different message to future terrorists loud and clear -- however long it takes, they will be hunted down. it's a celebrity transformation like no other. chastity bono, a little girl who grew up on tv, is now a man called chaz. >> i don't have memories until later in life. until at least, like, 4 or 5, 6. i don't remember anything from my early childhood. >> tonight he's here to tell his extraordinary story. >> why don't you like your picture? >> probably because i didn't like the way i looked. i don't know. maybe i'll start to like it the more i see myself looking different. >> when did chaz know he was meant to be a man? how did he break the news to his

partner jennifer and his mother cher. chaz bono, his first prime time interview. this is "piers morgan tonight." chaz bono tells his story in "transition, the story of how i became a man" and in the documentary "becoming chaz" which airs on own network. he joins me now. i have to start by saying i watched you on david letterman last night. one of the most amusing encounters i have seen on a talk show in years. he was so uncomfortable. he didn't know quite how to handle you, quite how to deal with what you were telling him, the enormity of what you had gone through. what was it like for you when you went on there? >> i had a really good time. i like dave a lot. i have always been a fan and he has a history with my family. so i wanted to go on the show. i thought he represented a lot of people who really don't know about this issue. it gave me a great opportunity

to break it down, you know, really simply kind of do a transgender 101. so i was really happy to do that. >> tell me this -- when he began laughing at what you were saying and some of the audience were, not all of them, but some of them were. did you feel awkward when that happened? >> no, not at all. no. it's that kind of a show. you know? it's a fun show. i never felt like people were laughing at me. it was kind of a funny situation, me and dave talking about this stuff. so, no. i had a really good time. >> it was entertaining to watch. i just wondered how you felt. >> i felt really good actually. >> for the reasons you said. like a lot of people, probably a slightly older generation would find this hard to deal with. >> hard to deal with and hard to understand i think more than anything. i mean, i never got the sense that dave was judging me or had any -- >> no, no. >> -- view at all other than not understanding it. >> do you think he got it by the end? >> i think he was starting to

get it, i do. >> do you think a few more lessons? >> yeah. you know, he was starting to get it. >> do you think it might be time to send him to some transgender classes? >> you know, i want to get him off saying "homosexual" so much. if i did that, it would be great. >> the book's fascinating. the story is fascinating. like most people i remember you as a little girl. "sonny & cher" shows. you don't have much memory of that time which i find interesting. >> when i was really little on the show and of that -- the picture everybody has in their head and that i was probably 2 or 3. no. i really don't remember that. >> i want to play you a clip from the show just to remind people who don't remember. this was you on the "sonny & cher show." >> you can be a good little angel or you can be a naughty little devil. >> i want to be a naughty devil -- >> wait, wait, no. [ cheers and applause ]

>> all right. then pull it. >> you don't remember that. now you have seen it again. >> right. >> what memory does it bring back to you, if anything? >> mostly the memory i have of that time was backstage. you know, the way kids have silly memories of things. i remember that we shot at cbs and it was right near the farmer's market and i used to like to go there and get mexican food. those types of weird things. >> do you remember being -- >> i don't remember -- >> -- part of a famous family? >> not at all. that didn't register at that point. >> as i got older, it did, but not really about me. just when i was with my parents and especially my mom just how everybody else reacted i was, of course, aware of. >> what kind of girl were you as you got past that stage and

became 7, 8, 9, when you can start to remember? what kind of girl were you? >> i was, i guess what you would call a classic tomboy. what i would say was -- i was really a boy. i felt like a boy and my friends were all boys and i was comfortable in that space in school from ages probably, you know, 6 through 10, 11. and then as i started to get older and about to head into puberty, things started to get difficult. expectations of how a young lady should act started to creep in and then of course i hit puberty and my body just started to transform in a way that was exactly the opposite of what i wanted it to do. >> were you mature enough to understand that this transformation wasn't right for you? or did you just feel odd? >> it felt like it wasn't right for me, but at that point i didn't know about, you know, being transgender.

i didn't know people could transition. i had no idea. i just knew something felt incredibly wrong and what was happening to me, particularly -- i was very aware of my breasts and that they just felt wrong on my body and that i always tried to de-emphasize them in every way. wear baggy shirts and really try to de-emphasize them in every way i could. >> at the same time you're going through this extraordinary experience and the feelings that you're having, your mother, of course, is one of the world's most famous sex sim bops, the kind of embodiment of female beauty. >> right. >> did that make it more difficult for you? >> no. i don't think -- that was kind of incidental. it was difficult in that i think as a mother and during that time period she had expectations of how she thought i was going to be, and there was friction between us because of that.

but i don't think it mattered to me one way or the other that she was a sex symbol or any of those things. >> as you got older, into your teens, you began to think in your mind that possibly you were just gay, you were a lesbian. >> that's what i initially thought. when i was about 14 i realized i'm attracted to women. and so i must be a lesbian. that must be what this feeling that i felt my whole life is. that must be the reason. >> and you weren't attracted to boys at all? >> never. no. though i have to say, i mean, i do -- i'm not used to having an hour. i can actually talk. >> don't worry. >> it's great. in looking back and really after transitioning there were some incidents when i was younger where i had really, like, guy crushes that like guys have on each other. i didn't realize it at the time and i thought, oh, this must be -- i must like him in the way a girl likes a guy.

and i would kind of, you know, pursue that and then go on a date or something and be like, this is absurd. i feel ridiculous. i don't want to be, you know, intimate with this person at all. but i really like him in a special way. it was like i was having bromances before i realized i was a guy. >> you had sex once with a man. >> once, yes. >> what was the experience like? >> just kind of bland really. it wasn't a horrific traumatic experience. it was like okay. >> why did you do that? to prove to yourself that you had at least tried it? >> it was kind of immature but i was only 16 at the time. so many people would say to me because i was out to my friends and everything and people, when i would tell them would say, how do you know? you have never been with a man. so i wanted to do it so i could say, i have done it. i know. >> so you get to your late teens. you now assume you are a lesbian. >> right.

>> what is that like for you? you start to go out with girls. does it feel natural or normal to you at the time? >> it does, but there is an expectation of the girls i'm going out with that i'm supposed to act like a girl, too. and that felt weird. like in high school, you know, i had some experiences with girls who were experimenting more and were really probably straight and actually were probably responding to my male energy because i still know them and they have never been with any other woman. so that felt really good, but then after high school when i actually started going out with lesbians, there was an expectation from them that i was supposed to act a certain way like a woman and that felt uncomfortable. >> you must be getting really confused. >> i was very confused and uncomfortable for a lot of my life. >> at what point does the confusion you have when you

think you're a lesbian start to transform into, there's something else here? >> right. >> and at what point do you work out what that something else may be? >> for me it was a long process actually. and it was probably around 30, 31. and i remember i was dating somebody who had a lot of lesbian friends. so i was doing a lot of different -- going to a lot of social events. i can remember being at some big house barbecue and there were a lot of lesbians around and i was sitting back watching, thinking, and looking at everybody. i realized that even the more masculine women there still had a really strong female identity. it dawned on me that i never had that. and so at that point i started to think maybe i'm not a lesbian. if i'm not, what am i? at that point i started to go

back over my life in my head and put these different things together. >> we're going to have a short break. when we come back, we'll get to the moment when you decide, i want to be a man. >> okay. >> i'm also going to hear from nick cannon about a scam targeting his wife mariah carey and their babies. >> saying my wife was drinking beer and all that stuff. people will do anything to try to conjure up a story. ♪

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everything is changing. there is so much clarity coming. i'm sure there will be more things i will discover that i didn't realize until i went on hormones and started to feel comfortable. >> i'll give you a mirror if you want to see. >> nice and flat, huh?

>> looks beautiful. >> there you go. >> that was from the documentary "becoming chaz." it's extraordinary. chaz bono is with me now. it is an extraordinary documentary. >> thank you. >> it's an extraordinary story and it centered around the pivotal moment when you decide, i actually want to be a man. >> mm-hmm. >> i'm going to do something about this. tell me about that moment. >> well, it was a long time coming. i think i started to put it together in my early 30s. and then suddenly, i was like, what can i do about this? i'm a public figure. if i transition, the whole world's going to know. i felt like, you know, i'm just going to be -- i don't know -- a laughingstock. so it took me years and years to get over the myriad of fears that i had about it. in the end i think it was -- i finally started to put my needs above everybody else's.

that's what it took for me. i was the kind of person who always worried about everybody else before me and thought of everybody else's feelings. >> you know what, this is my life. >> exactly. this is my life. i'm going to be 40. i need to do this for myself. and the actual moment happened kind of in two parts. in a therapy session where i had the epiphany. this is my life and i need to do this. i went home and was talking to jenny about it and we got into this huge fight. >> this is your girlfriend. >> my girlfriend. >> she's coming on in a moment. >> exactly. i got so -- she triggered something in me in this fight and i had this primal experience happen of i think all of the repression, feelings i had stuffed down for so many years came out in this enormous primal scream and we literally

afterwards both knew this has got to happen. >> and, remarkably -- i don't say remarkably, i don't know here at all, but jennifer stayed with us and supported you. difficult though it's been for her. >> mm-hmm. >> we'll discuss with her how difficult it's been. pretty amazing that she's done that. >> it is. >> we'll listen to a clip of your mother cher, her reaction to your transition. >> it's been difficult for different -- anyone different from burning people they thought were witches, any time you're different, you're going to pay some sort of a price. it depends on the culture as to what price you pay. you know? and chaz works with children as young as 3 and 4 that just feel that they are in the wrong body and she does counseling, you know -- he does counseling. so it's a very difficult thing. >> even your mother's not quite

sure if you're he or she, chaz. that's an uncomfortable moment. >> i mean for her, look, it's ingrained. 40 years of saying "she." so it takes time to get out of the habit. >> be brutally honest. >> okay. >> your mom, from all i have read, wasn't happy about the fact that you were a lesbian to start with. your father sonny reacted better to that. is that correct? >> that is correct, yes. >> when you come with the other whammy which is, mom, if you thought that was bad, take a load of this. how did she react when you first said -- by then she'd gotten used to you being a lesbian. >> definitely. >> she was supportive and became a loving mother. >> absolutely. >> then you hit her with the new bombshell. how did she react? >> again, we talked about it over time. it wasn't like one bombshell. >> she knew. >> she knew it was something i was feeling and struggling with and i was trying to figure out.

when i finally went to her shortly after the incident with jen and told her, i'm going to do this. you know i have been struggling with this and i realize this is something i need to do and i'm going to do it. she was actually unbelievably supportive. just like amazing. i kind of couldn't believe it. she was so calm and we had a wonderful talk about it. and then i think as the reality started to hit her, it became more difficult for her. she's talked about when my voice started to change it really hit her. >> she's now got a son for the first time in 40 years. >> yes. she had to grieve the loss of her daughter. of that little bit of female side that i had. and as time has gone on, i think she's become more and more comfortable and understanding about it. i think she'll continue to. >> you certainly put her through the hoops, haven't you, chaz? let's be honest. >> i guess.

but i have always been a pretty, you know, good kid, a good guy. you know, this is how i was born. >> do you think your mother knew? do you think she had an inkling from an earlier age? >> i think when i was really young she thought i was going to grow up and be gay. i think that's what she thought. i don't think she thought this. i grew up in the '70s. we didn't know about this. >> completely. to your great credit you have become a kind of trailblazer for this. >> yeah. >> the moment you told your mother about it, she being famous around the world, you having grown up in a fame bubble, you both would have known the moment it got out it would be a huge story possibly to beat you both with. >> i think that was one of the areas that we kind of, you know, disagreed on a little bit. i think she thought it was going to be much more difficult. i had faith that we'd come to a

place as a culture that we would be able to be more respectful. >> tell me, since this has all blown up and you have been on tv everywhere, have you been vindicated on your belief on that? when you walk around, are people supportive to you? >> very. >> are you amazed how far america has come? >> i have been amazed how the media has covered this and how fair and open-minded everybody seemed to be. yeah. you know, if somebody recognizes me, i always get, you know, a really positive response from them. you know -- >> of course had you done this 25 years ago. >> it would have been different. >> you may have been abused in the street. >> absolutely. >> you have had none of that? >> none of that. >> that's a remarkable sign of the times. >> yes. >> does it make you feel good? >> absolutely. it makes me feel really great. i went to the yankees store to buy a cap and the guy recognized me and couldn't have been cooler. hey, chaz. oh, cool. that was it.

>> that must make you feel good. >> it does. >> hey, chaz. that's cool. >> exactly. >> we'll take a break. when we come back we'll come to somebody else who's cool which is your girlfriend who stood by you throughout all this. >> mm-hmm. >> who is as brave as you. >> she is. ♪ [ male announcer ] in 2011, at&t is at work, building up our wireless network all across america. we're adding new cell sites... increasing network capacity, and investing billions of dollars to improve your wireless network experience. from a single phone call to the most advanced data download, we're covering more people in more places than ever before in an effort to give you the best network possible. at&t. rethink possible.

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well, i was sober when we met. but when things get tough i start to drink. i remember when chaz told me that he was going to do this and i said, well, i can't be sober for this. >> that's chaz bono's girlfriend jennifer who joins us now. in many ways you have been through an even more dramatic period of your life than chaz. at least he knew kind of what was going on. you didn't have a clue, did you? >> early in the relationship i was told by a friend of his that he was, indeed, transgender and i asked him. he said -- this was in our first year and within the first few

months. he said he was, but he wasn't planning on doing anything about it at the time. he was comfortable living as masculine as possible but he would, indeed, want to do it at some point. >> what was your honest reaction when he said that? >> i compartmentalized it and put it away. >> wow. that's quite something to compartmentalize. >> it's amazing what i can compartmentalize. >> your girlfriend says i may become a man and you compartmentalize it. >> i said, hmm, we're okay for now. i walked into the kitchen and went about my day, but i knew for years we would have to deal with this at some point. i knew he would have to do this. >> the great advantage of having you as a girlfriend is i think you're bisexual, correct? >> correct. >> so you would be the perfect person to potentially find him as attractive as a man as he was as a woman. >> right. >> the question now is do you?

>> oh, find him more attractive as a man. >> you lucked out. >> i did. >> he did. yes. i mean, you know, i am attracted to both men and women but it is different to have that happen in the same person. >> it was it was all unfurling, when you broke from and he was going for the treatment and the testosterone and the hormones and everything else and he's becoming a man in front of your eyes, beginning to shave and you had your breasts removed and everything. so you're physically becoming a man. when you're seeing that process, what's going through your mind? was it concerning you? did you freak out? did you have arguments? >> well, there are two components. there is the physical and emotional. the physical, the major change first was the top surgery. i was very nervous about that. i was very nervous about going to san francisco.

that's where he did it. i had no idea how i would react. but to my surprise i was thrilled. like i got it. when i saw his chest the way it looks now i thought, oh, right, this makes sense. i was surprised. i actually thought i might miss the other, but it worked. >> physically there wasn't a problem. what about psychologically? >> emotionally, we went through a lot of work. you go from being in a female dynamic, even though i believe chaz was always male. he had estrogen. so you have two estrogens in the house and then it goes to estrogen/testosterone. and that sentence adjustment. >> without being too purient but has your sex life been affected adversely or for the good? >> for the good. >> that's a remarkable thing, isn't it? >> yeah. >> it is.

very fortunate. it can't always be the case. >> no. it's not always the case, but it does happen. i know other -- we know people who have gone through the transition together. but, you know, we feel lucky. >> do you know people where it hasn't worked? once the transitions happened they split up? >> i don't actually. i only know one other couple that had very similar circumstances to ours and they are, you know, happily married now. >> is part of the reason that you feel able to deal with it, jennifer, that he's happier in himself as a man than he was as a woman. >> and that affects everything. it affects our emotional section, our sex life, everything. when you have a partner who is happy in their skin and happy in general, not depressed and feeling completely in the wrong body, it changes everything. >> are you happy now or are you still slightly wrestling with

what's going on? >> not at all. i'm incredibly happy, and i feel really comfortable for the first time. i honestly didn't realize how difficult things were before until i had this to compare it to. >> i have never met you before, but if i didn't know the story, you look like a guy. >> right. >> you dress well in a smart suit, you got the big bulky watch. >> that's great. >> is that a patronizing things to say? >> it's a compliment. >> i always felt like a guy and now i'm able to look like a guy and be a guy. so that's what it was about for me always was, you know, getting all of this on the outside to match how i felt in here. >> for you it's not been plain sailing. there's a story in the book that you were totally sober when you were with chastity, yes? >> no. i was always chaz. >> when you were with chaz, but

you got back onto the alcohol. why was that? >> well, i can't blame it solely on chaz's transition. my sobriety has been a struggle for years. so it's been an off and on thing for me. but i have had periods of time of sobriety, but when he did tell me that he was going to do this, i used it as a pass for myself, which only an alcoholic would do. >> for you, chaz, when you saw jennifer fall off the wagon is bit, did it worry you that perhaps the stress of everything you had put her through was now coming out in alcohol? >> actually, no. what it made me was angry really. it was different because i think in the past i would have been, you know -- and she had in the past fallen off the wagon and i was, i was really scared and worried and what's going to happen, and the difference this time that i really have had to learn to deal with the most through this is anger. and i got really angry, and i got really shut down, and i put her through a lot.

it was really hard and we had to really work in therapy and everything to get back on track. >> and how are things right now? >> really good. >> very good. i have a year and two months sober. and, you know, things have leveled out. >> i feel like -- we might disagree on this, but i feel that his -- i don't know. i feel that his levels of testosterone -- i make up medical advice in my head. >> it's true. >> you bifeel his hormonal level has balanced. i feel he's adjusted more. >> i think that's what it is. i have adjusted to it more. >> adapted more. >> you physically going through that when you get pumped full of hormones and testosterone you aren't going to be quite as balanced as you'd like to. >> most men, you know, it happens when they are teenagers and they have a long time to get used to it. for me it happened at 40. i really had to adjust to having, you know, a range of emotion i didn't have before.

>> we're going to have a short break. when we come back i want to get to the nitty-gritty. are you going to get married now? >> oh, my gosh. >> and, i don't know, can we talk about children? >> sure. >> sure. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 are still talking about retirement tdd# 1-800-345-2550 like it's some kind of dream. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 it's either this magic number i'm supposed to reach, or... tdd# 1-800-345-2550 it's beach homes or it's starting a vineyard. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 come on ! tdd# 1-800-345-2550 just help me figure it out tdd# 1-800-345-2550 in a practical, let's-make- this-happen kind of way. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 a vineyard ? schwab real life retirement services is personalized, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 practical help that's focused on making your retirement real. open an account today and talk to chuck tdd# 1-800-345-2550 about setting up your one-on-one consultation. tdd# 1-800-345-2550

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>> okay. draw back a little. now push in. pull it out fast. okay. good, jenny. >> people think i'm a -- idiot. >> well, you know. >> see, it's so easy. i don't know why you were freaking out. you wouldn't let me do it for -- what, six months? it's not hard. did it even hurt? >> no. it was good. thanks. >> you're on your way, kid. >> greater love. there's no woman that can do that, right? >> right. >> do you ever miss the female chaz? >> not so much anymore, but i went through a period where i definitely did. i had to adjust to the new male chaz in the sense of testosterone and estrogen.

there was a softness that chaz had as a female that is different now as a male. >> from a technical point of view are you now a straight guy? >> sure, yeah. >> and you can't be a lesbian anymore. >> i'm a bisexual woman. >> you have remained one? >> i stayed that way. there you go. >> do you amuse yourselves when you explain this to people who don't get it? >> we amused dave. he did. >> what did you think watching that? >> i thought it was great. i thought he was great. when he heard bisexual girlfriend he was like, oh, i don't know, forget it. so, i get it, you know? i suppose it can be confusing to people. we are in a straight relationship now. >> the obvious question then becomes you have been together six years now? >> six in august. >> will you get married? >> i would like to. will we, piers, will we?

>> chaz? there's a glauntlet that's been thrown down there. here's your chance. >> we have been engaged for two years. kind of had to put things on hold a little bit. i think the other thing is we have both been real -- >> i think the lady would like you to get on with it. >> she would. >> now being a man you have no excuse. >> no, we don't. but the one thing we talked about is how we are big supporters of marriage equality. it's weird to be able to do it now. >> are you legally now able to marry as a man and wife? >> yeah. >> would you choose to do that? >> i think we will. hopefully people will understand that's something we want to do. >> before you were considering a civil partnership? >> yeah. >> actually, we really weren't actually. >> okay. >> it was legal for a while. >> we had a window. >> i knew at that point i was going to transition. it didn't feel right to me to get married as two women because

i didn't feel like i was a woman. >> it seems to me you have a lot of excuses to avoid taking jennifer down the aisle and she made it absolutely crystal clear she'd like you to. >> i know. >> i agree. >> he's now behaving like a typical man. >> he is. >> which is comforting. >> no, no. it's something we are going to be doing. >> is there a window we are talking about? >> there is no ultimatum. i'm here. we're here. we have been through a lot. >> i would say within a year definitely. >> not to make excuses but we went through a lot. i transitioned, she went to grad school. we were making the film. i wrote the book. >> i had to get sober again. it was a nightmare. >> now i feel once this is over we can sit down and plan a wedding. >> that would be some wedding. don't you think? >> i hope so. it would be nice. >> the circumstances would be remarkable. >> yeah. >> quite a moment for you two. >> it would be a lot. >> do you dream of a church wedding? have you thought you may do it one day?

>> it's funny. we differ on our -- how we would like to get married. >> quiet registry office with no one watching. big church wedding. >> i was raised catholic. >> like me. >> i feel that i need to be married by some religious figure. a rabbi, priest, someone with a connection to god. i don't know. >> yeah. i'm not -- >> he's not like that. >> i was never religious. i really want my step-mom to do it. >> and that's good for me. >> to me that would be special. >> perfect timing. we are going to talk to your stepmother who is another remarkable woman in your life. >> amazing. >> you pay great tribute to her in the book and we can put the question to her about the wedding of the century which i'm now creating as we speak. >> oh, my goodness. >> also we have nick cannon on the extraordinary tabloid scam targeting his twins with mariah carey.

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i'm back with chaz bono and

his girlfriend jennifer. we are also being joined by chaz's stepmother who is a congresswoman mary bono mack. we left on a cliffhanger where i managed to hear a potential marriage between the newly male chaz and jennifer. chaz was saying you are entitled to act as the person that marries them. the obvious question is would you like to do that? >> well, piers, great timing, but first i want to commend you on being able to make chaz feel like a man and put the squeeze on him to hurry up and get this done. my husband told me something that's very important with marriage. that is, you can be right or you can be happy. and chaz, jenny said a church and i'm so honored you would suggest me. i think they need to work this out a little further rather than the pressures tonight. i'm honored and chaz is one of

the greatest blessings in my life. i'm honored that he would request that of me. >> without wishing to push it too far but clearly jennifer has expressed her wish. should we get to a stage within the year-long window within which chaz has now said he would be held to and we get to the church and you are asked formally to be the officiator, would you do it? >> you know, honestly i would be deeply honored to. i think we have to have family discussions and i don't see why i wouldn't. but being put on the spot right here to do it, i guess i would feel more comfortable if i heard the two of them make the commitment and the actual ask. >> i guess i'm managing to maneuver this the way jennifer would like it to go. let me move away from this to something more serious. i'm fascinated to know what you think sonny bono would have made of this. chaz made it clear that sonny was more tolerant when he said he was going to be a lesbian

than his mother was. would it be right to assume he would have been equally tolerant by this turn of events? >> it's so hard to guess how sonny would have felt about this, you know, any more than anything else. he's been gone 13 years. it's always hard to second guess him. my hunch is that he would have been frustrated or scared or worried. you know, all of the fears you have about this but eventually he would have come around and done what you do. that is you love your family and you do your very best to help them through whatever they're going through. i know that sonny loved chaz with every bone in his body. i believe that he would have loved him no matter what. i don't believe that would have changed. >> it would be fair to say that your support for what is happening here wouldn't be massively popular with the republican party that you represent. is that an unfair thing of me to observe?

>> oh, you know, this is family. and family is so important and chaz has been such a hugely important part of my life, but the same token, i kind of rib chaz because i'm not really popular in chaz's community either. so we have some fun going back and forth on that. >> it's true. >> sometimes we agree to disagree on things, but at the end of the day, chaz campaigned for me when i ran as a republican running for congress. so we put our love for one another ahead of politics. >> yeah. actually, i mean, it's been an amazing experience because mary and i have always gotten along. we love each other deeply and it goes beyond politics. it really does. i talk about this in the book that, you know, that side of the family was so amazingly there for me. and sometimes we get in these, you know, party battles, and they are just things more important to that and you can't just books by their cover all the time. >> having said that -- let me

ask you, congresswoman. that's very decent of him to say that, but the reality is there's a political aspect to this and there are big issues involving the whole range of gay and lesbian rights, transgender rights and so on. do you hope that the publicity surrounding chaz's story may lead to a more tolerant, dare i say liberal attitude towards that kind of thing? >> well, you know, i don't want to throw out any political terms or label anybody anything here. but i'm always one who believes we can learn something from everybody's story wherever we ka hear it, that there are bits of it to learn and we can all gain some wisdom and happiness from watching other people's stories and accepting them and trying to hear a little bit. you know, i'll be very candid. this is a strange story and hard to wrap your arms around it. we're still coming to terms with. what i'm not coming to terms with is the fact that i love chaz deeply and chaz has always been a huge and very important part of my life and my children's life.

that's what's important to me here. chaz and i learned a long time ago, because there was a rough period with sonny and chaz on some political differences, and i think we learned that we don't take those differences when it starts getting a little bit askew, we stop talking politics. it's not worth it. you're making pasta and behind the living room door and you're home. we just don't do it. we agree to disagree and love and laugh and that's really cool. >> to sum up, love conquers all, right, chaz? >> absolutely, it does. mare is 100% right. with my dad we let that get in the way and when he passed away, you know, it's like never again. and so you know mary and i love each other. we do. if it gets too heated we back right off because it's our family that matters and being part of that family and that's what's important. and i have an amazing time with that family.

>> well, look, chaz, i think you're an amazingly courageous man. >> thank you. >> i that i you're an amazingly courageous woman. and congresswoman, you've been an amazingly courageous and supportive stepmother. the whole story i find very uplifting and the fact that you're now happy and you're happy makes me happy. i think it makes everybody happy. doesn't it? if you're not happy you're a cynic and you don't deserve happiness. thank you for joining me. good luck with it all. i want to be at the wedding with my cameras recording every moment live on cnn. fair enough? have we got a deal? >> we have a deal. >> get her down the aisle, chaz. that's what guys have to do. all right? thank you both very much. coming up, nick cannon and a tabloid scam. in a new chevy camaro ?

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controversy tonight involving mariah carey and her infant twins. nick cannon said the babies have not come home from the hospital but are already the targets of a shocking tabloid scam. this was a disturbing story today. when you were in the hospital and mar rinne was there that you got set up for some sort of tabloid sting. what was going on.

>> more than one incident, actually. there's been photographers actually in the hospital posing as different people. real employees trying to get pictures of our kids which is really sad when you think about people trying to make a buck off newborn babies. recently there was the child protective services were called with allegations that, you know, there was some drinking and drugs and all that going on while in the hospital, which, again, makes no sense to me. like, how would a hospital even allow that? but it all started where a nurse suggested to my wife that if you drink guinness, a small amount of guinness, the dark beer, it improves the yeast for breastfeeding. the east improves breastfeeding. i don't know if someone overheard that and said my wife

was drinking beer. people will do anything to conjure up a story. >> somebody turned up from child protection. >> literally talking to me. of course, when i spoke to the person from the child protective services they said this is ridiculous. we're going to make sure this isn't a case. >> horrible thing to have to go through. >> to even have to deal with that. my wife in the state she's in, we're in the hospital and to even have to think of someone possibly wanting to investigate your children and all. it's just -- it's sad at the end of the day we have to go that far. >> is it one of the down sides of fame that you were talking about? >> it is. but at the end of the day tough understand this is what we have to deal with. it's sad. i'm more disappointed in society more than having to be at odds because we're famous. that people would even go to those lengths to even kind of do something to a family at such a beautiful time in their life.