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right today at you core.com i'm laura coates alongside abby, phillip, and our panel here in washington for a special edition this in i'm laura codes live and we're at the end of a very long week in the trump hush money trial. >> court is actually dark on monday, but they'll get what gland again on tuesday morning at 9:30. so just what exactly will juror is take away from what they heard in court today. and when they need to be thinking about over their long weekend while there were three witnesses, it took the stand today. it had david pecker who wrapped up more than ten hours or testimony over a period of four days, he was as also trump's former longtime assistant, rhona graff, who was only on the stand for what, a half an hour, then michael cohen's former banker, gary farro, who is likely to continue testifying this coming tuesday the prosecution wants jurist remember, pecker's testimony that his intention was to never publish karen

mcdougal story of an alleged affair with trump from the transcript, he said, had you published a story about a playboy model having a year long sexual affair while he was married with a presidential candidate without that have sold magazines. see if think his answer. >> yes, that'd be like national enquirer gold. >> yes. >> going on to say and despite the fact that publishing that story would have helped your bottom line, you killed the story because it helped the candidate donald trump yes and then there was a rhona graff, trump's longtime gatekeeper over at the trump organization. >> her desk was at one point just outside of trump's office from the defensive standpoint, she was there to show what you might call a kinder, gentler version of her boss she testified that sometimes if it was a long day in the office, i appreciated that. he joked, he poked his head in and would say go home to your family. it was

very thoughtful of him. she also confirmed that he kept contact information for karen mcdougal and for stormy daniels who's said she saw at trump tower and assumed that she was being considered for celebrity apprentice from the transcript, am i correct that prior to starmer, stormy daniels coming up to the office at trump tower, you recall hearing president trump discuss whether stormy daniels would be a good contested answer? i vaguely the recall hearing him say that she was at one at one of the people who may be an interesting contestant on that show and then last step today you had michael cohen's former banker, gary farro, a connect the dots kind of witness said that cohen coordinated with him to try to create an account for an llc that cohen would use to pay stormy daniels at 130,000 bucks. >> now from the transcripts, they tell you what the new account would be four answer the same for real estate and did he express any type of urgency and opening the account

answer every time moke michael cohen spoke to me, he gave a sense of urgency and this is one of those times answer, this is one of those times. let's talk about it now apart, federal prosecutor jean rossi here presented keith davidson, who actually negotiated the ndas with karen mcdougal and also stormy daniels, former trump attorney tim parlatore, and cnn legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, elliot williams, four republicans who your congressional advisor, reno shaw, and law enforcement reporter for the washington post devlin barrett. he's the also the author of the coauthor of the trump trials newsletter. so i want to begin with this idea of of gary farro because his testimony in many respects was why i think that people may not have anticipated they were thinking about michael cohen and stormy daniels are thinking about, of course, david pecker, maybe karen mcdougal talk to you about the decision to have this person testified, what was the weight of it well, number one, it was a friday and they

did not know. i agree. i mean, that it it would not have been in the interest of the prosecutors to call a big splashy witness who they would've had an hour of testimony and then had to cut off and resume on tuesday, not even monday the number one. number two, not all witnesses. a trials and you half of a sphere know this very well. not all witnesses at trials are splashy fact witnesses. you need people to come and talk about business practices, documents, and so on. and someone like kim could do that. not on like rhona graff did too. today that. we can talk about her, but two, she was only up for less than an hour on just a very few specific points. and that's it. and that's not a bad thing and it kept the pacing of the trial right. now, let's, talk about rhona graff. that was interesting to me in particular, because first of all, the experience of donald trump to be in this courtroom having long-term associates like david pecker, and then somebody who worked for him for 34 years. they were so close that she actually was on the platform for the inauguration. she talked about. that's how close relationship was. and many identify her as the

gatekeeper if you want to talk to him, talk to rode here, she is saying i don't want to be here. she's there from a subpoena. what impacted her testimony, have i think she connected a couple of hours for the prosecution, but i think she was also very effective defense witness because you have to remember new yorkers, especially the new yorkers, who have been there for awhile now, these are people that chances are. they've voted for mayor giuliani. they know donald trump from back when he was a real estate guy, from back when he did this celebrity apprentice, she has the opportunity to humanize him in to remind people of those old days of when he was that real estate developer humanizing part so important to talk about them as the he respected her intelligence, you wouldn't have been there for 30, four years had he hadn't he was a kind person. he was a a fair bas there was never a boring de, was a stimulating environment for her. what was the impact of her saying that about him given the context of this case? >> i think it goes to take the

jurors and take a little bit of that prejudice out of it to remind them of what kind of person he was. and what type of new york or they remember him as to maybe take people back a little bit so i do think that they were quite effective at that obviously it was important to kind of explain why is stormy daniel's in that in the context which again gives them an opportunity to go back and talk about the apprentice wasn't even there witness now. >> yeah. i mean, but definitely affect the board, the prosecution though. i mean, what did she do for that? >> well, i disagree a little bit with ellie and then i think a lot of prosecutors tried to have like a big hitter witness on the end of a friday because that stays with jurors and especially talking about long weekend, it saves them extra long. i think there was one really telling moment in the courtroom, width, rhona. that's when she was leaving the witness stand. >> she trump tried to shake her hand and rhona is sort understood. >> this is not the time or place for that. and i think that's important to me because

juror spend so much time and energy focused on this interactions of people jurors can't be told the law, they don't know a lot of intricacies of what's going on but they really focused in on how everyone interacts with each other. and i think that moment in front of the jury says a lot about how trump is trying to humanize themselves, and about how the people around him, even people like rhona who are sympathetic to him, or like, hey man, this is picture where we've got to pantomime beds by role-play so that will happened. so he reaches to shake her hand and she sort of acknowledges in, but she's not reaching back because she understands in that moment, like it's not a big it's not a big well, but she understands that moment like we're not like hugging, but i think it out here. i feel like if i were the defense, i'd be like, oh, my god, why would you do that? because it almost suggests that he is trying to kind of flutter her up, right they are remember jane, they aren't. she tests.

they are paying for her, counsel. >> it's just going to mention that ellie knows this jurors watch everything, everything in a courtroom day, i had a trial that was six weeks and we found out later jurors were talking about the hairdo of my lead agents special agent they look at everything and when they saw trump tried to shake her hand guaranteed if they do a poll or an interview, these jurors, half those jurors will see that moment and say that was reared and the reason it's weird, he's paid for her attorney and what he did when he tried to shake her hand. that's a subtle way of witness intimidation. if all mujer it's not violence, but it's kinda like, hey, i liked him. i see you. >> i don't know but i don't know about the witness intimidation. i do to agree that it's a terabyte but influence, it's definitely not something you'd want to do. it's something that i would definitely counsel my clients never to do because every

single thing from the moment you get up in the morning to the moment you get back into your apartment tonight, a juror can see you yeah and jurors have made decisions based on things they see on the street. and so the idea that this happens right in front of the jury is awful. >> i. mean even if she had received him well, it's not a good look. you know, i think either way it's it's better for you to self because he thinks he owns everyone? yes. and that is always the look for him, but i got to show that ownership. and if it's not ownership, it's loyalty because let's not forget how much he demands loyalty of everybody that's ever been in his universe. and so that to me is sort of a moment of like, how much does that hitting the people on the jury each individual's consciousness, right? of what is this moment between trump and former a person that was very close. it seems to everything that happened in his life, especially the salacious, very private moments. but i think when you're talking about the messaging of all this and how it really hits the average

person looking at this trial, particularly those who are right of center they just see this as a further dissection of a price if it life that doesn't need to be dissected. and i find that highly problematic. >> well, yeah, everyone stick around. we have a lot more to talk about on this because there's also an exclusive interview. sayyed kaitlan collins on cnn, the former attorney general, bill barr, saying that not only would he vote for trump but he also suggests mavi the point we're talking about, maybe how jurors in the court of public opinion might see this. he thinks are very sympathetic towards trump will get our palettes react to that as well. and by the way, if you might recall bill barr. yeah, he's the one who criticize trump's actions on january 6 and even ask the former president does it mocked him on social media earlier this week saying in part, quote, bill barr has just endorsed me for president despite the fact that i called him week slow moving, lethargic got less and lazy based on the fact that i greatly appreciate

his wholehearted endorsement. i am removing the word lethargic from my statement listen to what bill barr said the kaitlan collins i'm very disappointed that this country is stuck with this choice between two people. >> i don't think either of them should be president of the united states, but given that binary choice i feel i have to choose trump. >> but he's mocking you it's not about me. you said recently, which was that the conduct that was involved with donald trump, you said trying to subvert and prevent the progress, the execution of probably the most important process we have, which is the peaceful transfer of power after an election. name one thing that biden has done that's worse than that i think it's hollow administration is a disaster for the company is worse than subverting the peaceful transfer of power. >> it would did he succeed only because vice president mike

pence done the way and now the people who were lining up again say that they we'll not do what mike pence did. look, i was very loud and saying i thought it was a whole the whole episode was shameful. and i'm very troubled by and that's why it's not an easy this vision. but i think when you have a hobson's choice, you have to pick the lesser of two evils well, he was not lethargic in that. you could call it that there's some other things you could describe that i. >> mean, it is pretty amazing that that we are here. mean, we were just discussing this arena. i mean, bill barr continues to astounded the other interesting thing is that he doesn't actually ever have to come out and say these things and yet he does. he could keep it to himself after he's being mocked his way that's interesting that he does choose to come out. >> i mean, on television what the second or third time in a week, it's like he doesn't have to do this, but he's he's he wants to show america that

there is a step that's too far when you vote for joe biden. and i want to be honest when i say this, i think there's a real fear of a president harris and i think there's a massage one that's rooted there. i think there's a fear of the unknown because they just don't know what she'll represent. i've heard it in private conversations with many republican and love people say to me, well, what was it like working in the party for 15, 20 years growing up in it, you must have heard a lot misogyny and i said, wow, i don't look at it that way. but what i've heard in recent years, particularly in the past year, when we talk about biden's age being at the four is a deep hatred for kamala harris. >> and therefore painting biden out to be the worst choice of the two. >> so again, coming out and saying that i am so sure about this choice is the lesser of two evils. it shows me that he doesn't really believe in the rule of law. he doesn't believe in a country in which we look

at two candidates and we say one is for upholding what our founders wanted and the others for tearing it down. it's a binary choice. he's not willing to make. >> i'm curious what about the other part of this, which is actually about bill barr himself i mean, you cover doj. bill barr was bought for a lot of liberals considered to be someone who would basically a rubber stamp donald trump. he had a moment toward the end there where he wouldn't do that, but now he's back. he's come back around in this way think about what the next trump attorney general could look like if it's not a bill barr what is it? and our people inside the doj asking that question of themselves and wondering what it could mean for that agency, abby, i think about that a lot and i think a lot of people in doj have spent the last two plus years trying to build a system that could survive, or at least the things that they care the most about

woods survive in sort of sort of whoever the next attorney general bay, when bill barr was selected by trump originally, a lot of the republicans i spoke to in, the legal community said, well at least we didn't get janine pyrrho and i think that the next iteration of this should trump become president would not be bill barr. it won't be anyone with ties to the federal society or any of the sort of more traditional conservative legal circles it will be someone who is more of a rabble-rousing, someone who is more intense and wants to break more china to put it mildly and so i think there is a lot of concern about that. there is a lot of effort within this justice department leadership to try and put a lot of bubble wrap around that china as much as they is that working? >> we know it's transmit. this is a commentary. i think a lot of people criticize a notion of a two party system, right? that? the us, the idea the either, or that you could, you could be an appointee of donald

trump in a position that's not an even obscure cabinet official. you were the attorney general of the united states. you've seen two different presence. you've served under a different presidents and you said he should be nowhere near the oval office? you don't believe in him. you have criticized him to no end about his policies about the his character and the office. and yet you see, well, what my only choices is a democrat or him. so i gotta go with the republican and there are a number of people agree. ambassador bolton, who would say, famously, he wrote, he wrote in someone else or didn't want it say what he wanted to do because he was acknowledging that what he could not just hold one knows and swallow that just to me is a real criticism where it will exploratory notion of how closely we are tied to the idea of a two system. >> and having served under both republican, democratic presence in the justice marman, what's really interesting is that, yes and demos talking about this a little bit, there are shifts, a little bit in sort like the civil rights division will

prosecute different types of cases under different ministration. and that's fine. but the difference is both parties, at least the ones that i serve democratic and republican respected the institution and its goals and its aims. and the next sort of trump attorney general simply won't. and that's not i mean, i'm not going to criticism. it's a fact. it is bring bring in someone that does not believe that the james said so explicitly. the idea is to turn the place on its head. yeah, it started perhaps starting with doj. we have to take a quick break here, so everyone standby for us. donald trump is blaming his hush money trial for keeping him from celebrating melania, his wife's birthday, and up next there's some new reporting about her absence since from the courtroom. and also from the campaign ads, one of the photos that it's going to go down in history. donald trump sitting at his criminal trial, i got the photography for who snapped it with us tonight if you're 50 year

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absolutely. free text palo v0 to three-to-one, three-to-one. today the white house correspondents dinner, live tomorrow at seven eastern on cnn i want to start by wishing my life were you happy birthday? >> i simply with her, but i'm the coordinates for rape, drug

far i'll be going there this evening. answers case furnishes out with this horrible unconstitutional case that was donald trump today as he entered the courthouse. >> and that is not all he had to say publicly about his wife's birthday. he's also fundraising off of it, sending out this tax to his followers, quote, i'd love to be with millennia on her birthday, but instead, i'm stuck in court now. i want to bring in me pardon. she's a senior correspondent with the hill amy we could ask why millennia is not in court, but we know why this is a trial that is about porn stars and affairs and whatnot so when trump wishes her a happy birthday and says he wants to be with her, what's really going on behind the scenes? >> that's the thing i'll be the irony there is a pretty big and i think that what i when you talk to people and i have i

reported extensively for a story i just wrote. they he she supports him but she supports him politically. i don't think she supports him obviously. and what he's going through right now. i think the stormy daniels thing is one thing. i think she's very hurt and a lot of sources of told me she's very hurt by the karen mcdougal aspect of the case and that was something where he fast where she professed some love for him and it was ongoing she came into their home. so i think a lot of this is very awkward. i've heard from some sources that she's watching the trial obviously not very happy about some aspects of it. >> yeah. i mean, why would she be there's also though the issue of the campaign trail, i mean, even before all of this she has been completely absent really why is that and will that change? >> i don't expect when i talked to sources about this, she said stay tuned when she

was asked by a reporter or last month when she was voting with her husband alongside her husband in palm beach or reporter asked her, are you going to be on there? are you going to return to the campaign trail and she said, stay tuned and she smiled and people thought, well, maybe she will be so far. she's only done one fundraiser last week at my our logo. she wasn't really going that far. was that their residents and a lot of people don't expect people close to hur, who are familiar with her views on the political stage are basically telling us that they don't expect her to do much in terms of campaigning. it's just not good thing she's taken a very non-traditional role as a first lady and as a campaigner in chief's wife? >> yeah, we then look cheat she wasn't exactly the most omnipresent campaign or any of the times that he ran for president. >> but a lot of trump's family has taken a step back from this

particular campaign. >> the other thing about melania trump is that she and trump actually were very close when it came to seeing eye to eye on the policy on sometimes on the strategy, even on the toe and have some of the things that he did do you get the sense that she still has that kind of influence over his thinking and over how he approaches the things that come his way. >> she does. she has his ear and he listens to her for the most part. he takes it seriously. she's been bandying about names, for instance i'm on who he should pick for vice president. she did that in the past every time there's an issue that comes up, she gets right in his ear and talks to him about it. according to sources. so she's still very much involved. she's still very much in the mix, although she doesn't really deal with the campaign on this, you will go straight to her huts let's spend i mean, i would not expect anything less of a wife. i would think maybe parts good

to see you. thank you. thanks and our panel is, back with us gene, the absence of melania and really any other family members of donald trump's in a trial in general, but maybe not so much in a trial like this. what does it mean? >> i'm going i'm gonna offend donald trump on this one strongly when you have a case like this, where obviously it's salacious, it's hush money and all that i think a jury would see the presence of her family and millennia as a little bit uncomfortable because i've had i did a lot of prosecutions and in certain cases, you don't want your family there so if she's not in the courtroom i don't think that sends any message other than they don't want to embarrass melania by listening to david pecker, can you imagine if she were in a courtroom here and all this? or she's an a core and when storming it would make anybody

and are a d or an independent or a vegetarian uncomfortable. and i got to say this about melania on monday, of course but i really feel sorry for her because she's she's going through a hard time and hard time. >> i mean, we were just talking about how the jury is they have nothing else to do but watch the room like a hawk. can you imagine what it would be like to have? of the man's wife sitting there in the audience. what a thing to be able to look at as all of this as being ready exactly he's absolutely right. >> it is something that's unnecessary. it's uncomfortable. it's something you don't want to put her through. and it's something that could potentially have a negative impact on the jury so i understand that. i mean, i know that she does support them very much. i mean, she was she made a point back when i was there to call me and jim trusty over to talk to us to meet us and to show her support for

what we were doing absolutely wonderful person, loved, loved meeting her was terrified when she called me over. but other than that so i do think it makes sense i guess i i could see a different approach to this. >> and on the one hand there could be jurors were looking at this and saying, well, if she doesn't, she's not here, she hasn't believed them. number one, and probably other part of it, it could be this isn't juries can speculate about this other part could be if i'm defense counsel, i may very well not want any member of the family in the courtrooms that i can turn for closing arguments. >> otherwise and say, you know, why the family is not here. this exactly what he was trying to avoid when he did catch and kill stories. your point earlier today fine. >> all of this, he did find we're catching killers in everything else while he was trying to prevent the embarrassment to his family. they can't even be in the courtroom. that's how awful this is for them to hear this.

now that may or may not be true for this family, but it would be a strategic tactic for the defense to try to point it out. i don't know how it plays, but it's a possibility. >> no, that's interesting. so i think a couple of things. one i've seen it. you see it in mob cases, you see it when you have the family members in the room, naturally they can't help but react and often react very loudly they do because it's, and it's hurtful to watch someone you love be beaten up and pick to pardon, talked about in a horrible way. so number one, it's just creating an uncertainty he that's not good to i do wonder with such high-profile figures, if injecting her into the courtroom create something that then you would have had to ask the jury about at jury selection. do you have a strong opinion about the president's family, not just the president himself. now, normally, that wouldn't be a basis for throwing out a conviction, but these are such outside as figures that it's at least worth the question. and it wouldn't be out of the question for the prosecutors. do at least one array they do. they do. does she show well i

mean, if i say, i think the jury questionnaire covered the trump family and donald trump, but not one member of the family not. >> has been here but not none the family i don't know what i'm saying is the asking the jury their feelings about the family, not him i think that was part i think you have to think of another way of thinking about this problem which is unique to this defendant, which is if he has his family behind him, any members of his family, his own behavior may change because of the types of things being talked about here, we saw an e. jean carroll that he can get worked up and that he can be his own worst enemy. in a courtroom in front of a jury, in front of a judge if his family is sitting behind him, while some of these things are being talked about. i don't know. and tim would know far better than me. i'm not assuming to get the man's brain, but like i would worry as his lawyer that my client might be a problem if his family is behind, there are so many so many different

unmitigated risks of having her there and i mean so to say i do believe that she supports through this based on my experience, but as a trial lawyer, as much as i like having the families there and i've had the same experiences as you describe where sometimes i've had to turn around and tell the wife, hey sit out, try and try and keep a straight face but in this case, it's such such a complex web of unmitigated risk i disagree. >> i mean, i think we're forgetting who we're talking about here. this is probably when the only first ladies in modern history who is devoid of any expression on her face. most times you out in public, i mean, to me, she's never been a stand by your man type of person. we had four for years to see that and i never really saw the empathetic behavior of a truly caring, loving spouse that was putting out the hand that was even doing the public shows, if you will, of of any

affection. i mean, she famously swatted his hand away one time again, the lack of expression and let's not forget the jacket she wore to the children's detention center, the border. i don't really care. do you this is who melania trump is in nutshell. i mean, her family and she have always had a meal ticket to donald through donald trump to this a great life in this country. she likes that life. she's private about that life. and i don't think she really cares that she doesn't have to be at that trial assuming that saying is true. yeah. i'm not necessarily agreeing with you, but even that is yet another unmitigated risk of having her in well. >> and a lot more guesser some opinions tonight people stick around, everyone. >> they say a picture is worth 1,000 words with no video cameras and sayyed trump's hush money trial. these might be worth all the much more. >> the photographer was snaps the former present in the court room joins us next every piece

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free text dra w to 369369. today i'm omar jimenez at columbia university, and this is cnn donald trump is a man who ever, never actually size weight from the camera case in point, the mug shot. now, the average person might not want the world to see something like this, but not trump. he's used this image, the first mug shot of an american president as a fundraising and camp payne tool. it's happening again now, here we are smack dab in the middle of trump's hush money trial. >> well, maybe the middle, but every opportunity he gets to mug for the cameras on his daily john, to the court has always. >> he certainly takes he glares that the cameras for daily photos inside the courtroom. but if you were hungry for more this is all you're gonna get because video cameras are not

allowed inside that courtroom. so the best we've got to show is a history-making trial is to the eyes of well, my next guest joining us now, curtis means photographer for the daily mail. curtis, i'm so glad that you're here. are you have taken some of the most consequential in historic pictures now that we might ever see from an american president standing trial, i've just got to know not many people can get as close as you've been able to get and i'm wondering what's happening at the time you're taking these photographs, is he is he glaring, is his demeanor that way when you're taking it, what's going on in that moment. >> so we enter the courtroom, we immediately get in front of the defendants debts in front of the desk. as you see in this image here, he basically it looks directly into the cameras. i think he's very, very used to the cameras being focused on him. and so he knows where to look. he looks from wine. one photographer to another photographer to another photographer, always making

sure to me it seems that he's, you know, he's always making sure that he's making eye contact with the photographers. >> now, you guys are only showing us the pictures when he's not smiling. i'm assuming he's not smiling as demeanor is not changing. it's this, as you say right sometimes he's smiling, sometimes he's not smiling at so a lot, we edit the pictures, obviously. >> so sometimes we put some of the pictures that is smiling in. sometimes he's not smiling. so you added the pictures. you mean you just you choose which one you choose which ones? yeah, exactly. exactly. so can you explain what it's like when you're in this courtroom one of the big concerns that the judge certainly had, and juror is being selected. had was the idea that their anonymity would be compromised? you have a camera in the courtroom when trump is there, but not when the jury is present, right? >> that is correct. exactly. >> door do we shoot any of the jurors with it in the hallway? >> so during the jury selection process, we always have our cameras dow where the jurors were passing by the photographers pins. so we never

ever focused any cameras on any jurors can you explain how you actually get into the courtroom as a journalist, photographer, what does that process like so we arrive at the court several photographers arrived at the court earlier in the morning. >> we're going to pull situation and not name is already on the list, which is given to the court administrators and the court offices we check in the front of the courthouse, we wait there for a couple of minutes and then we go through a magnetometer downstairs. most of the time when we're in the courts though if you work in the courts daily, you have what we call a hard passes secure pads which allows you to go past the magnetometers, but in the case of trump we have everyone has to go through two magnetometers. where do you have a secure password? not once you get past that first set of magnetometers you're escorted into an elevator up to the floor where that case is happening and you go to another series of magnetometers and there you go into a pin to get set up for his arrival. >> what does it been like for you? capturing history? >> it is, it is very surreal. i have to say, i mean, it's

obviously as the nauta, but it is very surreal to be shooting of a former president in a criminal trial how do you notice, by the way, on any particular de that his demeanor has been different from the other days you have photographed them and if so when some that well, it seems to me and this is only my take it seems to be as time is going by his he seems to be looking a little tired, like i guess this must be wearing on him have you noticed him sleeping we're not in the courtroom. it will be the reporters who would notice them sleeping once we finish taking a series of pictures of him, when he arrives, the jury comes in and where escorted out of the courtroom. so we'd never actually get to see that and is he ever speak with you when you're taking the photograph? >> he will he will not he will he will acknowledge you. i think he's kinda used to the group of photographers that are coming in shooting him every day and he i mean, he's cordial. he he nods and acknowledges you i got to ask this question because you

can't capture this in the picture, isn't really as cold as they keep complaining about in this courtroom, curtis, i admitted that courtroom several times that it is not called. maybe here maybe we need to raise the humidity level up to florida standards. >> there you go. >> it's like the whole thing. it's okay. it's hot. it's dry here, i guess it's okay. that's the way they go about it. curtis means are looking at your photographs and really the moment it's you're capturing, we've never seen anything like it before. and here we are in this historic moment and you are the man behind the lens. thank you so much for joining us. thank you for having me. thanks so much. well, a big announcement from president biden i don't know if you're going to debate your opponent. >> i am somewhere i don't know well, now donald trump is responding with a venue suggestion that's raised some eyebrows. that's next live from the nation's capital, one of the most unforgettable

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collin dusty dander, all that time. they could have protected me. >> mallory's mattress protectors, what, 99.9% of dirt, dust and allergens for cleaners ease had allergies find it where you buy bedding i'm natasha bertrand at the pentagon. >> and this is cnn that have invited biden to debate. >> anytime they want occluding tonight. ready? do we find just tell me where i will do it in the white house that would be very comfortable actually a face off at the white house isn't exactly going to happen, but donald trump and the president appear to be ready to actually debate in 2024 after previously saying that it would depend on trump's behavior, biden today he told howard stern that he is quote, happy to face off against trump. when and where. well, that is to be determined now, remember, in normal times there are three presidential debates are in an election cycle in 2020, there happened to the only been to

one was big cat because trump had covid and of course it was canceled during the panel. now, meghan, hey, it's where it says into president biden and senior data reporter, harry enten is here as well. harry, this wasn't a thing reminds us what happened when the two debated back in 2020, i believe there is a certain term you might use that we can't use on our aerosol, merely saying it was a craft shop i remember i was sitting on my buddy gnomes couch because the fact was we had limited contact with google because remember, it was during covid and governor noem no, no, no, no, no. >> i i liked dogs and i was staying with someone who likes dogs, so it wasn't governor nham, it was my buddy nham drawer either way. i remember sitting on his couch and just watching the two of them go at it. and donald trump just interrupting it every single term. in fact, the tally showed that donald trump interrupted either joe biden or moderator chris wallace north of 90 times during that debate, it was the nutty as thing. i've ever seen after which there were curse words flying on cnn and it

isn't so surprising when you go back and watch some of those interruptions, i believe have some of those. so let's take a listen what does it mean for them going forward if he strike down the affordable care act? >> 308,000 military people dying because you couldn't provide them proper health care once he do with burisma, son of hundred and 80,000 on a mansour, if not, none of that that is true. it's really president. the question justice brandeis to the left, would you show me son who is on your list? you don't you write, gentlemen, i think let's pack i remember that. but i know it really did bring you right back. you see that moment. >> what what what a time for this country. i mean, trump leave seen him with biden. we've seen him with hillary clinton what what did, the voters think when they see trump and his demeter? it's a very specific aggressive demeanor on that debate stage

absolutely is. >> i think we have these memories of trump squashing all over jeb bush and those fellow republicans during 2016. and we get this idea that the debates help trump but that is not in fact been the case during the general election. if you go back to 2016, you go back to 2020. the first debates and you'll look at the difference in the polls before the debates and afterwards, you see actual bumps for hillary clinton on the order of about five points in 20164 points for joe biden during 2020 so yeah, those debates were absolutely crazy. they were quite entertaining. but at the end of the de, did they help donald trump? no, they did not, at least according to the polling data, mega, there are those who say the including former speech writer for president bush wrote in the atlantic, david from that biden should not debate trump. and here's why he said quote, president biden spokesperson should answer like this. the constitution is not debatable. the president does not participate in forums with a person under criminal indictment for his attempt to overthrow the constitution. do you cosine that advice?

>> i mean, whether or not the president debates, it's really irrelevant. i think the problem here is that donald trump does toxin lies and so it leaves joe biden in a really awkward position because what are you supposed to do? interrupt every time like we saw in 2020 or do you just continue to correct him every single time that gets exhausting, right. nobody wants to see that. that doesn't help anybody to your point. it doesn't help in the polls for him. i'm not sure why donald trump wants to debate him. i think it's just all normal rhetoric that he's just continuing to say and i don't actually think that he has any interest it's intubating joe biden travel to buy-side because of his his perception is that joe biden is not as strong as him, has issues with his either memory or other demeanor issues. he wants that side-by-side. but is that biden avoiding that side-by-side or trump? >> i don't think that donald trump wants that side-by-side when we get down to it, he's four years younger. that is not different when you are 70 something years old, they are the same age. they have the same issues, but the issue here is that donald trump toxin lies. and so what is what is the president is supposed to do at that point? i don't think it

actually is going to help him in the polling, so i think that he's going to avoid it. he also dropped out of the presidential debate commission. he has no interest in debating joe biden slightly different topic, rfk jr. was on bill maher tonight and he was asked about being a spoiler candidate. >> listen to what he said because a lot of times people labor ols line or friends me, you need to get out of the race biden run, because otherwise president trump is going on. >> they never a let. biden run because he has a cognitive capacity and a vigor and energy and a vision for a future that is going to really change things hi man sure. >> but also can he win? because i haven't seen evidence that he can. >> well, i mean, number one, the ballot issue was a problem, but also what's he talking about these days? that's promising, hopeful interjects between the two of these people. because look, i think if i didn't want to get into a debate with trump, he could.

well, if you bring the version of himself that he brought to the last day of the union. he could do some really good there, but he could tear down that presumption of innocence innocence, excuse me, that donald trump enjoys every day of the week right now biden could do that, where's rfk on all of this? he has had many entry points and he makes none. it's all of this talk in fact, it's actually very self-centered. if you listen, rfk jr. it's all about well, everybody wants something else, but what are you four? because at the end of the day, what we saw in 2016, that first time and what we saw in 2020 22 from biden, people want an action and i go back to that build a wall language. so rfk jr. needs to give something tangible at this point. it's just all a lot of talk, hype. and again, no ballot access enough to really make a difference. >> also, just thinking about if it's, if it isn't back going trump, but it is trump and it is biden who is gonna be the running mate for donald trump. i mean, the veepstakes are continuing it had some mar-a-lago, by the way, next

friday and all of these republicans, by the way, who are reportedly on trump's vip shortlist, are going to be attending. i don't know if this is going to be like a hunger games scenario or something else or anything. i don't know what's gonna be, but because i can succession or game of thrones airway, it feels like something's cook and i'll tell you that much. i look this to me is so interesting because it's not just about picking the vp for this time around. if donald trump wins and the polls and a swing states suggests that he has a very good shot of doing that. this is setting up the republican nominee for next time around. but in terms of this particular cycle, let's see how low these different potential republican vp nominees will go to defend donald trump what will they say to get on donald trump's good sayyed, because we've seen a lot of people who are up here, then they try and please donald trump, and they end up all the way underneath the table. will one of these vp he potential vp nominees sort of sell themselves out to police. donald trump will just have to wait and see on the next episode of apprentice exactly.

>> that's a good. i like that. let's that's it. >> thanks. everyone. but we've got tomorrow night. don't miss the un live coverage of the white house correspondence in her hair. and i will actually be live from the red carpet with john berman their assigned are hosting, starting it at 7:00 p.m. you may or may not have abby phillip cameo can't wait to see it. thanks for watching everyone. cnn's coverage phase with anderson cooper next today it's better outside with the ninja woodfire exhale berlin smoker multitask with an injured pro connect math monitor, control code from your phone could do proteins to different levels of done this at the same time, it's better outside with ninja for your

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