my name is eileen. evan, and i'm the community outreach chair for the friends of the reston regional library.

we are we've left some information with. but just briefly, we are in all volunteer nonprofit that raises primarily through book sales to promote and expand literacy and materials in our library and in our community through events like this, we hope that you'll visit our website to find some more information. think about shopping, our sales or maybe volunteering with us or library friends group in your area. every library in fairfax county has a friends group and they all can use your help. well the time is certainly right for a conversation about people who to control information and your emotions for their personal. from heads of state to local school boards, there are people creating complex frameworks built on false information and selling those frameworks to large groups of people under the guise of caring about them as friends of the library and as library we feel strongly about

those who would attempt to control your access to information and your ability to improve your own circumstances. and so should you we libraries and sponsor events like because we believe literacy is the opposite of ignorance literacy, honest discussion elevate where a lack of information oppresses we don't want decreased access to books. we want increased access. we don't want we want exploration and education. the chance to find answers for ourselves. we're so glad that sarah, amanda are here today to help us how to apply a healthy dose of critical thinking to people who claim they've got all the answers for. sarah edmondson is a canadian and voiceover artist who starred in multiple tv series and more than a dozen films. her whistleblower story following her departure from personal and professional

development company company nexium, told in her memoir scarred the true story of how i escaped nexium cult that found my life. the cbc podcast undercover escaping nexium and a critically hbo documentary series on nexium, the vow, co-hosted by her husband and fellow whistleblower anthony nippy, aims her podcast a little bit culty, explores the fads, beliefs and that blur the line between devotion and dysfunction to people. understand heal from avoid abusive situations. besides her work as an actor podcaster, cierra attends conferences and events as a speaker host and cult recovery advocate. feel free to applaud in that little bit right there. amanda is super awesome piece. a writer, author and linguist whose work has been described as compulsive, readable and wildly entertaining. she is the author of two

critically acclaimed nonfiction books, cultish the language of fanaticism and word -- events a feminist guide to taking back the english language. both of them have earned praise from the new york times, the atlantic and more. she is also a creator and co-host of the hit podcast. sounds like a cult. named one of the year's best podcasts, vulture, esquire and gq, cultish was named a best book of 2022 by npr was longlisted for several prizes, including the good reads choice award and get abstract international book award and is currently in development for television. amanda holds degree in linguistics from nyu and, lives in los angeles. you can find her on at amanda underscore montel and last but definitely not least. even though she's not in the nonprofit sector, it is beth and patrick that they will be today. beth ann has maintained a storied place in the publishing for decades.

she comments about books and literary culture as the book maven with more than 200,000 followers on twitter, where she's created popular hashtag friday reads. she regularly contributes to the lost angeles times, the washington post and literary hub and sits on the board of the pen faulkner foundation and the national book critics circle. she is the host of the missing pages podcast, and you can find more about her at bethanne patrick dot. thank you, everybody and i'm going to turn it over to you. thank you. you know, this is the opening that no one will expect, but my husband was active duty in the military for 21 years, so i know. from cults. okay. yes. yes, i do. and it's really interesting. i'm going to start out by having amanda read a little bit from cultish because. as i was just saying, i know

that being a middle spouse is not really part of a cult, but it sort of is. but the fact is, what it does is its language. there's all kinds of jargon to learn in the military, any branch that you're in. and so amanda, if you would start. sure. well, this book is about the language of cults from saint to soulcycle and. i'm just going to read a paragraph. my dad spent his teenage years against his will in a pretty notorious cults, was headquartered in the bay area called synanon. and growing up on his stories really planted seed for what would become my fascination with not only the classic cults like jonestown and the manson's. but the cultish groups that all affiliate with from fitness programs to my high school theater department to to graham,

anybody, to you know, went there to books, to well, that was a freudian slip to cults that really ride the line between construct and destructive, because we all just to commune and belong. so i'm just going to read about a paragraph from the end of part one of cultish the beautiful stomach. truth is that no how cult phobic you yourself our participation in things is what defines us. whether you were born into a family of pentecostals who speak in tongues left home at 18 to join the kundalini yogis, who's got dragged into a soul startup right out of college became an aa regular last year or just 5 seconds ago. click to targeted ad promoting not just a skin care product but the priceless opportunity to become part of a movement group affiliations can have profound even significance make the

scaffolding upon which we build our lives. it doesn't take someone broken or disturbed to crave that structure. we're wired to, and what we often overlook is the material with which that is built. the very that fabricates our reality is language. we have always used language to explain. we already knew wrote english. gary eberle in his 27 book dangerous words. but more importantly, we have also it to reach toward what we did not yet know or understand with words. we breathe reality and being. this book will explore the wide spectrum of cults and their lexicons, starting with the most famously, blatantly dreadful ones and working its way to communities so seemingly innocuous, we might not even notice how cultish are the words we hear use every day can provide clues to help determine which groups are healthy, which are toxic, and which are a little bit of both.

and to what extent we wish to with them within these pages lies an adventure into the curious and curiously familiar language of cultish. so in the words of many a cult leader. come along, follow me. thank perfect. i so wish had thought of writing a book called words so and also culture show me, but amanda is a linguist. really? she's not someone up here with another nonfiction book. she really knows her stuff, which is i important to know because it's a fun book and it's an interesting book and you're going to have a great time reading it and just remember, expert, absolute. so let's start with one of the things you kind of talked about in there, which is the old paradigm that many of us think about when we hear the word is

that 1970s is era after movie kind of thing, right? where there's a vulnerable teenage been abducted and kept from parents and friends and the have to go you know on an epic journey to save their daughter's son. so let's talk about from both of your perspectives, how this is something we need to beyond not because cults aren't often just struck div, but because that version of what a cult is isn't really helping anyone is. so go ahead, sarah. i think that's a thing that's really important piece, because when i joined nexium in 2005, i had that impression which i think many people do, although it's changing now a little with the golden age of cult awareness, we as a man, and i call it with so many documents and podcasts and things, trying to shine light, but it doesn't.

five my vision of what a cult was like white robes and drinking goat's blood and you know, kool-aid or flavor made as the case was and got to talk about the kool-aid. yeah you are. so i think that that image was nowhere close to what i experience in nexium so it never even occurred to me that that would the case. and i think that what really drives i think both of us now and so many of us in this space is showing what it looks like now. what are the red flags now? and there? pervasive and everywhere but but they're the commonalities at the same time. every time i interview different about their survival story, it's like, oh, there's the love bombing and there's the isolation. and then there's the reverence of a leader who's not being held accountable. those things are specific and. all of the groups that are more destructive, some of them do wear white. i don't know who drinks goat's blood, but there's very specific things that these groups do that are destructive that you can see now. and that's very different than.

the what we originally, even a decade ago. yeah. amanda yeah, certainly the reputation of a cult looking like a compound in the woods helmed by a wild eyed was in large part shaped by the media coverage the jonestown massacre that was really the event along with the manson family murders of 1969 that put cults the mainstream map as something we should all know and fear. before then, people knew about cults, but they weren't necessarily a priority for. the average person for law enforcement. and then there was all this really alarmist sensationalist and dhume rising coverage of that jonestown massacre talk about drinking kool-aid and how they all lined up like these brainwashed communicate ins and voluntarily drank this poisonous substance which really wasn't the case at all. and i didn't even know that until i started researching that event for this book. so what followed the jonestown

was an era known as the satanic panic of the eighties when lots of suburban and conservative families were worried their children were going to get kidnaped and mind controlled by satanic cultists which were never sure what they're doing. it sounds like belonging to i'm not trying to make light because i'm sure there are people not necessarily here, but you know who have been in the hands of abuse of abuse course, they never really had a mission that the satanist. yeah, well, i think we both bring a of levity to the discussion. how could unite? if you don't laugh, you'll cry and crying is good to. all emotions, the wide spectrum of emotion are important to recognize. but i think, you know, also the seventies like now was an era of widespread sociopolitical when the population was really losing trust in the mainstream

institution ins that were supposed to provide us with like the government, the mainstream church and the health care system. and so people were looking toward alternative groups to fill those voids, and some of them were destructive, and some of them weren't. but you never hear about those. and we like to otherize people who wind up in unquote cults because we like to tell ourselves that that would never happen to me. but while cults now might not look like a bunch of people on a commune lining to swallow grape flesh bread, it wasn't kool-aid. for the record, that's a fun fact. they very well might look like a bunch of people on reddit forum or at a self-improvement workshop, and none of us are too smart or too cynical to be immune to that. i mean, one of the most humbling things i learned while researching this book was that cultish influence can show up in a toxic romantic relationship. the cult of one. well, and we going to talk about that. and one of the things i want to say, i think this is very

important, because even sarah has a line in scar that says something about drinking the kool-aid. and i don't even think you're referring to nexium, think you're talking about something else. and i thought, whoa, let me take a step back. i remember jonestown. i the flavor aid. but how many of us in professional lives in our social will say, oh, you doing that pure bar drank the kool-aid or you know, we use it all the time. and i think, as one of it was i'm not sure who it was which expert in your book amanda said or someone who'd been through jonestown this is a horrible thing. are we all using this in such a flippant kind of way? and i think sarah, turn back to you for a moment. one of the things that's really painful about disentangling yourself from a toxic cult

situation is that people make so much fun. like you said, we have to or will cry. but i imagine has been something that you've had to you just sort of take a time out with a lot of people on, you know, to say, look, this serious, this was not just a cult, that that sort of thing yeah, i've gone i've been out for five years. i left nexium five years ago. so i've been on a massive thank. yeah. freedom. yes. and i'd say i've gone through different stages in regards to how i feel about being more serious or finding the levity in it. but generally, i feel like people look at the story and they respectfully laugh at it. except, you know, once saturday night live did a skit about keith ranieri, the guy who started nexium. and and i thought it was actually hilarious. so for me at the time, it was great. other were like shocked and, mortified. but that's just where was and i

don't think there's any timeline for anyone's healing from kind of trauma everyone has their own journey in that regard, but i think i mean, even me, i did refer to it as kool-aid until i knew it was flavored and i've had my, you know, in researching other cults with every episode that we do on our podcast, i get more and more information about how these things work and how things are taken of context. but that particular line in particular is important and how throw it around like, oh, you started crossfit don't drink the kool-aid like it's it's basically saying don't buy in all the way. and what's important to know i think what serious about jonestown and the flavor is that it wasn't going yes, i'm just going to drink it. they had guns to their head and literally, literally. and that's what's what i try to share and the template of of indoctrination try to share with scarred is that i had a metaphorical gun to my head. i a it wasn't there was obviously a real gun but i had

the it was blackmail. blackmail the threat release of my blackmail our collateral as they called it. same thing. and that's one of the reasons why i asked to be branded and not want to be branded. but i had that that threat over my head. and i think that it's an extreme case and is got the attention of the the feds and now you know he's in jail for 120 years five years probation year to that. but i think that that's super important to note that all cults use coercion to get their to do things that they would never normally do in any situation that and of course control has now been something that i've studied. i've learned about it. and i and i it i see it in every single survivor story that and it happens in stages. all right. if i had signed up for a personal development program and they said, oh, and i'm 12 years from now, you're going to have the leaders initials seared into your flesh. you know, obviously, i wouldn't have said yes that. so that happens with little lifts, right? just like an any sales like

wouldn't you agree, blah blah, blah, you agree to that. then you go to the next stage, in the next stage and all cults and groups that are destructive like that work in that way. and i'm super passionate about showing that and also laughing at it because it is. it's, it's, it's funny, but it's, you have to have lightness. otherwise it's just too dark for me. does that make sense? does the fine line and i'm going, i'm going to go down and with another for you and then so that i can come around with one for amanda. so bear with me. and one of the things i saw in your pr materials was a comparison unorthodox by deborah feldman. so how many of us have watched unorthodox or read it? oh, my god, it's so good. put it on your tbr people. unorthodox is the story of how deborah feldman left a very i'm to remember if she was a satmar

or has seed or a lubavitch hassid. but anyway, she was in a very hassidic sect of judaism in new york, in brooklyn, and she was really passionate about. now in the book, and this is a little bit fictionalized because she does have her own public life. but in the book, in the movie the character is really into music. and one of the things that is very moving to me about that i'm not saying being an orthodox or hasidic -- means you are in a cult. it does mean cultish language for sure. sure. one of the things that i want to note about unorthodox is this moment of sharing in the television movie when she's able to go the von zee in berlin, peel off the wig that has been with her for so many years since her marriage.

you know, the the scene in unorthodox her head is shaved. and then she puts on her sheetal for the first time is is powerful and it speaks to a lot of the sell in that you're talking about sarah it speaks to the steps you know you're born you're a girl in a hasidic community. i grew up near monsey, new york, where there's very active communities. and so i've seen a lot of this with friends when i was a teen and everything and you think, oh, this is great, my mother and father love me. i'm in this community. and then you become a little older and you have to start doing this and you have to start doing that as a young woman. and so it's all of these steps, as you said, it's never oh, by the way, hello, two year old daughter. someday we're going to, you know, make you shave your head and wear a wig. and you can only have this kind of life and tell them that when they're small and it's the same thing, nexium. and so wanted you to talk about,

you know, what the venn diagram is of a toxic cult that really winds up doing things that cause trauma and, something that we call a religion, a world religion. does that make sense? i think this is what we both to figure out in our podcast respectively. and it's a tough one. i think the venn diagram of where and i wasn't raised hasidic jewish, culturally jewish. in fact, i think we both were which is interesting but that world nothing, right? nothing not familiar to me at all. but what i saw, what i see across the board with all organized religions that appear to be little bit culty, is that there's basically one major problem makes it toxic is that you can't question and it's all based on like god says or allah says or the prophet says or somebody says. and if you question your instant gaslit with but aren't you? you're not going to trust god.

are you going against god or are you going against keith ranieri like? you're going to question keith reiner. it's the same. doesn't matter who it is. it's there's somebody that's in charge, who's accountable to nobody. god is accountable to nobody. and in many of these religions, these older men saying, well, i spoke to god and i'm going to have to marry 12 year old tammy here because. god said, you know, and that's that's like hugely problematic. obviously, it makes me very, very, very that this is actually still in and that way nobody questions what you're talking to god just like you have them on speed dial and you're making these decisions for people's and marriage and children and whether you can even have children. so there's an extreme connection and non questioning to that line and anything any doubt you cannot allow. if you doubt, you're not going to go to the whatever is being

promised the heaven, the safe, you probably know, the next level, level you're going to be saved, the armageddon, you're not going to you're not going to have the the wives paradise, whatever it is that they're being prompt that's being promised. you're not going to get it if you have any doubts, you can't waver. you have to ignore your intuition. and all of those things are consistent from judaism, mormonism, jehovah's witness, all the extreme of anything christianity, catholicism, all the religions in my opinion, have the same problem. when you can't question and you can't, you're just trusting. usually a white man who's talking to god. yeah, i mean, it's really hard. define what a cult is. that's the first question i asked all of experts that i interviewed for this book. what is a cult. and they were like, how much time we got. it's just so subjective. there are certain scholars who've to come up with the checklist like ends justify the means philosophy, us versus them mentality, beliefs, exploitation the trouble is that there are so

many groups that have been or could be called cults. these sort of fringy alternative groups that won't check off every box and that and you'll find mainstream institutions ones from organized religion to silicon valley companies to government bodies that. absolutely do. and yet long as people have been fighting over how to define a cult, people have been fighting for even longer over how to define a religion. it's not that cut and dry. so the venn diagram will look a little different depending on who you talk to and are all these jokes in religious studies like cult plus time equals, religion? cult is a group where the leader he can talk to god. a religion is a group that leader is dead. so it's incredibly subjective, yet as much overlap as there is between cult and religion, there's just as much overlap between cult and culture. like, it's what i was about to say. you even need god to participate in something religiously. well, one of the things you as i mentioned, my military

experience that still i don't know where i'm going to put this, but it will be in something i write someday. when we were at leavenworth, kansas, for one year course that my husband was in, they had a and greet assembly for all of us. it must have been near 1200 people in one room and one of the things that the commander military general says and families every, neighborhood and street you live on is going to have a bible study. and so you should participate that bible study because it's going to be an essential part of your year here. and i thought something not compute. i know for certain that some of the people in this auditory dream do not believe in the bible or have a different kind of worship, only care about the old testament, not the new. so what's going on and i thought this is a very strange cultural thing that's going on and it did have to do whether you got to be

someone who was in the you know for the student in the class one of the jedi knights who was going to go on and be selected for the school. and so the cultural part of this. amanda and that's i was going exactly with. my question for sarah is is it seems it can seem so benign when. it doesn't have when there isn't the proverbial gun to your head or there isn't collateral when it doesn't look like jonestown, when it doesn't look like jonestown. but you know what? i'm sorry. i yeah, but you know, we were supposed to drink that kool-aid. we were supposed to just say, oh, sign me up. i'll be going over to the minister. next door's house and you know it. how how do you know especially because in cultish you discuss how language does create cults

in its own way because language builds our beliefs it creates all of this not even saying this very well. i don't know what you want me to talk about, but i can talk about whatever. what i want you to talk about is the last toxic form form of cults creation through language. sure. you know. yeah it's fascinating because fanaticism itself doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something we're communal. is by nature. oh, sorry. should we? yeah, yeah, yeah, we can. oh, this one. there we go. i just don't know how to get it in. oh, okay. all right. pause for technical difficulties. thank you, brett. so. exactly. fanaticism itself and communal

ism itself doesn't have to be dangerous. we're communal by nature. we're tribalist as human beings. we're happier and get more done when. we're in groups. we crave that. and in fact, the fact that we're isolated now in our culture with the internet and, with the pandemic, in a way can make people more susceptible to cults because there's always going to be someone on the internet who is willing to swoop in and say, you're lonely, you're experiencing pain. i'm coming in with the answers. you know, i'm coming in. ron popeil. yeah. or yeah. you know, i, you know, i'm leader of a group that has this well, they don't refer to them as conspiracy theories, but i have answers. and the closure and the solace that you crave during this ever restless, ever isolated time. and so it's challenging when you have in-group versus language, albeit self that doesn't have to

be, you know, as we on my podcast a get the -- out little it's really when you start to accumulate language that discourages that dissent and something that i talk about in cultish is cult language called the thought terminating. and this is something where you understand what it is. you won't be be able to unhear it and it shows up in a lot of really destructive cults where it's this sort of stock expression that's easily, easily repeated and at shutting down any type of pushback questioning this phrase was coined the early 1960s by a psychologist named robert jay lifton. and you could probably speak to some of the ones that came up in nexium whenever you know would clock a red flag experience some cognitive dissonance know i really want to believe in this group but i like something is amiss and i want to be able to about that one of these zingy expression will be served to you by someone with power that group to shut you down and end the conversation and allow that

person to remain in power in q and on, for example a thought terminating cliche might sound well you need to do your research or dismissing valid concerns about covid by saying don't let yourself be ruled fear. that's a limiting belief. mean limiting belief was set in motion was not and then make that yeah dying to share on one and while you're doing that i'll just say amanda for instance you talk about in cultish in terms of friend whose mother had become born again and going to a very large evangel church and this is not any way a criticism of that church or that woman but that there was special language. you know, you're on my heart. yes. oh, i'm going to be a witness to that. you know, any kind of belonging, feeling has it has accompanying is it's constructed with

language. i mean, who learned pig latin the playground as a child, you're like in the derby. yeah, yeah. i mean, you're instantly with the sense of superiority because you know how to speak this thing. other people don't. and that pig latin doesn't say anything that can't be said in plain english, but special language itself is what constructs that in-group. so if you take that concept and you apply it to a group like, nexium or q and on, that's when it starts to build and, and it's the special buzz. words alone are the beginning. and i have i have to say that it certainly made me feel somebody who like struggled with fitting in growing up and always looking to belong wanting community. i felt very special to be a part of something where i felt like we had it. we had our own language. i was aware of that, but didn't think that was a problem. i was like, this is like our special club language, but the flip side, when i was having an issue or a concern, like amanda said, it would sound like if i said i'm not really comfortable

with or like what's going on with somebody might say, well, it seems like you're having a reaction you might want to go look at that or journal, let her sit with that, you know, and that with that with that and that would easily be like, oh my concern is my problem not you're trying to brand me, you know right so that's that's a really good important thing to look out for in other things in your life that may be a little bit culty whether it's relationship or a boss, necessarily a full fledged cult flipping that around on you in specific only saying you need to sit with that is a phrase that comes in a lot of new age groups and it's a -- of a buddhist teaching that i learned about while researching the book the concept of all blames into one where like you can't control a lot of things in the world. you can only really control your reaction to them. and there's like grain of truth there for sure. and what makes cults compelling is that it's not all --. there has to be a granule or more truth and of wisdom, but

what like differentiates a group might be a little bit more constructive, destructive, and a group that's more like nexium is when, you know you want to explore some nuance irksome and get into details and they shut you down a dogma. so it's like, well. driving all planes into one or just sitting with that, not going to solve systemic issues. or what if i have a mental health concern that can only be treated with another kind psychotherapy, or that requires like more complex attention or medication? it's when dogma in. the form of language, of course, because what other form it take is being shoved down your throat no matter what. your concern is that, you know, i don't know if anyone in the audience or either one of you has anyone else ever seen baroness von sketch? no. it's a canadian comedy show. a sketch show that's really funny. i hope it's all women so. i recommend looking it. but one of the skits that they do is called queer theory group.

and so queer theory group, which is of course all women in the sketch, they're getting themselves bound in the language because someone will ask something and they want to go on to, as you more nuance. but else will say well, one of our founding principles in this group is and you know, who's ever been in a theory class of any kind knows you know talk about your brain being tangled up and so what i want to ask sarah is we know that anything about underrepresented groups can it there can be great discussion often and there can be very cultish discussion. i'm sure amanda can speak to in a moment. but what i want to talk about is how nexium appealed to your need, your desire and a very healthy one to be around strong women who were achieving and this is such a real thing.

someone said on twitter today, how do all the other moms at pickup already know each other? and we all have that feeling like you said when you were a child of being left out. we all want to be in with the cool kids. so here you are you're thinking i have finally found the kind of women that are great for me to be with and then step by step it becomes something that's very dangerous. but you're need to be with those kind people that was very healthy in some ways. yeah, sorry it was there, but no. yeah, i just talked to us about that. sure. i think that is true. and i it is healthy and normal and every that we have on our podcast asked them like what, what if unless they were born into it, what were you joining and what the good thing about it. and i'm not trying to make cults good by any means but i'm trying to show what it looks on the outside.

what's the honey on the outside? the rotten piece of fruit that draws people in. for me, it was all those things, community and, meaning and being surrounded by my tribe, which i'm like super allergic to now, but at the time that really did drive me and i feel like and i don't talk about this too much, although i do a bit in my book, like there are, there were so many good things about that sense of community supporting each other and lifting each other up, which is sidebar. i feel really excited to have amanda because not many other people have a book and podcast and like the smallest cult. yeah. are starting own little tilly cult. it's so funny. you should join diet. you have to learn. speak our language. we have had you literally have to really have had. she's going to be selling hats later. i'll bring them over. it's not a joke because a little bit culty, but yeah i feel like that is actually what helps me have a compassion and empathy to every person. we to and people who came from totally different or cults or

religions is is helping even them to connect to what? what were you going for? it's not that they were broken or i mean, maybe a little naive in that i didn't know what cults actually were. doesn't there's nothing wrong with that. like a missing people. just people. i did who does. and actually, one of the things i really love and big plug for cultish when i read amanda's book, it really i could cry just thinking about it because it really election the bigger spotlight on that he's such a human desire to connect and to belong and have that community it's just it made me feel like could want if everyone could read this i would never have any of this sort of like, oh, you were knocked down while i read about that. it would never. yes. is a blurb. i will write it for you on your next if you do another edition. but it's true like when people take the time to, educate themselves, they're reading cultish or even they say watch the vow. they the journey, they see the vision we thought we were buying into, you know, at read now. oh, sure i'll read now. and this is i a good point

because it's a very vulnerable place and a very vulnerable part of the book and. it does cut to like the tail end. this is not the good part of the good part of the book, but not the good part of next year. right? go into the guestroom and get naked. i at her. my best friend lauren salzman. we stand inside her home. she the maid of honor in my wedding, the godmother of, my two year old son. and she's been my closest confidant for the decade. plus, i've been involved with nexium the person i would go to with my most personal. but our relationship changed. just over a month ago, when i accepted invitation to participate in the secret of women who, as i'm to learn about, been recruited from the inside. we would fight to improve the world our strength, she said, and hold each other accountable to our highest self-actualization. it was the women's empowerment i was looking through a secret society, just like men have in organizations like the masons yet. from the moment i committed, i felt she'd been taking things a little too far naked and he

resistance would be turned around and used my issue. it would prove that i'm entitled or as lauren would say i'm mad dogging maxim's term for being defensive. still, i can't help searching her face. for more explanation why sarah she says you have to get over your body issues but my uncertainty in this moment has nothing to do with my body from all the time i've had in this organization, i know how nexium works. any time you question your coach's instruction, even if you totally disagree with what they're saying, twist your reaction and cause you to doubt your natural response to question your own sanity. later, i'll understand that this was the structure to support the gaslighting method that is trained me away from adhering to my instincts through, my 12 years in nexium. so instead i listen to lauren. it's just me and women, you know, she says, as if as if to make me feel more at ease and closes the door. i stand frozen for a moment after she leaves, aware of my body's last ditch attempt, protect my well-being and dash out that door the hardwood floor creaks beneath my toes as they

shift my balance to remove my jeans, goosebumps radiate across my skin. when i left my top over my head and cradle myself in the cold. what happens next? so that every time you have to read scarred have to read both of these books seriously and thank you for reading that powerful section. sarah and one of the things that you know you have to read next reason i wanted you to end on the cliffhanger is so we could talk podcasts. your podcasts, because that's what they're all about. podcasts definitely leave wanting more and look how long has each of you been doing your podcast and tell us a little bit about so you can sign up some new listeners. oh, sure or gosh, i just want to say really quickly, like you reading that section reminded me that one of the biggest lessons that i learned this book and

that i continue to learn, we do the podcast is like it feels so good to judge people into otherize people and to tell ourselves like i would never end up in a group like that, but actually sort of to unpack packing the ingredients in the recipe of cult influence, talking to psychology, just linguists, sociologists, survivors is it it doesn't only help you more aware so that you can a better critical thinker yourself it helps you become more compassionate and more empathetic because. human beings are just dreamier and more communal and more optimistic than i ever knew. and that's beautiful thing. so i it's actually made me like want get involved with more culty groups just the the live your life levels and i'll transition that to talking about the so yes, please. yes so have this podcast called sounds like a call it and i launched it with a friend who's comedian and it was very casual at first it was like kind of a marketing exercise cultish that

i thought we would do for ten episodes that has like built a bit a cult following of its own, unexpectedly. and yeah, it's called sounds like a cold and it's about the cults that we follow from adults to the royal family, too instagram therapists to, people who are just really obsessed with essential oils. the zeitgeisty cults that pervade society at the moment. every week we tackle different group and we have guests and games and the tone is lighthearted, still analytical. and it all leads up to the ending verdict where we discuss this group sounds like a cult. is it really? and if so, is it a live your a watch your back or a get the -- out level cult and that is an a classification system. it is not scientific taxonomy but describe yeah but it's it's a show that really sort of leaves feeling a little bit attacked because we're all in a

fun way in a delightful way, but because we're all a member of something, something that sounds like a cult and it's really about making sure that you're aware enough of the red flags to avoid the get the -- out levels. i want to move on to you, sarah, so that can tell us about yours before open it up to questions. so actually just before we do this, i was saying to amanda, how would a treat it is to have someone who is like on a similar and have our podcast which. we've never felt any competition with each other because they are obviously they overlap in a way, but they're very different. the tones different. i co-host mine with my my husband maybe if you seen the vow you'll know who that is and. this happened after the vow came out and covid and we were like in our apartment and someone said, you should do podcast. and i really like i wrote a book. it's in the vows. what else do you want to know? and it was covid. so we did it also like as a hobby and we didn't realize. how many people would be wanting

more information and wanting connect and like one is like a healthy community that wasn't called to talk about their, you know, how they got into things how they're getting out and how they're healing. so we focus on survivors. we do have a for a number of experts. just to break the trauma traumatic stories and are general format is trying to figure out how people got in, what was the lure, how they what the red flags were along the way that they missed so we can share those with others and then how they're healing now so it's largely a focus. healing was very cathartic for all of us and very well produced, beautifully produced like you. thank you. were really with it's like it's the irony is not lost on me that joined nexium a personal and professional development program to help people. my mom my dad are in that the wellness field as as therapists and i've always had that desire to work with people and help people overcome limitations. i thought i was doing that. obviously i bet on the wrong horse. so to be able to be on the other side and actually people is very meaningful and the letters that we get with, you know from

around the world saying i just got out of a cult and like i can't afford therapy. your podcast is my therapy. i mean, i totally think people should do therapy to. but this is very meaningful that we can provide that and it feels very purposeful to me and incredible silver linings like being here and meeting people like you both, like how would that ever have happened otherwise? so the podcast is now pretty, our full time career and we're there's content for days because you text of calls. i love that it's your full time career now because talk about making something good and positive out of you know what has happened to you and helping so many other people your you know you're so brave sarah i think we can all on that and with that i want to open up to the audience and. i'm not sure if there is a mike that's to come around. okay, here we go. so here, please.

you tell me. but the name of your podcast. oh, sorry it's called a little bit culty because we're looking at things there a little bit culty is, you know, a little culty and sounds like a cult. and my podcast, missing pages is about publishing, which is pretty much a to oh, totally. you i've done research on jonestown and i know there were some red flags with jones even back to childhood where he would like kill and have funerals for them. were there any like commonalities and red flags. notice not just in the language and dynamics the colts but in the cult leaders themselves, individuals, i mean they well, they have in common with each other is what any way sits man with. a lot of power has in common the culture at large. but i also found they often had a chip on their shoulder, like

they thought that the world owed them something that they'd been shut out of some kind of power when. they were young and something that really makes people vulnerable. cults as well is not what you might think you think like, oh, they're desperate, they're disturbed, they're intellectual deficient, but really what makes someone vulnerable is this combination of incredible optimism and think about people who join mlms or, you know, any group you have to believe that solutions, the world's most urgent problems be found and that you can be a part of that change. and then you need to have the resources and the connections to be able to stick it out and recruit other people. even when the promises in variably don't end up coming to pass. so if you're like really, like not financially stable, you're not going to be to stick out an mlm, etc. and then we give people the power. we have been conditioned to believe they deserve. so when white, middle aged gets up on a pulpit and speaks authority about god and

government and money, we're more likely to trust him when a sort of normatively beautiful, cisgender woman gets up on a pulpit and speaks with about love and, wellness and trauma were more likely to trust her. jim jones was special. jim jones was smart. he was widely read. he would study oratory stylings of populist leaders from martin luther king to, a father, divine mentor of his to hitler. and he would the bets best bets and he would put his own jonesy and twist on them. he was a master of code switching. he could preach socialism and turn around and quote the bible he could connect to young white 22 year olds just out of college with quoting nature and he could to middle aged black women from san francisco's church scene by speaking with the lilt of a baptist. so he had a very machiavellian

style of of speech but generally you don't even to be that talented if you are a middle aged white man with confidence and a chip on your shoulder. i'm going to add to that. similarly, keith henry next. james also like stole from so many different places to make smorgasbord that was later nexium. but what i did notice from studying koresh i think jim jones, keith minnery and a couple other sociopaths. i can't remember their names at the moment, but there is a similarity in because we've in our podcast look at attachment theory and how you know, like daddy issues or mommy issues is another way of saying it. that's totally not the right term. sorry, mom, who's an actual therapist, but a lot of these men didn't have a good relationship with their mothers or an absentee father and then they felt, you know, like many people do, like unloved and or low self-worth. and then they found a special skill. this is across the board. like crash was like really good

at guitar and like found a way to get attention from women in a way that him feel special and then found a way to to like make the women around him feel special that that manipulative ability to figure out what people want then give it to them. and that was the more it sort of fed that power is like a void, right? like that's a void that you can never really fill. and so the people went full bore with it, like keith or jim jones or whoever, just was like a heightened version of that. and also i've noticed just on the flip side, it's not what you asked, but a lot of the women that were attracted to these men had like daddy issues, in other words, not not their fathers are like basically the men that like if you look keith, he's not attractive, right? he's not. he's a schlub. right. so why are these women drawn to him? because he's learned how to give them like imagine what you're going to say. it's because he looks like a dad. you know? i mean, i like when i met him, i thought i felt i had nothing to do with him in that way. but i felt safe with him. and, like, i didn't he's not going to do it. he's not too hot. he's not hot.

right. so he's not and so like, yeah, beware the media girl looking man, the mediocre man who looks at you and like, tell me about that. like, totally. oh, my. this is not to say that everyone with daddy issues is going to become a follower. everyone of mommy issues is going to become a cult leader. but i actually as so i'm friends with a lot of therapists, what does that say about. no, but i like. well, ask them, you know what, one on one abuser, those who don't have the charisma command a giant cult but have the charisma to command one person, i'll be like, you know, is it what is it? is it the patriarchy? is a narcissistic personality disorder. what is it? and like the rules of human behavior are often speculative. they're hard to prove and they're often based on these hypotheses, can't really be tested consistently. so it's hard to say. like what makes person a cult leader? it's this amalgam of things. it's like patriarchy and white supremacy, but it's also maybe your personality disorder and every experience you've ever had. but really like the red flags to

look for are oftentimes intuitive. it's just when we've already invested so much time and money and bandwidth and hope into an experience and into person. the sunk cost fallacy us like oh well, that justifies spending even more. and so we have to sort of like use our prefrontal cortex are like executive functioning in our critical thinking to be like it's hard to get out. yeah, you know some years ago probably this is 12, 13 years ago i had had a real career dip and i called a i regarded as maybe not a but close to it and i said, you know, what can i do? and she, i want you to call landmark education, right totally. okay. all right. so landmark education comes out of iselin, just in case you didn't know don't don't even don't go and click on their website because. they'll follow you forever. so i thought, oh, this person is a mentor she knows what she's

talking about. she's so and you know, i did on them because they're all over the place. believe me, you want a landmark class, they'll bring you in and they said, well, this class that you will go to is, i don't know. let's say it was 1500 dollars, maybe it was a little bit less. it was just enough to hurt, but not enough for me to say no. and so i signed up for this class. then i did my research my critical thinking, checked and i learned that part of, you know, landmark is admitting that everything is your. and i thought i a video of a rape victim being told claim that the rape was her fault. i thought, okay, i'm out. i'm out. and so i called up and said, i'm not to your class. well, we're not your money. okay, i've sunk it. they called me four months and months to get me to try to suck

me back in. they really don't like it when you any kind of as if to say it's so good that you said no and you trusted your gut and your critical thinking on that. because some people myself included might be like, well, i've paid the money. i keep my money back. that's exactly what's going to and not end like that's honestly i had so many red flags and my first day i talk about this in my book on day one so many but it was not refundable. and i'm like, what could possibly what could go wrong? not knowing you can totally be called it. upgrading belief system, but you can have a new belief system implanted if you're open in three days. and these are like 12 hour days. so by day three, i was, i was in, i was like, this is the best thing ever. and i made sure i got my money's worth right. yeah, yeah. impressive question over here. i thank you, amanda. thank you, sarah. opening up and your critical thinking about all of these issues and one thing i haven't heard is the the main motivate factor perhaps of these is money.

and you ron hubbard famously said the best way to make money is to start a religion. and of course, we all know dianetics and scientology as a result, he also said sell them a piece of sky. right, exactly. so, i mean, i think do you in your in research or your podcasts and have you had a economists join you to talk about because but then along with the emotional theme of the economic theme is a constant in cults or religions or what have you have you thought about have you about the money? yes. i spoke to a bunch of economists for, the book, especially for my chapter on, the multilevel marketing industry. it really depends. i think one step up from the motivation of money is power. there are plenty of cults that as a badge of honor to operate on a dogma of poverty. there was not a lot of being

tossed around in the manson family. a lot. yeah, there's there's some money being being tossed around in a lot of these groups, but some of them focus more exploitation, sex rather than exploitation. financial. you and i. yeah, i think it is a combination of all of these ingredients in the recipe of power or i, i would i mean yeah i think money a huge motivator especially in this but if your main goal is money i would say your bet is probably to start a tech company which are by no coincidence extremely cultish i have to agree i money, sex and power in different varieties like i know with keith ranieri, we had many opportunities to share our curriculum because i was like one of the recruiters and i'd be like, oh, this harvard lululemon, which is also called with use landmark, by the way as they're all that i ever

wanted to go through it and at one point i was in touch with their head of h.r. they were looking for a new thing, something that was deeper. i thought we were the thing and i got nancy salzman. keith's right. woman a meeting with the head of the person at lululemon. and i made meeting and like, this is going to blow our -- up. like i thought this was the best thing ever. keith wouldn't it happen? he said, if they want to do it, they're going have to come to albany and take a 16 day training. it's like just -- way he kiboshed. he didn't want it to happen. he didn't want the people there see what he was doing because he knew that having a critical i would blow his cover. he wanted just enough money to make sure that he had enough for women really he didn't he didn't for it that's what he wanted. but other people i mean other groups like something different. yeah. but almost every religion that i find culty has like people tithing giving 10% or more of their what they do with all that money. i mean if you look at, you know, certain churches, there's so much money put into, say, churches to their you know, they've real estate and buildings and, all of these things. we're like, oh, my god, the moonies, so many cults have,

their hand in mainstream culture. i mean, the cult that i talk about in cultish the, happy, healthy holy organization, which is like kundalini yoga 3h0 yeah. they, they own yogi tea. we all like, you know, the mainstream getty love. i don't drink. yeah they have a hand in like the security industry like the moonies basically run the sushi. and as we talk about young life, which is run by the family. yeah, yeah. that documentary, arlington, that's where they're based know run the national prayer breakfast. i do. yeah. the assembly is so scary. there's so many flags for all these groups. it's really important to do your research. i oh, sorry. i was just going to the last thing i was going to say is that like it is true, though, that around hubbard was was just basically like sci fi geek who took it way too far because he wanted to make money. i think if j.r.r. tolkien really wanted to start a religion. he could have started a better one and we probably have time for one or two more questions. so first answer briefly because there's three.

i see. okay. yeah, we'll go we'll go really fast. lightning round because this topic is so broad and so deep and you guys have such unique expertise. would consider collaborating on like you both have podcast did you collaborate on a project together to continue conversation. i think this is a collab here's our first caller we've had a few collabs in each other's paths. i would do anything with amanda. i would do. these are both fantastic. thanks friend is the best game silver linings. yes. so what you're? just talking about l ron hubbard and it's sort of like he didn't necessarily intend to start this huge thing that ended up. i was just thinking the same thing about other cultures sometimes maybe not start with the worst. i mean, i know it's totally axiom he all you know always sketchy things in his past that he was doing too. but then nancy salzman came in i know the new season of the valley is going to go into her role in the right just thinking that sometimes do they maybe she

necessarily intend the brand people. no i'm going to tell you right now. so, yes, thanks for reminding me. season two of the vow drops monday a little bit culty we'll be talking about it in our patreon we're doing behind scenes live scream live streaming that so sidebar there patreon is popping off you're going to want to join superhot join it now yes i would say that katherine area plan this from the beginning. yeah maybe not necessarily branding but he was diabolical from the beginning other like i you know we've studied randomly baron baptiste who's got a allegedly allegedly at yoga. yoga. i believe and i know people knew him from the beginning that he was a good yoga teacher, but then he had all these women throwing themselves at him and like egos get in the way and he's human. and he got a little bit called d people who who with him told me he's keith ranieri in a yoga studio minus the branding i heard experience that personally but i think there is a difference between people who start off diabolical or machiavellian and people who slowly, you know, down the hall

of ego toxic spirituality. well, i learned talking to a bunch of people including a scholar of fascism is that we think of all leaders as these genius mastermind minds. but even keith ranieri, i would like to think of himself that way. but mostly they're just these opportunists who start out with a little idea and then just grab on to streamer of power that floats from the sky. i don't know what metaphor that is, but i mean, jonestown famously was just like that. so fun. but yeah, jonestown famously started as an integrationist church, you know, these were pretty innocent aims. dave, time for two more quick questions. two very quick. let me you you don't have to be anywhere. yeah, i hear those two. yeah, three. voodoo three. it was really quick. okay. yeah, real fast. really fast.

so we're also going to be signing books so we can talk one on one. okay. so it's election time around here. you spoke specifically about certain. we haven't talked about politics, races or or styles and we have to guys, we can be on the lookout for, you know, things that oh, that's a that's a way of phrasing something. my god it is a hallmark. i would love to know if either of you or both of you want to talk about any political commercial or something you've seen where you immediately said, oh, there it is. i mean, i see it everywhere. i'm canadians have a slightly different perspective, but i specifically in our podcast, we don't political. we just give people processes to think it. any time you're on side and you villainize the other side, you don't see people as human. we're all trying to like, live and, grow and be well. we're all human. that vulcanization, us versus them is hugely problematic. and so and that division, the divisiveness that's helping right now is problematic. so i would just say just be aware of the language that

separates us from other humans. that's a beautiful sentiment. get political, though. yeah, i can't be denied that certain populist leaders will use the power of repetition to drill home mistruths because repetition is so powerful in misleading us, allowing us to believe something is true when it's not. because we trust and ease of processing more. we trust actual knowledge. and when someone has an ability to coin a catchy nickname to villainize opponents, that's really fun as a listener and as a speaker to use catchy nicknames, but it's obscuring the fact that that's just cultish. right here. oh, my. is if you think that someone is

involved in, something that's a little bit culty, whether it's an mlm or, whatever. yes how do you open the door to them get out without saying, oh my god, you're in a cult. that's a great question and don't say that. and i have to say that's perfect. if anyone wants to talk to my mother afterwards, i'm sure she'll be happy to share her experience because she knew the whole time and. canadian joan baez. she was the one in the beginning she did was was really important. she kept the door open for me. never directly said it. i mean, i her disapproval because she's my mother very close but i would say it's important to to keep the door open, to be non-judgmental, ask curious of how do you get paid exactly. and you know you know, as things that will help the person come to it themselves, tell them they're in a cult. i actually have lot of if anyone's concerned someone they know her in family or friends or whatever sarah edmondson dot com slash resources. i have a ton resources there and you can speak actual experts who are really good at this things

and everything in that side of it. but i will say that there is a way to do it in a way to do it and just keep it like keep your your arms so they have a place to go when they wake up. because if they feel like you've judged them, then they're not going to come to you and you want you want them to feel not isolated. we've got a question. yes. pink helmet. well i guess i kind of have a question about like privilege and lack of privilege, cults. i was thinking, well, we've been talking earlier and stuff about like cult leaders coming from positions of privilege. and i think in some ways that is true. but i also think about some ways which cult leaders didn't come from positions of like in the example that we offered about david koresh playing the guitar and being i was thinking about, you know, being he was born to a 14 year old single mother, was dyslexic and was abused as a child. he claimed that he had been molested. if you believe what he about his own childhood. but then you also have cult leaders who do come sort of from within the establishment or, who come from within sort of a

position, social power, people like, you know, or even people like ron hubbard. and then there are cults that seem to operate sort of within like affluent or socially powerful places in society, kind of like scientology recruiting from like hollywood actors and stuff in their cults that seem to recruit and operate among people who don't have anything like jonestown, the branch davidians for or they do have stuff but like the currency of the cold is as much their flesh and blood as the money that they have. and i guess the question that i had is is there any kind of underlying like fundamental structural differences in how these cults operate or like what their end goals are and cults that affect people who have like social power and or money versus those who don't social power and or money for. example i feel like you should be on the panel. of the history major snap's, a very smart one. i know. i love people come with the cult knowledge. yeah, i think of course there

will be fundament all structural differences depending the esthetic or the fields of of particular cult. you're absolutely right. you know, a fundamental realist mormon sect and, evangelical political cult like the family will not be operate in the same sociopolitical sector. they're not going to be pulling from the same populace. but to our point before about opportunism, i think you're probably not to start a cults in an arena that is far outside what's familiar to you are far outside your own or far outside your socioeconomic position. i think you're going to brand opportunistically such that the people are joining. you can see themselves in you and sort of an aspiration away. so this is why, you know, the

founder, lula ro. who is this, you know, blond pasadena, native with acrylic nails, no shade, decided to start leggings, mlm and not as egalitarian forming cults in hudson valley because that was her particular appeal and then i think the structure of the cult and the recruits are follow from there and are not so much strategic as opportunistically targeted. i. all right. i want to think we have to end. yeah, you have to end. oh, this has been amazing. thank so much. sarah and amanda thank you so much for having us. what a

and let me introduce you to our