thank you. inucr raftilsureo nvtifrheic tribune", marda dunsky. [applause] [applause] [applause] >> thank you, john. let me just clarify that i am no longer working for the "chico tribune." but isn y d anu menit oderon and welcome. my name is marda dunsky. qadhafi pesided over libya from u 2 thostio al posciader. during his 43 years, qadhafi sted upon himself the title of guide, a the brother leader. he stered asip of atha pr ien fbsivil

and human rights, while at the same time, he asserted that his people were in control of their own country and destiny. beyond the borders of libya, gaddafi sponsored acts of terrorism. the most notorious was the bombing of pan am flight 103 in december 1988, which claimed the lives of 270 peple, including 189aens gaddafi succeeded in rehabilitating himself with the west at the turn of the 21st century by making reparations to the families and hoping his mass prmsi 3.ns adcti riise, rd the let standards of living and life expectancy of his people, using

oil revenues that allowed him to avoid the perils oforeign noelh r ngolnsae underway in neighboring tunisia and egypt, in mid- february 2011, libya exploded in its own revolutionary fervor. ocr , sty natoer, in air bombing campaign, and weons provided,they took gai,en u wlb an ecu du t e ms voonliy hilsum, an editor for channel four news, made four trips to libya, leading her to write the book that we are here to talk about today. anrmby tim voon ms. lindsey hilsum is familiar

to her audience for her appearances on the pbs news hour, cnn, and nbc. she has covered the major conflicts of the past two irkoov dis, el as the israeli-palestinian conflict and genocide the genocide in rwanda. in 2001, she reported from egypt as well aslbya. r joral honer reni from amnesty international. please join me in welcoming journalists and author, lindsey hilsum. [applause] [applause] liy, let's start with you talking about your reporting trips to the region last year. tell us about how you were able to navigate the w

urcoatite n, a ten o the people that you observed and interacted with them. i would just like to add, in addition to providing a hiy ibwhhenrivo done is we've and profiles of libyans, both who had been in the country all along, and some who have returned to libya , to help us better understand how the revolution had an impact on ordinary people. >> ank you very much for ming. chago isn azingplace, a waom tripoli.iev lng lester, the arab spring, i guess

that was the year i went into journalism for. it was the most extraordinary time. it was a time when histy was happening all aroundu. sldoww stisngen. this is a story which is only just starting. but i have been covering and think that covering the middle east for about 20 years. none of us knew when or how the lid of this would come of. ah sicide of a vegetable seller in tunisia. then libya started, egypt started and so forth. egypt was over in 18 as.t knibwe

lye revolution. the leader of tunisia, it was as he jack the state for e anthenow hi power. and then in egypt, the real pors haven't changed that much. in libya, everything was thrown up in the air. gaddafi was like e spider at anenre nothing. it is year zero in libya. let me go back to how i got here. i have been in egypt and then we went over th border to libya. i say we bec i m evn rtad a producer and with cameras present. we saw on the walls of the

border, a big sign in english thatd om fre iy e a unanhewo was perfect. he looked just like rambo. he had long brown hair, he had a bandanna, a vendor of bullets around them. he seemed to be our gud r which is in eastern months on 10 city. one of the things that they did in eastern country, was that they destroyed the statues of a green book. the greenback was gaddafi's mat os.

they desoyed them with pick axes and hammers. that was an incredible symbol. film his rds h.eman did s thte éthwae for 11 hours, and the line went up and down. eventually the line was cut. by then, he had done what h needed to do. heut up the pictures on his ce p ae al put ise hnm sifon interested in revolution in libya, call me at this number. now, that was very brave. that was very brave. his father had spent a lot of time in prison for opposing af hadn he said if you ride the camel, you can keep your head down. so they rode a camel.

gaddafi's forces gave up. qikl r pece initially, something incredibly positive libya was enclosed, it wasn't north korea, but it wasn't far of journalist that oen ed aningai. ma, wno lotoakfone these people were desperate to talk to us. they love having us there. they wanted to give us free accommodation, and it took us a long time tovithe driver onisonory r hisees "sandstorm", is that people were telling us stories for the first time. four decades of not being able to trust anyone outside the immediate family. four decadesof nres red, uerpe rcntil boadn tll ese tories.

as the revolution were on -- civil disobedience, fighting and so n, athy nto wre the book. i wasn't satisfied with ordinary reporting. i wanted to go back and tell stories, and that is what i have tried to do. >> okay. talk to us a little bit about what you we able t ro e pple o were ruled by him about gaddafi himself. he had a habit of presenting himself to the outside world in a ther flamboyantwy amsuy y familiar with looks of him on television or photos of him in the newpapers. it is not only how he expressed himself, but there was also a

stee. ndte about, and maybe you can share with us, his ideas about statecraft a how he ran the country or didn't run the country. domestically, and also, you know, how he sawhis role as an arab leadernrc n erb d. >>isy reg okthwoic of the gaddafi. one of the things th i have in the book is an archive of photographs, which were found in the ruins of some of the government buildings after he fell. you see these picture of him hewyar l he wasn 99 handsome, he was wearing a crisp army uniform. and he was somebody that gave bolivians lot of hope. they h been ruled by a king until then. he was known as the reluctant monarch, because hejdd itn'it i e tr was -- that people perceive their country to be

weak and fallen behind. upsets this handsome young officer. you look at the hotograph, he amees o m a flamboyant, sometimes he is wearing a kind of army uniform with medals over here. lehtnat least six world wars to get that many medals. sometimes he would wear these long robes and african robes. pictures of africa embroidered or printed on them. he h ts exaordinary see th hli i he believed in himself. and if he thought -- or he grew to believe that he was invisible. he saiwhen people k you libyans eoe,oes

lebanon, liberia, but now they say gaddafi. i have made you famou this guy, who was something of a joke on the world stage, they inyashumiliated byhis prsen f h d't represent them in any way. gahos,thr shows.you and me, thy one of my favorite lines in their shows was gadfi, yre thwindhis ek by hen'li state. he pretended that the state was run by t people.

ersawonvntn y back. he had his own channels as well, the revolutionary committees. his family. as wel. gaddafi's brother-in-law was doing something completely different with the leadership there. so nobody ever quite new where they were. that was part of is best pr of t plawas at ny ldr w tar they didn't even know what it was. that was because they normally calculate the calendar from the death of the profit. he decided that he was going to calculated from the birth of the it

li cda ill be different. and he chang the names of july and august. for quite a wile, libyans did not know what day it was. that is a whimsical way of ruli, whh ithinng op then there was the brutality, quite the extraordinary brutality as well. let me tell you about the brutality. th is such aey thing. wh i to t ci, s o te wall -- the center of the revolution -- all these pictures of men. i asked who they were. i was told that they were the martyrs. asked what was that it was a prison massacre. an el se dnnoou before. this is the signature atrocity

of the gaddafi machine. don't thinmany of us kn abi. e of thin iprof hbo hha two eyewitnesses to this massacre. it is the first time that this story has been told freel in the '90s, there were a lot of opponents of gaddafi, and they tended to beid ipoli. people were dying of tb and starvation. some of the prisoners, most of who were sick, brighton for theyhoug thadeo negotiate. what happened was that they were herded into a courtyard, and soldiers were positioned on the of, in 1270 n we gued 12 men.dbod.

it took three or four hours, 11:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. on june 28, 1996. went to thepio,o hv a look. then i met this gentleman there and he told me the story. nineteen years -- he spent 19 years in prison. he tld me how he looked out of his cell window and saw the laws withbodcourtyardturnged ihaut s, this is obviously something very important. if i didn't understand this, i couldn't understand about libya. i asked if i could meet some of e victims families. and he said es. steed ioomai exino eal people. the room may be a quarter size of this term, there were about 15r 20 women on the side.

the same number of men on the other side. phraof hndem werhodup ot some person that they have lost. they were completely silenced. the atmosphere was extraordinary. an old man came forward to tell his story. a small guy, rialya hed as brother-in-law. and we used to go up to tripoli every couple of months to take in food an toiletries. the guards would say you can't see him, but leave the stuff we tfae tuswa dead. >> i cannot believe that. fourteen years. i have been in lots of countries that pple disappear and people ha.oured and terrible thin whtheie actually keeps the families living in hope for

14 years when their relatives are long dead. that really aunted me and it th cindwyteunts me i atrocity has been dealt with, was at the center of people's hatred of gaddafi. they have tried rising against him before, and they have failed. it was certainly tunisia a egypt which ou rir h things. it was this episode that had been in the people's hearts since 1996. it culd never forgive him for th. theeen afi uty represon. they are trademarks of many, if not all, dictators. at the same time, it is not widely known or written about in

th,a e, ioin noduction, there were some objective, measurable, improvements in certain standards of living during the 42 year thtgddafi wain per. exe, lacte fm 1%tvhi period. the life expectancy of libyans increased from 57 years to 77 years. he provided a system of education and housing assistance. my question is, as you are traveling the country, and perhaps libyans fetfree t k utad iayhe n'lte red nont kndg or appreciation of these factors, what was the brutality

and oppression of hs rule so overshadowing ofng at e r oral reonplms >>ta ce he did have some support. i met one woman who worked for him. she always called him the guy. was criicde e aded. shn'avl e stories. i said what about this, and she said oh, that was his brother-in-law. she said it wasn't im. of cre,omeeoplenefed hul lo lnsu , or him -- they did support them at the beginning. and he did all those things you talked about. but then things changed. one of the hings he did was he kick offheil boom in the 1970 he theirstersoto ay

heteilpes re gngug i is. we can't get more pro-^ profits, then you guys can leave. he didn't blink. they blinked. cr i 1970s.frrunnro thil they found oil in 1958, they were only just beginning to work with it. most of all, thwereomad itas aeroop th gaddafi, they had this huge injection of cash. he did increase the age at which children would leave school and so on. i intf anple eied wh ou i met this gentleman in tripoli. he is the guy who makes the

copper happens. he bangs themo. ol hn9,led gaddafi. he said we would be like egypt. and he went running ou and hetth th was libya's chance to enter the modern world. that is exactly what happened. and i asked what made him change his mind. he said in the 70s he would go home from work and people would say don't go down that seet anmeone was singing. then one day, he swlind grd aeed

tinefthe most gruesome wars, the war in czechoslovakia. if it is something that libya does not need,i t. e le bve me. so thismoney, which was originally spent on health care and education was being spent on wars and terrorism. livingston like that. i think that many of the people whoaegall sport him.. they were disppoined. so, i,tremply this optional. when money started to come back and read it there was a period of sanctions, you know, a all

the companies were run by his sons. one ofte n he cented himself as a very good soccer player. he paid an italian team so that he could play. normally, those teams play watoy.ns to gettoly.t gysaue as oy oer player you could research them by name. anybody else had to be refeed to by number. nobody was allowed to bemore famous than gaddafi and his paularocceeaangrwith un had their clubhouse bulldoze and their fan club leaders put in prison. those kinds of things, indian, overshadowed any good that gaddafhad ne iearly ars. uryoepngps a t-

observation of the execution and the effects of the nato involvement in the country. in which the united states, britain, and france were at the fofront. you ll u andou write ouish ok l t tt political considerations that went into the nato decision to get involved. i believe you wrote that it was preceded by a vote by the arab league, requesting, and also on lot of people's minds.sohihaa if you could perhaps give us your view. why did natondopportune to bome volv ib n to date, done the same in syria? >> gaddafiidn't have many friends left by the end. he had some friends in africa beuse he had quite a few

african states that he onsod. hie ab ldeeaha atbee a really annoying habit of trying to assassinate him. it just doesn't go dwn well, you know? [laughter] they were more than happy to get rid of him. he was seen as an embarrassment fonnt, ewhole regin. apl issues. some think it is all becauseof oil, and it is to some extent, but there were other issues. hersry tbefriendad there was a guy in benghazi at the tm, country fell to the rebels very quickly, and the

rest do not. the rebels tried to go up the road to take tripoli and the others from gaddafi's nwavte t they are probably the most useless guerrilla army i have ever come cries across. they were rubbish. they were mostly teacherand doctors and things like that. they had never picked up weapons before. th didn'know how to fire them. i ca acss b wod a bit is missing from my weapon. i said which bit is that? i said so what are you going to do and he saidi will wait until the bitcm. hed m 17. then i heard myself say, does your mother know you are here? [laughter] he said yes, and she's very proud of me. i said she won't bevry

oui nobtt thitsiro y thernot great. they were getting pushed back down towards and hanlon said he would fihtouseyu. after people said that he was prepared to die as a martyr, he w ingttru tht he meant it. i think if the intervention hadn't come, it would've been a huge refugee exodus to egypt. i think he would probably have a war going on to this a

then, of course, libya is so mp its a all puln t mypole sde i the south end of this coast roads, all the main cities along the coast roads. the main fighting was along the coast roads as well. militarily, it was qui simple. didt ha any rends ofsedis apply. another thing it is a homogenous society as well. thctn struggle.pngupun they have support from christians. 70% rule by minority. gnm, bashar al-assad, has

the support of iran. and the opposition, has the support of saudi arabia and other gulf untries. its shaping up into a real da tat llhe is ag read also, the russians. russians allow that security council with libya they have no great love for gaddafi, but, it went through to protect civilians, notchange the rgme. wast too far. and they are not going to be fooled again and let that happen again. they are not going to let the western countries go in and start changing regimes. that is not the way the world anou eheun syria, which is just hideous. children are being murdered, civilians are being killed everyday. there are massacres all the

time. sectariastrife is increasing. e daer saeng bils o sides. and yet, western intervention, it made things even worse. itt s the limits and the responsibilities to protect and the limits and teria e sa ogan rtawrin syria. >> i would like to ask one more question, and then we will take questions from the audience. this goes back to your thoughts on what lies ahead in the immediate future for libya. next month, if this go according to pan, the ille eioi bas naal conference, and that

conference will appoint a prime minster, cabinet, and a constitutional -- i'm sorry, a constituent authority. orftaoiobe akhwng which will then be put to a referendum. if it passes, within short order, there will be a general election, so all of these officials can become elected by ths theory. >> it sounds good, doesn't it? >> going back to what you said about this being year zero for libya, what is your sense, of ursewe a notsking fo op, whsyu soofehallenges and difficulties that lie ahead. for the libyan state and libyan people.

>> well, you don't go from a monarchyadatop thbyha no tradition of democracy. they have never had a proper election, neither under the king or under gaddafi. all of this is e. gome ryaken this is a revolution of youth. they are all young people out there. the government is really made up of old men. some of them are academics and businesspo awyngke . oeme i exile. the prime minister was a professor of engineering at michigan state university. the boys who picked up gns thon'tant laythei bee celsucl stably, and they say why should

we. they have never had this their whole lives. iatyrno . u t ens chaos. there were also people whowere gaddafi loyalists. different militia groups in different times. alt hn remes fight eah e negative side. on the other hand, there is very good voter reistration. 2.5 miion people are registered to vote. some of the towns have had their cal eltionalready. people are mad for o aeaken a e erfo it. they manage to get oil and gas production up to where it was ewar levels. all of that is quite prosperous.

one teopl sd at rprm ha h a live gaddafi in our heads. >> i thought that was such a great way of putting it. it is not there in the political culture. that is one issue. there are peple who want mis n po ntlaat ata r e. e secular -- people are not used to compromising. it's the same thing about women. women participated in the revolution, they were not there fitingbuttewe running hospitals and there were women

spies. i have a story in here about a ung woman who had her headscarf. nonecek e and checked wherthe weapons were. she ended up in the tension. she had a pretty bad time. you will have to buy the book to find out about it. [laughter] now,ome of the men eaying woyokegomen now, some women are saying, no. one of the women i talk about say to her, you women don't have the experience to take part in politics and she saioy t have the leadership either. some of these tensions are rooted in libyan society. and useyd i

their leader had upset them. suenlytheris aun f guys with grenades on the runway. well, it doesn't look good. all of these -- it i all very fraught. they have the opportunity toet it right. as han beingsyu screwed up, don't they? [laughter] >> okay. we have five minutes, and i am sure that lindsay would be happy to entertain your questions. yes, sir. aawaae viinteresti hat sada coctua. instn upf words from either of you. is that just a matter of having a critical mass, or is it a

fundamental difference? >> it is a fundamental difference. bally,audirabihasa n sunni population. they have had demonstrations, because they are very suppressed. those demonstrations he been put down. dos ak sthon spread. they have a sunni population and not one quarter has been given. the same weekend that nato intervened in iteui wanted to make sure that those people did not overthrow their government. the gulf states are extremely hard off, and there's no way it's going to happen. that is what they say. are ere y moqeti

>> yes? >> in libya, ther were a number of high-profile journalists that were killed. congseesev?ak of hdnrof >>, s ealy er ree my colleagues, they were killed in libya. chris and tim were in ms. rodda. it was under sige n ba it was shelled by gaddafi. they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. istiorngs mb. e , governments know what's going on. they know that we are trying to uncover human rights abuses. pariwa my rienandhe

edut ms ago. we think she was targeted by government forces. her report, her last report, it s fr hes. gomeasriabout how the lire il wgotug she wrote about the widows anviieshd rere the widows --itst e. shidh lifor. >> are there any other questions? okay, well you'd like to thank you for coming today,