damning thing in here do you think? >> to me, the most damning thing is the volume. there are so many opportunities for the district attorney to prove this case and it is some of the acts are really headline grabbing. the donald trump ordering johnny to draft a memo to how to overturn the results of the election, that is remarkable. i don't think we've heard that before. >> johnny mcentee not indicted in. those >> notably not indicted. and then other there's 1 million phone calls and emails. >> if i were some of these people who were indicted, i want to find out who is not named and not indicted and figure out who was talking and what do they have on me? because she said people have until friday to come on in face of. well, i would want to know what

of my friends and colleagues who believed in the fake electors, fraudulently, were the ones talking to fani willis? >> i want to thank everyone for staying up late. i'm going to leave so laura coates can take my seat she's going to be anchoring with kaitlan collins, so i want to hand it over to her right now. >> our special breaking news coverage continues now, the grand jury indictment of donald trump and others in fulton county, georgia. i'm kaitlan collins, the indictment 98 pages. what it contains is stunning. 45th president of the united states indicted on state charges stemming from his and other efforts to overturn joe biden's election win in the state of georgia. prosecutors alleging tonight that trump and others joined in

a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the 2020 election. 18 other defendants are named in this indictment, including trump attorney rudy giuliani, mark meadows, john eastman, kenneth chesebro, jeffrey clark, and jenna ellis, just to name a few. all 19 are facing racketeering charges and prosecutors allege that they participated in a criminal enterprise with 30 unindicted coconspirators. let's begin tonight's coverage with paul reid, who's outside the courthouse there in atlanta. paula, read through these 98 pages but we just heard from the district attorney, fani willis, and she was saying that she is going to try all of these 19 defendants together, she says. >> yeah, that was really surprising that that is how she would want to proceed on this case. you can do it, but as one of our colleagues said earlier it is like trying an entire football team at one time. in the immediate future she has given all of those defendants until next friday at noon to

surrender and she would not commit to exactly when she wants to bring this case, but did it seem to suggest that she would request a date in the next six months. kaitlan, as we, know the calendar is getting quite crowded with all of the possible trials, both criminal and civil, that the former president is facing. now, looking at this indictment i was about 20 pages and she lays out her theory of the case and highlights the key areas that she then goes into really specific detail on, including the efforts to install fake electors, to put forth a fake slates of electors, to undermine the electoral college process, the harassment of election worker rudy freeman, and also alleged efforts to solicit the justice department. we know the former president was leaning on his own justice department tried to interfere here in georgia and she also pointed to the pressure campaign faced by former vice president mike pence. she also talks about breaching voting equipment and then filing false statements.

at a high-level, that's how she lays out her case. one thing that struck out to me is that she does not just include details from georgia, she also includes details from arizona, pennsylvania, and michigan. so this is a case that is being brought in georgia, but the conspiracy that if she is laying out, the story that she is telling stretches across the united states. >> and paula, another thing from that press conference, sara murray our colleague asked her about coordination with jack smith, the special counsel here. and he contact between the two of them. she did not to say no. >> i know, it was so weird because there wouldn't be anything improper, particularly just logistically talking to the special counsel. so it was surprising that she wouldn't answer. now, perhaps just trying not to defeat into political attacks from the former president and other people as suggesting that it is part of a larger politically biased conspiracy that could have been her motivation. but it was surprising that she

really dodged on that. in addition to the bigger question that she will -- the special counsel about which was the timing for this trial. and then kind of said as an aside they will be requesting something in the next six months. it was surprising since she had this press conference that she did not give more specificity on some of these key questions. >> we will see what else she has to say about, this and of course when the -- polar, eat outside the courthouse in atlanta, thank you. joining me here tonight at the table is cnn political commentator bakari sellers, our cnn political commentator scott jennings, legal analyst jennifer rodgers, and federal prosecutor -- williams, a senior investigative counsel for the january six committee. let me start with you, just reading through this indictment but seeing what the district attorney had to say there, it doesn't surprise me that she said that she wants to try all 19 of these codefendants together? >> i think it is quite surprising. in the private media as the federal prosecutor and the

logistics of that trial would be daunting, so i do think she may want to do that, but i think practically that may be some issues with that going forward. >> jennifer rodgers, what do you make not just of that, but saying that she has until august 25th at noon to come and surrender themselves two days after the primary debate? >> these are not career criminals, they're not folks that you think are gonna flee the country so there's not much concern about letting them come in their their own that's why they were public -- and not arrested through an arrest warrant. it's not surprising to me. >> what was your thought reading through this 97-page indictment? >> just the scope of it. we had heard it was going to be a sweeping scope, but the notion of all of these people, including new people that we hadn't been hearing about, like jen ellis for example, mark meadows who has been m.i.a. for so long in all these cases and everybody has been wondering if he has cooperated. apparently is not cooperating, at least not with fani willis because he's been indicted. so those are some of the surprises for me.

>> what about you? >> i think, i'm not quite as surprised. i mean from the perspective of the committee, gianna ellis was one character that we had been well aware of. she is really in the belly of the beast of this conspiracy. i am surprised that fani willis chose to charge so many people at the same time. compared to what jack smith did, when you have more defendants are going to have a diffused focus. more motions, it's going to be a bit more of a beast to handle. >> she went the other, way jack smith clearly went with just two trump, tried to get it done as soon as possible. she clearly, at some point along the way decided i'm not going to worry about the timing, i'm just going to put everything in and everybody in and let the restaurant shake out. >> what does the calculation in decision like that? it's not just trump and the 18 other codefendants here, there are 30 unindicted coconspirators that are listed in this indictment as well. >> i think what she is doing here is really telling a story. i think jack smith's story is about what if president trump

too, by himself, he is sitting there on the pedestal by himself. i think here we are talking about a massive conspiracy, a group of individuals coming together, and i think we go charges support that narrative. so what she wants us to take from this indictment is that all of these people coordinated, conspired, worked together to try to overturn this election. >> scott jennings, one of the things that we heard from trump, even before it was concerned that he was indeed indicted, which we expected, is that this was political interference in the election. she was asked about that and said that this is completely nonpartisan when it comes to the law. >> that is not how trump and his supporters are going to portray her. they are going to portray her as a partisan democrat who is doing this for political reasons in a county that overwhelmingly voted for joe biden and in a county where she is elected by those people. on the indictment, i have to say, whether you are pro trump or anti trump on, this it is a startling thing to read. that the president of the

united states was the head of a, quote, criminal organization. when you see that on printed paper it is pretty startling. we think about georgia for trump, all of the, i mean this is a waterloo place for him. he will lost in 2020, sailed to oust brian kemp the governor, is handpicked candidate for the senate lost, and now he's indicted in this sprawling indictment. so you think about the role that the state of georgia might play in his ultimate downfall, or resurgence if you somehow beats all this, and i will just once a final issue. this case, the january six case, the documents case, i don't to see how the american people can not know the outcomes of these things before they vote. i recognize you can't get all these things in before the primary, but if he's the nominee of the republican party how can the american people not see the results of this before they were to cast votes next november when they consider everything that's been alleged here? >> she wants them to know, she

wants this trial she is in a requested date for six months? >> i want to push back a little bit on the narrative about the number of defendants that she actually indicted in the biting of this big apple. when you look at what phony has done over her tenure there, whether or not it is why fm, why scl, two very large, well known rap groups in atlanta georgia. she has actually indicted young thug right now and our viewers are googling like crazy who is young fog. it is like the longest jury selection process going on right now in a rico conspiracy case and yes, it is taking more time than six months. i think she can handle this, i do think she can indict all of these individuals at one time, i think that fani's issue is going to be when you try to get this done in six months, to scott's point. but this was a very thorough process. many times when you see a civil rights case and you see something happen, let's not

forget that i believe this event occurred one day after she was elected. we want people to rush the judgment. she actually had a grand jury that was in place for months, although the grand jury did not have the power to indict. the grand jury was in place for months with the power to subpoena, the power to investigate. this is a very thorough investigation. that's why when you look through this and you read, it it's like it gets juicy around act 30 or 31. you could pick out one of these are your favorite character. i also think there's going to be a sympathetic figure throughout all of this. people are going to start to look we hear donald trump's name we hear fani willis's name she is a bad bad woman, i love her. i want to protector but rudy freeman, for example? these individuals are going to come to, play the victims of this are not just the voters of georgia, but the real people. when you start to look at it, it's not some abstract voter this or voter that but the persecution that ruby freeman

had to go through, the torture, the torment that she had to go through, i think that is going to do very well in front of a jury, regardless of whether or not they are democrats or republicans. >> one of the people that is indicted here is somebody who tried to intimidate rudy freeman personally and tried to coerce her into making false statements, which is a bizarre aspect of this, but also concerning. you are laughing and people are -- kanye west's former publicist, one of the 19 -- >> you've got to dig a little bit. you not only have that, but you have one of the coordinators for black voices for trump. this entire conspiracy just, let's back up. let's give you on a few trials where everything that you're going to be able to see live on tv. the judge has already said that cameras are going to be there, there are going to be mugshots and fingerprints. every hearing, every emotion is going to be live on tv. this is going to be a very different setting for donald trump. >> one thing that stands out to

me is that we look at all the tentacles that this has. giuliani is the second name of this list of the co-defendants here who have been indicted. the fact that he has been indicted on racketeering charges, what is now going to be known to everyone's rico charges, that is what he used to bring down members of organized crime, mafia, members upset how he made his name as a prosecutor in new york is using the same laws that are now being used against him. >> yeah, as the head of the office that i used to work for when i was a doj, it is a sad thing to see what rudy has fallen to from the crime buster, the mafia buster that he used to be. but i -- you read through all of the allegations here and they saw a lot of this evidence before it came out in the public eye before the january six committee hearings and elsewhere, and it is a compelling story of rudy giuliani knowingly blatantly lying. blatantly defrauding the state legislature in georgia. this is backed up by stuff and it's sad to see him fall thus

far, but he's done it to himself. >> i just want to comment really quickly and scott, please, chime in because you know this better than i. but even in georgia, he doesn't have any republicans rushing to his rescue. you have the legal downfalls and pitfalls but you also have the political. the governor of georgia is not going to come out with a statement and say oh my god this is an abuse of justice. lieutenant governor is a star witness. i mean -- >> he testified today. >> on top of that the governor of georgia i guess can't pardon him. the way it works in other states. >> i had to ask this question today of brian kemp's team, is it up to him? and they said no. >> so it does raise a lot of issues. part of his campaign on this federal charge that he is facing and these other cases, if this is going on or he gets convicted and wins, i guess he can get himself out of that. i don't know how you get out of this. how do you get yourself out of this? it is obviously a crazy

scenario to think about, but one that it is, non-zero at this point. >> that's why it's so striking, because it's the one where he does not have that insulation from being reelected. i wonder what you think reading through this, given the work of the january six committee and -- you're reading about ruby freeman and shaye moss and their names and how they're going to come and testify. it one of the most gripping testimony of the entire public january 6th congressional hearings. now to see them spy to specifically. >> well first of all, you are right. it was incredibly gripping testimony and i think what it showed was how the former president was willing to use his pulpit against individual citizens. people who he knew did nothing wrong, and he attacked them, he sent his dogs on, them and they suffered great harm because of that. and i think that moment in our hearings really showed the american people the damage that is done on a very individual basis when the president, the former president, attacks

specific people. i think, too, mayor giuliani point as well. he used a lot of racial language when you talked about these two women, suggesting that they were passing drugs between them or somehow calling them hustlers. i think that part of the tone here, when we are talking about georgia, we're talking about fulton county, i think it is a critical component as well. >> can i say one thing about these ladies? i've worked in elections for over 20 years all over the country. i have known volunteer election workers in just about every jurisdiction over the country. our elections are defused for a reason and they depend on people just like this and to watch them get dragged was sickening. i hope they get justice for what happened to them. criminally or civilly or whatever they have got coming, because what happened to them, we cannot and elections. when you take private citizens and have famous people drag them through the mud. we won't have election workers

if this is allowed to stand. i thought that was the one the most sickening things that happened at this election. i'm glad to see that something's going to be done about it. >> laura, of course, looking through this just reading the names in here. mark meadows, mike, roman harrison floyd, those are high ranking white house officials. campaign officials who have been indicted in the state charges in georgia. >> i mean look at this yearbook photograph here in this. think about it, when i look at this i think to myself that there are some who are very powerful, and maybe have the means, others who are not going to be, comparatively speaking, and how that might influence the level of cooperation knowing that there are mandatory minimums if convicted as well. thank you, i want to bring in right now david to show and who is the lead counsel for then president trump in his second impeachment trial. david, it's good to see you. on another, frankly, history continues and it continues to be in the making when it comes to donald trump. by my tabulation, and it is a rough one, it just after

midnight, we are talking nearly 100 different charges in total for this former president. here, alone 13 he has been accused of participating in a multi-state criminal enterprise. this is in addition to the other cases against him. how is he supposed to, or is he going to, defend himself? >> well, it certainly has to break down each case on its own merits. i have to say i know that you and kaitlan are stupidest leaf air at all times, so i was disappointed to not hear member of the panel talk about the presumption of innocence. we're talking about this indictment as i've everything is a fact in here, but beyond all that, let me raise a couple of other issues for you, if i may. i don't think that it's going to be possible to try them altogether. your panel accurately discussed the logistical problems, the young thug case is months and months of jury selection. we learned a lesson, organized crime cases in new jersey about the problem these mass indictments. but i also think, as a

practical matter, former president trump is going to move to remove this case to federal court. this case is much different from the new york case. i think this case clearly fits within the statute, 28 usc 14 42 a, as an act performed under color of office. the 11th circuit can use that pretty broadly, it does not require a causal connection there is a case on it, cover versus -- >> i want to just translate for a second for the audience. i don't want to cut you off, but i want to lean in the point that you're making. to remove it to federal court, essentially means that it would no longer be under the purview of fani willis, as the dea from fulton county, it would no longer be a state issue, it would go to a federal judge instead. and you are naming the criteria for how you get there. why do you think that this is right for that consideration? >> first of, all i do think that miss willis could carry on with the case, i do think that her staff could follow it to federal court and try the case

there. that is one. but i think the statute is pretty clear, it charges officers of the united states can remove a criminal case brought against them in the state court if this case is four or related to any act -- under color of their office. so the idea here would be that he was acting as a president, that is why he had to sway with the officials, it is why he took the actions that he did, whether he was successful or right or wrong or otherwise. it was under color of office and, as i say,, the 11th circuit among other circuits can spews it pretty broadly. congress amend the act to construe it a bit more broadly, although some circuits have not come along with that. and so the idea -- >> david only one person, there are some elected officials, but one of the main ones is don't trump. if that was the color of office there are more than a dozen people who are listed here who would not be able to rely on that same philosophy under the quote unquote color of office. i do want to focus on the color

of television for a second because, unlike some of the other trials that he will be facing, this, we have already seen today, we watched it be the actual indictment, we walked over to the judge, the clerk with and walked it out. we have a lens and a view inside of the courtroom. no more courtroom sketches here. i wonder what you make of that? does trump benefit from having the whole world to see it? it occurs to me that this might be a double edged sword. >> i think you're under percent right and back to your first point, i was really just speaking about president trump. on the removal issue, there may be other who come under it and the successful, your junta percent right, i was really just referring to him. i think you're also under percent right, as usual, that this is a double edged sword. he plays the publicity very well, he knows how to appeal to certain people and i think, quite frankly, in georgia where you are going to find many perspectives jurors who find it

hard to believe as detail the charges are that this effort by former president trump and others constitutes a criminal enterprise as a matter of common sense. not just of the legal definition. so i think all of the things play into, it but yes, i think the cameras may will be playing to him if he is actually tried in state court. >> you know, there is the camera and then there is the audio. it is almost that combination. we remember that call, i don't need to tell you or remind our audience of that. 11,007 and 80 votes, one more than biden had. we heard that tape, we heard the former president, then president speaking to brad raffensperger for example. you know all of these details quite well, of course, and having handled the impeachment trials. but i wonder, the fact that that is on tape, the fact that it is there and we can play it for a second to remind the audience what it sounded like. i want you to listen to it and try to tell me what you do with that because a defense council. listen to this. >> i just want to find 11,780

votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. >> now, of course, as you rightly pointed out and as fani willis pointed out, the brimson of innocence is certainly here. this is an indictment about probable cause. but, prospective jurors have likely heard this as well. you'd be hard to find jurors who are completely ostriches who have never heard any of this and have had their head in the stand, the ban went goals of the world. how do you defend against what is on tape? >> it's a great question. tapes are very powerful. i think in this case, though, the clear answer is especially playing to a juror who feels that this is piling on or politically motivated. if you play the rest of the tape, and the rest of the tape, this is the stamp that always played. but the rest of the tape reasonably can be construed by listener as saying he, president trump and others on the tape, there were lawyers on

the tape, to, believe that they were in several kinds of irregularities in the election. votes were stolen, whatever it is they believed or set on the tape. and they therefore, all we need to come up with are the difference of this amount of votes, even though we, on that tape, the folks on the tape, believes that there were many more votes that were stolen or lost or improperly cast, or whatever the theory is. so i think if you play the rest of the case and highlight those areas to put this in that context of your theory of defense. >> you know, i wonder. there are a number of lawyers that are mentioned in this indictment. rudy giuliani, sydney powell, jenna ellis, just to name a few. and there has been the perception, and there has been the thought that donald trump's legal counsel in the previous case, i believe mr. lauro talking about the advice of counsel. obviously an umbrella term to suggest that he was just following the advice of counsel here and that cannot be wrong, it can't be all that bad.

do you have some concerns? you've been his counsel to some degree on this notion. do you have concerns about what that is like when you are the defendant and you are either the council, obviously the attorneys, or you are donald trump or anyone else? there is going to be attention there because you are going to have to, on the one hand, decide if the attorney client privilege is going to stand. two, whether you are going to jump the ship so to speak and say i didn't tell you that. or, yes i did, and have that be perhaps an escape hatch for your co defendant in these matters. what do you make of the advice of counsel defense? especially in this case? >> again, as usual, you're asking the right questions. this case has a couple of twists on advice of counsel. one, as you pointed, out you see some of the lawyers on whose advice you rely, indicted. coconspirators in the case, and by the way, we have to point

out that it is very clear in the recall awe that they're going to improve more than a conspiracy. so you have part of the indictment, and i think you're going to see people flipping rife and right, probably in this case, over to the other side of the case because they don't want to be defendants in the case if that is possible. and there, for that as the other twist on it. that is going to affect what they say the advice was that they gave. remember, he is going to have little rely on the fact that several of these lawyers were on the call. people whose advice they got before the call and during the call were actually on the call. you can hear them interrupting, asking for their advice during the call, you can ask -- nicole, for example, speak up and say what it is that she had told him and so on. it is a fascinating dynamic that really highlights this issue. >> there's a lot of fascination here and this is certainly not going away, perhaps the speed that fani willis may in a six month trial. david schoen, nice speaking to. >> thank you very much.

>> kaitlan? >> someone who knows the trump legal team, well laura. 19 people have been indicted in this case, including the ones that you see here. donald trump, rudy giuliani, his former chief of staff at the white house, mark meadows, john eastman, kenneth chesebro, jeffrey clark, trump campaign attorney jen ellis, sydney powell. we have a lot more on the stakes that donald trump and those names mentioned there and the others who were indicted tonight in georgia. we're joined now by cnn contributor and a former nixon white house counsel, john dean. john, just on first thought, looking at this 98-page indictment, what went through your head? >> my first reaction was she didn't just charge him, she threw the book at him. it is a very, very impressive document. i have only made it through a little bit of it, scandal lot of it and the very problem that you are raising, kaitlan, is the people that you named are both --

and they're being charged in georgia as well. that is the sort of thing that, during watergate, that was worked out in advance. i think i understand why fani did not want to address whether she had talked to jack smith or not because i think they're in conversation right now, because they are stepping on each other's toes. >> what could that mean for this? there is a reason that sarah murray asked that question, because it has raised the prospect here of what these two simultaneous cases and trials could look like. we have seen how quickly jack smith is trying to move, there's a judge that moves quickly as, well and what you heard in the district attorney in georgia in fulton county saying that she wants to see a trial date, they're going to request one within six months. >> what it could mean, for example, is that mark meadows is not really named as an individual other than his chief of staff position in the federal indictment. it appears, in that indictment, that he's a cooperating witness. that he's going to assist. if he is being charged in

georgia, that might cause some reluctance or certainly tainted his testimony as to what he would be willing to testify doing in the federal case. that is the sort of thing that i think they have to work out. and i am surprised it did not get worked out. >> you heard david to show in, there he is somebody who represented trump at one of his impeachment trials, you know the trump legal world. he predicts that some of these 18 others that are listed underneath donald john trump are going to flip. is that something that you think the former president should be worried about tonight as well? >> i think he should be very worried about it and i suspect that a georgia judge will step in quickly and let them know that they are not going to tolerate it. i'm sure the prosecutors are very aware of trump's behavior, is effort to intimidate witnesses is well known now. so yes, it is very likely that someone will flip and they just want to see the indictment and they have seen it now and it's not pretty. >> you obviously where the

white house counsel during the nixon administration. the white house counsel office, as it stands now, is not far from the chief of staff's office. mark meadows, with the exception of the former president, is the highest ranking white house official to be charged here. listed in this indictment, the fifth or sixth person listed. what do you make of the fact that a former white house chief of staff has been indicted on state charges of racketeering in this enterprise, fani willis says, to overturn the election? >> well, he did not learn much from history because he is not the first chief of staff to be indicted, obviously. hr holdman, who is the model still today of how a chief of staff can effectively operate. but meadows, he was overwhelmed by his boss, the president. and it appears, i think he is cooperating. that is my read, and so i think you will probably find a solution to get out of the

georgia case, to. >> do you see echoes of watergate in this? or is it bigger than that? how do you see it? >> it is much bigger than watergate, kaitlan. it is of a whole different dimension. it goes to the very foundation of democracy, nixon abused some powers, he exceeded his authority when he shouldn't have, but he was not taking that on the basics of the country. where is trump wanted to stay in office, he wanted to use georgia and abuse georgia as part of that plan. so this is very different, much more serious and troubling. >> john dean, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you, caitlin. >> and we will be back with much more of our breaking news, breaking down this 98-page indictment. former president donald trump and 18 others have been indicted on what prosecutors allege was a wide ranging, multi state conspiracy. how far did it stretch?

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♪ i'm going to somewhere, anywhere. ♪ ♪ a beach house, a treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah. breaking news tonight, the former president of the united states and 18 others facing criminal charges and the fulton county georgia grand jury investigation of the trump 2020 election subversion case. here with me now to talk about this display your book photo is

evan perez, for the -- kia mitchell, jonah goldberg and ashley allison, and cnn legal analyst norm eisen. we've got the perfect panel talk about all of this because first of all we know we make history a lot in terms of indictments. we are now on number four. it was expected to come in, but i don't think people really thought it would be the exponential notion of everything. i want to start with you evan, because this started in georgia, of course, about what they are very precise that this enterprise, as they are calling it, happened in more than just georgia. it happened in places like arizona and michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and d.c.. the enterprise operating in all those places. we have a map actually, that shows people that where we are talking about, just to give you a sprite of where the alleged the enterprise to have operated. what is your take away? >> i think one of the things, that stuck out to me in reading

the document was that the scope of the acts that she uses in the prosecutors used to support the racketeering charge, it goes beyond things that happen in georgia. and i wonder why that was? she addressed at the press conference, but if you notice, actor seven, it involves a call to top officials in arizona. again, trying to address the election results there. act eight has to do with a meeting that had to do in gettysburg, pennsylvania, with the pennsylvania legislature is. act 50 involves a call to wisconsin's senior officials in wisconsin state. and then, of course, act number seven happened here in washington where they were pressuring top officials of the justice department to say that there is fraud and let us take care of it. and she said that, basically the reason why she was using all of these acts that did not happen in her jurisdiction, was

because they were all in the fervor instead of trying to overturn the georgia election results. so that explains it, and i think that it is a very interesting and certainly expansive way for her to approach this, because a lot of us, i think before we saw this document, we're anticipating that this was going to be a lot more limited. they were going to home in and drill down on what happened in georgia, including the fake electors and the effort to get into those election machines. so, the idea that she has gone a big and expensive on this is i think very interesting. >> it is also interesting, it has been a while since i read that jack smith indictment, because that was weeks ago. >> an eternity ago. >> so in dog years it was a long time ago, but my recollection of the smith indictments is that, temporally, in the timeline, it begins with january six. it is, with the election, i

should say. this act one is really interesting to me. it is about how, on october 31st, donald trump discussed a draft speech in which he is going to claim that the election was stolen because of voter fraud, which means it with the plan going into it all along. it is something that we have heard, steve bannon early was making those intimations, but this shows that this was not our reaction in realtime on election night, but it was a strategy because they knew they were going into it from the beginning likely lose. >> an important word that you used, a speech. this was not present in the jack smith indictment, the idea of speech and opening himself up to the first amendment issues and beyond. they have tweets in here. >> but she is very careful, the evans point, it is a nationwide sweep. it is a nationwide story, but she is very careful to charge the crimes that were in georgia, or that hit georgia.

so she captures. it is a very important contribution, i, think and you are right, jonah, the contrast with jack smith who started with november 14th. he went narrow, you go narrow, you go fast, he wants to get trump to trial fast and first, i think. she wants to tell the story and that is a service to the country, particularly because this is going to be a televised trial and this indictment is our insurance. if trump or another republican wins, they can pardon their way out of that jack smith case or just order doj drop the case. this is the insurance, it should be big. i think it is done carefully, it's done well, and i think it's historic. >> many people before the election of 2020 were waving the flag that donald trump was going to try to undermine this election and or you cast as people who are radical and just

didn't want trump to win, well now we have parts of the indictment citing that that was his intention. the thing that is so interesting is that mark meadows is actually named as a coconspirator, and one of the things under the jack smith indictment is that everybody wanted to know where is mark meadows. we assume that he is probably working with special counsel. people have mentioned the case before, one of the things that the dea did in that case was that she pointed out a lot of the coconspirators and that rico case. my question in this is, -- 19 other folks listed here, will the also turn on donald trump? >> the pressure begins she addressed this. >> at least five. years that is a huge power dynamic, one of these people

has a whole lot of money to defend against these cases. >> i think that what is so interesting about the indictment is that she takes a lot of time, most of the indictment is laying out these rico charges, this criminal enterprise. and not saying that it was in silos. she is saying that it is all connected. the fake electors, the tampering of the election, evidence in -- county. the calls to state officials, the misinformation and disinformation that was shared at the legislative hearings, that they are all connected. so you can't sever donald trump from rudy giuliani or anybody else. eastman, and all of these others, that they all were working together and calling each other and texting each other, innocent until proven guilty, but i think it's going to be harder to try to sever

it. it'll be interesting how they legally, because they have morning together, but now they all have got to fend for themselves. >> on one point, evan, the idea of severance. they could likely be tried. she wants to be tried together, all 19, but they could individually move to sever if there are issues of efficiency. last word. >> real quick, i'm reading this document i was looking for hints on what we might see next from jack smith and we know the investigation is continuing there. the question is, she is telling us a lot about some of the specific acts that happened in the county, which could be federal crimes by the way. some of these things that she is citing here, some of these counties could also be federal crimes. >> you guys, we are talking about a former president who now has 91 charges against him, cumulatively, across four

separate criminal allegations and indictments. 91. everyone, thank you so much. we're going to come back as well and fulton county d a fani willis speaking tonight. she has set a deadline for the defendants to surrender, her use of words, and talked about how she sees this trial and the timeline moving forward. we'll bring you all those details, next. back in a moment. carvana has hundreds of thousands of five star reviews and counting. thwhole process was really simple and easy, and this is my third time selling to carvana. you just enter your license plate or your vin, answer a few questions. boom, you get a real offer.

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breaking news tonight, the former president, donald trump indicted in the 2020 election subversion case in georgia. along, by the way, with 18 other defendants. he is charged with 13 counts in this indictment, including a racketeering -- to change the outcome of the election injury. sarah murray at the courthouse now. sarah, we have just heard from trump and his attorneys how they are responding? >> well, laura, as you might expect they are not particularly thrilled by how things have gone down today. we have heard from one of trump

's attorneys here in georgia, as well as his associates saying the events that have unfolded today have been tracking and absurd. they go on in the statement to say that it was, the district attorney clearly decided to force through and rush there's a 98-page indictment, and they say that this one granbury presentation relied on witnesses to harbor their own personal and political interests, some of whom ran campaigns touting their efforts against the accused and or profited from deals and employment opportunities. laura, as you know, most gradually presentations are pretty one-sided. that is why they say you're innocent until proven guilty, this is the indictment stage. fulton county district attorney fani willis is obviously going to have a lot of work ahead of her to bring this case to trial and to try to get convictions against the defendants. >> a really important point about the grand jury, sara, it's not as if there are other two sided graduates, it really

is a probable cause of finding, as you will know. so you're not going to have the defendants and the actual grant injury, or even out attorneys present there to answer or respond, let alone judge. but, with a credibility attacks, as you have said, are already beginning whether it is a book deals or otherwise. you have been covering and done a fine job of the different trump investigations and indictments for a while now, sarah. i wonder, what is a standing out to you about this latest one? it is the fourth. >> it's the fourth, and i think there was, in a lot of ways, a different kind of pressure on this district attorney because she is a state level prosecutor and because this investigation has been going on for so long. it has been going on for two and a half years, there were points where we thought that district attorney fani willis is going to be the first person to bring charges against trump and now it appears she is the last. i think what we saw in this indictment today is a reflection of how much of their

work they wanted to show. they want it to make it very clear that this was a granular indictment, you see that in all of these different acts that they lay out in furtherance of the conspiracy. and of course, one of the biggest differences here is that you don't see donald trump's name listed at the top of the indictment with no other names listed alongside it. and yes, this indictment includes 30 unindicted coconspirators, but it also includes 18 other name defendants. a number of people around donald trump, a number of people who were in his inner circle who are facing very serious charges, laura. >> a great point, sarah. i mean, caitlin, the thought that this is all going to be about a so-called rushed proceeding. i bet we're going to hear a lot about that given the timeline now. rushed, they mean by the fact that it happened over yesterday, it didn't start on monday, did it? this is been years in the making. now >> she started investigating right after he placed that phone call to georgia secretary of state,

brad raffensperger and, of course, we have seen -- he is accused of illegally soliciting votes from brad raffensperger in that call, laura. back here with my panel, -- scott jennings, jennifer rodgers, and temidayo aganga-williams. trump has no facing, do simple math, 91 criminal charges in four different cases. he is ten days to surrender himself here in this case, along with the other defendants. the first republican debate is nine days away? >> yeah, this is the kind of stuff that wreak havoc on a scheduling office when you're constantly turning yourself in. i don't know when he is going to turn himself in, we were joking off air a moment ago. what if he turns himself in the day of the debate and kind of takes over -- i don't know what he's going to do, but there is clear evidence that every time something happens to him, all of the medias attention goes to him. although the republican

attention goes to him, and it sucks the oxygen out of the room for everyone else. if i might, republicans tonight, here is what some are thinking. trying to put a spin on it. he is innocent until proven guilty, this is only one side of the story, hearing that. anybody remember the jury foreperson who is a little weird that came out? still on peoples minds? the documents that was posted today and then pulled down before the grand jury thought, that is being shared about? partisan democratic prosecutor, and why aren't democrats are held accountable for claiming that -- and trying to -- that is what you're going to hear over the next, it seems to me, few hours from people who are trying to be defensive of trump tonight. >> you are going to hear that. that last part is something that is often trotted out, but you can read the 98 pages here of why this is different. >> it doesn't make this good. >> a lot of this is not even

inside testimony, these are public statements, what we heard from mark meadows, what sydney powell was saying on tv. >> one of the things, and one of the arguments that falls flat often is when you hear republican illegal, quote unquote, scholars who may skew further to the right, as they say that it is very difficult to prove intent in these crimes. i say that might be one thing, but if you can couple that intent with an over act, then you have the elements of a criminal enterprise for criminal activity. he or she actually laid out, i don't know how many acts it is, but she actually laid out act after act after act, these over, outward things that donald trump and the other 18 or 19 nvidia visuals did. and so what i think fani did tonight was really comprehensive, and i want to take a moment to acknowledge who she is. whether or not it is april ryan or abby philip or, we have seen him snap at black women in

journalism. we have seen him be decently antagonistic towards black women in particular, and here he has fani willis, fani is first in swahili it means prosperous. she's the daughter of a black panther. they're going to attempt to smear someone who grew up in the movement, as part of an activist culture, who went to an hbcu for part of her scholarship and who is now on the other side of the table. and what she has shown in this indictment is not only is she more than adequate to stand toe-to-toe with any legal scholar, but she has also put together a thorough indictment, which speaks to those coupled with the intent. >> we have seen those attacks almost immediately, but it is -- they will raise questions about what she has said publicly about this, sara murray was -- before the press conference started, but when she was asked whether or not it is a political prosecution, she went out of her way to say it is not

a partisan. >> look, it is what it is going to be. we are in this time period where twitter, or what does it cold now? x? whatever it is, the website we spend way too much time on. he's on truth social, people are going to say all of these other things. but the fact is, it is going to be 12 jurors in georgia who are going to be able to, on the southern district of new york, washington d.c., miami, florida. >> before we get there, and we are going to fight this out in the court of public opinion. she is a partisan democrat and that is what they are going to say. if you are trump and you're thinking about how do i keep my people together, how do i keep folks aligned, this is obviously one of the arguments that they are going to make. now, the counter argument, if i were in the republican primary against him is that we have a simple choice to make. do we want this election to be about donald trump's legal proceedings, or do we want it to be about joe biden's job performance? every time something like this

happens, the answer to my -- in my opinion becomes more clear. >> not to voters, or at least not what we're seeing in the polls. we'll see if this change is this. thanks everybody, standby, our special coverage is going to continue breaking down and looking at this 98-page indictment. a new round of charges for the former president, but also 18 more codefendants. i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helprestore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. this is w tosin lost 33 pounds on noom weight. i'm tosin. noom gavher a psychological approach to weight loss. noom has taught me how you think about food has such a... huge impact on your relationship with it. visit noom.com and start your trial today.

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