america's top diplomat tells the bbc he's prepared to take steps against china if it continues to support russia's war effort. if you want have better relations with us in countries in europe, it can't do that at the same time. as the world's first personalised vaccine for melanoma skin cancer is being tested, we'll speak to a melanoma survivor about why this is a potential "gamechanger" for treatment. donald trump's criminal trial on charges of falsifying business records to conceal a hush money payment to a porn star continues. i'm outside the court room where the defence has just started

cross—examining a tabloid executive who said he helped the trump campaign suppress stories. scotland's first minister humza yousaf weighs up his future — as he faces a vote of no confidence after his power—sharing deal with the greens collapsed. and two of the most valuable items ever to be salvaged from the titanic — which go under the hammer this weekend. welcome to verified live, three hours of breaking stories, and checking out the truth behind them. the us top diplomat, antony blinken, has told the bbc that he is prepared to take steps against china if beijing continues to send key supplies to russia which are used to aid its invasion of ukraine. the secretary of state has been holding talks with the chinese leader, xijinping, for talks in beijing — where he also raised concerns about taiwan, and industrial espionage. mr xi in return called for greater mutual co—operation, so both countries could succeed. after that meeting, mr blinken sat

down with the bbc�*s laura bicker. what were the biggest points of contention for you? i was last here ten months ago and that really kicked off much greater engagement between our countries, diplomatic engagement with a number of my colleagues coming to china and most importantly president biden and president xi meeting at the end of last year. they agreed it was very important to sustain this diplomatic dialogue and communication because we have an obligation to try to manage the relationship between our countries responsibly given the importance it has for our own people and people around the world. that has two aspects. one is making sure we communicate

clearly in areas where we have differences, to avoid miscalculations and misunderstandings. the other is to see if we can build greater co—operation in areas where we have mutual interest in doing that. that is exactly what i was focused on here, carrying that agenda forward. and clearly there are areas where we have profound differences but we are talking about it and making our intentions clear but also is in progress and areas of co—operation on military to military communications. now a dialogue in al. and we also to build up people up people to people exchanges. what you need to walk away with to make this trip a success for you? we've seen ready that this is a process and is not like flicking a switch. presidents agreed we'd co—operate on countering narcotics, opioids, the biggest cause of death for young

people and though it is made with chemicals, precursors that get synthesised into this opioid. those chemicals are often manufactured in china for totally appropriate legal purposes but they get diverted to illegal organisations that turn interventional and are sent to the us. we have seen a real change from china trying to deal with that but in our conversations today we focus on how to carry that forward to have a real impact and make sure we have results, looking for steps china can take to counter that. as you mentioned, we announced we would have a dialogue on artificial intelligence, the risks and safety concerns because it important we talk about it. you asked beijing to stop providing components to russia in its invasion

of ukraine. what makes you think this time they will listen to you? 70% of the machine tools russia is getting are coming from china, 90% of them are microelectronics. we have been clear this is doing two things, helping russia perpetuate its aggression against ukraine but also presenting a growing threat to europe. was hearing from europeans is their concern about this. for china, if you want is better relations not only with us but with countries in europe, it can't do that while at the same time helping to fuel the biggest threat to european security since the cold war. we have taken action against chinese engaged in this and what made clear today is if china won't act, we will. let's speak to robert daly, director of the wilson center's kissinger institute on china

and the us. thank you for your time. i don't know if you could hear the interview we were just playing with antony blinken but what is your overall sense of what this visit has achieved?— sense of what this visit has achieved? ., ., ,, . ., , ., achieved? you had the secretary of state talking _ achieved? you had the secretary of state talking about _ achieved? you had the secretary of state talking about the _ achieved? you had the secretary of state talking about the areas - achieved? you had the secretary of state talking about the areas in - state talking about the areas in which he sees some possibility to improve communications and ask them to co—operate. but against a background of this trip, both sides say they want to stabilise a relationship while each is taking actions they know are going to raise the threat perceptions of the other. china will be welcoming blatt vladimir putin in may, supplying not only machine tools and semiconductors and russian gas and oil, but also missile engines to russia. they have been very aggressive, threatening an american

treaty ally in the philippines and the us for its part is taking a number of actions drawing closer to japan and taiwan and philippines that increase china's threat perceptions. but neither side has changed its view of the other, has changed its view of the other, has changed its view of the other, has changed its own interests or strategies. changed its own interests or strategies-— changed its own interests or strateuies. ., ., ,. , strategies. how would you describe it and frame — strategies. how would you describe it and frame it _ strategies. how would you describe it and frame it in _ strategies. how would you describe it and frame it in terms _ strategies. how would you describe it and frame it in terms of - strategies. how would you describe it and frame it in terms of historic. it and frame it in terms of historic us relations with china and other nations that it has tensions with? how serious is it in terms of global flashpoints? i how serious is it in terms of global flashpoints?— flashpoints? i think the best framework _ flashpoints? i think the best framework for _ flashpoints? i think the best| framework for understanding flashpoints? i think the best - framework for understanding the massive data and stories about it is to understand that the us and china and a growing number of other nations are already engaged in a new kind of cold war. they will be different from the old one but will be very long and dangerous and

involves the resurrection of mutually assured destruction and nuclear arms race and will involve delicate, long—term balance but each side infect is determined to prevail over the other in a global competition across every index of power by all means short of war. they are very sincere about that which makes this a cold war. and with these trips, both sides are trying to figure out how to manage this cold war competition is such that they do not descend into conflict. i5 that they do not descend into conflict. , ., ., that they do not descend into conflict. , . . conflict. is taiwan the most dangerous _ conflict. is taiwan the most dangerous potential - conflict. is taiwan the most - dangerous potential flashpoint? or is dangerous potentialflashpoint? or is it actually difficult to say because of the existing tensions of the ukrainian middle east? for example? the ukrainian middle east? for examle? ,, ., ., , ,, , the ukrainian middle east? for examle? ,, ., . , ,, , ., example? should china supply legal aid to russia. _ example? should china supply legal aid to russia, that _ example? should china supply legal aid to russia, that becomes - example? should china supply legal

aid to russia, that becomes the - aid to russia, that becomes the first proxy war of this new cold war. china does not want to do that, i don't think china wants the war as it has good relations with ukraine, but it's committed to supporting russia. taiwan is the biggest potential flashpoint with the right combination of deterrence and diplomacy, it is possible to avoid war in the taiwan strait. the likelihood of war, whilst still though, is increasing. both sides are war—gaming with each other increasing capabilities in the region. increasing capabilities in the reuion. ., ., increasing capabilities in the reuion. ., ~' a ground—breaking vaccine for melanoma skin cancer is being trialled in the uk. the jab, which is personalised, uses the same technology as that in some covid vaccines. early studies show that when used with another cancer drug — it almost halved the risk of recurrence or death after three years. melanoma is the most serious form of skin cancer and can spread to other areas of the body. experts say 86% of these cases could be prevented by taking the right precautions. here's our health

correspondent, jim reed. could a jab like this change the way cancer is treated? last month, steve young became the first person in the uk to be given this personalised vaccine, not to prevent the disease, but to try to stop a skin cancer returning. at least by being on a trial, i'm actively doing something that, you know, i'm having a fight, basically, i'm having a fight with whatever it was that gave me a melanoma. last summer, steve had this tumour removed from his scalp. those same cancer cells were flown to the united states and used to make the new experimental treatment. by priming, or preparing, his immune system, the hope is that steve's own body can better find and attack any cancer cells left over after his surgery. the trials being run at this hospital in london and others are based on the same technology

used in some covid jab called mrna, combined with a second treatment. early research suggests it significantly reduced the risk of this specific skin cancer called melanoma returning three years after surgery. researchers hope the same approach could work more widely. the real potential here, of course, is expanding this into other cancers because it's not a technology that just works in one cancer. if it works in melanoma, it could work across a number of different cancers, lung cancer, bowel cancer, kidney cancer etc. so there's a potential here for a really transformative change in how we treat patients with cancer. for patients like steve, a musician from hertfordshire, the hope is this personalised approach will one day sit alongside proven treatments like radiotherapy and chemotherapy. weeks on from his treatment, he is thinking about his future. ifeel like i have this new lease of life and i'm actually really

loving life at the moment, and ijust really hope that what's happening with the trial and the results they get are going to be good news and it's going to go on to do amazing things. the uk arm of this global trial is taking place at this hospital and seven other sites across the country. but this is still very early stage research, with full results not expected before the end of the decade. to get a better understanding of how it feels to experience melanoma and just how significant an effective vaccine could be, i'm joined now byjamie cundy, who has been in and out of hospital for many years with reoccurring melanoma. he's also a sunguard ambassador for the melanoma fund. thank you forjoining us today. tell us about your own experience. what happened to you in recent years chris nickel ——? i

happened to you in recent years chris nickel --?_ happened to you in recent years chris nickel --? i have been very actively coaching _ chris nickel --? i have been very actively coaching golf _ chris nickel --? i have been very actively coaching golf for - chris nickel --? i have been very actively coaching golf for the - chris nickel --? i have been very actively coaching golf for the last| actively coaching golf for the last 35 years and unfortunately, diagnosed with skin cancer about six years ago, which has been recurring, i've had three separate occasions for melanoma which have all been successfully removed through surgery but i certainly think this new ground—breaking child is amazing news —— trial. find ground-breaking child is amazing news -- trial-— news -- trial. and are you still havin: news -- trial. and are you still having treatment? _ news -- trial. and are you still having treatment? i'm - news -- trial. and are you still having treatment? i'm on - news -- trial. and are you still. having treatment? i'm on regular checku-s having treatment? i'm on regular checkuns now _ having treatment? i'm on regular checkups now so _ having treatment? i'm on regular checkups now so i _ having treatment? i'm on regular checkups now so i had _ having treatment? i'm on regular checkups now so i had a - having treatment? i'm on regular i checkups now so i had a melanoma removed at the beginning of this year which was successfully removed. but it's an ongoing process and constantly being checked and the constantly being checked and the constant worry of it recurring over

time. i think the surgery is quite invasive so anything non—surgery would be an amazing result for me. when he first found out he had it, what was that moment like? complete shock, six what was that moment like? complete shock. six years _ what was that moment like? complete shock, six years ago. _ what was that moment like? complete shock, six years ago. i _ what was that moment like? complete shock, six years ago. i had _ what was that moment like? complete shock, six years ago. i had to - what was that moment like? complete shock, six years ago. i had to go - shock, six years ago. i had to go home and google what skin cancer melanoma was. i had no idea, some potential risks of being outside and working outside and of the son, and it's been a learning process over the last six years and part of my role as a golf professional, we are now educating other professionals and golfers in the safeguarding of themselves when out on the course. we wish you the very best of your treatment and health going forward. thank you. around the world and across the uk. this is bbc news.

one of the chief executives of the post office for years is giving a second day of evidence. let's

listen. ~ ., ., , second day of evidence. let's listen. ~ . ., second day of evidence. let's listen. . ., ., second day of evidence. let's listen. ~ . ., listen. what was said about you was re listen. what was said about you was pretty serious. _ listen. what was said about you was pretty serious. it — listen. what was said about you was pretty serious, it condemns - listen. what was said about you was pretty serious, it condemns you - listen. what was said about you was pretty serious, it condemns you out| pretty serious, it condemns you out of hand _ pretty serious, it condemns you out of hand as — pretty serious, it condemns you out of hand as being someone who simply cannot— of hand as being someone who simply cannot trust _ of hand as being someone who simply cannot trust and has evaluated your evidence _ cannot trust and has evaluated your evidence ever quite sometime in the witness _ evidence ever quite sometime in the witness box. it's a serious thing to hear— witness box. it's a serious thing to hear about— witness box. it's a serious thing to hear about yourself. and the post office _ hear about yourself. and the post office obviously was our of what was being _ office obviously was our of what was being said _ office obviously was our of what was being said about you. what did the post office say by way of investigation into this? they must have _ investigation into this? they must have looked into this. no. and sa in: have looked into this. and saying that have looked into this. firm and saying that high courtjudge said some _ saying that high courtjudge said some things about you, surely we should take the series, nothing like that? _ should take the series, nothing like that? ., should take the series, nothing like that? no. did you get your bonus that? no. did you get your bonus that year? _ that? no. did you get your bonus that year? yes. _ that? no. did you get your bonus that year? yes. so _ that? no. did you get your bonus that year? yes. so despite - that? no. did you get your bonus that year? yes. so despite lying l that? no. did you get your bonusl that year? yes. so despite lying to the hiuh that year? yes. so despite lying to the high court. — that year? re; so despite lying to the high court, you got your bonus.

yes _ the high court, you got your bonus. yes. :, , :, , :, , yes. how will people on the helpline trained so that _ yes. how will people on the helpline trained so that they _ yes. how will people on the helpline trained so that they were _ yes. how will people on the helpline trained so that they were so - trained so that they were so consistently pressing the sub—postmaster is for payments? how was that— sub—postmaster is for payments? how was that done to persuade them that von've _ was that done to persuade them that von've got _ was that done to persuade them that you've got to do this? did you have away— you've got to do this? did you have away days, — you've got to do this? did you have away days, training sessions, things like that? _ away days, training sessions, things like that? :, , ., like that? no, they had their trainin: like that? no, they had their training in — like that? no, they had their training in the _ like that? no, they had their training in the role _ like that? no, they had their training in the role and - like that? no, they had their. training in the role and ongoing throughout. mira; training in the role and ongoing throughout-— training in the role and ongoing throu:hout. ~ , ,, ~' , throughout. why did you think is auoin on throughout. why did you think is going on domestically _ throughout. why did you think is going on domestically with - throughout. why did you think is going on domestically with the l going on domestically with the sub—postmaster and mistresses? going on domestically with the sub—postmasterand mistresses? do sub—postmaster and mistresses? do you think— sub—postmasterand mistresses? do you think when they were being told to find _ you think when they were being told to find large sums of money like that they— to find large sums of money like that they rested well?— to find large sums of money like that they rested well? clearly not. and ou that they rested well? clearly not. and you understand _ that they rested well? clearly not. and you understand from - that they rested well? clearly not. and you understand from the - that they rested well? clearly not. - and you understand from the evidence bein- and you understand from the evidence being given _ and you understand from the evidence being given in these proceedings that supposed masters and mistresses would _ that supposed masters and mistresses would try— that supposed masters and mistresses would try to find money to pay, they would _ would try to find money to pay, they would sometimes borrow from family and friends, loan sharks? and

memorably on one occasion from the kid's piggy— memorably on one occasion from the kid's piggy bank. this is what was going _ kid's piggy bank. this is what was going on — kid's piggy bank. this is what was going on. you have not taken responsibility for very much if anything _ responsibility for very much if anything at all in this inquiry. do you want— anything at all in this inquiry. do you want to _ anything at all in this inquiry. do you want to take any responsibility for being _ you want to take any responsibility for being part of the post office's actions _ for being part of the post office's actions in — for being part of the post office's actions in doing so? i for being part of the post office's actions in doing so?— actions in doing so? i explained what my roles _ actions in doing so? i explained what my roles were _ actions in doing so? i explained what my roles were and - actions in doing so? i explained what my roles were and i - actions in doing so? i explained what my roles were and i said l actions in doing so? i explained - what my roles were and i said there were some documents i missed and i wish i hadn't. i would have looked at things differently knowing what i know now. �* , ., ., :, ., ., ,, know now. let's have another look thou~h. know now. let's have another look though- let's _ know now. let's have another look though. let's have _ know now. let's have another look though. let's have a _ know now. let's have another look though. let's have a think - know now. let's have another look though. let's have a think about i though. let's have a think about what _ though. let's have a think about what this— though. let's have a think about what this did within the post office and what _ what this did within the post office and what it did to the post offices investigation. these difficulties with their own system. we can see the helpline was part of the post office's — the helpline was part of the post office's payout principle, the penalty — office's payout principle, the penalty payout principle. you have to pay— penalty payout principle. you have to pay without accepting criticisms of our _ to pay without accepting criticisms of our wonderful system. what do you

think that _ of our wonderful system. what do you think that would have done for the reporting — think that would have done for the reporting of faults in relation to the horizon system? do think it would _ the horizon system? do think it would have been a good or bad idea? sorry. _ would have been a good or bad idea? sorry. i— would have been a good or bad idea? sorry. i don't— would have been a good or bad idea? sorry, i don't understand.— sorry, i don't understand. people are bein: sorry, i don't understand. people are being told — sorry, i don't understand. people are being told to _ sorry, i don't understand. people are being told to pay _ sorry, i don't understand. people are being told to pay up - sorry, i don't understand. people are being told to pay up when - sorry, i don't understand. people. are being told to pay up when they are being told to pay up when they are trying — are being told to pay up when they are trying to say something is wrong with the _ are trying to say something is wrong with the system. does that help identify— with the system. does that help identify faults in the horizon system? _ identify faults in the horizon s stem? :, :, ., , . system? no, i would have expected them to be — system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated _ system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated to _ system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated to the - system? no, i would have expected them to be escalated to the office i them to be escalated to the office in helping find the losses. that was what was going _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it _ in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was - in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was in - in helping find the losses. that was what was going on. it was in some | what was going on. it was in some cases, what was going on. it was in some cases. there _ what was going on. it was in some cases. there is _ what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence _ what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence of- what was going on. it was in some cases, there is evidence of people j cases, there is evidence of people getting help and assistance in branch. what i'm saying is what should have happened in them those cases is that she should have got assistance. cases is that she should have got assistance-— cases is that she should have got assistance. :, :, , :, , assistance. you do listen to things occasionally. _ assistance. you do listen to things occasionally, don't _ assistance. you do listen to things occasionally, don't you? _ assistance. you do listen to things occasionally, don't you? i- assistance. you do listen to things. occasionally, don't you? i explained that over— occasionally, don't you? i explained that over 40% of people using the

hotline _ that over 40% of people using the hotline were told to pay up, don't worry— hotline were told to pay up, don't worry about what you are saying about _ worry about what you are saying about system. we cannot replicate working _ about system. we cannot replicate working in — about system. we cannot replicate working in the post office over this many— working in the post office over this many years— working in the post office over this many years but there is likely to have _ many years but there is likely to have been— many years but there is likely to have been a significant number of people _ have been a significant number of people told to basically pay up, we are not— people told to basically pay up, we are not listening to you complaining about— are not listening to you complaining about the _ are not listening to you complaining about the faults. there would not have _ about the faults. there would not have helped the investigation of issues _ have helped the investigation of issues with the horizon system, do you agree? — issues with the horizon system, do you agree? it means that when passing — you agree? it means that when passing on problems that were being experienced by sub—postmaster is, those _ experienced by sub—postmaster is, those problems weren't getting to fujitsu _ those problems weren't getting to fujitsu |— those problems weren't getting to fu'itsu. :, :, those problems weren't getting to fu'itsu. . ., , fujitsu. i agree and postmasters tellin: us fujitsu. i agree and postmasters telling us they — fujitsu. i agree and postmasters telling us they were _ fujitsu. i agree and postmasters telling us they were having - fujitsu. i agree and postmasters - telling us they were having problems were passing them to fujitsu wouldn't have really helped. in many cases, we weren't being made aware there were problems and they were covering losses in a number of cases which didn't help us either. you covering losses in a number of cases which didn't help us either.— which didn't help us either. you can have our which didn't help us either. you can have your falling _ which didn't help us either. you can have your falling out _ which didn't help us either. you can have your falling out with _ which didn't help us either. you can have your falling out with fujitsu i have your falling out with fujitsu as much —

have your falling out with fujitsu as much as — have your falling out with fujitsu as much as you like. let's think about— as much as you like. let's think about where the government lays. you should _ about where the government lays. you should have _ about where the government lays. you should have been in charge of the helpline _ should have been in charge of the helpline system stopping this misinterpretation of the contract, stopping — misinterpretation of the contract, stopping the fraudulent strut line being _ stopping the fraudulent strut line being taken by the post office they had to _ being taken by the post office they had to pay up? who should have been the title _ had to pay up? who should have been the title of— had to pay up? who should have been the title of the person in charge of that system? the knowledge-based information came _ that system? the knowledge-based information came from _ that system? the knowledge-based information came from the - that system? the knowledge-based information came from the relevant| information came from the relevant product or function owners. mbs and c would have been pulling information from the relevant section not compiled by mbs seed but by other people around the organisation. in terms of that particular question, it should have been through contracts and our legal in terms of whether that information was correct. in terms of whether that information was correct-— was correct. let's ask in a slightly different way- _

was correct. let's ask in a slightly different way. should _ was correct. let's ask in a slightly different way. should it _ was correct. let's ask in a slightly different way. should it have - was correct. let's ask in a slightly| different way. should it have been the chief — different way. should it have been the chief operating officer in charge — the chief operating officer in charge of making sure there was oversight— charge of making sure there was oversight of what the product was, what was _ oversight of what the product was, what was being said within the helpline? should it have been the ceo? _ helpline? should it have been the ceo? who— helpline? should it have been the ceo? who should have it have been managing _ ceo? who should have it have been managing that aspect? it ceo? who should have it have been managing that aspect?— ceo? who should have it have been managing that aspect? it should been whoever was — managing that aspect? it should been whoever was the _ managing that aspect? it should been whoever was the director _ managing that aspect? it should been whoever was the director at _ managing that aspect? it should been whoever was the director at times. i whoever was the director at times. it changed several times. it would have been the cfo at some point, it changed over the years. i don't know who it would have been in 2009. {lister who it would have been in 2009. over the eriod who it would have been in 2009. over the period of— who it would have been in 2009. over the period of many _ who it would have been in 2009. over the period of many years, the post office _ the period of many years, the post office was— the period of many years, the post office was operating the horizon system, — office was operating the horizon system, there came a point where the post office _ system, there came a point where the post office was having to target the closure _ post office was having to target the closure of _ post office was having to target the closure of branch offices. do you agree? _ closure of branch offices. do you auree? , ., agree? there were several programmes- _ agree? there were several programmes. for- agree? there were several programmes. for the - agree? there were several programmes. for the area | agree? there were several- programmes. for the area branch manauers programmes. for the area branch managers at _ programmes. for the area branch managers at one _ programmes. for the area branch managers at one time _

programmes. for the area branch managers at one time you - programmes. for the area branch managers at one time you were l programmes. for the area branch . managers at one time you were one, where _ managers at one time you were one, where their— managers at one time you were one, where their targets in relation to branch— where their targets in relation to branch closures? in other words, it would _ branch closures? in other words, it would have — branch closures? in other words, it would have been helpful if you could achieve _ would have been helpful if you could achieve several closures. not would have been helpful if you could achieve several closures.— achieve several closures. not at a local level. _ achieve several closures. not at a local level, no. _ achieve several closures. not at a local level, no. what _ achieve several closures. not at a local level, no. what is _ achieve several closures. not at a local level, no. what is a - achieve several closures. not at a local level, no. what is a more i local level, no. what is a more senior level? _ local level, no. what is a more senior level? there _ local level, no. what is a more senior level? there were - local level, no. what is a more senior level? there were three programmes — senior level? there were three programmes i _ senior level? there were three programmes i remember. - senior level? there were three| programmes i remember. they senior level? there were three - programmes i remember. they would all target at reducing branches. but that was run as programmes and with compensation. that was run as programmes and with compensation-— that was run as programmes and with com ensation. .,, _, , :, compensation. there was compensation for branches closed _ compensation. there was compensation for branches closed by _ compensation. there was compensation for branches closed by agreement. - compensation. there was compensation for branches closed by agreement. so . for branches closed by agreement. so the conversation might be a year or two's _ the conversation might be a year or two's pay— the conversation might be a year or two's pay or— the conversation might be a year or two's pay or a particular period. if a branch— two's pay or a particular period. if a branch was closed as a result of an audit. — a branch was closed as a result of an audit, some were not being able to pay— an audit, some were not being able to pay a _ an audit, some were not being able to pay a shortfall and therefore targeted — to pay a shortfall and therefore targeted for a civil action or prosecuted, they didn't have to pay the sub—postmaster or mistress, did they? _ the sub—postmaster or mistress, did

they? no _ the sub—postmaster or mistress, did they? no. and ifa the sub—postmaster or mistress, did they? no. and if a branch was closed in a small— they? no. and if a branch was closed in a small local community area and was closed — in a small local community area and was closed because of a soap that sub—postmaster or mistress blamed by the post _ sub—postmaster or mistress blamed by the post office, that's helpful to the post office, that's helpful to the post — the post office, that's helpful to the post office, that's helpful to the post office, isn't it? local people — the post office, isn't it? local people then can't complain it was there _ people then can't complain it was there for— people then can't complain it was there for because it was the sub—postmaster. we there for because it was the sub-postmaster.— there for because it was the sub-postmaster. there for because it was the sub- ostmaster. ~ :, ., :, :, ~' sub-postmaster. we would have looked to re-establish — sub-postmaster. we would have looked to re-establish that _ sub-postmaster. we would have looked to re-establish that provision _ sub-postmaster. we would have looked to re-establish that provision in - to re—establish that provision in the area at that point. we had certain access criteria we had to comply with from government. if the comply with from government. if the branch was closed _ comply with from government. if the branch was closed because _ comply with from government. if the branch was closed because of an audit— branch was closed because of an audit and — branch was closed because of an audit and people can't pay the shortfall— audit and people can't pay the shortfall they are being told they must _ shortfall they are being told they must pay — shortfall they are being told they must pay or prosecuted, the post office _ must pay or prosecuted, the post office can — must pay or prosecuted, the post office can try to recover as it did in many— office can try to recover as it did in many occasions money through the civil courts _ in many occasions money through the civil courts or— in many occasions money through the civil courts or criminal courts. in that— civil courts or criminal courts. in that case, — civil courts or criminal courts. in that case, they get a branch closed without _ that case, they get a branch closed without having to pay compensation and get _ without having to pay compensation and get money back for the shortfall that was— and get money back for the shortfall that was in— and get money back for the shortfall that was in the sub—postmaster's fort~ _ that was in the sub-postmaster's

fort. :, did that was in the sub—postmaster's fort. no. did you get a bonus at a certain level _ fort. firm did you get a bonus at a certain level for achieving your targets— certain level for achieving your targets in— certain level for achieving your targets in relation to branch closures?— targets in relation to branch closures? ~ . , :, closures? when i was part of the chance closures? when i was part of the change programme, _ closures? when i was part of the change programme, i _ closures? when i was part of the change programme, i would - closures? when i was part of the | change programme, i would have closures? when i was part of the - change programme, i would have had but it is part of the programme. other than that, our targets would have been related to maintaining the size of the network or increasing it because that was some of the roles i was in previously. quite the opposite of what you just described. it doesn't sell at the opposite. as part of— it doesn't sell at the opposite. as part of the — it doesn't sell at the opposite. as part of the bone structure, in achieving _ part of the bone structure, in achieving the end result which was closure _ achieving the end result which was closure of— achieving the end result which was closure of branches, there was some link to— closure of branches, there was some link to bonus, would do you agree? only as _ link to bonus, would do you agree? only as part— link to bonus, would do you agree? only as part of a programme. my other roles was to maintain the size and if we had a closure, then to re—establish a service in that area. you say in paragraph 30 of your statement, i will take you through it please —

statement, i will take you through it please. paragraph 30, page 14 please — it please. paragraph 30, page 14 please if— it please. paragraph 30, page 14 please. if you scroll down... prior to this, _ please. if you scroll down... prior to this, you — please. if you scroll down... prior to this, you say, general ramblings of complaints and concerns about the integrity _ of complaints and concerns about the integrity of _ of complaints and concerns about the integrity of the horizon system. i believe _ integrity of the horizon system. i believe that when i took over the responsibility for the contract of the administration team, i became aware _ the administration team, i became aware of— the administration team, i became aware of claims of the horizon system — aware of claims of the horizon system generating the discrepancies in branches. in your statement, on page _ in branches. in your statement, on page six. _ in branches. in your statement, on page six, paragraph nine k, i'd rather— page six, paragraph nine k, i'd rather have this on the screen please, — rather have this on the screen please, read out the relevant parts about _ please, read out the relevant parts about to _ please, read out the relevant parts about to refer to. it says this,

between _ about to refer to. it says this, between 2000152016, your director of support— between 2000152016, your director of support services and managing the contract _ of support services and managing the contract advises administration teams — contract advises administration teams. help us understand what you're _ teams. help us understand what you're about when it was you became aware _ you're about when it was you became aware of _ you're about when it was you became aware of the — you're about when it was you became aware of the rumblings and complaints and concerns about the integrity _ complaints and concerns about the integrity of the horizon system. it doesn't _ integrity of the horizon system. it doesn't seem to be 2015 when you are managing _ doesn't seem to be 2015 when you are managing the contract advises and administrations team. | managing the contract advises and administrations team.— managing the contract advises and administrations team. i managed them in 2011 as well- — administrations team. i managed them in 2011 as well. the _ administrations team. i managed them in 2011 as well. the contracts _ administrations team. i managed them in 2011 as well. the contracts were - in 2011 as well. the contracts were managed at different times so i took on responsibility for those in 2011 and then... will have to refer to my statement. and then... will have to refer to my statement-— and then... will have to refer to my statement. page five you might find useful. if statement. page five you might find useful- if you _ statement. page five you might find useful. if you are _ statement. page five you might find useful. if you are referring - statement. page five you might find useful. if you are referring to - statement. page five you might find useful. if you are referring to the i useful. if you are referring to the period _ useful. if you are referring to the period of— useful. if you are referring to the period of time in 2010 to 2010 to

12. :, :, , :, , period of time in 2010 to 2010 to 12. :, :, period of time in 2010 to 2010 to 12. that was when i was head of services- _ 12. that was when i was head of services. which _ 12. that was when i was head of services. which year _ 12. that was when i was head of services. which year during - 12. that was when i was head of services. which year during the | services. which year during the different roles _ services. which year during the different roles you _ services. which year during the different roles you had - services. which year during the different roles you had within l different roles you had within the post office that you set out within your statement are you saying you were — your statement are you saying you were aware _ your statement are you saying you were aware of rumblings? one your statement are you saying you were aware of rumblings? one was in 2011 when i were aware of rumblings? one was in 2011 when | took — were aware of rumblings? one was in 2011 when i took on _ were aware of rumblings? one was in 2011 when i took on the _ were aware of rumblings? one was in 2011 when i took on the contract - 2011 when i took on the contract advises team as part of my role ben. thus when i started to get involved in these cases and that's when i was our... private to that, as aware of some ramblings and got involved in 2011. iii some ramblings and got involved in 2011. if i some ramblings and got involved in 2011. :. some ramblings and got involved in 2011. u. . :, , , 2011. ifi can inter'ect, and unless my memory — 2011. ifi can inter'ect, and unless my memory is _ 2011. ifi can interject, and unless my memory is failing _ 2011. ifi can interject, and unless my memory is failing me, - 2011. ifi can interject, and unless my memory is failing me, i - 2011. ifi can interject, and unless my memory is failing me, i think| 2011. ifi can interject, and unless. my memory is failing me, i think you showed _ my memory is failing me, i think you showed your— my memory is failing me, i think you showed your document _ my memory is failing me, i think you showed your document yesterday - my memory is failing me, i think you i showed your document yesterday which put you _ showed your document yesterday which put you a _ showed your document yesterday which put you a notice — showed your document yesterday which put you a notice in— showed your document yesterday which put you a notice in 2004. _ showed your document yesterday which put you a notice in 2004. you - put you a notice in 2004. you accepted _ put you a notice in 2004. you accepted i_ put you a notice in 2004. you accepted i think— put you a notice in 2004. you accepted i think that - put you a notice in 2004. you accepted i think that that - put you a notice in 2004. you accepted i think that that was| put you a notice in 2004. you . accepted i think that that was at

least _ accepted i think that that was at least a — accepted i think that that was at least a rumbling. _ accepted i think that that was at least a rumbling. that— accepted i think that that was at least a rumbling.— least a rumbling. that was the rovision least a rumbling. that was the provision of — least a rumbling. that was the provision of horizon _ least a rumbling. that was the provision of horizon logs - least a rumbling. that was the provision of horizon logs to . least a rumbling. that was the | provision of horizon logs to the postmaster at the time. so provision of horizon logs to the postmaster at the time.- provision of horizon logs to the postmaster at the time. so by the time ou postmaster at the time. so by the time you get _ postmaster at the time. so by the time you get to — postmaster at the time. so by the time you get to 2010, _ postmaster at the time. so by the time you get to 2010, you - postmaster at the time. so by the time you get to 2010, you have . time you get to 2010, you have background ramblings and build above what's _ background ramblings and build above what's going on, the incredibly brave — what's going on, the incredibly brave computer weekly publicising problems in compliance with the system, — problems in compliance with the system, mps talking about it, sending — system, mps talking about it, sending in letters to the managing director— sending in letters to the managing director and ceos of the country. many— director and ceos of the country. many ramblings related to the integral— many ramblings related to the integral part of the system is called — integral part of the system is called horizon. this is a lot. do not called horizon. this is a lot. not agree? called horizon. this is a lot. drr not agree? at around that time when i stepped into the role, yes. this has not i stepped into the role, yes. this has got to _ i stepped into the role, yes. this has got to be _ i stepped into the role, yes. this has got to be very _ i stepped into the role, yes. this has got to be very worrying amongst people _ has got to be very worrying amongst people working at the post office. this horizon that we will depend upon, _ this horizon that we will depend upon, everybody seems to be saying there's— upon, everybody seems to be saying there's a _ upon, everybody seems to be saying there's a problem with it. do you not agree? — there's a problem with it. do you not agree? there rumblings must be pretty— not agree? there rumblings must be pretty worrying for people at the post office.

pretty worrying for people at the post office-— post office. what i'm saying is it was my recollection, _ post office. what i'm saying is it was my recollection, and - post office. what i'm saying is it was my recollection, and only . post office. what i'm saying is it. was my recollection, and only when post office. what i'm saying is it - was my recollection, and only when i stepped into taking on the responsibility for the team that i started to be exposed to what you just described, when i started to be exposed to that. leading on from that, that's why i wanted to get involved in the initial investigations into the cases and scheme. what we haven't seen at that time or anytime _ what we haven't seen at that time or anytime is _ what we haven't seen at that time or anytime is any what we haven't seen at that time or anytime is any documents what we haven't seen at that time or anytime is any documents which what we haven't seen at that time or anytime is any documents which say something _ anytime is any documents which say something along the lines of, gosh, maybe _ something along the lines of, gosh, maybe there's a problem with the horizon _ maybe there's a problem with the horizon system. imagine the harm we are doing. _ horizon system. imagine the harm we are doing. to— horizon system. imagine the harm we are doing, to families, the mental health— are doing, to families, the mental health of— are doing, to families, the mental health of our sub—postmasters, the people _ health of our sub—postmasters, the people working those branches. we don't _ people working those branches. we don't anything like that in relation to these _ don't anything like that in relation to these rumblings you are talking about, _ to these rumblings you are talking about, going on at that time. is that because the culture of the post

office _ that because the culture of the post office was _ that because the culture of the post office was all about the