doc? out there have evolved as good now, let's change i'm caitlin polantz at the federal court in washington. and this is cnn just about 9:00 p.m. here in new york, fastening day 14 of the trump hush money criminal trial. now, in the book, stormy daniels ramped up two days on the stand, managing to turn them portion of defense cross-examination aimed at undermining her credibility

into some embarrassing moments for the former president. at one point saying that if she were making up her story about sex with donald trump, quote, i would have written it to be a lot better today. also saw testimony from trump organization bookkeeper about how closely he monitors the checks he writes detailing the attention he paid two amounts considerably smaller than $35,000 checks. he wrote to michael cohen the day ended with judge juan merchan and rejecting another trump motion for mistrial and denying his request to modify the gag order. he is under so we can talk about stormy daniels and capping it all off. stormy daniels tweet this evening saying this about the former president, quote, real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand in court oh, wait. never mind. back of the panel joining us conservative lawyer george conway, who was in court today what were your takeaways on my takeaway. was that the continued cross-examination of stormy daniels was a complete disaster and a fiasco for the defense. i mean as a rebuttal,

they didn't need to go to just was just it just went on and on and didn't they didn't have anything. honore. you got to confine crosses to basically a few short leinz of stuff that's good. >> they didn't do that. >> i think what happened was they had a day off and necklaces of very good lawyer by reputation. i can even tell just by the way, she conducted as she knows, how to cross-examine a witness and knows how to ask questions but she was she's her client is a narcissistic sociopath and who is obsessed with proving the lie, that he didn't have anything to do with stormy daniels. and so they went off on this whole tangent on, but basically it doesn't it done in a lot. the defense's position should be it doesn't really matter whether that happened or not, because even if it wears extortion money you know if it was extortion money, it still could be a crime. but when trying to prove something that happened didn't happen is

just it's just counterproducti ve and it was it just got to the point of ridiculousness where she's asking a stormy about basically a map of south lake tahoe, nevada to figure out whether or not she was walking in or healed one block or two, where she took a cab. >> it was she just garbage and it was embarrassing. and to the point where, you know, if you, control the width by keeping your cross simple and short, you can control the witness but the longer you go, the more the witness can pop off at you. and this woman is way smarter than knockout necklaces, chunk client, and she got some really good. i thought i saw jurors at some point trying to do what i was trying to do, which were suppressing laughter at some at some of the shots that store they got into got into the record. it was just it was just a complete waste of time. the good news for the defense is that's not what this case is going to be about in the at the end of the day the process of

defense made the mistake, also a putting this all into public, they could have just stipulated to. we're not going to contest what happened yet in south lake tahoe, and we're just going to focus the jury in on the fact of whether or not there is proof that donald trump new about the records that we claim were for the prosecution claims were falsified. now, let's leave apart the fact that he signed some of this stuff with a backup next to it and, you what carefully read it. it was $35,000 to his lawyers, hadn't really done that much. four let's leave that aside. >> that's what this issue that if he gets off, that's how he's going to get off by by leaving this issue open about what happened in that hotel room they invited the prosecution to dump all this stuff in the record, then they fail to object to a lot of some of the stuff that should have they should have objected to like the bit about whether or not he wore a condom. >> let me the judge said that a he didn't think that should have gotten it, but there was no objection. thing about the out of money and what how closely he pays attention to that. it didn't get anywhere near as much attention as the stormy daniels

cross-examination, but madeline western out who got on the stand and was the last witness today, and she'll be back on the stand tomorrow morning. she was trump's gatekeeper inside the white house and it basically was the liaison who was his executive assistant at trump organization, trump tower. they trained her of how to basically do that out of the white house. and there was one moment that the prosecution clearly brought up where there was an email between her and rhona graff, trump's assistant here in trump tower about buying a frame a frame from tiffany's next door because they didn't have any empty ones for a picture of trump's mother. they wanted to put and rhona graff responded in the email and said, okay, but the frames are about $650 with a 10% discount. can you check with them if that's how much he wants to spend? this is while donald trump is the president of the united states of america, and he was rhona, who knows him better than anyone, essentially was still checking to see if that was too much money on eight for him to spend on a frame and for her to expense it. and i think that is where we're going to see this go tomorrow that they are trying to get to the fact that he was a penny pinch or any

paid attention to where every cent went and we pay this guy $35,000 a month and he has a reputation around this town of stiffing law firms like you could, you could, you can make a long list on ellie's notepad. there the recording that michael cohen secretly taped of his client trump, does seem interested in the details of payments. >> i mean, he's talking about in cash, yet can we do can we do it in catch shirts? let me ask you this question. >> is it seems to me that there is a lot of evidence that trump in general was very scrupulous about how he was spending his money. and in general, looked at documents very carefully before he signed them. >> but there's not any evidence specifically that he looked at these documents. >> do you think that's enough for it let me there is evidence he signed those checks with the backup, that's not evidence that that's not are they separate georgie evidence? that

is. it's clear how you feel about president trump. okay. i don't have a feeling one way or the other. i'm looking this as a trial attorney. okay. and i'm looking at it as objectively as i can as a form of prosecutor and as current criminal defense attorney what there's a big difference. yes, there's evidence that donald trump sayyed the checks. i've said that that's not the crime there's kaitlan. your point about the council told on the counter checks europe, your point about the frame. >> it's clear that he watches his money but that's not the crime. >> it's that second leap of how does it then get written down back in new york city where's it listed? how is it listed? is it listed as reimbursements to michael cohen or is it legal fetal michael cohen. there has been no proof whatsoever that donald trump had anything to do with how it's listed on the ledger in trump tower? can i tried to reframe this for a second and i'll pose a question to you, george.

>> if the prosecution stands up tomorrow and says, your honor, at this point, we rest. can they possibly when they would have to dismiss the case not necessarily. >> am i think there's enough circumstantial evidence that they could refer it, but they need he to put some more on why i wanted just so you know it would be i agree with that. i think if the prosecution rested tomorrow, it doesn't go to the jury. so they need something from michael cohen, right? yeah. they're going to need what do you think they need from michael cohen? basically is going to explain the missing link that he needs to a meeting in the oval office in 2018 where they basically discuss how to do this. and i think and i think they're going to do across on michael that is going to attempt to be brutal the way they attempted to brutalize stormy daniels today. and a lot of people have low expectations for that. but the fact that matter is, given everything that they have pointed to so far from the commencement of the hush of the catch-and-kill scheme to the end everything everything like just fell off my mic just hold it up what michael has been is going to say has basically been pre

corroborated. so it's going to be that but it is going to be the key moment. >> i think that's exactly right, and that bridges the gap, but i think we're seeing here which is there has to be that last link and michael cohen's going to say it's that mean? eating in the oval office in 2017, we're going to hear about they actually set the foundation for that today because the woman who testified had an email, so showing that this meeting was happening doesn't tell us what's what was said, but the jury knows that meeting happened to michael cohen's testimony about that. >> i'm sorry. go ahead and ask this is going to be a dumb question, but the fact that these payments for split up over the course of a year to me seems like one of the most fishy elements of this whole scheme if he were just going to reimburse michael cohen, he could have just written a check that money was there. >> but the fact that they split it up, it seems to strongly suggest they were trying to make it seem like something that it was not i've retainer that was being paid over the course of a long period of time. right. and the gross up like, well, yeah, i mean i mean, you got regardless of the amount, the means to me, i

think the prosecution hasn't explained this or touched on this, but that seems strongly suggestive of a scheme to make it seem like something and that it was not. >> and that's exactly the point. it's not enough for the prosecution to show donald trump sign these checks. he knew they were intended to reimburse michael cohen for the hush money payments. they have to show that this was part of an effort to falsify, to falsely structure these labels in the pull down menu as lawyer fees, attorney fees in order to cover up the fact that there really but how does michael cohen help on that question? >> well, look at the end of the day what's a reasonable doubt? >> a reasonable doubt has to be that there has to be some plausible alternative explanation for all these things that happened. >> and at the end of the day, it's going to be i think it's really hard for the jury to believe that donald trump didn't know that these payments were for george at the end of the day? >> yeah. >> an experienced lawyer view magnitude. you know what you would save if you would try

this case, you know what you would say. the jury, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, one of the luckiest juries around because you got to meet mr. reasonable doubt, yeah. so i'm walking here. you take the stand. if there's any hey, human being on the planet earth, that should be his pictures should be net to the definition, reasonable doubt. it's michael cohen. and if you do the cross-examined mike, why? >> hi, are being a fraud, i can't show the posted tendency just the defendants credibility, if no, as he takes the stand is not on trial because he not because he's been saying all sorts of stuff to show any line in lying and it always no, no, no, but might is all they're not going to

destroy his kelvin. >> everybody is. >> so guys spent this was an otoscope. everyone should know that's really up this really intellectual debate that we're having. but can i ask you a question about the michael cohen thing because we have heard every thing about his credibility. we will when he takes the stand, which we expect next week, madeline western is there to testify today and tomorrow about a meeting where there's an email. she's asking for michael cohen descended social security numbers, date of birth, everything you need to get into the white house there's the date of when that meeting is. we actually have this soundbite of michael cohen when he's testifying before the house oversight committee in 2018 about that meeting at the white house. and essentially what happened so picture this scene in february of 20171 month into his presidency i'm visiting president trump in the oval office for the first time. >> and it's truly awe, inspiring. he's showing me all around and pointing to

different paintings. and he says to me something to the effect of don't worry michael, you're january and february reimbursement checks are coming. they were fedexed from new york and it takes a while for that to get through the white house system. as he promised, i received the first check for the reimbursement of $70,000 not long thereafter okay. so we know that the meetings setup, we have someone who is testifying about the fedex and how that worked. and you have michael cohen testifying that. so it's not like it's just his word alone. there is other caitlin prove is that he got checks for michael okay. i mean, when i hayes. allowed to agree reimburse the prove that donald trump donald trump confirmed that he was fully aware it was being written what the crime yeah. but that's been real number again my other side of tables doing the perfect defense lawyer thing, which is basically a chop up all bit by

bit. >> we're making that's entirely fair because i mean, yes, i think it is quite it's going to be very clear to the jury that these this money was a reimbursement. it wasn't a legal fee. >> but the corporate records being falsified, how do you tie trump to the corporate records being falsified? that i think is still problematic because he knew that's what that's what was going on. that it was being done on his behalf, that he signing these things that say that their legal reimburses he knew and he's getting and it's grossed up, but he could you think he didn't figure out that? wait a minute? this was $130,000 and i'm writing checks for $35,000 a month. i mean, he's a dumb guy, but he's not as michael cohen publicly said, that trump knew that these that it was being filed as legal expense. not that i'm aware of. michael cohen has publicly said 1 million times that trump is guilty, as can be. >> and i think this is important when we're talking about this meeting, right? but but he hasn't gotten to the

debt level that legal specimen, but he's at a podcast is written a book called revenge. you would think if that was right, something he was going to tell that's fine, too. he would have mentioned and this is exactly the point we're going to get into a meeting here. we know the meeting happened. there's documentation of that, but what happened and what was said is going to entirely come down to michael cohen's word. and it's really not a question for the jury of who's a bigger liar? michael cohen or donald trump prosecutors have the burden. and if the jury hears michael cohen's account of what happened including what he just said there and decides we don't trust this guy beyond a reasonable doubt. there's no number on it, but a very high standard, then they have to write to say not guilty. i think it's not a trump versus cohen. it's do we trust cohen to that level of reasonable? >> i think arthur is making a good point about the drop-down menu but i still have questions about whether that's really the standard barrett. i mean, if if if there are kingpins who are convicted of crimes that involve things that they don't physically have to do themselves do they have to do the drop-down menu themselves to be guilty of that night. so i guess where do we go? what is

between doing the drop-down menu yourself and what the prosecutors would he have known that there's a limited whether you notice it's a drop-down menu, but there's a limited number of ways to code and expense. i mean, if he's been a penny pinch and monitored expenses and fedex packages. what do you have known? oh, yeah. there's six things you can code it as legal legal issue. lead prosecutor. >> number one, the press you got to prove that but one one thing anderson there's another piece of this. it's not just a bookkeeping. they then have to prove beyond a reasonable holdout it was done to commit another crime. >> and we haven't what evidence is there been so far articulating what crime that is allegedly when i was in quarternary heard they're going to call a federal election law expert or maybe a state election law expert. >> so there's the bookkeeping products and then there's the next ship hello, isn't that what it is? >> but it's but no, because came out of his own money? >> no. no no other federal

election campaign act. >> it would be illegal if i were running if i were running for something or other and i wanted to contribute money to my campaign and kaitlan fronted the money and then i reimbursed her and then i didn't disclose it. i'd go to jail. that's a violation and that's a violation. it's not hard. >> george conway, it's good to have you. thank you. coming up next more from the full trial transcript just out also, in light of all we've just been saying in so many ways about myself cohen here would he is saying for himself tonight about the prospect of taking the stand and later former deputy assistant attorney general, harry litman joined us. his thoughts from his time in court today the myth has to be re-imagined it was theater. >> you didn't know whether you were next? >> they were both tied up? >> yeah. yeah. i was called in and they saw what turned out to be the biggest heist in history he went from gold medal winning icon to a pariah would really

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daniels finished testifying the prosecution saying they won't be calling karen mcdougal, that leaves michael cohen is perhaps the last and biggest name prosecution witness, delta calm. >> speaking today on the midas touch law podcast, cohen said he expects it to be called to the san next week and sounded happy to testify i'm, kinda looking forward to it because again, can be finished with something unless you started, right. it's kinda like an entrepreneurial mindset. you can be in, in, unless you willing to get in it. and so there we go sooner or this thing starts sooner, this thing finishes and that way i can yeah, this too shall pass will be looking ahead to that until the moment comes and no doubt, looking back on it for a long time as well, right now, john berman is back with more from the proceedings today. you guys were talking about how there has been a lot of evidence and a lot of testimony about how closely donald trump looks at finances, looks at things about

money and madeline western out who was his white house assistant gatekeeper, was asked about an exchange that she had over an invoice they came in front of her and this is the testimony from the prosecutor, rebecca mangold, asking the questions, what's the total amount of the invoice west or has says $6,974 mangled says looking at how the handwriting towards the top, do you know who's handwriting that is? what drives says? i believe that's rhona graff's. that's trump's organization assistant mangle says, can you read what's written in ms grass writing and then muster, he says, dear mr. president, if winged which is a golf club in western new york, will allow me to suspend your membership for for eight years. do you want me to look into it or do you want me to continue paying annual dues and the food minimum? i believe that's just rg the initials. do you see the handwriting below that western house says yes. who says that was their house says that's the president. mangles says, do you know what type of pen was used for the president's

handwriting? was her house says it looks to be a sharpie. we for sharpie all over the testimony so far, that mangel said that's what's written below the note and mr. trump's handwriting, west or how it says, hey, mangold says is their handwriting something else written in the president's and then west are he says, yes, asap. okay. in other words, yes. pay the $6,000 dues to winged foot asap. >> okay. >> so again, this is donald trump being paying very close attention to it. his golf dues with the food privileges, and they showed the document in the courtroom. it actually said yes pay. okay. yeah. it'd been making clear one, she's checking. do still want to pay this membership while you're president of the united states. and he says yes, but then also it's when madeline was drought testifies about the other financial conversation, what the frame that she had. and so i don't know where they're going with this tomorrow. it's going to be much more about michael cohen and his appearances at the white else i assume, but they aren't clearly trying to get it. what they could even see from rhona graff's emails and her concern

about his spending are the urine the court for the beginning thinking of her testimony, madeline, what did you think of her while and they've the first question was, are you here because you want to be here, are you here on subpoena? and she made it clear that she was there unto subpoena. >> and it was schumann's pier to be particularly nervous. it would very simple questions was about fedex is and how the checks went back and forth. and if there was one missing and she made it clear there were checks, he refused to sign are not told her they just would go come back to our unsigned. my understanding was in the afternoon. she was very gracious talk it's a lot about him and millennia or at least touched upon and how he would call her and he was she paints a picture of him being a doting husband, which i don't really know if that's an accurate statement, but that's what she said. how before you he was going on marine one, he would call are and look out the window and wave. and then she just broke out crying, i think because it looked that witnessed. we've spoken about this that witness stand is i

didn't testimony one time against a client who took a phone number and put it on my name. so i read representing him awhile and representing him. this is all public record. while representing him, he takes out a phone number and puts it on the arthur aidala and he's making like criminal calls. that was it. my name and i had to go and testify against my own client and federal court, which i tried. no. no. what i was really nervous. i have no problem in many to you. >> i was really hard test you're testifying. get someone who clearly she's fond of, and you look around that room and it's packed with people. yeah. it's emotion. >> this is not actually relevant to this particular case, but but it is interesting to me that bringing up millennia and the family, i mean, madeline was fired from the white house because she was trashing other members of the trump family to the media when at a dinner. so the baggage and one of the reasons she feels so bad is because as she's sad publicly, she feels bad that

she had a moment of poor judgment. and in the process said a lot of bad things about the trump family. now, with trump's sitting in front of her she had an opportunity. it looks like she took it to say some nice things about trump, to say some nice things about his relationship with his wife and so on and so forth but i'm just what i'm so interested in about these financial things is they have done a great job of showing how meticulous trump is about even small expenditures from someone who claims to be a billionaire. >> but the thing that i keep coming back to is did trump know how these expenditures were characterized on the corporate records because that's the crime in this case. and that's not covered by that testimony. >> there's nothing in any and i kinda stack of transcripts oh, my office like it's tall as i am, which is six, four another yes to that. but what you do see is what they're leading up to, which is michael

cohen who is going to have to answer to all this. and even in the mandolin western had testimony it was setting the table for michael cohen. there's the exchange you showed his testimony before congress, but they talk about an email exchange that western house had with cohen prior to this february 2017 meeting, the prosecutor says, what's the subject line of this email? and this is an email t.h. with michael cohen westinghouse says, wednesday meeting, man the gold. can you please read the content of the email to the jury? was her out says yes michael working firm for four 30 on wednesday. what i need from you is the following full names and appears on your id, date of birth, social security number, us citizen, yes or no, border us, yes or no. current city and state of residence? thanks. madeline prosecutor says, do you recall why you were sending this email? and then westeros as mr. cohen was coming into meet with the president mangold says, do you recall seeing him when he came to visit? western says not specifically. mangold says, did this visit ultimately occur west or house says, yes. >> so so much much of what the

prosecution has been doing over the last three weeks is pre corroborating michael cohen when he gets on that stand, they want the jury to think, oh, i remember this. i recognize this. we saw a document about this. we heard another piece of testimony about this, even if it's a small thing like this, now they know, yes, that meeting absolutely happens. so when michael cohen gets up and says, what what happened in that eating they'll go okay, at least he's not completely fabricating that there was an oval office meeting we used to call an oak tree corroboration as prosecutors, meaning if there's a murder scene and someone mentioned oh, yeah, it was next to an oak tree. i don't go take a photo of the oak tree. it doesn't prove that the murder happened but it can help support your witnesses just on a small detail. it can help prop them up. that's what they're bracing for i think it's gonna come down to when michael gone because i agree with everything he's saying, at least saying it's going to come down to like, honestly, three sentences in that meeting so because just to be clear, it's going to be i think it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. >> he's tight with money. he signed those checks. he knew

what where they were going to, what they were four it's going to come down to michael collins and i said to him, i'm just going to register them as legal expenses and not for real. okay. and trump. will say trump nodded on trump said okay. and then it'll say, and by the way, we're doing this, we don't forget we did this. so that you would win the election or it's going to come down to like sentences, not whether the checks resign. i immediately to plan that's unfair. there's a whole universe of witten there's more to it than just like what you made the point a minute ago. so it wasn't michael cohen putting in the writing down, right. but what what bobby said was how high or how low, right? does the hierarchy have to be? i think if trump just says file it as legal expenses, even though it's not i think that's enough that someone else he directs someone else to do. >> it seems to me that the prosecution has to establish why didn't they do it the other way, right. like, what is the other way? and why didn't they choose that path? to me?

the most obvious other way is just it's to give michael cohen the money, say that it was a reimbursement for anything it literally could be for anything they didn't do it that way. the question is, why that question has not been answered by the prosecution. in addition to them not answering the question of not only why did they do it that way, but did trump recognized that there was a choice made about how to do it, and that they chose the illegal way essentially john berman, thanks very much coming up another moment from the transcript this time from judge merchan and his final words to the former president's attorneys about how they opened the door to stormy daniels detailed account of her time with donald trump from friends coming over to mom's coming over so many ways to save life ready, while it happy. but 3605 by whole foods market these delicious pistachios are

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custom gear, get started today at i melies nonna in washington and this is cnn henry, the judge's final word from that exchange with the defense, which ended today's hearing to a why he said prosecutors had a right to have stormy daniels testified about an alleged sexual encounter with the former president back in 2006,

quoting from judge merchan and the fact that you went after her right on opening statements attacking whether attacking your claim that they had never had sex, you didn't attack that there was a falsification of business records. you didn't attack any of the other elements of the offense you said my client denies that there was ever a sexual encounter. again, as i said before, right off the bat at that puts your client's word against ms daniels word and that in my mind, allows the people to do what they can to rehabilitate her and to corroborate her story. your motion for mistrial is denied joining us now is former us attorney, deputy assistant attorney general, harry litman has been in the courtroom during the trial. what was the dynamic life between the judge? judge and the defense team in those tanno 15 minutes? >> yeah. accord. >> it was not like a standard legal argument. >> it wasn't loci and academic bristled and there was a sort of dynamism to it that you don't normally have, which by the way, he has not in previous

messages to the defense table when i was there last week, he he said to todd blanche, that was the day after trump had claimed that he wasn't allowed to testify in a very calm way. he said, let me just maybe your client is missing forum. let me remind him it's his total legal right. he was bending over backwards to become this is a different tenor i think that's right. >> it's not as if he was haranguing him, but it was definitely very sort of pitch tie in he attacked the professionalism of nicholls. he said, i can't trust blanche, but it was if he let them both speak their piece and then it was almost as if you'd already crafted an opinion that he could do. he said i'd gone back and read the transcripts you're wrong about this, but he really it was fairly blistering and he wasn't simply denying on the merits, but actually a sailing though for trying to think did

not objecting more by the defense was a misstep by the trump team for sure. >> and it was one of the things he actually cited.& again, i mean, this was the point that seem to have no answer. they've made this probably because trump insists on it. >> the big dispute. >> was there any sex at all and when they do that and opening merchan's point was, that means all these messy details as they called them. the other ones messy details are credibility for for someone in stormy daniels is positioned. in other words, you have to let her explain the jury can evaluate overall the truth of the story that's been so put at what was your perception of the cross-examination by nicholas? >> yeah. all in all i thought it was not so effective. you really look for control & christmas on cross and not only did she take a lot of she landed a couple of jabs, but again, because of this dynamic

that they've said it never happened, she needed a knockout plants and came nowhere near that. i thought. and then i i think was a little over aggressive and the jury perceived and in particular, when she basically implied since you're a porn star you how could you possibly be cowed by a 60 billionaire looming over you? it seemed almost insulting in that way. so i thought that she took a lot of chant lead, whether can allot and got got hit with it and her very last question isn't it a fact that you are making no and that's the end. so as opposed to sort of leading the jury to think that result in its own, she went for broke a lot and it was a mistake or you've been in the courtroom who's winning? what the de when? because the basic dynamic they have really from pecker a very good choice for starters drawn the whole

narrative we had today it was one of five pretty big day-to-day. the you normally one, two things happen in accord, thereby five or six pretty big things. and one of them, a lot of people didn't even notice, but came in through stormy. his admission in the stormy suit that he did in fact reimburse cohen, right. so i mean, that's a pretty big one. where did they go from here the weisselberg writing. >> so weisselberg & cohen do it together. >> they were they freelancing the basic story i think is straw there may be technical details and as you know, a couple of lawyers on the jury about stitching up the precise intent with some of the precise 34 pieces of paper they always had that problem. but the bottom of the narrative, in part because of the stakes they've drawn in never happened with stormy and emphasizing that i think the de eight winning i mean, i should know why isn't allen weisselberg testified a couple of minutes won. >> one, he's in prison but if

someone is, you can put somebody bring someone, in. >> i know what happens in movies, but you don't bring a guy in and he gets up in front of the jury, says, i take the fifth and they don't know what he's going to say if it's clear you all by myself, like so he's not going to turn to the top donald trump knew nothing about this. i was the bookkeeper for 35 whatever in 40 years, i was the one who classified it that way. that's why he wouldn't be a special problem. >> they have withdrawn graff, who they went through quickly, keith schiller, are we going to see him? he comes in a lot today. there are some people who are super loyal to trump and they are shying away from the defense call weisselberg. >> sure. well, they might talk about a cross-examination, but he would also probably take the fifth again, regardless of who calls him he doesn't unless you want to meet from a solid and then get indicted again, it's i yes, that's possible. >> but i it seems like if you

were going to take the fifth in this subject, you are going to take the fifth in this subject, but maybe not, maybe not on one useless do he's not on the defense wit. looked at defense hasn't called anyone yet and they don't have to have someone on their witness was the only thing i want to say about stormy's cross-examinati on. >> first of all, jeffrey mentioned this a long time ago i do think they're trying to please trump the lawyers are and that's a balancing act, but you gotta guy play and you'll lot of money to be his lawyer and he wants it out there that that did not happen. susan nechele leading with her chin, did put up a piece of paper saying you signed a document saying you never had sex with donald trump, right yes, i did. so that was a lie, right? right so there was right. but the lie they need is that whole story is concocted. that's the thing because i agree with you, but i think normally even with a very big shock lawyers say, here's how it's going to be you shut up now and listen to me. that's what his phone would do.

>> what do you do you've represented some big egos, big personalities. >> i'm sure there's been times bank, you back that bag. i mean, i you back i'm like, listen, bro, are you a long time? you got to trust me on this and we can talk to i mean, i've thought it will talk to three other lawyers if they disagree with me, we'll do it your way. okay. but so several times on tuesday, trump was nudging susan nechele has to get up an object and we saw or do it at least twice after he nudged her. and today, the whole criticism from the judge was, why didn't you object more? i mean, it was trump was obviously clearly was a mistake. look, we all make we always talk about trump influencing his attorneys and trust me, he does and its incredibly difficult to be at trump attorney. we've talked to many of the former ones, but but he was the one urging her to object more. she was not objecting more and maybe what ellie said before. >> it also like, you don't wanna make it look like you're hiding from the jury like, oh, my gosh, she's got something we don't want anyone here, so it's a balancing act. >> her lemon. thank you back. >> had the pushback from a key

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world ask your eczema specialist about do it it's just your mother and i went different thing which is why we got sling tv. >> so we can watch live and free tv on one app that's right thing is really keeping this family together. you have no idea? >> i had no idea how we'd really having with jesse l. >> martin, sunday's at nine on cnn joining the former president in court today, one of his key allies on the hill from his home state of florida's and/or rick scott of potential vice presidential contender. >> here he is defending trump the courthouse by talking about several whom trump cannot mention himself. bove under his gag order what he is going through is just despicable. >> let's look at who involved, who's involved in doing this the lead prosecutor was the number three person that biden the biden justice department the judge's daughter is a political operative. the lead prosecutors wife is two donor

democrats during your panel now former trump white house communications director alyssa farah griffin interesting to see scott there kind of singing the song that trump on some to same. i mean, it was so thirsty. listen, yes, he suddenly you'd love to be considered as a vice presidential contender. he also has aspirations to replace mitch connell is the leader in the senate, both things that obviously require him being in donald trump's good, gracious, grace's, we've seen this before. we saw the vague ramaswamy show up at another courthouse marjorie taylor greene. it's a way to endure themselves to trump. he remembers people who are with him at his low points. mark meadows, for example, 2016 after access hollywood, when people were thinking about walking away from donald trump, mark meadows, his wife, and other congressional spouses went on the campaign trail to say, be with this guy, despite this tape, he never forgot it. he kept jim jordan close to me, kept mark meadows close because they remember that. so donald trump will take note of this. he's going to, he's going to appreciate us and it was voting today that there they were

casting votes on important bills today. >> you know you know priority. >> there's potato, potato how much do you think the aggressive cross-examination actually pleased donald trump today? >> i think it probably, please trump, but i think it really hurt the defense. i think this juxtaposition where you have maddie western, how'd up and they're talking about oh, you were 28, you made some mistakes, but then attacking stormy daniels, who is 20 seven at the time. but this encounter with donald trump took place. the jury can piece that together and see that there is such different treatment for these two women there is the hard part of being serving donald trump. the client, is that often catering to his instincts and what he wants to see is actually totally unhelpful to the case you're trying to win for him. >> and i think that they when away too far today. >> it's funny answer. i can just say a guest, it's been now on cnn, retired judge george grosso, who comes on my radio show with me every night. he's been the court every day and just shows you how people react

differently. he said on my radio show tonight. today was the best day for the defense that combination of attacking stores for me and then the secretary bragging about the trump family and how one day he said they've never had a day. so consistently blink would positive stuff for trump. i'm not saying he's right, but it just shows you how you don't know what jurors well, thank and to be clear, i do think it was a good knotty west so how it was incredibly helpful to donald trump today that there was a piece of her testimony in particular about the fallout from the access hollywood tape that really seems she was trying to suggest that trump himself was not all that worried about it, all the worry was over at the rnc whether that i maybe elicit you can speak to that, but whether that is true or not that that undercut the prosecution's argument that trump was the one who was part of the panic about how this was going to meet. >> he apologized on video that night i think we forget that he did apologize because now that seems like something you wouldn't never do. >> he certainly was concerned and i think hope hicks alluded

to it or at least those closest to him were they were trying to craft this statement. maddie was at the rnc, so she wasn't part of these conversations. but there was an acknowledgment that this was a very, very real problem the vice presidential candidate, mike pence, was very concerned. >> hope hicks testified she seemed after attorneys, they prepare their clients and maddie very likely watched hope hicks is testimony and can take get some takeaway from that. and i think in some ways came more prepared to be a little bit more effusively of donald trump in ways that hope maybe didn't quite as much leaning into his relationship with melania and she was the real boss what a great boss he was giving her these opportunities. and then this key point that he actually was unbothered by the access hollywood tape. >> it's interesting to hear alyssa talk about donald trump's political and pr instincts, which are good. i mean, a lot of times he defies conventional wisdom, but he's gotten pretty far by following his instincts, but legal and courtroom instincts are a little bit of a different creation. it's has to be much more strategic, much more tactical. i wonder if he's own

worst enemy when it comes to this, when he's pushing his lawyers to do things that could be taken both ways. but i mean, my reads certainly was, were destructive to his defense. >> he may be about to find out, i guess we'll see what i'm telling stories out of school, but i think please do my educational educated guess is the one of the reasons why joe taka pina is not his lawyer in that courtroom is because joe and i were in the da's office together. >> i know very well he's a brilliant lawyer. he's a great strategist in that courtroom. you say anything you want those jurors love them but joe joe's not going to take anything his his client has never going to tell him what to do. never and i maybe why joe is not in that courtroom and they really used a lot of trump's tactics against him today. >> would stormy daniels, i mean, she was the embodiment of that in several ways. one, when it came to just hit his attacks on her and her attacks on him, they were trying to use her post about him that were derogatory as a way to discredit her and she said,

okay, well, i was just responding to him. i mean, he calls her horse face. he calls routed rallies of his. they also were saying, well, you were just trying to make money off of this. you've got this candle, you've got this t-shirt, donald trump himself has raised so much money off of his indictments as well. and so that was an interesting part of this to see how trump's own tactics that he has used for years were being used against him. and the cross-examination. >> and i think that the key figures for the proven the second half of this case are going to be stormy daniels and then michael cohen who have been just bloodied up this entire trial. i think she was much better defending herself today, but their honesty called into question and then contrasting that with hope hicks and maddie west or how the public didn't see them. but two women who present so buttoned up they speak well, their authoritative, but then they're also emotional. they're also crying over. they're carrying& love for donald trump and loyalty to him. it's a very interesting juxtaposition that i could see resonating with a jury. i could see them saying look at these professional women who look up to him, admire him despite all

the horrible things we've heard about him, they still want to be with him. and then adjust the juxtaposition to that. is that if the jury believes that that same guy is the guy who was in lake tahoe with stormy daniels that really undercuts a lot of it. i mean, stormy herself undercuts trump's credibility as a sympathetic figure. the fact that she exists in this context, the fact that there is even a debate over whether they had sex and that hotel room and he was 60 and she was 27 if anybody on the jury believes that it's gonna be really hard for them to buy the sob stories about how great of a boss he was to these other two women. >> thank you everybody. appreciate it. a lot to digest. accord is in session tomorrow. the news continues, including our special primetime coverage of the trump trial after a short break you write that is this how people dress in norway? no one no is fine this

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clinically back to promote healthy liver functions so that nothing is holding you back five good things listen wherever you get your podcasts close captioning brought to you by meso book our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelioma, call us now welcome to a special edition of newsnight. >> i'm abby phillip in new york alongside kaitlan collins tonight, combat in court de 14 of donald trump's hush money trial provided a lesson in how not to make friends, how to alienate the judge, and how to maybe alienate the jury as well. stormy daniels took the stand, yet again, under cross-examination and for the