>> can you talk about the test for growth hormones for that research that went into this? >> i can't. the search for a test for growth hormone abuse started in 1996.

it split in 2 two different paths, one of which is the test we are discussing today which is the eyes support test. that test was based on the fact that when people were given growth hormones this test could discriminate or classified people correctly between users and nonusers. the other test having recognized a two day window was not going to be the best solution for us, the other test is a bio markers tests and that is an indication of the effect of growth hormone on the body and since those effects of last much longer than the growth hormone is actually there the window of detection is much broader and the other two tests currently in development. >> did trials include a wide range of individuals with a wide range of body types? >> yes, it did. >> as the test gone through the

peer review process and what were the results of that process? >> as i mentioned the test has had four publications related to the test itself published in the peer review literature. the bio markers test has had 33 publications weighing the background for the tests and again those are in. the literature. quite a bit of research has been done over the last 15 years. >> thank you. mr. chairman, just yesterday the committee received a letter from scott blackman of the u.s. olympic committee stating, quote, given the stringent review process, the utmost confidence in the approved testing methods to detect h. g. h. and i ask unanimous consent to answer this letter. >> without objection so ordered.

>> we now to the gentleman from tennessee. >> thank you for joining us today. i will take this in a different direction than we have forgotten so far as a practicing physician for 20 years, we are overlooking to some extent the source of the problem here and to my knowledge ag age is not something you can go down to gmc and get. it has to be prescribed by a physician. i know from my experience i have had a patients come and who were undersized and off of the growth charge and those discussions have occurred whether it is appropriate to use this hormone and generally that is referred to an endocrinologist. what is confusing to me is why is this so readily accessible

and who are the doctors who are providing this for the wrong reasons and why is the punishment not starting their and maybe we don't have to worry so much? i know bad things will happen of long as there are bad people or bad players in the game. can anyone enlighten me on what the punishment has been for physicians' prescribing h g h? linn goldberg? >> many of the kids who think they're getting a g h get it from the internet. you put in to buy steroids you can get many thousands and thousands of hits, you can send away for a file of steroids for human growth hormones, whether they are in reality human growth hormones or steroids is questionable. they have been looked at but from eastern europe you can't get those, they are readily available.

>> without a doctor's prescription. >> without a doctor's prescription. >> mr. gimbel. >> the other issue is many athletes, pro, college, are going to health food store its and buying tons of muscles supplements which are not regulated. the fda does not regulate that industry, the survey that has been done randomly over the years, many of these products have had a g h and anabolic steroids in them. the fact is products are working and they are working so well, many professionals think something is not right. it needs to be regulated so we have a whole industry from energy drinks up to what you buy in these wars or on the internet that is not regulated and it is a real russian roulette when it

comes to what these kids are buying which are probably getting more from the internet and these stores than they are from their doctors. >> you can't get h g h from 8 till. you can get anabolic steroids and there was a study of u.s. supplements in 2003 that 18.6% of supplements, 240 supplement's analyzed and true anabolic steroids in them but that wasn't on the label but because they are not regulated, make them work. >> career change has become a big problem with over the counter supplement. i have a son who played linebacker this year, 140 pounds, he's not going to the next level. he and his other teammates want to continue, i sold them barrels of this and half times throughout the game lane on the sidelines getting stretched out,

hamstrings and college football, players routinely go to the halftime getting iv fluids, not something that was common. even as a physician and a father i could not influence my own sun from going to gmc and taking them. that is a big problem. how do we do a better job? you have been working on it. >> we have got to keep on educating. i come across a coach who comes up to me and i finally had a meeting with my parents, my 9-year-olds, just before the game the parents make him go back in the parking lot and choke down energy drinks at 9 years old. i am trying to reach a high school, are we talking grammar school now? the case of telling that story to another bob warner coach.

>> i actually, a mother giving a 9-year-old a wax and give so he could make his weight at 9 years old -- just as a point of personal privilege i have to tell you i have gotten over my grudge, i may vikings fan. i was not upset when he retired four years ago. i have gotten over it. >> that is why you have been so successful. >> 40 years is all it takes. >> i haven't gotten over losing the browns in baltimore. but 40 years might do it. with that, we now go -- i want to get this just right, mr. quigley who was here at the start. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

those watching this note that the house has a long history of having hearings about performance enhancing drugs in sports, some of unfairness, some of them infamous. what struck me in looking at this meeting was it used to be major league baseball was behind. now is the only major sport testing for 8 g h. sandwich feet and lb association and the commissioner can agree on this it makes no sense to me that national football league can't as well. i want -- anybody on the panel wants to help, the way you take h g h is in sequence, correct? you are on for a while and off for a while. would does that mean in terms of why these tests are preferred given what you mentioned earlier about the fact that there is a

gap where the test celeste's the short period of time. >> there is not a preference for one versus the other. they are complementary. when we get them both validated, we use both of them. the good example was we had the bio markers test used at the games in london this summer and two athletes in power lifting tested positive by the bio markers test and did not test positive by the eyes of forms test and the reason was they admitted to using growth hormone eight days before. unfortunately, since the olympic games one of the companies that was supplying the kits we were using for the bio markers test has taken it off of the market. until we can validate another procedure for that particular test we can't use it.

>> does anyone to the bile markers tests at all? >> the only lab that was approved to do it was the london lab for the olympics. to the best of my knowledge there are no other labs that have been approved the use that test. >> back to what i mentioned before, the sequence in which an athlete would take doing -- human growth hormone, what they appear to naturally go off, how does that affect the time of the test? >> both of the tests are best used in what we call no advance notice, random around competition testing. testing on game day for example doesn't make a lot of sense to me. i would be doing my testing away from that when people are training and at a time they don't know they are going to be tested. that makes both tests effective. >> they take this for how long a

period and how long are they off the table? >> the answers it depends but they would take that cycle that might be every day for several weeks and then stop. any time you drop them during the period of time they ridge taking that the test would probably be positive. there are some athletes we have interviewed that say they take it for weight, those people use it slightly differently than what i just described so it would be difficult to find them and if you were going to schedule a test in advance -- >> who advises athletes? the mastermind, how did they find the athletes, some sophistication in understanding how to take this at all safely and what sequence? >> one of the things we have

found over the years is there's a lot of money involved here and what companies interested in getting athletes and selling their products and teaching them how to do it. years ago we were into this cycle with the bout co lab where ridge time the government would ban a certain chemical in a steroid they would go back and change it because again supply and demand. market for the product, people willing to pay, there is an underground, trainers, people who will teach athlete how to do things the wrong way because again there goal is to play as long as they can, be as strong as they can, as fast as they can, recover from their injuries, there's a lot of money at stake so there are people that will teach them whether it is a trainer or a coach or people that will teach the other side as much as we are trying to teach how to do at the right

way. >> i also represent -- for my house, you have to be a fan of the bears or vikings or packers to appreciate what mr. butkus did to make this game great. >> we now recognize the gentleman from south carolina. >> thank you, mr. chairman. science is the reason some of us went to law school. i will not be asking any questions rooted in science. >> the gentleman is not that kind of lawyer. >> no, sir. i was not. i am not any kind now but i do want to ask some questions concerning reliability. you could be suspended from the nfl for certain criminal offenses and i am wondering if there are any studies on the

reliability of jury verdicts that the players association is insisting on before you can suspend someone for suffering a criminal conviction? >> hearing no response, you can also be suspended for certain tackles or certain conduct on the field which requires ascertaining someone's in 10, whether they had malicious intent to injure before you can be suspended and by wonder if the players association is insisting on some test to study the reliability of ascertaining people's malice or intent. >> that wasn't going on when i was playing. i am not aware of any test now where they have scientifically tested the the the the to ascertain people's intent when

they go to tackle someone but here is the issue to me, you can be suspended for trafficking hgh. you could be suspended for that. what test would they use in court? if you can be suspended for the conviction and that test, the players association, why can't that same task be good enough in this realm? not all at once. is there a different test you would use? if there were a prosecution for an nfl player for trafficking hgh and they could be punished for suffering that conviction. how is the test used in court to determine whether it was hgh any different from the test being proposed now? >> there's a slight difference but i agree with your comments.

it is inconsistent and it seems appropriate that you do the tests that you do. >> mr. chairman, i think there was a clause in the cba over the next several weeks, the two parties would develop specific arrangements to implement hgh, with the goal of beginning in the 2007 regular-season. has anyone been able to determine what the intent of the players association was when they agreed to that language? was there a test they had in mind when they agreed to that? is the chairman of where? is there any test they would find acceptable? >> the gentleman would yield? in the previous season the ranking member and i had a proposed deal in which they would simply collect the samples so that when they agreed to this, eventually they would at

least have a collection of retroactive evidence. we had an agreement, they left, the agreement fell apart, they refused to have a collection. be have to tell the gentleman one of our frustrations is they wouldn't even agree to eventually have a test once they agreed to and that is one of the frustrations, the ranking member and i thought we had an agreement that got reneged on by one side to the detriment of the players. >> i will close with this because i can't unlock this conundrum. you pick your favorite player, dallas cowboy, pick your favorite player, can be suspended from the nfl if they suffered a conviction for trafficking hgh after a court case, after due process. if convicted they can be

suspended. how is the test that would be used different from what is being proposed in this setting? if it is good enough for that to be suspended why is it not good enough for this way? is the science somehow different than it is outside the courtroom? >> i welcome the opportunity to ask the players association that question. >> i thank the gentleman. with that we go to the gentleman from the north of virginia, mr. connolly. >> thank you to our panelists for being here today. i want to assure you 70 is the new 40. just like 60 or 52 is the new 30. may be -- you talk passionately about your awareness of the fact

that as an athlete you are and have been a role model and you took that responsibility to heart. among your colleagues including those who are current players is it your sense that most players understand that? >> i would hope so but i can't say it is across the board. i would only say as far as i'm concerned, football was everything for me and it is payback time, time to give back and that is what we try to instill outstanding linebackers as a vehicle to lay claim, anybody eligible gets a letter from us to take the pledge that you will play, that is all we

can do. we reach millions of kids. that is just one of my ways of giving back. g.i. joe no. it has been tough. one of the most difficult things. because of what mr. gimbel is saying about this deal about winning. >> mr. cummings was talking about kids in his district in all four areas, many were low-income, can't afford to go to an nfl game but they're aware of nfl players as role models and they are taking drugs. the rest of us, just so you know, don't do it but as role models do it they officiate told point. >> i believe so. >> the title of this hearing is hgh testing in the nfl, is the

science ready? i am glad we're having a hearing. linn goldberg, is the science ritter? >> that is up to dr. bowers, the validity of the test. we lookit the sensitivity and specificity of testing, this is a test the way mary describes it, more like testing for alcohol. it could be very difficult to find positive tests and when you find a positive test it is probably a true positive. to test what is important. if it is to weed out all users, cycling on and off, half of the time when you test you are not going to find it because if you are testing how frequently you are testing will determine whether you're going to pick up anybody or very few people.

if an athlete feels it enhances their performance and that is the reason they're playing in the nfl or any other league, they will take the chance to use this, as one athlete told me i would rather play in the nfl then drive a truck in idaho. >> if i understand your testimony, you said to another panelist earlier that the incidence of false positives >> [talking over each other] >> that is correct. as i said, worldwide there have been 13,000 tests done, there have been 11 positive is. eight of the 11 admitted use. the other three it has been the lawyers. >> if i am understanding your testimony and that of linn goldberg, we don't have a plethora of false positives

which suggest the science is fairly accurate. we have is an understatement on the use of hgh because of the regularity of testing, the randomness of it, the finding of it so as a matter of fact those 13 positives or whatever the number probably significantly understate the widespread use of hgh please >> i would agree with that. >> so the science isn't so much the question. dr. linn goldberg pass to that of the you, dr. bowers. are we ready? is the science ready for this kind of testing in the nfl? >> yes. we have a question before about the peer review. i can tell you why organize the media in 2004, of 75 people that attended, 20 were growth hormone experts that had no association

with the sport and based on the recommendation of that meeting in 2004, the test was implemented at the olympics in athens in 2004 so there definitely has been peer review. people look at this disgusted and have gone to that. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> will you yield for a second? i think the gentleman makes a great point that this test at best will be a little bit like on the freeway with radar guns. the vast majority of people drive over the speed limit and denied encounter a policeman but on occasion they do and the accuracy of the radar gun sadly is quite good. >> mr. chairman, i will add to that, if you are charged, it is not a defense in the court of law to say everyone else was doing it too. >> exactly. the gentleman is correct.

>> mr issa over here. >> i wasn't looking -- >> with that analogy, a very good analogy with the speed. everyone else as you know will slow down when that person is caught on the side. >> nothing slows you down more than flashing lights with the other guy. >> go down the road three more miles and they are all speeding again. >> the gentleman is correct. no one in this audience today is suggesting police stopped looking for speeders. with that we recognize the gentleman from arizona. >> thank you. i would like to look up at the monitor. we are going to live get a quote from london fletcher, the middle linebacker from the washington redskins. hopefully the nfl and the nfl players association will implement the new hgh test endorsed by the international

anti-dumping. next slide. another quote from wide receiver anthony downs all those who seems to agree with fletcher. a huge step for our league and i know talking to other guys in the locker room they are in favor of the too. a lot of rules are save the oriented and this is as important or more important than anything else. next slide. a quote from atlanta falcons dyson claymore and he said gaza getting busted and there was a needed. agenda anticipate there will be a lot of guys getting caught because i don't see it really being a huge problem. that there is really only one way to find out and that is to start testing. my question is it really sounds like many of the players are in favor. >> i haven't taken a survey but i believe they are. >> it seems to me there is a nice quote that is applicable

here. just do it. if there are enough players, you of will your players, you just do it. >> they have got a union and they are representing their players and what they think is right and in this case you have the player representative from the falcons saying let's move on and get the testing done and another one said that there might be a surprisingly few that will come up positive. i don't know the answer to that. again, i would think they would all want to play on an even playing field. >> seems to me we ought to be having voices heard. >> probably more so than mine. >> and i give no quarter. i will take another step. i applaud you for how you look at yourself as a role model because i think there's a counterculture and i think it exemplified a comment that came from charles barkley in regards

to his aspect as a role model versus karl malone and the dialogue was very intense but so particulates. i disagree with pro bowl players. i am around enough of them to know that it is also about me me me. >> true. that goes with what mr. gimbel has been saying, win at any cost. like i said before, football since i was 9 years old, has been very good to me. is a way to payback. as far as these other statements i don't go around trying to be a hero. i don't know what happens. if people are going to listen to something positive that i may say for help kids with, i got to take that obligation to do it. i don't feel great sitting here doing this. i am a former player but what we

got to do is think about the kids. i realize kids are looking up. to say they're not, look at fantasy football, on. what other event in the world besides something tragic than the super bowl. >> i agree. i am just doing my little part. >> i don't care what you say. >> i appreciate lot more nfl players taking notice and picked up that role of leadership and personal accountability and personal responsibility to that role. one more question to doctor tabak and dr. bowers. have we seen any other studies that kids who do hgh and these other drugs are they much more prone to doing... other drugs?

>> there are very few studies that speak to hgh per se among the young. but anecdotally, one case report, there's report particularly with anabolic steroids. >> this is one we would like to follow upon, compulsive behaviors. there is some type of tracking. >> multiple studies showing those who take performance enhancing drugs, not just the case report but all over the world literature. if you're going to reduce performance enhancing drugs, reducing alcohol and other drugs. >> from a point of personal privilege, i was also one of those growing up in western wyoming, we were happy to see you retire. thank you very much for the way

you played and the way you hold your head very high. we appreciate that. >> thank you. >> you are rough. i thought desjarlais held a grudge. now the gentleman from texas, mr. farenthold. >> thank you. mr. butkus, i would like to follow-up on the line of questioning dr. gosar just completed. we heard the quotes he brought out from various players. we have heard from this panel pretty much unanimously indicating that the use of hgh has some potential side effects. we have heard and i think it is common sense that we want our athletes to compete in a fair fashion without chemically induced advantages. where is the resistance to this?

having been in the nfl and looking at it from the outside, why aren't both sides saying let's just get this done and be over with it and take this problem off of the table? >> i don't know. [talking over each other] >> i don't know. there must be some doubt as far as the reliability but these gentlemen have proven or done -- done documentation that it is reliable. i have no idea why they wouldn't go along with it. i think it is the lawyers. >> as we look at the bigger picture, substances being used by athletes, we talked earlier about the supplements that you can buy on the internet and health food stores that may or may not contain illegal substances and a lot of athletes i talk with you have gotten

caught have said all i did was go to g n c and by some protein power or a muscle product. i didn't know that it had anabolic steroids or whatever broke the rule and i think there's some concern that this is a bigger issue and some athletes may be concerned that they are going to do the right thing but also get caught doing something that might be wrong. as we look at this, the panel is talking about it, the issue of unregulated supplements is a huge issue that needs to be addressed. >> we don't have time -- outside the scope of this hearing. i want to take another step back. i don't want to diminish the negative impact of banned substances or any other substance on our players after

they retire. as they are moving forward, i would also be concerned as to what is the appropriate role of the federal government? it is fun to have football greats like mr. butkus to testify. it is an honor to be in the same room with someone i admire the growing debt but is this something that might be better worked out, is there a way to work this out without the federal government being involved in it? and i will entertain comments from anybody on the panel. dr. gimbel? >> several years ago when the first steroid hearings were held it open up a dialogue and open up to the american people about performance enhancing drugs in major-league baseball at the time and that was such an important role that this

committee did because it gave us to work with kids a lot of leverage, a lot of knowledge and it also will couple lot of professional college life let me, not only about the dangers that the consequences. there's a definite role in doing what this committee has been doing which is dialogue and awareness and educating the public. >> obviously protecting our kids is absolutely critical but i do hear from people, you are about to go off of the fiscal cliff, what you doing having a hearing on hgh? >> let me add this. if the public was aware of the number of our kids who are taking some level of these performance enhancing drugs, they would be demanding hearings. if it were cocaine or heroin or anything else they would be

saying why aren't we doing something? >> haven't we done our part by making illegal their use? are we basically up here trying to educate the public? >> that is a huge role. we are trying to clarify questions and make it very clear what role is of parents, coaches, the league as well as the government, what we're supposed to do or what we can or can't do, what we can control and what we can't. my time is expired. hy would like to thank you all for being here. thank you for the opportunity. >> will you yield for a moment, perhaps i can answer one of your constituents's concerns for the ranking member -- the one thing i get asked all the time is can't congress do more than one thing at a time? to agree extent, there are leadership working on a cliff, there are committees working on

what they are doing and this committee wasn't even supposed to be in session this week, trying to take full advantage of being here to do as many things as we can. i might note that the gentleman has been incredibly helpful looking at doing oversight on a lot of things that people may not have understood until we started finding out for example hydraulic fracturing was under attack and so on. i want to thank the gentleman for multitasking in his life as well. before we close, to you want to do a second round? >> no, sir, mr. chairman. >> i yield to the ranking member for his clothing. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank all of you for being here today. one of the things that i say to my kids, i tell from, mr.

butkus, try to figure out what is the enemy of your destiny? what is the enemy of your destiny? because i believe if they try to figure out what might block them from getting where they want to go they will begin to change those things now so they can get where they're trying to go. i would hate to think that the enemy of young people's destiny is them looking up to athletes who may be doing something improper and then they try to emulate that and next thing you know they find themselves in trouble. a lot of people ask why would the chairman of this committee look at these things. it is not that we want to beat up on the wheat or anything like that. we do care about our children and we had our chance.

that is one of the things i admire about all of you. what chances are we blocking our children in? your testimony has been very very helpful and hopefully as we move down the line, players will see how incredibly ridiculous it looks for them not to -- maybe they need to talk to their lawyers and straighten this thing out. we have to move on this and move down the line and we're getting to the third season and it does not look very good. part of responsibility is when you agree to something, carrying through with it and if you can't carry through with it at least show a good reason why you can't

and show that there is a way forward. if you can, get it done. right now we are not seeing that but your testimony has been very helpful because you go on the record, not only on the science but the effect that it has on our young people. so thank you very much, thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. cummings. i want to thank the witnesses. making a record is an important part of the process. each of you has brought an insight, mr. butkus, even though you don't have a ph.d. behind your name, your humble us and your recognition that your continued dedication to a clean sports added more than 0 science can add to the human side of this hearing. for our scientists, i want to thank you for beginning the

process of making it clear that a number, a contract in a testing regime has to occur and can occur and has occurred in most of the rest of the sports world. so again i want to thank you for your time as we go into the holiday season and we are adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> the brookings institution posting a forum this morning on the future of homeownership. speakers include banc of america ceo brian moynihan. that is why on c-span at 10:00 eastern. >> the white house was very controversial as most things in america were. there was competition, he submitted a design for a palace, america having a palace, it was not particularly awe inspiring. in 1821, a european diplomat told congress it was neither

large nor awe inspiring but the answer, the congressman gave said the building serves its purpose. if it were larger and more elegant perhaps some president would be inclined to become its permanent resident. >> former new york times photo critics vicki goldberg has gathered her favorite white house photos in the white house, the president's home in photographs in history. sunday evening at 7:30 eastern and pacific on american history tv on c-span3. >> now a hearing on the conflict in the eastern congo. house foreign affairs subcommittee is looking into the administration's efforts to resolve the crisis in the region and rwanda's support of congolese rebels. this is a little more than 2-1/2 hours. >> we will come to order and good afternoon. i apologize for the lateness in starting. today's hearing will examine u.s. policy in the democratic

republic of congo, this was exacerbated by rwanda's intervention in neighboring eastern congo as documented by the release of three united nations reports this year. these reports confirm rwanda's support of militias who have ravaged and continue to plague this region. the state's--unable to testify at the sept. 19 hearing on this issue. the subcommittee promised to follow up was available to testify. the aftermath of the genocide, the administration turned a blind eye to reports of rwanda and plundering of resources from the d r c and support for rebels who have devastated eastern congo and its people. built over the clinton administration's causal failure responding effectively to the genocide in rwanda has led his subsequent u.s. administration being reluctant to criticize the government of rwanda. with these u.n. reports on that

behavior, we must overcome our regret over what happened 18 years ago. in a letter to president obama, the united states is now out of step with our european allies who have cut aid to rwanda because of their interference in the d r c as recommended by the u.n. group of experts in their recent report. .. >> has not been able to completely train military elements that too often

terrorize their own people instead of protecting them. at this point it is vital to understand what the administration intends to do about the u.n. reports on rwanda's violation of the arms embargo, nonstate groups in eastern drc and how this impacts u.s. relations with rwanda. furthermore, we must know how the administration intends to deal with the drc government. this hearing will take a comprehensive look at who is responsible for the insecurity in the eastern congo beyond the government and the militias. most attention is being paid to the rebel movement in eastern congo, and justifiably so. in light of their recent seizure of territory and overall destructive impact on the people of eastern congo. there are as many as two dozen armed groups terrorizing congolese in this region.

according to a report, nine of these militias are believed to be the most prominent. they range from those with a focus on rwanda or you uganda to those formed in response of the flight of the 1994 genocide in rwanda to the drc or those singularly focused on the drc itself. whatever the reason for their founding, these militias have terrorized the people of the eastern congo and the drc as a whole. we must identify their support base and then the flow of arms and other aid that enables their ongoing reign of terror. according to the u.n. office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs, insecurity in eastern congo has displaced approximately 2.4 million people nationwide, especially in the east. despite longstanding conflict in the eastern congo, the ocha estimates that the majority of displaced persons typically return to their areas of origin within 6-18 months of their

initial displacement and require minimal return assistance. while that may be true, it does not account for the kind of life the congolese will have once they return to their homes. women continue to be targeted for gross abuse in the drc. a study that recently appeared in the american journal of public health concluded that an average of 48 women and girls are raped every hour in the country. so as with the february 2nd and september 19th hearings on the drc this year, more than 100 females in drc will be raped before our hearing today ends. their rejection by their families, husbands and communities casts a cloud over their future efforts to recreate communities destroyed by militias in the drc. this must be addressed by the congolese themselves, of course, with any help that can be provided from the outside sooner rather than later. since our hearing in september,

m23 has made significant gains in territorial control occupying burma for ten days while moving south ward. however, international pressure played a major role in the group ending its advance south ward and withdrawing by early december. the m23 rebels reportedly have agreed to peace talks in kampala sponsored by the government of uganda. there have been peace talks and peace accords in the drc before, and they didn't hold as we all know. will this effort achieve a lasting peace peace? the drc is home to an abundant mineral wealth including 70% of the world's -- [inaudible] and vast deposits of cobalt,

copper and box identity. boxite. now oil has been discovered in eastern congo. can a way be found to prevent the drc's blessings from being turned into curses? the tragic genocide in rwanda in 994 has had lasting repercussions in the drc, but since the 880s resentment over the perceived influx of people considered foreigners in the drc has contributed to conflict in this region, including two regional wars. various leaders have used this antipathy for political purposes, painting their supporters against their perceived opponents. can interethnic partners be finally resolved so that a lasting peace among all the people of the drc is achieved? our witnesses today are well positioned to address questions regarding a path forward, and

the obstacles that lie in that path. it is time now to find a way to bring an end to the horrific suffering to the people of the democratic republic of congo. i yield to my friend and colleague, ms. because, for her opening -- ms. bass, for her opening. >> while this committee held a hearing on the drc not too long ago, recent events motivated closer examination of this current crisis. i want to especially thank assistant secretary ambassador carson and our other witnesses for offering testimony at today's hearing. i would also like to commend many of you sitting in the audience for your tireless work toward peace and justice for those affected by the past and current crises. your concerns have been heard, and this committee will continue to elevate the status of the drc so it received the international attention needed to bring about lasting peace and stability.

myself, members of this committee and our colleagues in the senate are deeply concerned with on-the-ground reports of human rights violations, forced rape, the recruitment of child soldiers and the involvement of drc's neighbors in the eastern region. i want to stress that there's great need for the international community to work if common interest toward the resolution of a crisis that goes well beyond the m23. we must not look at the current m23 crisis in some civil, political or military vacuum, for a credible, reasonable, and longstanding stability to take hold, i urge the transparent and accountable processes be put in place that can address reforms at all levels. i want to be clear on this point. if we are to see an end to the violence and instability, then holistic reforms are desperately needed at all levels, including politically and economically. we must also see a dramatic reevaluation of the social constraints to reforms and siic engagement. the results of the deeply flawed

2011 election lay bare the challenges that must be addressed. ambassador carson, i will be interested to hear what new steps the state department will take to address these very serious challenges that remain unaddressed. let me remind the committee what is at stake. continued failure to achieve stability has torn families apart and shown clearly the base actions of those who have no concern for life and have not been brought to justice. for too long the drc has been ravaged by instability and war. for two decades eastern congo has been under siege by armed groups. yesterday was the national congress for the defense of the people, today it is m23. what will it be tomorrow? will we stand by and allow a fragile peace to be held together by empty promises? the murders and rapes must be brought to an end. what is troubling about this recent conflict is the dock

united involvement by the neighboring governments in the drc easter tore y'all integrity. while the governments vehemently deny such involvements, a growing body of evidence raises questions that suggest otherwise. i close these remarks where i began, urging that all efforts be put towards laying the foundation for lasting peace not only in the drc, but also in the region. i ask that a letter being sent to president obama be submitted for the record calling for the establishment of a special u.s. envoy and african union envoy. the purposes of these roles should be clear: to present a group of or international stakeholders that can provide critical and balanced political pressure toward a unified policy to address all aspects of this crisis. also worth mentioning is a second later signed by organizations including africa faith and justice network, the

enough project, global witness, open society foundations, refugees international among many others. in addition to calling for special envoys, this group boldly calls for global leadership to engage constructively in a comprehensive political process. thank you, and i look forward to today's testimonies. >> thank you very much, my friend be, ms. bass. any other panelists like to make an opening comment? yes, mr. turner. >> thank you, mr. chairman. just like to raise a point. throughout the conflict the minds remain open. minerals, gems, rare earth provide the financing for the conflict. i think it's a motivation for a great deal of it. who is buying in this material? and what do we know about the chain of, of both dollars and material on an international basis? and is there anything that we or the u.n. or the african union

are doing to choke this off? that's it. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. i'd like to now introduce our witness from the u.s. department of state, ambassador johnnie carson serves as assistant secretary of state in the bureau of african affairs, a position he has held since may of 2009. ambassador carson has a long and distinguished career, over 37 years in the foreign service including time as our ambassador to kenya, uganda and zimbabwe. he has served as the director of this subcommittee many, many years ago and as the a peace corps volunteer in tanzania, he's the receiver of numerous awards from the department of state. mr. ambassador, the floor is yours. >> chairman smith, ranking member bass, members of the committee, thank you for the very kind invitation to testify before the subcommittee today on the crisis unfolding in the

eastern democratic republic of the congo, the drc. as you know, the security and humanitarian situation in the congo is the most volatile in africa today. an estimated five million people have died in the years since the second regional war began in that country in 1997-1998, and millions more have been forced to flee their homes. the people of north and south -- [inaudible] provinces in particular have faced repeated cycles of conflict and shocking atrocities. the november 20th fall of goma to the m23 rebel group provided a stark reminder that in spite of the international community's

major investments in humanitarian aid and peace keeping, the underlying causes of the recurring conflicts in the eastern drc remain unresod. the -- unresolved. the congolese government has failed to provide effective security, governance and services in the eastern provinces, and political and economic tensions persist between the drc and its eastern neighbors, particularly rwanda. since the m23 rebellion erupted last spring, the united states has worked closely with international and regional partners to mobilize a comprehensive response aimed at preventing a further deterioration of the situation. secretary clinton, ambassador rice and undersecretary wendy sherman have spoken or met with

senior congolese, rwandan, ugandan and u.n. officials to advocate for a rapid and peaceful resolution to this crisis. in the u.n. security council, we have taken action to insure that five of the m23's most abusive commanders are now under targeted sanctionings. sanctions. we have also stressed the need to hold accountable all of those who commit human rights abuses and atrocities. and i myself traveled to the drc, rwanda and uganda between november 24 and 28 with my british and french counterparts to deliver a clear and common message that the congolese, rwandan and ugandan governments must work together to stop this crisis and to work towards a sustainable resolution of

underlying issues. all three governments reit righted -- reiterated to us their commitment to these goals. we also stressed that there should be no impunity for senior m23 leaders who are under icc indictment or international sanctions for human rights abuses. the m23 would not be the threat that it is today without external support, and we will continue to discourage outside parties from providing any assistance to the m23 movement. there is a credible body of evidence that corroborates key findings of the groups eau experts' support concluding rwandan support to the m23 including military, logistical and political assistance. the british government has

recently indicated that it shares this assessment. we do not have a similar body of evidence that uganda has a government policy of support for the m23. based on this evidence, we have repeatedly pressed rwanda to halt and prevent any and all forms of support to congolese-armed groups. looking forward, we expect all parties including rue rwanda to cease any support to m23 and other armed groups, abide by the kampala accords of november 21 and 24 and to work constructively with it neighbors and the international community and take affirmative steps to end impunity for m23 commanders responsible for human rights

abuses in order to reach an acceptable political agreement. we ask the government of uganda to also insure that supplies to the m23 do not originate in or transit through ugandan territory including from individual officials who might be acting on their own. the department continues to monitor closely all potential sources of external support, and we will continue to respond appropriately including by reviewing our assistance to deter this support as the situation develops. we are taking a number of other steps in concert with other international partners as a part of our comprehensive response to the current crisis. first and foremost, we are

monitoring humanitarian needs and possiblyizing an appropriate -- mobilizing an appropriate response. the humanitarian situation in the eastern congo replains deplorable as it has been for years. but recent attacks by the m23 and other armed groups have displaced hundreds of thousands and left some areas of north and south inaccessible to humanitarian response. the united states provided more than $110 million in humanitarian assistance for congolese refugees, internally-displaced persons and conflict-affected civilians in fiscal year 2012. and at the u.n. we have urged donors to respond to the u.n.'s consolidated appeal for the

democratic republic of the congo. second, the international conference on the great lakes region known as the icglr, the african union and the security council have all demanded that the m23 refrain from further offensive operations and to remain out of goma. while the congolese government has agreed to hear the grievances of the m23 in discussions that are now taking place in cam kampala, we continue to call for accountability for the m23's most abusive leaders. and we will continue to speak out against the forcible recruitment of children and the other crimes of the o m23's

soldiers and rebels. third, we believe that the presidents must continue to engage in direct talks to address the underlying causes of instability in the region as well as the potential drivers of progress. we support the appointment of of a u.n. spell envoy -- special envoy to that sill tate the long-term solution of these problems, and we will consult with the u.n. secretary-general about in this. we will work to insure that any agreement between the parties is transparent, sustainable and enjoys the support and commitment of the region. fourth, more must be done to protect civilians in the eastern drc. we and our fellow security

council members and troop-contributing countries are reviewing options for improving the u.n.'s ability to protect civilians and help implement defined aspects of a potential regional political settlement. fifth, the drc government has the primary responsibility for protecting its territory and all, all of it citizens. we are urging president ca peel la to take clear and bold measures to insure that the soldiers of the congolese army are professionally trained. adequately paid and supported and respectful of their citizens and of international human rights norms. the extension of effective governance combined with legitimate provincial elections would also help to underpin a

lasting peace. we believe that the time has come for the region's leaders and the international community to break the cycle of violation and impunity that has existed for far too long in the eastern drc. we and most importantly the region's political leaders must insure that the national security and territory integrity of the drc, rwanda, uganda and baa ruinty are protected. we must help build a future for people who have seen more conflict than peace over the past two decades. we must help turn the vast mineral and agricultural wealth of the eastern drc into a source of economic pride and progress

benefiting the people of the region. and not contributing to conflict. the leaders of the region must establish nonviolent peens of addressing -- means of addressing their political, security, economic and border differences. as secretary clinton noted when she visited goma in 2009, the congolese people are courageous and resilient, and there are reasons for hope across the entirety of the drc including progress toward paying soldiers through electronic and mobile banking and building the capacity to provide justice in response to maas atrocities -- mass atrocities and human rights violations. we need to build on these steps which have been gravely set back

by the current m23 rebellion. the decisions taken today, the decisions taken now will have a direct impact on what happens over the next several months as well as the next several years. they will affect the behavior of other militias, the success of reforms to promote the conflicting, free trade and min call resources, and the ability to sustain operations against the vicious lord's resistance army of joseph kony that has operated in the northern part of the drc and in the central african republic. today's crisis is a tragedy, but it also offers a genuine opportunity to help the

congolese people set a more sustainable course towards peace and stability in their own country as well as with their neighbors. the framework for action at the national, regional and international levels that i have outlined today could help enable the peoples of the region to escape the recurring cycles of conflict which have hampered progress in the eastern congo for nearly two decades. thank you again for the opportunity to testify this afternoon. i have a longer submission for the record which you may have. i look forward to answering any of your questions. >> thank you so much, mr. ambassador, and without objection, your full statement, letters referenced by ms. bass before will be made a part of the record. mr. ambassador, a couple of hours ago -- at least online --

the guardian newspaper posted an article, the titlee of which is obama accused of failed policy over rwanda's support of rebel group, and it points out the letter that we all are aware of signed by 15 organizations that take the administration to task for its policy. the article begins: leading campaign groups and think tanks have written to barack obama accusing him of a failed policy over rwanda's support for rebels in the democratic republic of congo and calling on the president to impose sanctions. the letter says in pertinent part, as the situation once again dramatically deteriorates in eastern congo, the u.s. response to the crisis has patently failed and is out of step with other western nations. since m23 was created in the spring of 2012, u.s. officials continue to place faith in engaging rwanda in a constructive dialogue. this approach has clearly failed

to change rwanda's policy as evidenced by the direct involvement of the rwandan army in the recent takeover of goma as documented by the united nation's group of efforts. of course -- not of course of course, but the rue rwandans sae report is fabricated, and the u.n. report does say and they quote this as well that rwandan officials coordinated the creation of the rebel movement as well as major military operations as well as providing troops and arming the group. it recommends imposing sanctions against rwandan officials. you have just testified there is credible, there is a credible body of evidence that corroborates key findings of the group of experts' reports including evidence of significant military and logistical support as well as operational and political guidance from the rwandan government to the m23. you also point out that we do not have similar body of evidence that uganda has a

goth-wide -- government-wide policy of support to m23. now, as we all know, and i on the house side pushed very hard to get this legislation passed, a bill that was offered by then-senator barack obama called the democratic republic of congo relief security and democratic promotion act of 2006 that calls on the u.s. government to withhold assistance to any foreign countries taking actions to destabilize the drc. and i wondered if you could tell us, do the actions of rwanda merit a withdrawal of funding? does it not rise to given the collaboration of evidence as you've pointed out to withholding aid to i rwanda until they change? >> first of all, mr. chairman, i reject the headline that the administration has failed to speak out against the m23 and against -- >> that's not what they said.

with all due respect. they talked about a failed policy, not that we didn't speak out against m23. >> i think d -- >> so just to be clear. >> i think what we say and do is a part of the policy effort. and i reject that notion. and i must reject it pretty soundly. first and foremost, we have been engaged on this issue since the m23 rebellion began in april of this year. since april up until yesterday we have at all levels of the u.s. government, senior levels of the u.s. government, been working to advance greater peace and stability, an end to the current fighting, a current

withdrawal of m23 from goma and discussions between the leaders in the region. let me just give you a quick catalog. certainly between april and september i and undersecretary for political affairs, ambassador wendy sherman, were in contact on numerous occasions tell upon theically -- teleupon theically with leaders in the region i also met with leaders at the african summit in june. in september of this year, secretary clinton invited the presidents of rwanda and of the drc to meet with her on the

margins of the u.n. general assembly. to try to find ways to end the current rebellion. we participated in september as well in secretary general ban ki-moon's special meeting on the great lakes region. in addition, undersecretary wendy sherman traveled to the region in october, met with presidents kagame and this is one of the most important of her sets of meetings out there. she met with president kagame for over five hours on that visit. shortly after that we actually

did take some action because we had information that we believed indicated rwandan support, we cut off our foreign military financing to the rwandan government, one of the first such public acts by any government. and i can say that i traveled to the region for several days just after thanksgiving and traveled to kampala and to can cash shah to meet with the leaders of all three countries. i also traveled there with my british and french countercan parts -- counterparts. in addition, we have sanctioned

m23 leaders. we are about to sanction more m23 leaders and officials, and we have continued to advance our diplomacy as well as speak out against what has been happening in the region. so, mr. chairman, with all due respect, anyone who would suggest that we have been inactive would be -- >> again, mr. secretary -- or mr. ambassador, you're both -- no one is suggesting inactivity, it is what, it's the policy itself that is under scrutiny and being criticized by those 15 organizations. and there has, i mean, let me ask you this: are there sanctions contemplated, or have there been any sanctions imposed upon any rue wan tease officials

or military? >> no, but we have as i pointed out implemented sanctions which have off foreign military financing to the rwandan government and to the rwandan military. >> let me -- >> those are sanctions, and i think they're very public, and they have been terminated. >> you mentioned support for a u.n. envoy. how about a u.s. envoy? >> we actually have a u.s. envoy for the great lakes region. his name is ambassador barry wapley. he has been on the job for nearly a year. ambassador wockley is infinitely qualified to serve as our envoy there. he has served in two african

countries as ambassador, and he's previously served as deputy chief in the drc. he travels to the region quite frequently. and so there is an envoy out there already. one may quibble with the level, but the existence is there. he is active, and he is working hard on this issue along with other officials -- >> understood. but the gravitas of a presidential envoy, i believe, would send perhaps a stronger message to those that are part of the peace process. let me ask you if i could, john prendergast in his statement very strongly says by global standards the international effort to construct a credible peace process for the congo is manifestly derelict, condemning that country to further cycles of devastating conflict.

when the curtain is pulled back and one looks behind the occasional resolution calling simply for an end to the violence, the international diplomatic response is revealed to be shockingly ineffective, perhaps even violating the hippocratic oath -- first, do no harm. then it goes on from there. how do you respond to that? there well, i think i -- >> well, i think i don't want need to respond for the entire international community. all i can do is respond for the u.s. government. i know, mr. prendergast, we have been longtime colleagues and friends. he has a great deal of knowledge and expertise on the, on the region. but i would submit that the actions that we have taken reflect a high degree of interest in this situation. >> would troops recently placed

by the south african development community comprise a credible force to protect the drc/rwanda border? >> last week the sadac countries met in daughter salam, and there they agreed to send in some 4,000 troops into the eastern drc to serve as a international -- or i should say a neutral international force. one thousand troops were pledged by tanzania, the other 3,000 were going to be drawn from a southern african standby force. i do not know the capacity or the ability of the countries in the region to pull those troops together, but what i would say

is that the u.n. currently has the largest peacekeeping force in the world in the drc. and if there is an interjection of a new force, it should be done very carefully in cooperation and collaboration with the united nations. it should be well thought out and well resourced, and one should consider whether it is not better to augment and integrate those new forces into an expanded and more assertive u.n. force than to create a new force that would be operating in the area in which there are

already a large number of military and rebel forces. it could create some concerns about operational effectiveness and operational overlaps. >> i, too, have been in goma myself a few years back and know how unbelievably unstable that area is. part of the problem there, i believe, is that there's ip sufficient troops deployed even under the large u.n.deployment there. and then there's always the question of the rules of engagement. let me ask you one final question. i have many, but i'll yield to my friend, ms. bass. there are rumors that the administration sought to delay the u.n. group of experts' report on the drc this past summer and attempted to soften criticism of rwandan involvement with m23. can you speak to that? >> i reject that as out of hand. >> okay. and one final question.

the rwandans join the u.n. security council next year. does that have any bearing on what our policy will be, particularly when it comes to sanctions since they will be on the security council? >> no, it does not. i would just hope that the rwandans when they join the council will carry out their duties in a responsible and thoughtful way just as the other 15 mens of the security council -- members of the security council do. >> ms. bass. >> thank you, ambassador carson. i want to change the subject a little bit and wanted to ask if you could speak to some of the background of the m23. i mean, i do understand, you know, when they started and why, but i just wanted to know if you had any further insight as to what their ultimate aim is. what's the motivation for them to continue. and also the idea, you mentioned that there wouldn't be impunity to the commanders of the m23 to be reintegrated back into the

drc's armed forces, but how do you reintegrate any of them? how big is the m23? how many soldiers are there? >> let me speak to the first question of aim and motivation. i believe that the current group of m23 rebels want to be able to maintain themselves as consolidated military units in the eastern part of the drc. i think they see themselves as guardians of the tutsi population in the east. i suspect that some of them have political ambitions and would

seek to try to be able to be the top officials in local administrations in the, in the east. beyond that i don't know what their aims and motivations are. i know that when this rebellion started back in march and april, there was a clear desire on the part of the now-constituted m23 rebels not to be moved from the eastern part of the drc into other parts of the country. and their officers did not want to leave the military commands in which they had been assigned to take on different commands.

impunity, i think there should not be impunity for those m23 leaders who fall into three categories; those who are clearly icc indictees, those for who there are international and binational sanctions already, and thirdly, for those where there is evidence or a growing body of evidence that they have, in fact, committed atrocities and war crimes and rapes throughout the last seven or eight months. i don't have an exact figure for the number of m23 rebels.

initially, when they broke away in april of this year, the number was probably no more than a thousand. today that number has probably swelled for a lot of reasons, but it is not a legion of people. >> you know, when you were saying previously that what the president, one of the things that led to the recent rebellion was the president trying to scatter the troops? because how can you ever have peace if even if you did have sanctions against the top commanders, how can you have an army where you have a faction that wants to separate and operate independently? i don't know how that works. is so -- >> it doesn't work very well. but let me say that there have

been a number of countries that have e educatively -- effectively integrated rebel groups into their militaries. and in the process have made those militaries stronger and more consolidated. here i think there was an effort by the m23 not to leave the kivus, not to be assigned to other parts of the drc and for their leaders not to move out of the areas in which they called home. i don't think you can effectively operate a military in which you have a reintegrated rebel group deciding what -- >> right. >> -- it wants to do rather than what the military command and the government wants it to do. >> right, exactly. you also talked about the

ongoing tension on the border of rwanda and the drc, and you mentioned the u.n. peacekeeping forces and also the possibility of troops coming from south africa to secure that border. where are the peacekeeping troops? are they all over? if aren't they already on that border -- aren't they already on that border? >> no, they aren't. i think that the, the my news coe troops are scattered throughout the eastern part of north and south kivus. they are there largely to protect civilian populations, refugees and displaced persons. they are not, in fact, monitoring or working and observing along the, along the border. but our near and in towns

villages near refugee camps and displaced persons camps to respond to crises and to help the congolese military when they are called upon to do so. >> um, could you speak to the impact that conflict minerals might be playing, the role conflict minerals might be playing especially in providing resources to the m23? >> let me say that conflict minerals have always been a factor in providing resources to rebel groups in the eastern part of the congo. but, quite honestly, as serious as conflict minerals are, they are probably not the primary

reason for the current crisis. they are one of the, you know, underlying systemic reasons why the crisis can continue, but i think that the current crisis is to be found in what are the so-called grievances and in discipline of the m23 and the support they have received from outside of the country. >> and then finally, how would you assess the u.s. government's, um, response to the humanitarian crisis in the eastern region of the drc? if you could describe it. >> yeah. i think as i noted in my testimony we've given in excess of $110 million in humanitarian

assistance -- >> but maybe you could explain what some of the dollars are for. >> these dollars are used to provide food to displaced persons throughout both north and south kivus, it is to provide food and assistance to refugee populations who are there, it is to provide shelter, shelter material and blankets, it's also to provide clean and potable water and also to provide prof lactics for malaria and also medicines for dealing with issues of cholera and hygiene. >> and, i'm sorry, just one final question. what more would you like to see from congress in how can we be helpful in the situation?

>> congresswoman bass, i think your hearings, hearings such as this one give us downtown an opportunity to indicate to you what we are doing. they also give us an opportunity to hear from you what things you think we haven't been doing that might be useful to do to improve the situation. >> without objection, a statement from world relief will be made a part of the record. i yield to mr. ma rio. >> thank you, chairman. thank you, ambassador, for being here today. mr. ambassador, my research shows me that the united states, perhaps with some assistance from other countries in europe, have given about $1 billion over

the last ten years to rue won da -- rwanda and not quite that much to uganda. can you explain if we have reduced any amount given to either of those countries and how much? >> mr. congressman, the -- we have certainly in the last six months reduced our foreign military financing to rwanda by some $200,000. this would have been monies that the rwandan military could have used for the financing and purchasing of equipment. we have not reduced any of our

development assistance money to rwanda, and i might say here that rwanda does a remarkably good job of utilizing its foreign assistance resources, probably more effective than most countries across africa. they do a very good job in using that money to provide health care, agriculture, education to their people, and they do get very high marks for that. we have not touched any of their development assistance money. >> how do you draw the distinction between where that -- did you say 200,000? that's a drop in the bucket, $200,000. and i think the remark from the prime minister or the general was $200,000 was nothing.

it doesn't bother us at all. so it doesn't seem that we're very serious about this, blatantly not very serious about this. and how, how the so-called remainder of the billion over the ten years less the 200,000, how is that dispersed, and who disperses it? >> i'm not sure what the billion is that you're referring to. >> the billion dollars that my research shows that the u.s. with some assistance from europe has given rwanda over the last decade. now, you say that's been reduced at least this year, i'm assuming it's this year, by $200,000. so if you break that billion over a ten-year period, still $200,000 is nothing over an annual basis. and how can we guarantee that even though there was a reduction of 200,000 and you say, i believe you say to the

military -- and correct me if i'm wrong -- it's all fungible. >> it's not fungible. let me, first of all, say that in fiscal year 2012 that has just concluded, we provided rwanda with some $195 million in assistance. this money went primarily into health and to agricultural programs. rwanda has used its development assistance dollars extraordinarily well. as i said, probably better than most other african countries,

and most other develop countries >> how do you poll that? >> moreover, we do not provide them with direct budgetary support. we are not providing them with a check or with cash. we work through ngos, through international development organizations and agencies, and there is a high degree of accountability for all of the funding that we have given to the rwandan government. their utilization of foreign assistance in anfective manner -- an effective manner really is not at question, nor at issue. because in that regard we have to be both frank and honest x they do a very -- and they do a very good job.

we don't give them cash. we don't write them a check. but the monies that they get through the international partners is effectively utilized for the purposes it is intended for. >> i understand true my research -- through my research and contacts that there's been a great deal of hijacking of these resources by groups such as m23 and using that for their own purposes or selling that to buy weapons. >> not -- >> do you have any information on that? >> not, i'm not aware of that whatsoever. >> has the u.s. had any contact, directly or indirectly, with m23 leaders? >> no. i am not aware of any direct contact between u.s. officials and m23 leaders. there have been two meetings in kampala between leaders of the

m23 and members of the drc government. along with other diplomats, we have been in the room with observers when those sessions have been public, but we have had no direct contact which i am aware with any -- and i underscore any -- m23 leaders. >> are there any plans to get more directly involved for whatever reason by the department of state? with m23? >> well, no, not at -- no, not that i'm aware of, certainly not. >> you stated that the members have increased with m23, they've swelled over the last several months. for what reasons? >> defections from the finishing

ardic -- fardic, recruitment of individuals in the communities that they have captured and taken over. the forced recruitment of young men, all of these have contributed to an expansion of their numbers. >> okay. you started explaining a little bit the reason for the crises, but can you expand upon your answer as what you see the cause, the direct cause of the cry sis that's taking place particularly with m23's origination? >> well, m23 grows out of an organization called the cndr which was integrated into the

congolese army back in march of 2009. most of these individuals were from north and south kivu, they were part of a rebel movement. most of them were rwandaphones and tutsis in origin. in order to bring an end to a private rebellion by this group, the government of the drc brought them in to the military, integrated them in and attempted to make them a part of the, of the army. they broke away in april of in this year. i might add that not all of the cndr members from 2009 can and

before broke away. some of them remained in the, in the army. but the principal reasons for their decision to bolt and run they claim was a failure of the drc government to live up to the agreement of march 23, 2009. but other things that are clear is that the drc government wanted to move units, some of these integrated cndr units to other parts of the country. they resisted this. they wanted to move some of the leadership to other parts of the country. they resisted this. president ca peel la also did something that disturbed the, that disturbed the cndr, and he

announced that he would try to arrest one of the most notorious of the cndr leaders who had been integrated into the army, and that was bosco integanda. all these have to do with disgruntlement in the integrated rebel fashion, the background to the current crisis. >> chairman, two short questions, please? mr. ambassador, how -- you stated that the aid that we are supplying to rwanda via ngos, how can we guarantee that in -- that any of that aid is not going into regions controlled by

m23? >> the, again, i want to separate both the drc from rwanda. we have no evidence, no proof that any of the aid that we have given to rwanda has been misused or mischanneled into the hands of any rebel group. as i said before, the issue here really is not about the effective utilization of aid and aid resources. rwanda has a high level of credibility with respect to the way it uses it resources. that's not at issue. i have no doubt that they are using their resources well. so it's not funneling across the border, and it's not direct assistance, so we work with ngos and international

organizations, we audit what we give, and they use it efficiently. it's not being misused, and if you -- and in the areas of the drc, we are providing only humanitarian support and assistance, and that humanitarian support and assistance is going through organizations, mostly u.n. organizations, world food program or through unhcr or through the development assistance arm of the international, of the united nations or through care it is a or save the children or icrc. >> is that an audit that the state department conducts, or is that an audit based on information that the ngos give the state department? >> we can provide you with a full answer to this, but usaid conducts routine audits of all of its assistance programs. i cannot tell you when they did

the last ones with respect to these programs, but they conduct routine audits to insure that there's accountability. again, that's not at issue here. >> and how do you get the attention of a country like rwanda and uganda from supporting m23 by not stopping aid to the country whether it's for humanitarian needs or not? how do you get their attention? >> by engaging them continuously, diplomatically at a high level and by doing such things as indicating that, as we have done, that we will cut off their foreign military financing if they persist in carrying on.

>> i don't mean to be if see shus -- facetious, but, you know, this may be more rhetorical than a question you have to answer, but, you know, how's that negotiating going? >> it's like any set of negotiations, sometimes much longer than any of us would like, but we know that per persistence over the long run pays off. >> so is it your position that u.s. keep the plan that they have in operation right now and continue trying to negotiate this? at what point do you stop? how many people have to die before you stop the negotiations and get serious about this? ..

>> our desire is to get them to see reason, and to see it sooner rather than later, and to understand that the persistence of conflict, violence only means greater loss of life, and hurt for people. but it's not simply in our hands. we can only do as much as we can to bring people to the table and encourage them to see reason. >> in closing, this is more of a statement than a question, from my reading and research, it seems this situation is not

getting the attention that i think is required from the united nations as well. >> without objection the information requested by mr. marino and promise by ambassador garza and will be made a part of the wreck. the chair recognizes -- >> thank you, chairman smith. let me just ask ambassador garza in a couple questions. one, just going to the mandate. i think the force their of m23, that militia is about 2500 people from at least the press accounts. and i know the french have a perspective here that the ability to secure the safety of civilian population could be addressed by a more robust

authorization that would allow them to come to the defense of the civilian population. and i was going to ask you that question. and the second question i was going to ask you goes to the issue of mainly rwanda for its involvement here with him 23. and i know there was that debate iin the security council over whether or not we would express -- expressly named them, and as i recall, the u.s. position was not to be so at the time. but i think in light of events since then we now sort of have taken the position or seems the administration has taken the position that we are pointing to rwanda's engagement here. so de facto may be we have named them. just a couple, just her observations on those two points, ambassador. >> chairman royce, thank you very much for both of those questions, and also thank you

for your continued interest in africa. let me respond to the second question, first, and repeat a part of my testimony. >> sure. >> that you may have missed at the beginning. i said that the m23 would not be the threat that it is today without external support. and we will continue to discourage outside parties from providing any assistance to the m23. there is a credible body of evidence that corroborates key findings of the group of experts report, concerning rwandan government support to be m23,

including military, logistical, and political assistance. spent ambassador, i think you put that very, very well. my only question was, we had not put it in the resolution, resolution 2076, and perhaps it should have been there, that you couldn't be more explicit than you just were. and i thank you for that. it was another -- and let me just ask you about the proposed alternatives to ensure more civilian safety with respect to the mandate. >> mr. chairman, the current mandate is for some 20,000 u.n. peacekeepers. currently, that mandate is under subscribe at approximately 2000

individuals. i think the mandate today as a force level of approximately 17,000, 700 individuals. certainly it would be desirable to see the full complement of the mandate met. it certainly would help to allow the monusco to carry out its responsibility. following, in the aftermath of the current situation in goma, in the eastern congo, i think i also made reference come in my statement, the fact that it would be useful for a re-examination of the

effectiveness of the force in whether the mandate and other responsibilities are being met, and whether there are adequate resources to meet them. but the force is under subscribe to buy approximately 2000 peop people. >> thank you, ambassador. the last question i will ask you just goes to this group, the outlet democratic sources national army for the liberation of uganda, which has been around for a while, and it goes to this issue of rebel groups increasingly joining forces beyond their national borders. this particular group has done some work with al-shabaab, and in a bombing for example, july 11, 2010, which killed i think over 70 people. and so you have this nexus, if

we look at the leader of this group, he got his training, i think he's a converted catholic -- [inaudible], who converted to radical islam probably while he was in sudan. but in sudan, he met osama bin laden, and through the initial work with these radical organizations, put together his own little vision of how he could create change, and created a lot of mayhem but none of that spectacular into al-shabaab began to give him the wherewithal. you know, to carry out attacks like this one. and i was going to ask you about that phenomenon. you have these organizations where partly, support network

comes from -- inheres ugandans in the operation as well, you know, people from throughout the region to join a cause, become sort of transnational. and begin working, in this case, they suspect him of working with al qaeda as well. ambassador carson, just anything you can do to bring me up to speed in terms of organizations like this that frankly, he is based right now in eastern cuba. i know we've got -- north cuba. we've got the same, the same phenomenon spreading, apparently. >> mr. chairman, three quick points on that. first of all, it is absolutely essential that all the states in the region agree and commit themselves not to harbor, not to support, not t