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preferred better science, better results. i'm jeremy diamond in tel aviv, and this is cnn our special primetime coverage at the trump hush money trial continues 9:00 p.m. here in new york, de six now in the books de that gan minus the jury with a hearing on whether the former presidents should be held in contempt for violating his gag order. no decision on that then more testimony from david pecker, the former tabloid publisher on his role as eyes and ears and protector to candidate trump from potentially embarrassing stories which he would catch and kill and just a short time ago, we've got some video from cnn affiliate wpvi of the former president. this morning just before the gag order

hearing appearing to violate that gag order by talking about prosecution witness michael cohen. >> michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. he was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers back now with the panel including cnn's john berman has been going through the trial transcript, which just came out and as glean more details from it. so john, what stands out again, this is the transcript, so there's a lot to go through here, but but it does provide more details even some of the word choice that both the prosecutors and david pecker uses. this is where they talk about the august 2015 meeting between donald trump, michael cohen, hope hicks is in there for a period of time, and david pecker, the prosecutor, josh steinglass, asked, well, can you describe for the jury what happened to that meeting? please? pecker responds at that meeting, donald trump and michael, they asked me what i can do and what my magazines could do to help the campaign. so thinking about it as i previously, i said what i would do is that was run or publish

positive stories about mr. trump, and i would publish negative stories about his opponents i said i would be your eyes and ears because i know that the trump organization had a very small staff and then he wanted to say, i said that anything that i hear in the marketplace, if i hear anything negative about yourself or if i hear anything about women selling stories, i would notify michael cohen over i did over the last several years, i would notify michael cohen and then he would be able to have them killed hill in another magazine or have them not published, or somebody would have to purchase them. steinglass asked purchased the negative stories about mr. trump, so they would not get published me. you mean pecker responds that they would not get published? >> yes. >> i'm jeff what's the significance of that i don't know. >> i'm sorry. i know i'm not jeff, but like what's the okay. what's the crime? okay. >> so fine there they work hand-in-hand to have some influence on an election. >> here's, we've been here for an hour, right? here's what i would like to know. i still don't exactly know what the

second can dairy crime is. we heard that there's this misdemeanor that only lives because the statute of past only lives if there's a felony. my friends says that it's state election law. the professor says it's tax law. many other people say it's federal election law. it is. and that's why this case has to be very upset. and if it was barack obama sitting there, with the same charges, the same facts that be saying the same exact thing for me. this is not about donald trump. it's about a united states citizen. >> you think it's a weak case. >> it's the case is the facts of the case. the fact that learned counsel don't know exactly what the other charge is is insanely agree that when that i didn't i it came out. i think i was sitting right here. i said, okay, the other crime they have to prove falsifying business records to commit and other crime is unclear and a mess and it remains that way until now because even now, the prosecutor said while there was federal election crimes, it was state electric episodes, tax crimes. i don't know where they're getting that from. they overpaid michael cohen so he

could pay his taxes. but i think the primary theory here is that the other crime is a federal campaign finance violations and the theory is they falsified these records. it was a $130,000 payment. it campaign donation it campaign expenditure way over the limits. they falsified the records rather than calling them pay hush money payments, whatever white be an accurate accounting of it. >> they called it attorney fees, retainer, and so there's the falsification and then by falsifying those records and enabled them to essentially violate federal campaign finance laws. >> there's a lot of gray area. i agree that but try the case where there was any gray area in your whole career, you never tried to case when you will prosecuting another human being, where it was up in the air or it wasn't in the indictment, what exactly you are charging them with evidence every every case i tried had gray are the other ones pled out i mean, that's why you have a trial. no, no, no, no. but the charge number, the elements of the crime or when the judge at the end of the shroud reads the jurors, here are the

elements of the crime you and i don't know what he's going to say. these felony that that was committed. i know. i don't know. i think that's right. i think no. >> i mean, i think ellie gave a very coherent and aptt summary of the case, which is not all that ability though jeff, that comes down to the indictment is it is complicated. it is he said he said here when the indictment came out, he's the senior legal guy at cnn and he's got to look at an he's not 100% sure of what exactly the felony is that the president of the united states is charged with. that is not america. that's not the way we're supposed to be doing things here. if you told me he took a bag of cash, he took a bribe, he extorted people that's different here. we are still figuring out on the second day of testimony after opening arguments what is this what is the felony? is it federal election law? is it state election law is your tax we don't know. that's not the way the system works. you know that he knows that the us trial guys to have a response. i think this the crime is the

underlying crime is paying 150, $50,000 to eight to witness 130, and then $150,000 way more than you're allowed to under either state or federal campaign law. >> and then lying to cover and why is that? so which one is state of federal? you just say no? but that's not our system work okay. you're committing a burglary. if you're committing a burglary to commit a crime therein, you have to tell the jury what is the crime let's look into how to commit is if it said on the line item, hush money would that have been okay. with that have negating the amounts to much because the amounts excessive. >> and maybe i can boil this down. i think because i want to hear more from berman from the trial i think it's it's quite clear already and it will be quite clear that one of the substantial motivations behind all of this was to try to impact the election. i don't have much rational question about that. we'll say it just to be clear it may be that the

prosecution does make clear in the coming days what crime they say they are highlighting here, what they seem to be doing is laying the groundwork here to say this was a campaign meeting, they asked me what i can do and what my magazine can do to help the campaign. and the other thing that they establish in this testimony was that it was michael cohen who called for this mean, let me just read this part. we don't have a graphic then i'll get to a part with the graphic. how did this meeting come about? how did you know to go? he says pecker says, i received a call from michael cohen telling me the boss wanted to see me and that's how when i spoke to michael cohen, that's how we for fertile donald trump as the boss. >> this is important about this being a campaign meeting. this is being about the campaign and protecting campaign because that is the argument we have heard from a lot of the former president's supporters who say, look, he was concerned about his wife finding out the embarrassment of that i don't want to upset her this was not

there was no mention of that in this meeting was all about the catalysts and pecker. and just once that pecker talks about that, pecker talks about for a campaign, why this issue of women could be important. steinglass asked, can you explain to the jury how the topic of women in particular came up pecker says well, in a presidential campaign, i was the person that thought there would be a number, a lot of women come out to try to sell their stories because mr. trump was well-known and the most eligible bachelor and date of the most beautiful women. and it was clear based on my past experience that when someone is running for public office like this, it is very common for these women to call up a magazine like the national enquirer and try to tell their stories and this was before this was before the access hollywood tape. >> so the actual, the importance of the access hollywood tape in this is that it sort of the the drumbeat got much louder about indiscretions, changed everything. because remember stormy daniels was shopping around her story and was

essentially offering to sell it. >> and they argued that the price was too high and said no, that they weren't interested after the access hollywood tape came out that changed everything. karen mcdougal had a similar experience where initially when you look at the reporting, the offer was quite low for her story, it was someone who had said just said, hey, you should tell your story. that guy is running for president. you want to be the one to tell your story. and then she came out with that also to speak to what this is all going to what these people at least believed it was about david pecker researched whether or not he was violating campaign finance laws when they were making the payment to karen mcdougal because obviously incorporation chun's also cannot donate that much money to a political candidate. so he even thought that this was on the brink of violating the law. >> and again, like look, i think i can't speak to the legalities of whether it's state or federal. but the way that the system also works in this country is that you can't just have people handing $130,000 to a candidate today. it or a corporation having

$130,000 to a candidate. that's not how the system works to in order to protect the voter. i mean, there is an interest here in the voter and if we don't, we call this hush money that's what makes it sound. >> it's a confidentiality agreement. they're happening all the time. they're happening right now all over the place confidentiality agreement then it needs to be disclosed. >> if it's done for a campaign like that. i think that's the that's the idea here. it's what call it whatever you want, hush money confidentiality, but it's for a campaign and there are rules around that. and clearly, david pecker didn't really think that these corners of the eye here is to emphasize what would abbe saying. >> it's not, it's it's it was not a legal fee, which is exactly what was on the records that we was get one more thing transcript and john, because this is about not putting stuff well, it wasn't in writing. >> it was an agreement whatever it was, it was an agreement initially. and not in writing. here's a question from josh steinglass, the prosecutor, were any of the agreements the

agreement to print the negative stories about the opponents, positive stories from trump or the agreement to notify michael cohen about potentially negative stories about donald trump or any of those agreements put into writing pecker says, no they weren't put into writing. it was just an agreement among friends. >> well, here's why that's significant. i mean, obviously they didn't start using reducing things to writing until money got involved. >> but to abby's point, i think people maybe wondering why is the stormy daniels payment charges a crime a state crime here, but not the karen mcdougal what payment the evidence of karen mcdougal will come into this case because it's relevant as background, but it's not charged as a crime. >> and the reason is the state crime here is falsification of business records. the allegation, as i said before, is that they did that with stormy daniels because it was really a hush payment, but they called it attorney's fees, but they did not do that with karen mcdougal. it was structured separately. it was structured essentially as a catch and kill that was no falsification. they paid her for the story and then they killed it. so the state law doesn't quite apply here

on top, which is the point you were making before. yeah, but that with karen mcdougal, there was discussion of the trump trump world giving ami basically back that money. am i didn't do that and that's the next step that did not happen in that case. it makes it different from what and rudy giuliani is on television in 2018 saying that michael cohen wasn't doing legal work for donald trump when he was paid that amount of money. it's higher than the $130,000. it's closer to $340,000. so he didn't have to take attacks. it and that is what my michael cohen has been $60,000 for his legal work for his troubles because he drew down a home equity line to do this. but rudy giuliani, who was still representing trump at the time, is on tv saying michael cohen wasn't doing any legal work for trump when he got this payment. this is what they marked it as. you have a pecker says just the opposite today, he says he's getting all the phone calls from cohen and it was a different time, but that was does that was during the campaign and he's saying that when michael kuilan has paid, which is when trump was in the white house and when they put that in the ledger, that he wasn't actually doing any

legal services for trump. he was doing this much more head including more breaking news. the judge just handed the defense another setback that plus devlin barrett from the washington post, who was in court today. we'll be right back. >> zyrtec allergy relief works fast and last a full 24 hours, so they can be to litter dance okay. >> dave let's be more than our allergies seize the de with zyrtec. >> no application fee. >> if you apply by may 31st at university of maryland global campus and accredited university city, that's transformed adult lives for 75 years. you're not waiting to when you're ready to succeed again at umbc dot edu if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease, put it in check with rent folk a once-daily pill when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief and reduced fatigue with brin voc check when flares kept trying to slow me down, i got lasting

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correspondents dinner lives saturday at seven eastern khan, cnn actor continued coverage and the trough trump hush money trial i interviewed stormy daniels for 60 minutes. >> i want to show you some of that interview was it hush money to stay silent? >> yes the story was coming out again. >> i was concerned for my family and their safety i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you feared for your safety. >> they're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i didn't even negotiate, i just quickly said yes to this very strict contract and what most people will agree with me, extremely low number is all the proof i need you feel like if you had wanted to go public, you could've gotten paid a lot of money to go public and it out it out. >> i know for a fact, i believe without a shadow of a doubt in

my heart. and some people argue that i don't have one of those, but whatever that i was doing the right thing. i turned down a large payday multiple times times because one, i didn't want to kiss and tell and be labeled all the things that i'm being labeled now let's stormy daniels and 2018, and we're breaking news and i just in judge juan merchan tonight denying the former president's effort to subpoena information from stormy daniels, including her communications with other potential witnesses in the case gaze back now with the panel also joining us is the washington post devlin barrett, who was in the court today what's out to you from what you saw today in court? so a lot of what david pecker is talking about so far aren't really crimes, but there's sort of setting a setting a stage in setting a scene for this, he's kind of a tour guide to this case so far. but the other thing that really stood out to me was while none of this may be crimes the person he describing donald trump behaves like a jerk. and i think that

can be really, really painful for pad for a jury that came out through pecker's testimony today, right? >> i mean, you're describing a guy who's who knows he has apparently when he's running for president, like one of his first like meetings, he's got have are an important meeting. he's got to have it's like, okay, how do we keep women quiet about telling stories about me that's not great. jurors, i think are especially attuned to who's likable in the room and the stories david pecker were telling. we're not stories about a likable person. >> how does david pecker come off on the stand to the jury? do you think i mean, what does he drink? >> usually cheerful and chipper through this process, like he laughs sometimes very loudly, which good for him? like he's not the one on trial. >> but it is his longtime friend. >> they've been friends for decades. >> he concedes very cheerfully, again, that trump was very good for his business. he committed i needed trump to sell magazines. and that's part of why he made this deal with

trump during the 2016 campaign. >> i keep obsessing of what must be going through donald trump's mind sitting there behind this defense desk watching his former friend, who is a keeper of probably a lot more secrets about him, then he has lead on what must be going through donald trump's mind. i mean, nothing is when donald trump became president. >> i mean, this was someone who had a lot of dirt on donald trump and knew a lot about him and had a lot of leverage on him. and obviously, david pecker loved donald trump. we talked about trump's style and what he was publishing. he was someone who when trump first one, the white house for all of this became a thing before ami sign this non-prosecution agreement, which is probably why he's in such a good mood sitting on the stand. >> david pecker came to the white house. he was in the oval office. he got a tour of the links in the trump tower when he came down the escalator, which i had not realized that he was michael cohen said it's very important for you to be here. >> you've been such a good friend. let's be on it at this point, trump is pretty used to people who worked for him, who

were friends with him. turning on him and saying that he's a bad person. i mean, this is actually happening more often than not these days for donald trump. so this is just one in a series of things that donald trump is being confronted by people who were once very close to him who kept a lot of his secrets who knew him, who may be idolized him at a certain point. now, telling the world, not just the stuff that about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, but just a mode of operating that suggests that trump is kind of a shady character and he should get used to that because it's going to get worse as this trial goes, as certainly when michael cohen takes the stand, when hope hicks if she takes the stand, if kellyanne conway takes us and i'm not so sure that's going to happen, but these are going to be people who are really close to them and problem for donald trump here is, this is a structured environment. this is not the bare knuckle political environment. there. he can't jump up and say things to this person's i mean, there's a gag order in place that he's violating. the other thing that struck me today is isn't it? jarring to be reminded of what michael cohen was before he

flipped? i mean, he flipped six years ago. it seems like not that long, but 2018 and we're being reminded that michael cohen was a no holds barred unapologetic. we hear this phrase fixer. i mean, that's an understatement to be revived those all right. you guys um yeah, my family is still talks about being in a car when michael cohen called me on the phone and he was screaming at me so loud that they could here in the front seat, even though it was it was the phone was held to my ear. >> i mean, he was the he was the ultimate loyalist, but devin, i thought what your point about? he doesn't seem like a nice person. it's worth remembering remembering a donald trump that a month before he was elected president of the united states, the access hollywood tape came out, not a nice person, not a nice, and he's still one so all of this stuff about extra-marital affairs and he could still win this, notwithstanding be not a nice person when a lot of the

jurors walked in the room, their immediate reaction is a physical reaction to a celebrity that is the first physical reaction. but i i do think juries, juries always you seemed to really key in on who's a good person who's a bad person and watching trump go through the e, jean carroll trial, you could see a physical physical palpable dislike between that jury in him as that trial went on. and watching it today, i thought this could be the start of that process, repeating it, have you noticed any reactions by, without without giving any specifics about the jurors, you notice that any dynamic happening within the jury box, i haven't except for this they are some of the kgos folks. >> i have seen on a jury panel and long time when they were asking questions, apologies. when the lawyers were asking questions of the panelists, i have never seen jurors giving more practiced and careful and cautious answers. some of the trump lawyer questions they just wouldn't answer. they literally would not answer them because they felt like they

clearly felt like it was a trap and i think the jurors are you know, there's a lot of professionals in that panel. i think the jurors are fairly savvy about how oh questions about bias, questions about what you think of this guy. i think the jury is very savvy about that, and i think they're being very guarded as they start this process. >> jailyn's point about him being in a jovial mood. i mean, as my son well, let's see how he isn't cross-examination i would stuff that right up their nose in my summation, you see how happy is yeah. because he's the architect really, not really the architect, but he's the execution of this conspiracy. he's the one he does it all. he decides what goes on the cover of the magazine, what doesn't go on the cover of magazines, they could have easily charged him with a conspiracy in this case. and not only don't think make them take them cooperate ration agreement, they give them full-blown immunity. so she of course, he's skipping on. >> let me ask off. i mean, all the time? i mean, that that

between twwhen they have thug, the deal, when they have a ak case, when they have a weak case, when they need the cooperator. but if they have the documentation, when they have although witnesses who aren't culpable? no, no, they don't to arthur's point though, just on that agree with me, it's time to learn all i'm gonna do is just raise the possibility ok.'ll take what ian get luck. >> david pecker in a lot of ese examples, heas the one who said, you need to buy this story. you need to do this. you should get this off the market if i were trump's defense attorneys, i would be ke, well, trump was shed into this. he didn't really want to do it.e wanted david pecker to help him by writi nice stories about him and bad stories about his opponents. but pecker was the one who it seemed in some of these cases, who was pushing the idea of ying money for the stories so that trump could get it on isn't that his expertise, room, which is what trump asked

him to be in t room in the first place to have this meeting. that what can you do? i mean, what pecker is saying on the stand today was what you pointed out earlier, which is what can you do for our campaign? what can you do for our campaign? >> but to take us back to that time. and what was happening in effect, it had on the 2016 campaign and look at what that looks like. i keep going back to the senator ted cruz stories and where there were stories out. marco rubio and ben carson. but the ted cruz ones were especially agree, just tore he felt the need to come out and respond to them. trump was commenting publicly about it, and foxx interviews, i think we have this moment where ted cruz had to come out on the campaign trail and say that this is story that was published in the national enquirer, wasn't true. and he got that closer than a new and did until the wall street journal, i've been started reporting on this that it was david pecker and donald trump coordinating we don't have the moment, but he came out. he said that is tomorrow.

>> but i i think i think that there's a distinction between coordinating with david pecker over positive or negative stories and the decision to pay to take stories out of the marketplace. i think it is the payment here that is the most important part of the decision to immunize. david pecker is going to be a difficult one for the reasons that arthur pointed out, because that was a decision decision made by the fed's, by the southern district of new york a few years ago when you're making that decision, you have to do a calculus. there's no science to it. >> you say, well, do we need this person's testimony? >> and is it worth giving a free pass of what are we going to get out of it? the decision was clearly made were more interested in building a case against higher-ups, but there's some jury appeal to the argument that arthur is articulating right now now, which is folks, how is this fair the guy who was running this david pecker as you're describing it. the guy who was running this gets a free pass. he walt scenario testified he waltz on out and they're trying to hang a felony conviction and lock up donald trump. how is

that fair? house that equity either one of you how hard is it to get full-blown immunity from the fed's? >> they don't knew that my knees, but in an easy but i think elie was raising exactly what the defense will argue. >> i think there's a response to that, which is who benefited from this conspiracy? krissy who got elected president in the united states, but both of them david pecker was president and the united states when he shows me, he testified he sold a lot of magazine that i made a lot of money. i needed him, but his testimony he didn't violate campaign finance laws you don't know if trump did either? >> well, he also said that there was no financial benefit the fit for killing, right for the national enquirer, it was it was better for them to take bad stories about trump off the market, maybe with the exception of the alleged loved child story that turned out to be false, i think pecker was actually intrigued by the potential, if that were true, to run it, maybe after the election. but generally speaking he king, they didn't

want to run negative stories about trump, but they didn't want to run it, not because it wouldn't have been profitable, because trump's story is they didn't want to run it because david pecker didn't want them and because positive it seems that the national enquirer audience was positively inclined toward trump so there is a kind of, it's not just any it was not as any trump's story, but stories a grand dyes to trump worked well for their audience. is that what you found when absolutely. >> i mean, it was i mean, i saw the graphs that trump and this was surprised to pecker when i was talking to him in 2017, he said, well, you know, i wanted to help my friend, so we started all right. >> we ran stories, but then we saw that they work. >> so get a benefit you just do you sell my dear friend, he said he didn't get to be did get a better and better thank you very much for joining us. >> we've got to take a quick break coming up next to the former president is still venting about the trial, taking him off the campaign trail. the question is, is this all helping or hurting his candidacy answers on that xhr

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his way out and keep it real doug, hi, is joining us republican strategies. what are you hearing from people in republican circles mean? you hear, trump's allies arguing. he just wanted to make this story go away to protect his family. >> well to protect his family, but also to protect his political campaign. and what i hear often is it really depends on who you talk to, but of the trump core base, none of this matters. it's all baked in for donald trump and whatever happens is we've learned is great and glorious for donald trump. not exactly true. the other thing i'm hearing is a lot of concern that if he is convicted on this, regardless of the fact that most republicans feel that this is the most political of the cases against donald trump, that a convicted donald trump will struggle to some extent, whether that's 1% or 4% with voters in pennsylvania and arizona in north carolina. and so forth. if he's convicted, it's a very the real problem for them. and then there's the operational part. donald trump is, right. he can't go to all those states that he needs to because he's going to be in a courtroom during the week. so it'll be a weekend warrior going to campaign rallies, but he can't do what joe biden's

doing during the weekdays how much even at the height of a campaigner at this stage of campaign would he normally have been out doing rallies? >> various places? he hasn't been out a ton since super tuesday, so he's doing like one or two a week at most. >> and so his complaint that this is denying him an ability to be out there. it's constraining him. he can't physically plan a rally. he does have to actually be in the courtroom four days a week, but they didn't have a ton plant. he did have a rally scheduled and saturday in north carolina it was canceled because of the weather, but i think they're looking ahead to what this is going to look like as he wants to fund raisers, he needs to be raising money to compete with what the biden and the democrats have race that has really been their sore point on this logically though, you, when i sit, next to a defendant. >> yeah. i'm working and i'm stressing out, but it's still life. like i know going out that door no matter what happens, they may be going up the the side door and it's it's all encompassing. i don't care how this is an e felony is the lowest nobody thinks, judge, merchan is putting him in jail, but he's definitely not sitting there

thinking about strategy, thinking about fundraises. i mean, maybe he drifts off every once in awhile, but he's looking at this guy, david pecker pecker, right now, who knows and god knows, you asked earlier, like what's running through his mind and it's going to take up four weeks of his life it could be occupied running for president. >> can i ask you how much do you think republicans liked the idea of how much emphasis trump is putting on his martyrdom. it's like thereafter me it seems like every every time you see trump publicly, he's complaining about the cases against him. >> is that is that something that's motivating beyond his base? is that's effective for the base. it is rallying cry number one, beyond that, as you start to get to voters who are more concerned about, think of the top ten issues that we could talk about this sort of distracts from that and they don't like that. and to caitlin point, big big term in political campaigns, donor maintenance, donald trump is not able to do that now, whether it's at a lunch here in new york or somewhere at mar-a-lago during the week because he's in a courtroom that's very important. he's

he's not going to do a ton of rallies at this point, but he should be doing more donor maintenance than he's able to. it's one of the reasons and you're starting to hear people say perhaps they may announce a vice presidential nominee early so that that person can do some of that. >> the other part of this 2015, 2016 in the minds of most american voters was eons ago it was so long ago, most people don't care to remember any of this stuff. and this trial date by day is unearthing all of these stories. we were just talking about whether trump sounds like a good person or bad person while it's reminding people that he had all these accusations against him of infidelity and affairs that he used tabloids to smear his political opponents when he knew those stories were false. all kinds of things are going to come up in this trial. whether he is convicted or not, politically, that is a disaster for donald trump because he wants to run just on maybe the first two years of his presidency he's not gonna be able to do that anymore because from now until november, it's

gonna be a constant drumbeat of this case, of the other federal cases that's going to be making democrats case against donald trump, that he is just a mess. he's a, he's a bag of controversy rolled up into a former president in my role as an amateur political funded, i've tried to ask the question who is this going to sway? who's the outcome of this trial going just white. there's actually pulling on this by political that showed that 36% of independent set a conviction would make them less likely to vote for donald trump. 9% said it would make them more likely. not sure how that works but even if you net that out, that's a lot of independence has to be, i mean, i think everyone is familiar with the story interested what you think dug it has to be people who just say look, even if i might be inclined towards donald trump being a convicted felon is too much baggage to put someone in the white house. >> yeah, i remember the day after the access hollywood tape that morning i was at a political campaign event for richard burr in north carolina in raleigh. and that's the base who shows up at a political rally on a rainy saturday morning. they wanted

to make sure that burr was standing by trump, whether he approved of what donald trump had said or done. what have you. but that's the base. if you're one of those voters that doesn't like donald trump, end doesn't like joe biden. this does not help donald trump chaos is not good for donald trump. i mean, it's just not going into the 2020 election. one of the big things that voters really disliked about trump was just the fact that everything around him was always controversial. it was loud. he has political opponents, even in this republican hi mary, argued that he's not a good role model. i can't think of another case that more exemplifies this idea that trump as a person may not be the type of character that you want as president. that is just a narrative that is not positive for him, putting aside whether or not the jury comes back with a guilty verdict or caitlin mentioned this ted cruz today while ago, i don't remember that we didn't have, we do have it now, but i think it's worth trying because i hadn't actually seen it

before, but he is pointing out the relationship. this is when the national enquirer had put cruises father on the cover and story, there was completely made out which david pecker admitted on the state and today, here's ted cruz talking about the relationship between donald trump and david pecker the ceo of the national enquirer's, an individual named david pecker well, david, his good friends with donald trump. >> they have a friendship that goes back for many years. in fact, the national enquirer has endorsed donald trump, has said he must be president i had nothing to do with the national enquirer story. and frankly, i hope it's not true because it's pretty bad so ted cruz got one thing wrong in the extended version of those comments, which was he implied it was roger stone who is acting as the emissary with david pecker and donald trump, obviously as we now know, and we'll hear from him on the witness stand. >> it was my phil cohen who is doing all of this. >> but what ted cruz got closer to than really anyone did at

that time was that relationship between the two of them and it then it was not a known entity, a known quantity like it is now, like we saw the details coming out and you saw donald trump also doing other interviews about the claim that ted cruz is father was fault with lee harvey oswald trump would go on tv and say, well, the national enquirer has gotten other things, right? >> you know pointed john edwards and he'd say, well, they haven't denied it, you know, even though there were these strenuous denials from marco rubio and ted cruz. and it's just remarkable also given marco rubio tay was asked about this and kinda mocked the national enquirer even though he's someone who's on trump's vp shortlist right now. and you see the impact that david pecker saying, yeah, when marco rubio is surging in the polls, we were putting out negative stories about him. >> i was thinking about what what you said about the political poll and 9% of people say they'd be more likely to vote for trump if he got convicted. i'm trying to think. all right. what would that be? i think that would only be an i think the prosecutor said in the courtroom today about these

violations of the gag order. we're not asking for jail. we don't want gel and i think they said because that's what he wants. he wants us to put him in jail because i think i think people would say wait, even on an e felony and a violation of a gag order, you're putting him in jail. >> that's not got the many voters are calling it an e felony, but i take your point for being with us still ahead. today's gag order hearing did not go well for donald trump will talk to a retired judge who's judge juan merchan for more than a decade on how she expects him to zyrtec allergy relief works fast. it lasts a false 24 hours. so dave, can bva deliverer? >> dance? >> okay. days. >> let's be more than our allergies seize the de with zantac pain means pause on the things you'd love. but brene means go cool the pain with bio

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>> jack smith, have you ever heard of jack smith did the range when i call this judge is a lunatic and if you've ever watched him and the attorney general may be worse maybe worse. you have a watcher. i will get donald trump and the attorney general's a total of cheese, a corrupt person a terrible person. >> driving people out of three yard that letitia james, the corrupt attorney general of new york. >> you have a racist attorney general. >> i have a trump meeting, judge with the trump-hating wife and family. what else can you expect from a trump haiti, clinton appointed judge johnny says, judge kill, excuse me. judge. jill kohn visor and former new york state supreme court justice, who is known the judge overseeing this case, judge juan merchan for more than 15 years. >> judge. welcome. do you expect him do you think? to rule on the gag order soon? >> i think he probably will. i think it is typical of judge merchan to take his time and be thoughtful about the process

and that ties and that is across ties and get it right. i've said on this show before, i think that the gag order is a challenge for the judge because he does want to get through the process. and of course, finding donald trump a few thousand dollars doesn't mean that much jailing him. well, he could he has that is within his rights. do that for 30 days. the legislature hasn't given him a whole lot a whole lot of tools. but at the end of the de, it appears that donald trump is baiting this judge. and perhaps once that so that his his constituents will be appalled and up in arms and he loves that riotous communists you'd about the moment in court today, were the judge told todd blanche that he's losing credibility with the court i mean, you've been on the ventral long time. what how did you read that moment? >> that moment was i think judge merchan telling him your argument is just not making any sense, and i'm hearing you. i'm listening and give me a good argument, helped me

through this, but you're not doing that. you're losing credibility council. >> and it was remarkable because it was the prosecutors had gone through each of where they said these violations happen bend and essentially, we're saying this post this post, this comment, and the judge was asking todd blanche, will if you're saying that he's just defending himself, point to that moment. and i read that the transcript, todd blanche never points to a specific moment and that really is seemed or things kinda careened off the rails for todd blanche, there are hearings as a lawyer that go well, and there's hearings that are so sow and there's hearings that are bad. this was a debacle for todd blanche. i mean, it was embarrassing for him. and to hear the judge openly say you're costing yourself credibility when here's how bad it got. this is the quote that i remember at one point. so remember donald trump reposted this quote from a fox news personality but it turned out that donald trump had manipulated it. the judge asked todd blanche can toggle had to say this in court, quote, i wouldn't use the word manipulation, your honore but the rest of the quote was not part of the quote. that is the definition of manipulation. so

this was, let me just tell you one thing. todd blanche has gone through a little bit of cultural shock here because like me, he came up as a prosecutor, a federal prosecutor. you guys know, nobody is as cushioned as a federal prosecutor. and now he's got to deal with something you never had to deal with as a federal prosecutor, which is a client, and probably the world's most difficult client whispering in his ear and passing them notes the whole time. so it's a tough road, but he lost a lot today. >> but isn't the real message of merchan's upset today? it's really a trump, it's not your lawyer. i mean, it's the person who put the lawyer in this impossible position of defending the indefensible is the client not the war. and judge, i wanted to just ask it, what would you do? okay. you're the judge. what you've got someone a violating a gag order repeatedly what do you do this is a unique situation, right? >> so i have had to deal with gag orders. i've had had to deal with unruly lawyers and unruly clients of lawyers. this is unique to some extent, what would i do? i would not put

them in jail. i think that's what he's looking for at this point. at some point, maybe maybe you have to i don't think we're there yet. you'll find him. you let him know this cannot go on and if it does, there's going to be additional punishment again, back to the legislature where there's not a whole lot of rome. but yes, you'll find them. he complains about it and you move on. the point is, this judge has a responsibility to ensure the fairness of the preceding and that is why the gag order laws are in place, not necessarily to punish, but to maintain order. and that is what judge merchan has done with some grace in this case, in the face of an extremely difficult defendants, an attorney, it also seems clear he doesn't want this thing to go off the rails. he wants this to keep the trials begun. it's well into it. he wants it to keep moving forward. he doesn't want this to this kind of stuff. >> if i can just defend todd blanche i mean, any of us who try cases if you're in the heat

of the moment, this is one little piece of what happened today. you do the best you can under that pressure the whole world is watching this guy. and i think you're right. i don't he's not i'm not saying bad about them. he's not some veteran criminal defense attorney. he hasn't tried 30 criminal trials as a defense attorney. i don't know what he did in the prosecutor's office, but what you're saying about a judge in the southern district new york they're almost like having another prosecutor in the room and they take very good care of their prosecutors. and this is culture shock. it is culture shock. let me do as a defense attorney, if you have the client from hell, who is passing, you know, two things they know everything what do you how do you do that? how do you deal with that? >> well, there's some language that i can use because of the fcc rooms and things like that. and you just tell him, look, bro, this is your life on the line. i've been doing this for 32 years. you have been doing this for five minutes. so you're going to let me do my job and defend you or just get someone else because just chill

bro, you gotta just chill and let me do my thing. but dollars even if he was the president united have you said gets what else? that's what he would just do. donald trump number you can't get someone else right now the judge won't the judge won't can also see is the best attorney he thinks he is. you can also say, i've been doing this for seven years and he doesn't know. >> he doesn't know the rules. and i think you mentioned about having a sidebar there are times when you like and that's why the relationship between the defense and the judges so important. there are times when you have a sidebar, which means no one can hear that the media, no one, it's off the record and you like, judge, i'm in a tough situation here. and he has the keywords just let me make my record. and now backoff. >> just go on when or it reminded me and probably youtube abbe of the white house press secretary is always having to defend trump's tweets and suss them out. and here's what he meant and repost or retweets we're not endorsement. i mean, it was this cycle that every press secretary went through, sean spicer said they were official white house statements. but what's different? felt this

and what's different for this sure. >> maybe todd blanche does have experienced doing this. well, he's doing it now and he's representing the former president in the first criminal trial ever. and what we're seeing that's different about this as donald trump's words are being used against him. he's being held accountable for them in a way that he's never been before, although i do wonder what is timidly, the impact of trump violating this gag order on the actual case. this is what trump is calculating, is that he might be irritating the judge. he might be annoying his attorneys, but when it comes to the jury they're looking at the evidence and he gets to influence the public, but it doesn't really affect the case because the judge is not going to put him in prison. and until i mean, until that happens, nothing is going to happen want to thank everybody in the panel, the news continues right here on cnn skin craving, next level hydration, new neutrogena hydro boost, water cream of vital boost of nine times more hydration to boost your skin's

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