he thought that would lead to peace. so it must have been a great experience to be the his pastor. >> guest: it was the. >> host: but let me ask you a little bit about a going forward. you and i have talked about the past, andn i often quote joe santa january know who said if we fail to learn the lessons of the past, we're bound to repeat them. do you think we've learned those past lessons sufficient enough to overcome current divisions that we see in the country? >> guest: well, i certainly hope so. but it's -- we have to remain

vigilant, and we have to, i think, anchor ourselves in the story of folks who have always a fought the good fight, and i think we have to be willing to stretch ourselves to create unlikely alliances in order to do good work. you know, one of the things that we got done in this congress was the passage of the bipartisan infrastructureis bill. i mention that because that a may seem a little odd, that that i'd bring that up. but for me, infrastructure is tabout more than just bricks and mortar. >> host: absolutely. >> guest: it's more than roads and bridges. it's that the, to be sure. it's more than broadband. it's really about the spirit of the country. it is the about the recognition some things and there are some spaces that we have to share that's our showered house, house -- shared house, the house we live in.

and if you think about how broken the infrastructure of our country has been and for how long, and the wealthiest country on planet? i think our broken infrastructure iss a reflection of the brokenness in our pollices. there's a' breakdown, a lack of attention toto the cover covenat that we have with one another, for our schools to be crumbling, for us to not have the high-speed rail and the kinds of things that we ought to be embracing. and so i think -- and i've seen this as a pastor -- that sometimes when a family is struggling and you're having conflict in your family, and all families do, you can't always a solve the problem. you can sit here and argue about this issue or that issue forever, or sometimes best thing you can do while you're working through those issues, rather than working on each other, find something to work on together. to dream, to build. and while you're building and

working and perfecting the space that you share together the, i think that at least provides a context to work through some of these fault lines of division that certain folks are trying to stir the up right now. so when we passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill, a strange thing happened that i never would have predicted. it's called the cruz-warnock amendment. ted cruz, that is. ted cruz and i disagree on many, many things -- [laughter] to be sure. but he and i both are on the commerce committee of the senate, and z -- as it turns out, he had something that he wanted to get done that i also wanted to get done. and the night we passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill, wen had to do it as an amendmen. couldn't do it in committee. and he stood up and made his argument forou why he thought ts should happen, and then i stood up andy made my argument, and i heard myself say words that i never thought i'd hear myself

said, something along the order of i agree -- [laughter] with the senator from texas. >> host: yeah. >> guest: and the chamber burst out in laughter, all of our colleagues, and we passed it overwhelmingly. and twitter began to fire up, and folksnd on my side and i suspect on his side, my staff was showing me what was going on onwe twitter. folks were asking, well, what is this? if what is thiss cruz-warnock amendment? how could you stand with him? it's. very, very simple. i-14, the interstate he wants to see built out many, the, wants to see it named a priority the corridor, that interstate that runs through texas also runs through georgia. >> host: absolutely. >> guest: it connects blue and red communities, chocolate cities and v.a. manila suburb you shoulds. it transcends race, class, all of the things that we think divide us. and if we can get that highway

built out, all kinds of folks can get on the highway to get to where they need to go. >> host: absolutely. and you think about that, i-95, maine to miami. how many statements does it cross? -- states does it cross? bringing all these communities together. and you start talking about the i-95 corridor, it's about what state you're in. >> guest: yeah. in a larger sense, my point is there's a highway that runs through ouran humanity -- >> host: larger than race, it's larger than -- [inaudible] if you mentioned it earlier. e pluribus i unum, out of many, one. >> guest: out of many, one. >> host: how do you to d that? that's how you do it. >> guest: yeah. >> host: it's infrastructure that wedo don't usually think about the, but it's really there. i want you to share with us a little bit, this book, the title, you know, i often think -- one of my favorite

scriptures is hebrew 11:1. evidence of things not seen. now, you and i have operated on a lot of faith these days -- can. [laughter] because some things that we are hoping for, that we, we don't see yet. you're up in the senate, and a lot of us are rely on what happens in the senate. tell me a little bit about your hope for some of the stuff that we still have not seen we've of. >> guest: yeah. well,e we've gotten some things done congress, and i think it's important to point this out. we passed the american rescue plan which helped us to get this virus under control so that we could reopen the economy. wend support municipal

governments, cities and states, so they didn't have to lay off firefighters and police officers. that provided resources so our schools could be reopened safely and be retrofitted in response to the pandemic. we helped farmers, and many that bill we passed the single largest tax cut on middle and working class families in american history. i had hoped we would extend it, the expanded tax child tax credit, but we did pass it. and we passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill. andor now working on the jobs ad competition bill which would help insure that america remains competitive and continues to lead well into the 21st century. and we need all of our talent in order to dot that, so it invests in high-tech hubs and in colleges and universities and research and development. but in spite s of all of that, peopleop are many pain. in pain. >> host: they are. and people are looking and

saying, no, the glass half full requires that we focus sometimes on the things you need to continue filling up the glass. >> guest: yeah. >> host: we've been so preoccupied with that part of the glass that we'll lose the ability, the energy and everything else it requires to continue to fill it up. >> guest: yeah. >> host: and so i'm glad you mentioned those things. you did not mention the omni omnibus -- >> guest: that was huge. >> host: one of the earliest times i've seen that happen. and we're still working, as you mentioned or alluded to it. >> guest: yeah. so what chemos me up at night -- keeps me up at right right now -- night right now, i'm thinking about pressures ordinary families are feeling. they go to the gas pump, they see record prices. but oil and gas companies are experiencing record profit. so we've got to deal with this

price gouging, the way also putin's war is certainly not helping with pressuresar around that. one of the things i'd like to see us do is pass a federal gas tax suspension as we make our way through these difficult times. i'd like to see us cap the cost of prescription drugs, get the bill across the finish line on the senate side to get the cost of insulin capped. and continue to investigation in the future for all of our children. >> host: well, we're just passed down, i don't know when this is going to to be to be seen by the public, but just about two the hours ago the house passed a prettyeg significant piece of legislation that would lower the cost of fuel and food -- >> guest: right. >> host: we're going to send it over to the senate -- [laughter] the cooling bowl -- [laughter] the d place where things,

unfortunately, die -- >> guest: i'm going to be doing everything i can -- >> host: well, i this you just -- i think you just mentioned something the public if -- a lot about flakes. this inflation is worldwide. >> guest: that's right. >> host: it's $5 a gallon, in some places it's over 6 and 8 in some other countries. this is a worldwide inflationary spiral that the entire world is working toer get under control. but theree are some things that we do have control over, and that is whether or not we will allowe the price gouging that's taking place tot' continue. >> guest: right. >> host: to flourish. and so much of this cost that the publicc is suffering through got nothing to do with just administration -- with this administration or any of it, or the congress. >> guest: yep. >> host: it's got a lot to do with whether ory. not everybodyn

the private as well as the public if sector will step up and do what's necessary to bring things under control. and i'm glad you mentioned that. we came to talk about your book, we've gotten away from it. >> guest: that's what all of this is about. my life's work and your life's work. >> host: absolutely. >> guest: and i'm deepenly honored to be able to do it on behalf of the people of georgia. >> host: well, let's talk about a little bit going forward. i think that you are so much what the future of this great country's all about. you are many a spirited campaign for a full term. it means you've bot to -- you're running now for the pull term. and i know a little bit about what that's like, and i don't, won't get into the kind of politics with you, but i think that what we, or is important to

share with people exactly a little bit more about you today. with we know from whence you come. but what's your vision for georgia's future, your vision foris country's future and the world? >> guest: yeah. when you see me, you see someone who knows personally the difference that good federal public policy makes. as i said, i'm annal hum of head start -- alum of head start, upward bound, low interest student loans. i'd like to see -- and i've been pushing to get the president to do the meaningful student debt cancellation. i was on a plane the other day, actuallyk during the holidays, coming back to georgia, and there was a young couple a few rows ahead of me, and they had their young son with hem, looked like he was about a year old or

so. and they waited for me as we were getting off the plane. first, they asked for my autograph which is still a strange thing to me concern. [laughter] you know, i don't think myself in those terms. and then the mother handed me an airline ticket, and she had written a note on it. and she said we're big supporters of yours. we're glad you won, and i only have one ask. she said, could you please do something about student debt. she went on to say in that little note that i kept, and every now and then i look at it, she said that she borrowed $35,000 trying to get through -- getting through college. to make her life were the. -- her life better. borrowed $35,000, she was a college graduate. she had spent, paid back 20,000 of the 35,000, and she still owes 30,000.