harlem had everything, but i couldn't find a lot is anywhere. >> so i started my own studio and with the right help, i can make i love even better, earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials, but you chasing business cash card from chase for business. >> i had to go montgomery and tokyo and this is cnn this is cnn breaking news and welcome back to the lead all in this hour in the law and justice lead and this big day for donald j. >> trump, two of his criminal cases were in courtrooms at the same time. there is, of course, a manhattan hush money cover up, pile up and manhattan testimony just wrapped up for the day former tabloid publisher with the david pecker is expected to be back on the stand for a fourth day tomorrow. the defense is having their chance with him. then of course, here in washington, dc, trump's immunity battle was before for the us supreme court. questions from the justices to trump's defense team suggest they're not sold on trump's argument that he should have absolute immunity

from any kind of criminal prosecution related to any action from when he was president you began by explaining why you believe that immunity from criminal prosecution is essential for the proper functioning of the presidency but my question is whether the very robust form of immunity that you're advocating is really necessary in order to achieve that result. if the potential for criminal liability is taken off the table wouldn't there be a significant risk that future presidents would be emboldened to commit crimes with abandon while they're in office in addition to these two cases, there's also a brand new criminal indictment from arizona in an alleged to attempt to overturn the 2020 election in that state. this one charges 18 different individuals, eight trump allies from his inner circle and 11

republican electors in arizona. arizona secretary of state he's gonna join me this hour to discuss, but let's start this hour with that immunity case before the us supreme court today. and we'll bring in cnn's evan perez and paula reid and paula, it appears the supreme court might end up with some sort of middle ground here, because many justices seemed skeptical of trump's absolute immunity claim that anything he did in office that wasn't personal, like falls into official duties. although and his attorney kind of granted them that it seems, but they also seemed unwilling to greenlight the january 6 trial altogether. >> yeah. good news. bad news for trump first of all, it's clear the majority of justices are not willing to just toss the special counsel's case, but that a lot of questions about these official acts versus private acts. and we heard, as you noted, trump's own attorneys conceded that some of the details in the indictment are in fact, not official acts. so how do you assess out which are official and which are private? well,

that's the problem because chief justice roberts, for example, clearly doesn't think that the lower courts, particularly court of appeals, did enough analysis to suss that out. let's take a listen to what he said. >> why shouldn't we either send it back to the court of appeals or issue an opinion making clear that that's not the law. >> but i am defending the court of appeals judgement and i do think that there for our layered safe cards that the court can take into account that will ameliorate concerns about unduly chilling presidential conduct that concerns us we are not endorsing a regime that we think would expose former presidents to criminal prosecution in bad faith for political animus without adequate evidence it doesn't appear that the justices completely by that. >> so what it appears they are poised to do is set up some kind of test and then kick the entire case back down to the lower courts to analyze again, which are official acts, which

are private acts. but that additional litigation would take time. we don't know how long it's going to take think the supreme court for this decision, we don't know how long that litigation is going to take. but again, every delay benefits trump because if he's reelected, he can make both of his federal cases go away. >> we have in this case is very much about donald j. trump, right? it's called in the supreme court donald j. trump, petitioner versus united states. but many of the justices, if not most of them, seemed very, very focused on the precedent this case could set for future presidents, right? >> and just, just because they kept going back to that point, i think it's a it's a big win, frankly for the former president because that's one of the things his, his lawyers kept arguing. they kept saying that if you allow this to go forward this way, that other presidents could face prosecution for any acts they committed in office. and so you'll hear, justice gorsuch describing what he says he sees at play here. listen i'm not

concerned about this case, but i am concerned about future uses of the criminal law to target political opponents based on accusations about their motives whether it's reelection or who knows what corrupt means in 15, 12 right? >> we don't know what that means maybe we'll find out sometime soon. but the dangerousness of accusing europe political opponent of having bad motives and if that's enough to overcome your core powers or any other limits and listen, i mean, one of the most bizarre parts of the today, it's sort of was i think one of the justices raises the prospect that a president might want to commit acts illegal acts, in order to remain in power. >> what does that remind you of, right i know what it's like. they're talking about the 2020 election and this case that we're talking about, right? so it's clear that

they're very much focused on this idea that there would be a cycle of retribution. and again, that's something that donald trump and his team i've have repeatedly raised interesting, thanks so much to both of you. >> let's bring in josh massey is a former clerk for justice, anthony kennedy, and a former attorney for e. jean carroll, also still with us. jim schultes, who served as white house counsel for donald trump so josh, let me start by playing the argument that trump attorney d. john sauer made before the court. take a listen. >> the implications of the court's decision here, extend far beyond the facts of this case could president george w bush have been sent to prison for obstructing an official proceeding or allegedly lying to congress to induce war in iraq could president obama be charged with murder for killing us citizens abroad by drone strike? could president biden someday be charged with unlawfully inducing immigrants

to enter the country illegally for his border policies the answer to all these questions is no prosecuting the president for his official acts is an innovation with no foothold in history or tradition. and incompatible with our constitutional structure. >> so joshua, what's your reaction to that argument maria x of his own case. >> and that he's really trying to paint the picture of some kind of dystopian future where former presidents or prosecuted with abandoned for all sorts of partisan reasons. the problem with his example is that i kind of agree with him. know, those presidents could not be prosecuted on any of those grounds. but not because of absolute immunity, but instead because of other protections within our legal system, which is a point that the lawyer representing the justice department, i thought made very effectively and i think coming off of this argument, the big question is whether the court can find a way between the

fairly extreme view that everything the president does is covered with absolute immunity, with the view on the other side that nothing the president does is covered with immunity. and presidents can be prosecuted for any crime after they leave office. the rest, this is clearly disagreed about how to strike that balance. and i think it'll be tough to see whether they can arrive at a resolution that allows the case to move forward in a timely manner. but but i think the position that mr. serra was taking in that clap is just wildly overbroad. so the newest justice, ketanji brown, jackson had this warning if the court ultimately finds that presidents do have abs immunity, take a listen if someone with those kinds of powers, the most powerful person in the world with the greatest amount of authority could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes. >> i'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the oval office into the seat of criminal activity in this country.

>> so gym, if a president does have absolute immunity, what incentive might the president have for following the law other than the honor system and is good grace. and wouldn't it essentially just state that the president is above the law? >> yes. is the answer that but i do agree with the points that were made earlier and i think it's important to note that the core powers of the presidency, and there are protections there for the core powers of the presidency. and i think that's an important important point that was just made. i also think it's important to note that the office of legal counsel, they've referred back the office of legal counsel, that for all all administrations, that there was this idea that the president could be held criminally liable for certain types of criminal conduct. so that isn't something new. this isn't that narrative that this is something new, just isn't the case. and i think what could happen here if they it's time to go down the road of st. what's official what's not,

and it gets remanded back to the trial court. then what's the trial court do? it do with it? well, what they'll do is hold an evidentiary hearing, which if they hold an evidentiary hearing, bring in witnesses and making that determination, you can have a mini trial within the trial at the end of the day that relates to all of this conduct, which would be a public forum again, bringing out all of these things that happened on january 6. so if they get a remand, yes, it may kick can down the road, but all of these issues that came out of january 6 will be relived in that evidentiary hearing. >> interesting. >> there was a lightning round of questions in which justice amy coney barrett, a trump appointee, got trump's attorney to concede that the indictment and lists acts by donald trump allegations of behavior that would not be covered by presidential immunity because they were private acts take a listen petitioner turned to a private attorney, was willing to spread knowingly false claims of election fraud to spearhead is

challenges to the election results private, as we dispute the allegation by sounds private took sounds private. >> sinner conspired with another private attorney who caused the filing and court of a verification signed by petitioner that contain false allegations to support a challenge so sounds private three private actors to attorneys, including those mentioned above, and a political consultant helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding and petitioner and a coconspirator attorney directed that effort you ready to quickly i believe that's private joshua, what do you make of that concession? >> does that mean i mean, it just sounds like oh, he is granting that this stuff isn't covered by immunity. therefore, at least some of this stuff can go forward in court. but i think i'm wrong about that. but that's what it sounds i'd like to meet this non-lawyer i don't think you're wrong about it. >> i thought it was an extraordinarily important concession, and i thought it was telling that justice barrett was the conservative justice who was by far the most skeptical of donald trump's

position. i think those concessions open up a really significant question. right everybody seems to agree that the indictment against trump alleges a number of acts that were private in the sense that there's no real claim that they're covered by absolute immunity. and? justice barrett floated this compromise. if you want to call it that at the argument where she said, well, look, what what if you just drop all of the stuff that's official or that maybe official. could you just go to trial with the acts that everybody agrees are private and that seems to be a way of potentially getting around some of the big issues here. that in turn opens up this big debate about even if they did that, could all of the official acts which provide essential context and color for the entire conspiracy that's alleged. could those be brought in as evidence? and the justice department said yes. and trump said no if the supreme court wants to think about it quickly path for this case to move forward. and one that avoids some of the really thorny questions about what acts are official and what x aren't. it

could potentially remal for consideration, at least of an expedited trial focused on the private acts. although i think it would really need to give some guidance there about whether the non-private acts can still be heard by the jury as evidence, even if they can't be a separate basis from liability. >> whereas the name you a quick final thought. >> so i really think in the context and they use the example of switching out the attorney general. so the attorney general can issue these letters that there was some type of widespread voter fraud, right? i think that's that would trump team would argue that that's an official act. right? but it's like anything else when you're talking about an appointment, right? a core power. but if you're taking a bribe for that appointment, it's the bribe that's the cry. right. so when you're talking about switching out the attorney general to do something that another attorney general wouldn't do because it's unlawful. that's when you get into the crux of the crime. so i do think that that's there is some exposure there, which is why i don't think they're

just going to blow past that idea of what's official and what's private. >> we'll say thanks to both. you really appreciated the underlying case before the us supreme court was about donald trump's actions on the day of the capitol attack while he was president. the now house january 6 committee also investigated his actions that they were going to get reaction to today's arguments from a former member of that committee, stay with us work play link relief, work, play. >> blank. really, the only three in one extended release formula for dry eyes this home-style chicken salad ran from subway. this is how you do it savory chicken. chris veggies, all wrapped up. these maps are amazing people can hear my thoughts that's a problem. >> stay fresh out. they're all new reps from subway it st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer.

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captioning brought to you by mesobook.com are firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelial call us now while the focus of much of this de, has been in courtrooms in new york and here in washington dc, moments ago at emory university in atlanta, georgia seen such as this one as protests on college campus the war in the middle east continued to spread. >> cnn's gabe cohen he is right now at gw university, george washington university here in washington game. what's going on where you are? >> yeah. so jake, we're right in the middle of this encampment on gwas campus. uh, take a look. we're gonna give you like a three full three 60 view here. there's a really large crowd occupying this part of this quad here on the campus. it's private property. the university sent campus police here earlier, try to

clear out students the students refused, and now we understand that the school has called in dc's police department, metropolitan police, who are going to be arriving here. we expect around seven and they have said they are going to clear these students out. i've spoken with organizers who have said they're prepared to stay. they do not want to leave, even if police tell them they're going to and that they are prepared to potentially get arrested and come back if they're initially cleared out interesting these protesters spreading to campuses. all over the country. it seems yeah, that's right. >> you mentioned emory. we've seen it at columbia usc. it is happening all over northwestern just to name a few. and speaking with organizers and students here, there's clearly that inspiration, that there has been this organization here. and to be clear, these are students not just from gw, this is these are students from georgetown, a big group that came over this afternoon as well as other schools around the dc area. and they said they

were inspired by what they saw at columbia at some of these other schools. and so we're seeing this major seen here. we may see it continue, even after they're cleared because these students are saying they're prepared to come back. jake, have you talked to any of the students? >> what what are they exactly? >> calling for? and has it been a peaceful demonstration we want to make sure every i apologize. >> we do have a really loud speaker behind us, but yes, it has been peaceful up to this point but again police have been sort of standing by on the side campus police, secret service police metropolitan police. we don't know what will happen around 7:00 when a much larger group of dc police officers are expected to come here with the purpose of getting these students out so you talked to some of the students about what are they going to do if the police demand that they leave where they are right now, tell us about that. well, jake, if we

have it, i did speak with an organizer a little while ago. who talked about that? i asked directly, what are you going to do when police arrived if they tell students you need to leave now or be arrested? go listen, this is what you told me are you prepared to stay here even if police demand that you leave or be arrested? >> i am prepared to stay here until our demands are met yeah. >> and so we heard that repeatedly in from other students as well. people saying they're ready to put themselves on the line, essentially and look, we have seen those romantic scenes. jake, videos that you have played as other cnn shows have played showing students, protesters on these campuses clashing with police officers i have been at various pro-palestinian in protests across the dc area here in recent months metropolitan police, the dc police department, there are no strangers to this. i've seen a lot of arrests. the question is, what is going to be that

response from both sides when the officers come in, when they give those warnings to students, we may see a lot of students leave in that moment. but the question is what will that look like? >> and i believe he here i believe the footage we are just showing there with the police with guns was at emory university, not at gw. i gave going thanks so much for checking in. appreciate it. we're gonna go back to the big day at the supreme court and the pending decision on donald trump pushing for presidential immunity. we're going to have reaction from a former member of the january 6 committee plus donald trump's former secretary of defense. that's next day with us chasing life. >> dr. sanjay gupta, listen wherever you get your podcast. >> hey, they're brenda it's carroll exactly which like are we operating on? >> you mean arm? >> it's all connected asking the right question can greatly impact your future. >> you share your an orthopedist. >> actually, i'm a sagittarius, especially when it comes to your finances, give a question a us certified

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acts. >> that is a key question that the us supreme court rankled with today, diving into all sorts of hypotheticals such as canada president order the military to assassinate a political rival. can he or she ordered the military to stage a coup? while those situations might seem far-fetched, it's worth remembering what candidate trump said in a 2016 presidential debate. >> general michael hayden, former cia director nsa director, and other experts have said that when you ask the us military to carry out some of your campaign promises, specifically targeting terrorists, families, and also the use of interrogation methods more extreme than water aborting. the military will refuse because they've been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders. so what would you do as commander in chief if the us military refused to carry out those orders, they will refuse they're not going

to refuse a day later, the trump campaign walk that back in a statement saying quoted as clear that as president, i will be bound by laws, just like all americans and i will meet those responsibilities on quote, joining us now, the secretary of defense for donald trump and mark esper, who served on the board or as a strategic advisor? >> so to handful of aerospace and defense related company secretary esper as a former trump senior official what was it like listening to the supreme court as they debated these hypotheticals today that may be didn't seem all that hypothetical. >> well, good afternoon, jake. i think first and foremost, it was a very serious debate and discussion for the small parts that i heard about it. and what i read about it. >> as i like to say that i hate these examples being brought up about somehow the military being ordered to engineer a coup or the use of the military to kill a political opponent. >> it's just so outlandish. it's utterly ridiculous and i

wish we would stay away from those examples and maybe look at more serious ones. >> but it was clear at the the court had teased out tthere is a difference between immunity for official conduct and then no immunity for personal conduct and justice. >> amy coney barrett really put trump's defense attorney on the spot and he conceded that& in a series of charges that she raised and he conceded the private points of it. so i think there is obviously a distinction the president is not above the law. no american second is above the law, and i think that is an important principle that should guide us going forward. >> so in response to these questions before the us supreme court right now, three groups, a former military and national security officials filed. friends of the court a brief which reads, in part, quote, any military officers who knowingly issued are carried out such an unlawful order would themselves be criminally liable, unquote. in your decades of experience in the military and a secretary of defense, do you think a

situation could ever arise where a soldier or a general is commanded to do something. they know is illegal, but they do it anyway because they were given direct orders look, nothing's ever impossible, but i find it very hard to believe that a senior officer in the united states military, or even a junior officer for that matter, would obey an illegal order. i went to west point so many years it's on active duty and then on reserve duty as well. >> and it is drilled into our heads into the ethics of the profession that you don't obey. a lawful, unlawful orders, and that you have a duty to resist, to oppose them and so i believe that's ground into our, into our military across all the services. it's part of the culture. it's also part of the fundamental and are principal at their civilian control, the military, but there's a limit when it comes to unlawful order. so i've just don't believe that to be the case. i think the fact that this professional military ethic, the understanding of the duties of the military to not follow

unlawful orders would prevail and look, i faced that in some ways, you might recall in january 20 2020 or so president trump made a statement about the united states will attack iran historical and cultural sites. and i went on tv and said, no, we will not do that. we're going to follow the laws of land warfare. and i felt it important at that time to make a statement that not just to the american public, but really to the united states military are professional armed forces that we will continue to follow. the laws of land warfare and un honor the obligations and legal obligations of our profession. >> before you go, i want to get your reaction to some news out of gaza today. israel says that quote terrorists shot mortars at a humanitarian worksite in northern gaza towards this pier that the us is trying to construct this pier would be there to get more humanitarian aid into gaza by sea the un is

characterizing this as a minor incidents. if you were secretary defense right now, how might you respond? >> i'd be very concerned and look, i was concerned from day one speaking about this on cnn that a major factor here is the vulnerability of our forces. you're talking about 1,000 service members or so constructing this pier, this period is gonna be relatively narrow, but it's going to stretch up to 1,800 feet. >> up until the mediterranean in order to connect the floating pier to the vessels that will be offloading cargo a little bit further away. >> and so they're quite open to both direct fire. >> think about rifles, machine guns, but indirect fire, which are mortars and artillery. >> and that's what we saw today. and of course, you could shoot moore's artillery for miles, miles away without attribution and cause harm to us forces kill service members if not, that you could destroy the peer quite easily. and certainly disrupt operations. i think it is a very big vulnerability. i'm not sure we've worked out all the issues and keep in mind, you also have to deal with that threat from the sea now too. so

these are big issues i'll be very concerned. i wanted i've talked closely with the israelis about security, both at the pier at the site and on the peer during operations secretary esper, good to see you. >> thanks so much. >> supreme court justice clarence thomas chose to not recuse himself in this case, despite the fact that his wife ginni, had communications with the white house after the 2020 election about undermining the election. >> i'm gonna i asked my next guest about that, plus another big case with ties to donald trump, the new charges against 18 individuals from arizona, including trump allies such as mark meadows and rudy giuliani, and 11 fake electors. we'll be right back. >> amelia, turn off the alarm amelia, whether reasons emilia unlock the door, i'm afraid i can't do that by, not did you forget something i protein shake. >> the future isn't scary.

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for renters download self to start today this is cnn the world's news we're back today. >> the us supreme court dissected former president trump's claim that he has absolute immunity and out of free, get out of jail, free card for any official action that it would completely dismantled the federal election subversion case against him listen to how the attorney representing the us government, and special counsel jack smith, laid it out his novel fury would immunize former president's for criminal

liability for bribery, treason, sedition, murder. >> and here, conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results seven election and perpetuate himself in power such presidential immunity has no foundation in the constitution the framers knew too well the dangerous of a king who could do no wrong congresswoman zoloft granted from california, joins me now she was a key member of the january 6 committee. congresswoman laughlin justices signaled today that they were skeptical of trump's claim that he had complete immunity for anything he did. that was an official act. but they also pushed back on how the special counsel framed the case how likely do you think it is that the court's going to try to reach a middle ground ruling that might push this trial beyond november's election, or that they might kick it back to the lower court that will also prolong all of this well i've

got. to say jake, the court is not looking impartial or non-partisan at this point. >> they didn't need to take this case at all. the appellate court decision was tightly drawn in correct. they didn't take it early on once they gave an indication. are they dragged it out? really the debate today showed a very serious problem, which is they are not deciding the case before them instead, engaging in flights of fancy that would involve further delay honestly all of us lawyers are also called officers of the court were trained to believe in the impartiality of the courts and especially the supreme court. but it's tough to do today. it doesn't look like they look like partisan hacks. i'm sorry and it's a great concern to me. a great concern to the president haitian of our democracy that we couldn't actually get a trial of someone who tried to overturn the

election before the next election is preposterous. >> so in defense of justice, amy coney barrett, i will say i mean, she did get trump's attorney to concede that several all of the accusations against trump in the special counsel's indictment did not constitute official conduct. and in fact, we're personal acts. does that not at least exempt amy coney barrett from your charge of partisan hackery well well, here's my hope. my hope is i'm wrong my hope is that they dismissed the stay that they decide the case before them, that overturning the constitution cannot be an official act. and let the trial to proceed. i would love to be wrong on this, but i'm i'm very concerned about what it looks like. they're going to do justice gorsuch said something along the lines of

that. >> he's less concerned with this case before them specifically as it pertains to trump in more concerned about how what they rule on presidential immunity will impact future practice hesitance you do not see his argument at all. i mean, this will be a precedent well, these guys think they're conservatives and what conservatives do is decide the case that is before them that's not what that justice seem to imply. >> they should decide the case. that is before them, not go off on tangents for potential cases that are not before them congresswoman zoloft grand democratic california. >> thank you so much. always good to see you. >> thank you. >> coming up, mark meadows and rudy giuliani are just two of the boldfaced names included in a brand new indictment in arizona about the alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election in that state, the arizona's secretary of state

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will go to trial for charges that he plotted to overturn the 2020 election. a grand jury in arizona just indicted several key trump allies, including rudy giuliani and mark meadows& boris epstein. and their efforts to overturn trump's 2020 election loss in that states. the indictment also includes charges against so-called fake electors in arizona, which reads, quote, in arizona and the united states, the people elected president biden as president on november 3, 2020 unwilling to accept this fact defendants and unindicted coconspirators schemed to prevent the lawful transfer of the presidency to keep unindicted coconspirator. a number one in office against the will of arizona's voters. the details in the indictment suggest trump is one of those unindicted coconspirators it sounds like he's coconspirator number one. here to explain the cases arizona secretary of state adrian fontes. first of all, let me just start with, why is arizona pursuing this

case and why so late? >> well first thanks for having me on jake and second the question of lateness really i don't think is that relevant to the attorney general's office was very thorough in its investigation. they followed the facts where the facts lead them attorney general kris mayes and her team have been working with the secretary of state's office and other agencies to make sure that they could cross all the t's and dot all of the i's and they found enough facts to take to a grand jury. the grand jury then figured there was probable cause to bring these charges and the granite jury decided to indict, and so we find ourselves here today with 11 accused quote, unquote fake electors, and several coconspirators who by the way, are all innocence until they are proven guilty in a court of law? >> why donald trump is obviously coconspirator, unindicted coconspirator number

one why not indict him? it's certainly wouldn't be the first time well, having been a prosecutor in the past, i can tell you there's gotta be some good reason. you'd have to ask the attorney general however, i'm the secretary of state, and as the chief election officer my job is to make sure that we ensure the integrity of the elections which we have done for quite some time and we will continue to do this is a criminal matter. it belongs to the criminal courts and the criminal prosecutors. they've made their determinations, but really both of those things, our election systems in our criminal justice systems are pillars of our democracy operating under this general concept of the rule of law. and where the law is broken. very glad to have this guarantee that the accused can face their accusers. they can have the guarantees of counsel and et and that's the important thing here. >> the rule of law will prevail and hopefully justice will be done at the end regardless of what the outcome is. while all

this was going on during, before and after the 2020 election you were the recorder for america county, the most populous county in arizona. what did you witness? and do you think you'll be called to testify? >> well, as the maricopa county recorder at the time of the 2020 election, i was actually on the ballot as well, and my race didn't turn out the way i wanted it to and as all good americans and good american spirit, i conceded my race, my own defeat to my successor recorder stephen richer and we moved along. that's what we're supposed to do in the united states of america, the peaceful transfer of power is one of the pillars under the rule of law that keeps us in the four of human development in the world. now, i saw a lot. i saw a lot of great people doing a lot of great work and then as time moved forward, i saw a lot of them fall under false accusations, conspiracy

theories, and lies. and that is why we are where we are today, not because there was anything wrong with the elections that we ran. not because anybody did anything wrong, but because there were certain individuals who just didn't like the outcome and now they're moving to destroy our democracy simply because of that, that is untenable. >> this criminal prosecution is only one facet of the fight that we have against those who advance against our democracy. >> and we've got to be vigilant to protect every institution, the free press or courts or judiciary, and et cetera. this is part of what makes us who we are as americans. we need to preserve, protect that democracy through the rule of law. and these important processes talk if you would, about the individuals who were indicted, who were part of this fake electors scheme. one of the defenses you hear from trump's attorneys is this was just an alternate slate of electors in case it went to congress, it wasn't

meant to be pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. tell us what you saw when it came to the fake electors well, what i saw were signed documents making specific claims, but let's be honest here, it isn't my opinion that matters. it's the opinion of the grand jury, those citizens who were empaneled to enforce the law and to bring an indictment if there was sufficient evidence to make these charges, i believe those citizens who operated under oath did their job. i believe these indictments at this time, we'll give the criminal defendants their opportunity to tell their side of the story in a court of law, if they so choose, they might end with a plea agreement. but this is just the beginning. as this story unfolds. now it's not as we know, dissimilar to the story sorry, we saw across the united states of america, i can imagine as a former prosecutor that the attorney general will try to bring a lot of that other evidence to show a pattern and practice or the pattern of behavior from that period of time but again our

job right now is to preserve the rule of law to make sure that we don't lose these institutions to rumors and innuendos and guesses, which is what has been eroding our faith and other are as americans. and so there's a lot of speculation that i won't be engaged in, but i do appreciate the opportunity to talk about the great work that election workers have done and continue to do across the united states of america, arizona secretary of state adrian fontes yes. thank you so much for your time. let's bring in recast and he's a professor at ucla law school. he's also the author of the book are real right to vote, how a constitutional amendment can safeguard american democracy. rick, why do you think trump is an unindicted coconspirator number one, not indicted and what do you think of the fact that it almost took four years to get this indictment going thanks for having me. >> the first thing i'd say is that our justice system tends to move slowly and deliberately, which generally is pretty good thing in terms

of protecting criminal defendants rights. it's just not well equipped to deal with attempts to subvert the outcome of a presidential election. we don't have a lot of experience with this. it chuck merrick garland a long time to bring a special prosecutor on for the federal case. the state cases proceeded state-by-state. i think some of the evidence that came out from kenneth chesebro in wisconsin ended up providing more information that led to yesterday's indictments in arizona so if for trump, he may be able to run out the clock but for these other defendants, i think these things are gonna go on for the next few years and they might actually see some trials and some criminal convictions prosecutors in michigan, georgia, and nevada have also brought criminal charges against some of the people who signed on as fake electors in those states. >> explain why these state cases might be more successful than the federal case. ultimately well the federal

case against trump for election interference, that's the one that's on hold. >> as this immunity issue is being put out. that's only against trump trump is one of many in georgia, and trump's, as you mentioned, is not part of this in arizona? there are different state laws that apply. so in arizona and in some other states, their stake fraud laws that apply here you're signing fraudulent documents saying this is an official document that is providing who the state's slate of electors is. that might be easier to prove than some of the claims that would become on the federal level. i think think probably different calculations are being made on the federal level. just go after trump and try and be laser-focused on that. whereas on the state level, if you go after trump, then you face potential immunity arguments there and you make the case more complicated. so i have prosecutors have discretion, but they also have to be realistic about getting these cases he says to trial and actually getting some jury to make a determination about

them. >> let's start into the major arguments in the us supreme court today. how likely do you think it is that the supreme court will end up delaying this trial beyond the november election based on what you heard today from the justices well, the already delayed it a lot. i don't know if you remember, but jack smith, the special counsel, tried to get the court to intervene before the dc circuit back in december. the court said no. then when the court set this for argument that gave it two month window for it, now would probably wait another two months for a decision. the justices seemed somewhat divided today. i think it's really unlikely we would see a decision before the end of june, beginning of july, and that decision is likely going to split the baby it's going to result in a remand where there's going to be more work for the lower courts to do. i would be very surprised let' see donald trump go to trial before the november election at this point all right. >> ucla law professor rick hansen. thank you so much. good to see you. we'll be right back

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blitzer. >> next one, cnn the hush money cover up, trial picks up again first thing tomorrow morning, cnn, will of course, have special coverage. former tabloid magnate david pecker is expected to be back on the stand. trump's defense team will continue their cross-examination. we're also still waiting on the judge's decision for a potential punishment for trump for allegedly violating the gag order that has been issued, telling him to not bad mouth or even discuss jurors, witnesses, and others tune in tonight to get up to speed on what played out in the case today, it's a special ac30 60 in which aac anderson cooper will go through the major moments in the hush money cover-up. the trial. that's tonight at eight only here on cnn until tomorrow, you can follow me on facebook, instagram, threads x, formerly known as twitter, on the tiktok, i take tapper you can follow the show on twitter at the leads semen. if you ever miss an episode of lead, you

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