[bird singing] [vinyl record crackling and popping] ♪ david: this is my kitchen table and also my filing system.

over much of the past three decades, i have been an investor. [applause] the highest calling of mankind i've often thought is private equity. [laughter] and then i started interviewing. i watched your interviews so i know how to do some interviewing. [laughter] i learned in doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. >> i asked him how much he wanted. he said 250. i said fine. i did not negotiate with him. i did no due diligence. david: i have something i would like to sell. and how they stay there. you don't feel inadequate being only the second wealthiest man in the world. is that right? [laughter] i am here with sheikh hamad bin jassim bin jaber al thani, who is the former prime minister and foreign minister of qatar. and we are in his home in doha. thank you for having us here. hamad: pleasure, david. david: for 20 years you were the foreign minister of qatar and for another six plus years you were simultaneously the prime minister. so, is it a pleasant situation where you don't have to worry about all those problems anymore or did you love those jobs so much you wish you had them again?

hamad: wish them again? no. first of all, history does not go back. the second thing is i think every part of your life has -- if you know how to use it, you will be excited in it. i used my life from the beginning when i was junior in the governments until i become minister of municipality, minister of foreign affairs, prime minister, deputy prime minister. it took me a journey of 30 years of working in the government. 32 years, actually. i believe now, i have a new chapter. i don't believe in retirement. but i believe that every age, every time of your life there is something you can do and you can do it and add value in your life

and around you. david: so now you are spending a lot of time with your investment activities, which are quite extensive around the world? hamad: i am doing that and i have, my father and i, my own charity. which i'm involved in it and i am pleased with it. i built it since my father died. i think that is also for me, a very important part of my function or my life daily. especially with all the situation around us now in syria and turkiye and you see this tragedy in other places. so, it gives me pleasure to work on that and to do with my team. and yes, i am doing business all over the world. and this is not only to do business, but as i told you, to be a fellow which can add value for yourself and your family. david: so let's talk about when

you were prime minister and foreign minister, i should add that you were also the chairman of the qatar investment authority. the qia. that can keep you pretty busy with all those jobs. as the head of qatar investment authority, you made some large investments for qatar. one of them is harrods, the department store in london. the famous shard building in london. investments in volkswagen and barclays and other things. those investments seem to have worked out ok. how did you manage being the foreign minister, the prime minister and the head of qia at the same time? doesn't that take a lot of time? hamad: i think it was tough for me, because i was working with no weekend. and i was working sincerely more than what i should do. and if it is a candle, it would've been burned now completely. even in my vacation, i was working and meeting people. you know me.

david: right. hamad: we meet on my holiday and we see each other and we discuss business. it was tough, but it was a challenge because at that time, we started qia with no money, literally. and we started with nothing, aiming that the gas will give us flow of money so we started with loans, actually. most of these transactions have been done by loans from the banks. and thanks god, the plan worked. we get good revenue from the oil and gas. from the gas, actually. oil, we have very little oil. but, that revenue all went to the investment authority. david: as we talk today, it has been rumored in the press that the qia is looking to buy a very famous team in the english soccer premier league called manchester united. so i don't know whether it will happen, but are you surprised the interest in the middle east

about the english premier soccer league? there is so much interest. many countries seem to have investors that own teams. are you a big football fan yourself? hamad: david, you know i am not a football fan. and we talked about this a few times. and for me, i don't believe or i don't like this investment. maybe it work well. some of my sons like this. and they always discuss with me why we don't invest in these things. why. they are pushing hard. for me, i thought this is not my specialty. let me put it like this. i am an investor. if it will be one day as a good investment, i will think about it. but if not, i will not look at it as something just for an advertisement. i am not of that category. david: the world cup, when it

was here, was an investment by your country and i guess attracting people here. and millions of people came. was that, in the end, do you think a good investment or not clear yet? hamad: let me put it this way, you know me, i am always frank. if it was my choice, it would not be done at that time. when i was in the government, and prime minister, and this idea come by his highness and his crown prince at that time, they know that i am against that idea because i think there is a lot of money and effort will be spent. we can spend it on something else and it will be good for the people and the country. but if you ask me now, i will tell you there was a lot of outcome. positive outcome out of this. look at the people which they visit qatar. i know most of them are from the business communities. and people that are active all over the world. they came, some of them, first time and they are coming again.

they are bringing their families. so it start working that people are saying, ah, there is a place. we did not see it. it is a good place. the outcome of that tournament was positive from different way. good organized. well organized. organized. despite all the noise, negative noise the last 10 years which we hear about it. the outcome when we said no alcohol or the government decide no alcohol, we find people are thinking, ah, that is good. i can take my child. my girl can go along. nobody can talk to her. nobody can -- there is no one incident happened. organization was excellent. and i think this is the first and the last one where you can see the matches in the same day and you don't miss any matches because of how close it is. so it was unique for that. the outcome was good.

and for the country. ♪

david: let's talk about your country for a moment. the country is a very wealthy country. maybe the wealthiest country in the world per capita. where does the wealth of the country come from? hamad: the wealth of the country, as you know, came from oil and gas, and mainly gas now. and i think this is, you know -- we cannot say we contribute a lot. we contribute to take it out. maybe. and doing the right decision with the right partner. i don't think that is an innovation, you know, when you say how you get your wealth, if you are a country without any resources and you do well like switzerland, like japan, these

countries have no resources, and right now, their gdp is high and they are doing very well. but for us, the challenge will be ok with all this wealth. what you are going to do with this wealth, and how you can preserve it for the future. that is the challenge. david: so when you were growing up, this was not an extremely wealthy city, country. hamad: no, it was not wealthy city definitely. it was moderate. you know that time if you compare the 10 countries, rich countries, it is very strange. in the 1950's or 1960's, one is lebanon and egypt. not you, the american. not us on that list. david: right. hamad: and you see how things change. david: when i first came here, more than 30 years ago, there was only one building that was more than four or five stories. the hotel. hamad: that is true. david: now, doha looks like manhattan except it is more

modern than manhattan in many ways. it's stunning the example of what you can do with the wealth if you deploy it appropriately. all of these buildings, who is occupying these buildings? are these local people? are they oil companies? who is occupying all the buildings and residences i see now? hamad: well, i think it is the same when you go to new york and you find oversupply in office and in commercial. i think we have oversupply now in the market. because this was a good business for everybody. so, everybody was building either office or residential or retail, aiming that it would be rented by one of the companies because there was and still there is a lot of work. right now, i think the people have to study what is surplus, and i think we have surplus in the offices and the retail. not maybe the residents. the residential part. but it needs carefully for any investors to make his own calculation.

i think now we are in oversupply and we have surplus, which the effects start to be felt in the financial market. david: now, when you were foreign minister, you were jetting around the world a fair bit, trying to solve a lot of problems and you did solve a number of them. one that has not yet been resolved is the one you have worked on a lot. the palestinian issue. you have a very close relationship with many of the palestinian leaders. do you see any way, in your lifetime or my lifetime, there will be a resolution of that issue? hamad: my dream is to see this solved. and see that we live with the palestinians, live with the israelis in peaceful country because both of them, they are talented people. the palestinian and the jew, they are talented people. and one day i told them a joke. if they become united or work together, we should be scared of the both of them. in my opinion. but when?

that's -- need leadership in both sides would like to take step. it is not leadership in america to push them. we need a leader or facilitator -- the united states has to be the facilitator for that. and the arabs. very important to be part of this. but, it need two leaders and they are not there at the moment, from the palestinian side and from the israeli side. we need another rabin from the israeli side. from the palestinian side, now he did what he did in oslo and things. i don't want to evaluate the guy, you know? he is a friend and i know him. but, i think we need to see new leadership which have commitment from the palestinian side. i don't believe to solve the problem to do abraham things. or i think this is in a kind of

-- i'm sorry to say this word. i think this is childish. because, we are talking about normalization. we have no problem with the israelis to normalize the situation. we talked with the israelis daily when i was in my office. they was having office here. even when we shut the office, we was talking to them from the intelligent to the foreign minister to the prime minister. and we can talk to them. but to, kind of, build a new idea with no vision or no target, peace target, not just to talk. it is too early to do all this unless you have a plan what to do. because what i am worried is within 10 years if there is

nothing happened or maybe before that, we find ourselves in another intifadah, on the palestinian side, and we will find the arabs here, saying what are you doing as a government? david: the abraham accords have not been signed by qatar yet, or maybe they won't. you say that is not likely, because you say that is not going to solve the problems that you think are important? hamad: maybe our government will sign it one day. i don't know. i am not part of the governments. but, but my opinion, tell me what we will gain from this. the relationship? we have a relationship. everybody has a relationship with the israelis. all these countries that did abraham they have a relation with israel. we don't need that. we need all of us to talk to the israelis and tell them we will do normalized business. we will do embassies like in the arab plan which king abdullah said. even better than that. but let us sit and try to find the solution on the ground.

david: now, many people in the west were surprised when there was a dispute between saudi arabia and uae and qatar a few years ago. it is now resolved. the essence of that dispute was never that clear to people but do you think that is now way behind the countries and that is not going to come back again? hamad: it is way behind. come back or not come back, i don't know, but i wish not. i think everybody learn his part of that conflict and learned where is the red line for each country. they know our red line. we know their red line. and i think that is important to know. what is good now that there is a good momentum. and i want this momentum to be reflective in the gcc. the gcc is dead. since 2012, 2013, even when i was a foreign minister, the gcc was dead the last 12, 13 years.

we only use the gcc when there is crisis, military crisis or we need to take a decision. you ask us to take a decision in the region and need to be in the name of the gcc. i want the gcc to be more effective in the life of the people, so they feel they have benefit from this unity between the gcc. the gcc still is still not there. david: are you worried about iran? many countries in the arab world are worried about iran. but, iran was somewhat faithful to you when you had your dispute with saudi arabia. hamad: that's true. david: is iran not as big a concern for you as it is for saudi arabia? hamad: the first fear for me is not iran. the first fear is us in the region. the way how we behave. i mean, the leader. i'm not one of them. i think if we can control our happiness and our frustration

and when we are angry, to put it as a statement in a box and say ok, we work. we have some difference with x country or that. this difference has to be discussed in a civilized way. and also to look, ok, if we have challenges and if we agree, iran is our first enemy, how we can deal with this matter? are we going to deal with it through direct negotiation? through war? nobody want war, because that is not in our benefit. the problem that this decision is not with us because, we are not in the position at the moment because of what i said about the gcc. to take that leadership for our region and say, ok, we have a problem with iran, we sit with them and discuss details frankly, and reach a solution.

because, i believe we should leave the gulf area in harmony between iran, iraq, and the gcc countries. if we can do that, i think this is a big achievement not only for the peace, for trade, the business and the economy. they have over 100 million people. and iraq have like, 40 million people. we have like, 50 million people. you know, you are talking about 200 or 250 million people. rich country with oil. imagine what they will do. ♪ david: you and the amir retired at the same time. was it hard to give up that much power? hamad: if somebody goes and takes me back, i don't want to do what i was doing. it's done, it's enough. ♪

david: so in the united states, you met with a number of presidents. hamad: i did.

david: i guess president clinton? hamad: george bush the father until i know biden and i know even trump, so i know all of them. david: did you ever have a hard time getting to see a u.s. president? or, you said you were coming to washington. hamad: it depends. it depends. sometimes, if they are upset with us, it is hard. david: oh. hamad: sometimes if they are not upset, i see them in the white house. that happens when al jazeera is part of the problem. i have to say the best relationship we had at that time was president clinton, and he is a great guy. he is a great guy. how he can manage a situation. david: when you were foreign minister and prime minister, i sometimes would come to talk to you about investment matters. i would see other well-known investment people coming. hamad: before, before i am, before i am prime minister and before i was foreign investment, we was doing private as a private client.

david: right. hamad: with you. david: that is right. how do you juggle -- you have a prime minister coming to see you, a foreign minister, an investment person. you have to change your brain for all these different people coming in. you must have been working seven days a week to do all that. hamad: for me, it was tough. but, i was used to work for long hours. so, it was not -- in the end, last two years, i felt inside deep me that i hate the job. i just want to leave. and this is maybe i say it late in some programs i was suggesting to the amir, two years before we left together, that i want to leave. david: you and the amir retired at more or less the same time. hamad: exactly. david: very often, it is hard to give up power voluntarily.

people lose elections but here, they don't have elections. so, you voluntarily decided to step back from that position. was it hard to give up that much power, and you are happier now than you were then? hamad: i am happier, definitely. and if, this is sincere, if somebody go and take me back, i don't want to do what i was doing. it is done. it is enough. i did what i did. right, wrong, i did it. at that time. i think i did more right things than wrong things. but also, i did things in the space of time, very short time. i did a lot of things. achievement. i think, which i am happy. for me, uh, the world now so slow. david: right. hamad: in decision. i will not be part. i cannot see myself to go and do that. david: if somebody is watching and they say i don't know much about qatar, what would you say you would want people to know about your country? hamad: i think our culture is something need to be seen.

people, what they know about us, they know about oil and gas. rich people, or they know about our camels. we are proud about camels. we are also happy about the gas. but, they have to see this guy which owns the camel and the oil and gas. is he capable? is he did well with what he has? and that is the proof you can see in front of you. david: you can see your incredible career in business, investments, diplomacy. what would you like to see your legacy be or is your legacy going to be your children? hamad: first, i want to be seen as a human being. qatar human being. i am proud about this country. about my country. more than what anybody think. and i am so attached. even i'm traveling a lot now, but i am attached to this thing so i am proud that i am qatari. second things, one of my legacy is my charity which i am building it very rapidly.

that is something i need to leave it for my children. the third thing is i need my children to work together and that's very difficult and i need to set an example for the families in qatar and other regions how the children, despite their different education, different ideas, how they can work together as one unity. that is a big challenge for me. ♪

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