it's all the things that keep this world turning. the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions and round the clock partnership from comcast business. see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. dra w to 369369. today how it really happened. sunday at nine on cnn closed captioning is brought to you by you, cora, help maintain a healthy urinary tract with you, cora, i can having uti sport ten years. >> you, cora, we make uti relief products. >> we also make proactive urinary trax health product. >> you cora, is a lifestyle tried today at your core.com good evening. >> welcome to our continuing special prompt time covers the fast movement from hush money trial de eight saw three

witnesses testify, former national enquirer publisher david pecker, wrapping up a week on the stand, former trump personal assistance, or rhona graff, seemingly undermining the former president is denial about faris and stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and a former executive of the bank where michael cohen arrange the, uh, hundred and $30,000 daniels payout? rhona graff, under defense cross-examination in meetings. she was not testifying by choice, but nonetheless, telling prosecutors that she kept contact information for the two women her boss had denied knowing intimately, including stormy daniels cell phone number and two addresses for karen mcdougal she also said she vaguely recalled one seeing daniels at trump tower on the 26th floor. then when prompted by the defense, she said it might have been in connection with the apprentice earlier. the defense tried hard to undermine former national enquirer publisher david pecker, and upcoming witness, michael cohen the trump's attorney, emil bove, a asking if he believed cohen was prone to exaggeration, pecker agreeing that he was the end of it all, the former president had this to say about the trials so far this is eight

days that we all sitting in this courthouse this is all night. >> indictment it's an honor to try and win an election. political opponent nothing like this has ever happened eight days our country is going to help and we sit here day after, day after day, which is their plan well, the foreign president offer no evidence, of course, to backup any of those claims. there's no evidence that any of what he said is true, joining us tonight, new york criminal defense attorney arthur aidala, also, attorney and former apprentice contestant stacey schneider, cnn political commentator earl lewis, in and legal analyst karen friedman, agnifilo hello, and elie honig and cnn's kara scannell, who was in the courtroom today. and we'll be going through the transcript for us throughout the night. i want to ask this everybody for care of for you. what stood out today? >> well, i had an actual front row seat. today's sitting just behind donald trump. and when david pecker was testifying, trump, essentially maintain the same position the whole time i mean, it would seem like it was

a bit tedious or boring to him. he was just sitting back in his chair with his head cocked in the direction of david pecker, turned to completely make out his facial expressions, but when rhona graff took the stand, we saw his body language changed dramatically. mean she was testifying pretty favorably about him. well, under cross-examination chen, by his lawyer, and he then had shifted his chair so we can look directly at her. and then when she was leaving the stand, it happened to be at a break and he stood up, which is normal and it looked as though he was trying to move toward her as if to talk to her. but it didn't seem like they had made any kind of connection, but it was a long day in court and he seems to sort just take it in listening, but not really even actively engaging as much as his attorneys as we've seen on other days where he was actively path singh notes. today, he just seemed to be taking it in to you. >> what would stood out? so the banker, the third witness, is the least sensational witness that we've heard from, but also in my view, the most

important because when people ask, well, where's the crime? >> it's really important to remember because we've just spent a week immersed in hush money payments and porn stars and payouts the crime is in the financing. and now we're finally getting to that. this banker basically started to establish that michael cohen was eager to get this line of financing set up. he felt a sense of urgency and there was some need to be undercover about the way they did it. and it's important to keep in mind michael cohen is the prosecution's star witness. but they have to show he committed a crime because if the jury does not believe michael cohen committed a crime, it's over. there's no way donald trump committed a crime. let's michael cohen isn't very easy to show. michael cohen committed a crime given he spent time in prison. >> yeah, he pled to the federal offense, which is a little different than the falsifying documents, which is the state offense. >> the hilt say he committed a crime, so it won't be that hard. >> heard but you want to establish exactly how we committed the crime, which is through this financing and then tied donald trump right to that would you i think what stood out to me this week is the entire defense is starting to

take shape, are starting to understand how they're going to present their defense. and it's largely through the people's witnesses other. than going on the attack and going on the offensive against the witnesses that have testified so far, there sort of embracing the facts but saying, yeah, these things happened. yeah, there was hush money paid, but we've been doing that that was being done for everybody. it wasn't had nothing to do with the election. this is just a business model and this is how it went. this is essentially how david pecker made his money. and i just benefited from it too. so did he had nothing to do with the election, nothing to do with the election interference. and the reason that's significant is because ely's right, it's all about the records, but that's just a misdemeanor well, it gets it to a felony is if it was done in furtherance of some sort other crime, like election fraud. so i thought that was interesting because sometimes defense attorneys will go on the attack and they'll really attack the credibility and say this didn't happen and there was a

little bit of that with david pecker, but not a lot just a few little little things. it was really mostly, yes. this is what happened. but nothing to see here. it's not a crime and they were all me pecker has said that this was about the election. i mean, he said he's also was concerned about his family, but the election was front and yeah. >> he pointed out that more or less the family was at best a secondary consideration. >> i was really struck by the fact that even he had some limits. i mean, he's talking about a very unsavory enterpriser pecker, very unsavory enterprise paying people to to sort of buy their stories and then buried those stories are putting out proactively. i thought that was also interesting. proactively putting out all kinds of false stories against trump's enemies that this was a complete enterprise but then to also hear him say that there were limits to that, that he didn't want to buy stormy daniel story. you know, he says i'm not the bank, i'm not not going to be an endless source of money to buy off all of your mistresses are all of the people that you want to keep

quiet. it was interesting to me that like even within this really distasteful enterprise that he was running, he felt like he had some limits and apparently had talked with some of the lawyers for the enquirer and was told, don't take that extra step. this could actually have some reputational harm. this could be a problem for you somewhere down the line. and that's why michael cohen ended up dipping into his own resources stacey habit for what's to them? >> well, today's interesting for me because rhona graff took the stand and i know rhona graff from being on the show. she is the nicest woman in the world. i always wondered how she made it through more than 30 years working for a difficult donald trump, but she literally is his gatekeeper. she knows all his schedules. and even though her testimony was really short, the prosecution is being strategic. they got in those nuggets that rhona knew that donald trump had stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's phone numbers in

his directory, rhona controls everybody's all the phone numbers that donald trump needs access to and the fact that stormy daniels was in trump tower, she has a memory of her being there and regardless of what the purpose of stormy daniels being there was at that time, when you have michael cohen coming in, who the defense is going to completely argue as we all know, has credibility issues placing stormy in the building, a trump tower isn't advantage rather than just stormy and donald trump being in a photograph together, it's sort of little nuggets that eventually i think will be tied up later in the case. so that was an enrollment was also a unionizing witness for donald trump incidentally, she was a prosecution witness, but she's affection about her boss and she always cared for him and when michael cohen comes in, who is the most disgruntled former employee on the planet? the defense might remind the jury and closing statement that, hey, you know

now donald trump is not hu michael cohen says he is. that might be a strategy we'll see, are there anything that prosecutions or the defense is doing? >> well karen has an enormous amount of experience and the other night or maybe last night, when i said there's an underlying elements of jury nullification, which is just like, okay, yeah, this all happened really, folks, are you really going to put this guy in jail for this for these crimes that you're not even going to understand when the judge reads the charged you exactly what's going on here. >> and we just heard from mr. pecker that it goes on all the time. with celebrities at different aspects of their life with arnold schwarzenegger was running for governor of the biggest state in the united states of america. like this is underlying current and so like karen's point also, there are some times when you can attack and then there's other times where you like. all right. >> there's no way i could get around this right. so let me figure out a way. e to adopt it and make it my own and use it in the way most beneficial to

me because i'll lose credibility with the jury if i tried to say that black is white and white is black. but if i figure out a way to say it's either black and i loved black or it's white and i loved blight or it's a little gray, but not be this like a toc dog. what i was quantity ask was, susan nicholas question this witness, correct. what was because i know i know of her. she's like a mentor almost in that she's a very, very well-known and well regarded criminal defense attorney. what was it like in the courtroom with having a woman stand up and conducting this and she's really a skilled lawyer, so i'm just curious if with a dynamic changed well, the prosecutor who did the question was also female was susan hoffinger who asked her the questions and she went through she was using graph to get in these documents that's because they haven't had stipulations on a lot of the business records. so we're going to see a lot of these document witnesses. but when susan nicholas took took the podium and she was asking rhona graff these questions. she was leaning into the humanizing factor of donald trump. and at one point, after a few

questions that she got in, the prosecutors objected and the judge had sustained it essentially was like, okay, we need to move on to the next topic because she was drawing out this favorable image of donald trump through the eyes of rhona graph. >> you been looking at through the transcripts which we get them very late in the day, what what would it noted? on cross-examination of david pecker today? >> the core of his he's a vehicle by the prosecution to set the stage and just talk about this august 2015 meeting in which this catch and kill conspiracy as the prosecution has laid it out, began where he met with donald trump and michael cohen. so they were trying to go back to that meeting and suggests that it was just like businesses usual, it was standard operating procedure for the national enquirer. so aiml beauvais want to trump's defense lawyers had asked pecker on the stan i want you i want to stick with the august 2015 trump tower meeting. pecker says yes, beauvais says, at that meeting, the concept of catch-and-kill

was not discussed, correct? pecker said that's correct but they asked and then there was no discussion of a financial dimension to any agreement at that meeting, correct? pecker said, yes, that's correct. so trying to say that there was no blatant conversation about a catch and kill and that i'm going to buy the deals now on redirect with the prosecution, they tried to put that back together with pecker saying, i talked about either someone would have to buy the maga, the story if it wasn't me, it was going to be he was saying i was going to tell michael cohen and michael cohen was going to find someone who would take care of it. >> so they put it back together. >> but this was a strategy by the defense, is that october meeting in 2015 is important for the prosecution because that's really the the the origin of this arrangement that then move forward and we saw the results with the doorman and mcdougal and then later stormy daniels, even though national acquired and buy stock in story, right? >> exactly. i mean, this is the beginning of the conspiracy and it was as pecker testified, it

was donald trump's idea to have the meeting and that donald trump asked him, what can you and your magazine do for me? so this was the piece that trump's team was trying to chip away at, that they would have published a lot of these stories about trump's opponents. anyway, because that's what the national enquirer does. and it was good for business for them because they would benefit their readers. was like donald will trump, that was one of the things that came out in the testimony that they had prior to that meeting, they had already published negative stories, isn't that right away? they had been carson and they went through a couple of things that they showed that the gordian had already published a lot of these stories about ben carson and the national enquirer was just recycling it and that it was coinciding with poll results. >> and they also establish that the national enquirer had already done a bunch of negative stories on bill and hillary clinton that predated this meeting. so it wasn't something that was necessarily hatched then saying there was already a pattern here. so trying to really for sizing that this is what the national enquirer does. and then

prosecutors trying to say, but everything was different in 2015 because they did some of these things like bearing the karen mcdougal story that didn't benefit them much more to talk about, including more from the trial transcripts up next to a point that earl lewis brought up earlier, the moment on the stand when david pecker admitted there were conditions under which he would publish a story damaging to the former president will okay. >> yeah, we got orders coming in, starting a business is never easy. the star name, eight months pregnant. that's a different story. >> i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. >> and so did our business needs. >> the chase e car and made it easy. when you go for something big like this. your kids need it. and they believe they can do the same, earn a limit, 1.5% cash back on every purchase. but the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business, make more what's yours don't know.

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than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. preferred better science, better results. how it really happened sunday at nine on cnn a week on the stand, former tabloid publisher, david pecker gave juror is an up look at how he bought and killed stories on behalf of donald trump. >> this course at the center of the prosecution's theory of the case and why he was there lead witness today under cross-examination, though, he admitted there were limits to that arrangement and conditions under which you would publish something damaging to his friends, specifically regarding the first catch and kill story of doorman's false claim that the former president fathered a child out of wedlock. here's the exchange between pecker and trump's attorney emil bove vey beauvais said, so if this story was true, the doorman's story, you were going to run it, correct? pecker says yes because you had a fiduciary obligation patient to do that, right. says beauvais pecker says that is correct, but they

said it would have made business sense to put it mildly to run such an article if it was true, correct. twitch, pecker replied, yes. now, we should point out in testimony earlier this week, pecker did testify under oath that if he ran the story, it would have been after the election which makes the argument that this was to protect trump going into the election. but as soon as the election was over, pecker would have run that doorman's story because it would have been in his words, extremely popular or not his exact words. but he said it would've been extremely popular among the national enquirer for audience back with the panel joining us as well as barry levine, former executive editor of the national enquirer. barry, i'm wondering, you know, david pecker, obviously. well, you worked with the enquirer for a long time you had some involvement with that doorman's story. how do you what do you make of him as a witness? >> well, listen, i was there anderson for 17 years. i was actually the first editorial higher for david pecker back in 1999 it's certainly troubling to be to be watching this

unfold in thinking back to the great years of breaking so many great stories, john edwards, tiger woods, jesse jackson's paternity of a child. i was i left the inquire after the doorman's story two months before the karen mcdougal story before they got involved with that. and the last trump's story that i did work on was the doorman's story and i mean david pecker was absolutely right. had that story turned out to be true, and he published it, it would have been a mega sale. it might have sold millions of copies. >> did you know? >> that he was going to kill it if it turned out, regardless of what it turned out. >> well, listen, i mean, i remember going back to 2010 when i knew back from the early days that david was close to donald trump that they were

close friends back in 2010, i didn't interview with donald trump when he was actually thinking about running for president in 2012. and just from the way we presented that story, i'm going to save america. i realized very quickly back then that this was probably the way it was going to go with donald trump 2012, of course, never happened. did you know he was going to kill the doorman's story? all right yes. >> yeah. in fact we investigated this story very, very rapidly. i mean, on john edwards, i took two years, my reporting team to prove that story. when the doorman's story came down the pike i talked to dylan howard, who was my editor and said, listen, we need some time. i said, i sense that michael cohen is going to find out about this and donald trump is going to eventually find out about this. but for the sake of the inquire, for the sake of our legacy in terms of breaking

these types of stories, let us at least work the story. and we did investigate it for a very short period of time, dispatch reporters got photos of the woman and her doctor know that you were doing that for donald trump? i mean, did you know that you the wires and what issue so what was the process? i mean, obviously, the heart broke, the john edwards story got there was a nomination for pillar for that but they also, i mean, as has been testified to, pecker said they put out this story about ted cruz, his father, which he said was completely made up. >> what? what was that discussion like if you knew a story which just made up. but we're going to edit it and go with it anyway. yeah the door man, we shut down the story after a brief period of time, sensing that the story probably was false and the door man was

paid the $30,000 which i would have liked to have had more time to investigate. it certainly was widely known within the company like, oh, he's being paid $30,000? no, it was it was known among the editors. it was a very tight-knit group. the lawyer certain certainly knew in terms of the ted cruz oswald father's story. >> i mean, i was ready gone from them and saw the story on the news stand and thought, you know, what's going on here. >> the inquires entered the twilight zone to some degree. i mean, things have gone completely over the over the edge. >> is there any other plausible explanation for pecker catching and killing the karen mcdougal story and ting up trump and cohen for the story, daniel thing, other than to protect the campaign, i mean, you have no doubt that do or do you do you have any doubt that this

was about protecting the campaign as opposed to what some of trump's people had been saying there's a look, he was concerned about his wife finding out no, it was it was it was completely for the campaign. >> i mean, this was absolutely we transactional and i'm blessed now still wondering as i listened to the report of the david pecker's testimony, why he would sacrifice the inquire, why he would sacrifice the legacy of great tabloid reporting and he said he had donald trump had been his mentor and like the edward story the campaign aide andrew young, had claimed falsely that he was to fathered the child to protect john edward in this particular case? it was an unhinged type of loyalty with michael cohen, with david pecker. and pecker also testified he had done this with or that arnold schwarzenegger had approached him that other

celebrities had were you i mean, did you know about this history and how common was this sort of catching and killing even the pecker didn't use that term i mean, i think from his testimony, it seemed like this was happening all the time they were rare cases. >> we never went it out to spend time investigating stories and not running them. i mean, we had to fill the book with 40 story he's a week. my interest, my reporting teams that i directed, we wanted to break stories. these reporters were raring to go knocking on doors, staking people out, looking at documents we were never a fan of stories that never made it into the paper. but of course it was his paper. he was the publisher and he had friends and there were times when some good stories probably were were buried. and unfortunately, the pain for stories, how did that work? i mean when you're working a story, you have a report this out taking people out, going through garbage or whatever it is, hanging outside their homes is there a set sort of like

pricelist for me, how do you determine what at what it's worth? >> i mean first of all, i think it's the irony is the big stories that we worked on over the years and also goes to the early days of the enquirer, the gary hart story is the oj stories. most of those stories you can't write a check for. you have to investigate, you have to send reporters out. you have to do the digging, you have to knock on the doors. you have to cultivate sources who are going to to trust you that went into the great stories we didn't we couldn't write a check for john edwards. it took two years, but your sources, you pay sources. i mean, yeah. there's no people surrounding karen megan google? yes, there's no question for exclusivity when you're a weekly publication and you need to hold someone from speaking to another media organization for a week's time, you're going to put them under some type of exclusivity. it could be a couple hundred dollars, it could be several thousands of dollars. i mean, we operated no differently i mean, we were bold about the fact that we practice checkbook journalism and certainly there were

individuals who called the enquirer tip line specifically because they were looking for money, but television shows would pay for video. they would pay still pay for somebody's scrapbook are still photos. it would justify some payments, but they weren't as direct as the national enquirer and in terms of what it's become i mean, it is a shadow of its former self in terms of readership and in terms of, do you think that they i mean, do you think it will continue? i mean, that's that is so hard to say. i feel a great deal of sadness over the way pecker came forward and just talked about checkbook journalism, talking about routinely doing caching kills. >> because i made it seem like no matter what you your what your personal beliefs were and of the work you were doing for so long david pecker was using

this to cultivate friends and to be like a remorse fish on the shark of donald trump. i mean to kinda be in trump's orbit. he enjoyed that. >> yeah. i mean, there's no question about that i have no ill will towards him. he was a great employer for me for 17 years. however, i do feel like so many other former employees that i see on facebook and elsewhere that he took what had been a great legacy, part of american pop culture and he weaponized it general. so pope, who had been the original owner, who created a national inquire his son came out in 2019 and said his father general. so pope is rolling over and rolling over in his grave because of what david pecker did in terms of weaponizing the paper for a political campaign. and the i had a end up writing a book all the president's women, donald trump in the making of a predator, trying to do the work

that the enquirer reporters could have done over the years because it was so much on donald trump that could have been reported. and had they reported out the karen mcdougal story and stormy daniels it could have changed the course of the election very liberating. 16. appreciate your time tonight. thank you so much coming up next, kara scannell is continuing to go through today's courtroom transcript to complete version of me just out what she is finding that you found it. >> the feeling of bindings, psoriasis can't filter out there real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only so tick to a once-daily pill for moderate to severe prac psoriasis and the chance that clear or almost it's clear skin, it's like the feeling of finding your so ready for your close-up or finding you don't have to hide your skin. just your background once daily. so check two was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if

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mattresses made of florida well closed captioning is brought to you by you, cora, help maintain a healthy urinary tract with you, cora, i can having utis for ten years. >> you, cora, we make uti relief products. >> we also i'll make proactive urinary tract health products. you korea is a lifestyle tried today at your core.com we're learning more about a testy exchange and de, at the trump hush money trial today from the full transcript, just releasing cnn's kara scannell has continued to go through it. >> she's back with us. so how did david pecker push back on some of the defenses tax on this? credibility or i guess a tax is mavi what was wrong? >> yeah, they're looking to try to find inconsistencies. so maybe the jury thinks his memory is not so good or it's too rehearsed, but one piece of his testimony that he gave on direct was about a january 2017

meeting. he said he went to trump tower. he saw donald trump and that donald trump had the thing tim for taking care of the doorman's story great. and karen mcdougal story. so then trump's lawyer saying confronting with him some notes that an fbi agent had taken after an interview, david pecker gave to them. and in those fbi notes the notes say the david pecker didn't recall any gratitude from donald trump's, so he was challenging on on that asking him about that david pecker says i know what i remember. this is going back to 2018. i didn't recall back from what i'm saying here is that during the fbi investigation, i know what i said yesterday happens, so i can't reconcile what the fbi interview was. if someone made a mistake or not beauvais says, so you can't reconcile because what you said yesterday is inconsistent with what's in this report, correct? pecker says yes, but i wouldn't be responsible for this report, but they said i understand. so you're suggesting that the fbi made a mistake here. pecker said, i know what the truth is. i'm not i can't state what

the woods here why this was written, this way. i know exactly what was sent to me so interested, i don't think the defense donald trump's defense, did much to impact david pecker is credibility. >> that's a small dang right there, but they did something better. they are using david pecker's testimony to undermine michael cohen, the three best words that the defense has on the record, four so far came today prone to exaggeration. they got david pecker to say michael cohen is prone to exaggeration and so they're gonna do that by the way, with a lot of other witnesses. if kellyanne conway takes the stand, i bet she has negative things to say about michael cohen, maybe hope hicks two. and what you do as a defense lawyer, not my profession, ards, but i've seen enough good ones. inaction. when it comes down for closing go folks their own witnesses. the first guy they put in front of you, david pecker, said that their star witness is prone to exaggeration if you find that he exaggerated to this case is over. so that's a really smart and effective tactic. >> like michael cohen can be restored as the star witness so

easily because people forget or maybe don't forget that he pled guilty to the same scheme that trump is now being put on trial for. and people generally as a defense lawyer do not plead guilty to things they didn't do and plea is locked in. he took a three-year jail sentence for the acts that he claimed in open court when he entered his plea. i did this at the direction of donald trump and you just can't get around that no matter how bad the defense makes. michael cohen look, and it's going to be a slug fest when he gets on the stand, i actually cannot wait to did that happen. are there how would you do restored sometimes there's things you don't get around and i just want to go back to what karen said before. >> and also what ellie said, like in other words, you've got to. pick your spots. you gotta attack and question people's credibility and question in their memory and all of that when you can and when you can't you try to embrace it

and make it your own obviously prone to exaggeration is great, but another phrase i thought was standard operating procedure that goes to the jury nullification, like they're trying to make it out that would donald trump is the prosecution is is so unique, no one has ever done this before, and that went out the window as they said, my colleague, doug judge george grosso, who's been in the court every day. he said after his testimony and i think his broke our last gets heart, but after his testimony, i wanted to take a shower because it shows how dirty that industry is. an enlightens all of us how you know, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the national enquirer well, that's that's his neck breaking news cnn i think the argument that we've heard quite a bit as well, michael cohen already went to went to jail for this and so didn't donald trump do the same thing? it's not quite right though, because first of all, michael cohen pled guilty to half the crime donald trump is charged with here. he pled guilty to the campaign finance part, but not necessarily the

falsifying business records as part. so that's number one. number two, michael cohen has been let's say, reticent, maybe even self-contradictory about the circumstances of his federal plea. he has been very vocal about the fact that he feels like to put to use michael collins word the southern district of new york. my former office michael said they put a gun to my head. they threaten my wife. i pled guilty to things i didn't actually commit. i committed perjury when i pled guilty. that's michael cohen story. now, that's a disaster that's a mess. michael cohen is now offering lies stacked upon lies. and boy, the defense times across examination is going to be all my long carry. the standard operating procedure, which are they're talking about you actually have something in the transcript about that yeah. >> this was an redirect for the prosecution. >> they were getting at the karen mcdougal story and was it really bought for the standard operating procedure line that the defense is pushing the prosecutor, joshua steinglass asked david pecker, have you published a story about a playboy model having a year old sexual affair while he was

married with a with a presidential candidate would that have sold magazines you think pecker said? yes. steinglass said that would be like national enquirer gold pecker said, yes, steinglass said, but at the time you entered into that agreement, you had zero intention of publishing that story. pecker said that's correct. and the prosecutor said, and despite the fact that publishing that story would have helped your bottom line, you killed the story because it helped the candidate donald trump pecker said yes. so they're counter and cutting against the standard operating procedure, obviously, if this was national enquirer gold and they would have made a fortune off the headline. they decided not to publish it and that was the point prosecutors we're trying to push that. this was for donald trump's candidacy, not for the bottom line. >> prosecution gold. >> i mean, to get him to admit that i was willing to do something that was contrary to my bottom line to help a candidate that's exactly what they need to say. >> and that's what the prosecution's trying to do in

order to make michael cohen irrelevant. levin, frankly. and could you just explain to me because i don't understand how is that a cry house that an elements of the crimes are the elements that the judge is going to read after the summation so this crime is a bump up crime, right? it's basically a misdemeanor plus so the misdemeanor is if you falsified business records, i think everybody thinks that's the easier part to prove. all right. because he said it was for legal. >> i agree with. okay. but if you did it with the intention, the general intention to either conceal or commit or aid another crime. it bumps it up to a felony. and the way i like to describe it is it's like burglary, burglary is a trespass, right? no only enter and remain unlawfully somewhere, which is a misdemeanor. but if you add to that, the intent to commit a crime, they're in it bumps it up to a burglary and you don't always know what the crime is in a burglary, you don't know.

>> okay. but the difference is with the burghley example, you just use things are happening simultaneously. you're entering and you're committing the crime right there in that not necessarily. you could you could have you could have a scenario where somebody is opens the door to an apartment, walks in and gets caught as he steps in the door. and if that guy had a sleeping bag and a toothbrush, he was going there to sleep. that's a misdemeanor. that's a trespass. but if instead he had a safe cracker and he also had when it's all happening simultaneously, he's he's cracking the door, he's walking in with the sleeping bag. he's walking in with the safe cracker here. they're saying the misdemeanor took place and somewhere down the road another crime is taking place. that's the difference between the burglars? yes, i am i'm not arguing with you. i'm trying to figure this i have i have paperwork here it says i what i'm trying to figure it out, what i'm doing legal homework here. >> this is a conspiracy to commit burglary okay. mike, so

how come karen, who you get when you ran the office, you know, this stuff. >> why didn't they charge a simple conspiracy? >> because for two reasons, a conspiracy write stuff you don't mind i feel like i'm in lost. >> we got two hours joined us because because falsifying business records in the first degree is an e felony, that's the lowest level felony conspiracy to commit an e felony isn't a misdemeanor. >> number one. statute of limitations had run on all the misdemeanors by the time they indicted this crime. okay. so they couldn't have a number two as a prosecutor, you don't charge a misdemeanor because you don't want the jury to compromise on a misdemeanor, you want them to do the felony and you don't need the conspiracy because the crime that they're saying he used to that he intended to still commit was the state election crime, which is a conspiracy to commit election fraud. it has conspiracy built into it. so you didn't need it. so i guess that was three reasons why they didn't charge because i can

ask the professor what one more question. so professor here, here's my question. >> i'm not wise guy by calling professor because you're actually educating us the bump up crime. >> i know you don't have to articulate what it is. >> but if if the choice, the menu that they're giving us are all misdemeanors themselves that are out of the statue of limitations my question is, can a misdemeanor the false records? >> that's out of this statute limitations. and another misdemeanor, which is the bump at misdemeanor, is also out of the statue of limitations can you put two misdemeanors, both out of this statute limitations to those two things equal a felony they have three crimes that they are saying is the bump up, right? >> state election tax. yeah. >> so the answer is it's the answer is yes. the prosecution theories, yes. but it's never for been before america.

>> it's hasn't been tested on appeal, but it has been done that has not been tested on. >> how do you how would you describe this? is it i mean a novel prosecution is pie in the sky, is it? you know, interesting, how do you so the only thing, the only thing unusual about this case is the defendant. >> this is a bread and butter white-collar crime in new york. this is done by prosecutors all over the state. this is bread and butter. the manhattan da's office, the fed's, it's like the feds who charge mail fraud and wire fraud for everything and that you're like how how does that a male or wire fraud, but it's like the charge that they use all the time. this is done all the time. what's unusual is then on all go to trial so this is a lot of them are allowed to plead guilty or they plea bargain them out. and this is going to trial. and of course, who the defendant is is what's also very unusual. >> we're going to take a quick

break that was really interesting. a retired new york state supreme court justice is known the judge in trump's hush money case for more than 15 years is joining us from take on the prosecution's claimed that the former president continues to violate the gag gordon where the judge might do about it in next week's gag order hearing or four, we'll be right back after last month's massive solar flare added a 24 hour to the day businesses are wondering what shubi two within begun eggs 2057, right? response from 20% with any additional hours with the extra hour, i'm thinking up the white power now, let's put it through a book this is going to wreak havoc on overtime approvals. anything can change the world of work from hr to pay roll adp designs, forward-thinking solutions to take on the next next, stuck at the dmv. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing. the general gives you a break with flexible payment options let's get out your break while you

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save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual anyway, we got a bit of a situation here sure i can only pay for what you need those clusters, frozen empire in theaters now the white house correspondents dinner, live tomorrow at seven eastern cnn next thursday, judge merchan has scheduled a hearing. i don't trump's alleged 14 gag order violations. the hearing comes after prosecutors say from violated the gag order four times in just the past few days, retired new york state supreme court justice joel kahn visor joins us once again tonight. she's known judge merchan for more than 15 years. >> are you surprised, judge, that merchan has not already ruled on the gag order? no. i'm not. and i'll tell you why originally, when we first had these alleged violations, i thought it would be one and done and we'll be finished. but then while this is pending

and he does a hearing to which the defendant is entitled. there was no summary summary violation here when the defendant persists and continues to decide he's seen seemingly violating the order. what's the point? what's the point of doing it? to rush it, think about it for a minute. the goal judge merchan's goal here is to make sure both sides get a fair trial and to get a verdict. and to do that without with as little incident and as much grace as possible. this hearing and these get this gag order violations or to a great extent, a sideshow there are plenty of people out there, maybe some at this table who want to get trump, no matter what, right? they want to see him in jail, or they want to see him held responsible for this, they want his blood. i get that judge merchan has not one of them. he wants to keep this trial on track. make sure he gets the verdict at this point. the truth is, even if there is a finding of content

there's no reason why he needs to sentence him now he can wait till the end of the trial and deal with it at that point. quite frankly, the da's office, i'm pointing to you because you are da manhattan the da's office regardless of what judge merchan does with a condemned, can bring criminal contempt charges against him through the penal law, as opposed to the judiciary law, which is what and how judge merchan is is proceeding. >> the da's office brought this to judge merchan's attention complaint two, and put in a request for an order to show cause very quickly. i mean, the da's office clearly is taking this seriously i don't quite follow the logic of what's the rush i mean, why leave it hanging out there, especially when trump continues to receive aid, what would be the harm of the judge coming out? he had a hearing, as you said, and saying that's it. we had the hearing. here's my findings. you violated and knock it off. why couldn't that only help the situation? >> well, i don't know. i think that no matter what happened happens, whatever the result at this at this particular hearing

is, the defendant walks out as victor or victim and that's part of the sideshow. so i don't disagree with you that having ruled is a bad idea. but at this point, again, because i don't think the sentence is going to happen until after the trial. maybe, we need to focus on the testimony one more quick question. >> would you ever under any circumstance, if you were if this was your case, lock-up, donald trump, based on based on violations of a gag order, if you did, it ate more times, depends on what the violation is. if it keeps on posting about michael cohen every day, this guy is a serial perjure. were there ever come a point where you would lock them up? really, yes. >> oh, i i've been there done it would combine believe, it or lunch bag with me just in case i want the billowing sandwich i could bring it inside, but judge, convoy, i just said the other night the judges in a tough spot because unlike in

the civil case, i think trump was getting hit with like $10,000 finds that starts being a big number for no matter who you are, 10,000 in another 10,000. not here by statute only $1,000 hi, that's not exactly going to change donald trump's world. and especially if he thinks, look anytime you represent people in the media, like trump is like a lot of other high-profile people are. in my opinion, they overemphasize the public relations aspect of the trial. they assumed the jurors are reading it. they assume the jurors are violating the judge's his orders and looking at and they're trying so hard to influence them. i haven't found that to be the case. i've found after a verdict, jurors yeah, i was in a cab and the thing popped up or i was on my phone, but i've never found the juror after questioning them after a verdict, that layout blatantly violet, nothing could be lying to me, but i will tell you there are certain defendants who like they really emphasize on getting the message out after the jury's and paneled when the jury's not supposed to

email, see the goal might not be due to influence the jury so much is really just to provoke a miss trial, right? >> oh, that's a win for the defense in any case, particularly what would it take to provoke a mistrial? >> well myriad reasons were related to the gag order to the gag order i guess hadn't thought about that. >> maybe if the defendants said something that completely infected the jury by saying something that was so outraged or so so egregious, i couldn't be fair. i don't see that the defendant himself could do something that could end up as a mistrial than jurors could the defendant reaching out to a juror could be a what about the judge put president trump in prison for violating the gag order, and it really got out and pictures what everywhere of donald trump behind bars. and it found that that one of the jurors a jury, could come in when judge convoys, you could tell you they came in and some of them fess up it. look, i did see i saw the cover of the new york post. it is a picture of

donald trump behind bars. >> i don't think that's a mistrial. i think that's an instruction that's an instruction just forgot to just forget about you. would choose but i'm not going there was this report earlier that the secret service and the law enforcement hadn't met or we're meeting to discuss if in this long-shot thing he was put in a in a cell, how would they actually do that? but era, i mean that's highly, highly, highly unlikely or highly unlikely or it's certainly undesirable. but if his goal, let's assume for a minute that candidate trump just wants to delay this, that the issues of guilt and innocence and what's going to happen to him and whether or not he loses his freedom is something he would like to deal with on the other side of the election he could stand up in court. he could say something crazy, he could come outside of court, he could say something crazy, he could deliberately try and push the system to the point where the trial is either delayed or you

get a mr.. only have to start over just had kaitlan collins joins us with an exclusive interview. >> the former president's attorney general, william ball or about the trial, the mini hearing and his response to former presidents mocking bars, endorsement shut that's the until may 12th for up to 30% off special mother's day gifts that go beyond the usual suspects save on personalized joules original decor other things moms actually love when you need a gift as unique as she is. etsy has when you're the leader in disaster clean up and restoration, how do you make like it never even happened, happened hi whatever comes your way. there's a pro

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progress. >> i've are still alvarez at the white house. and this is cnn 9:00 p.m. here in new york, the eighth day of the trump hush money trial. here are busy and productive one now in the books in this hour verse krystal prime continuing coverage, more details from the trial transcripts we just received the former president is latest word on whether he'll testify and what's ahead. while trial resumes next week, kaitlan collins starts off the hour with an exclusive interview. caitlyn yeah. anderson, i'm joined here tonight by william barr, who served as the former president's attorney general, and who told him that his 2020 allegations of election fraud were not true. >> but as now said, he will support the republican ticket. therefore, donald trump, again, mr. attoen