after their biggest donor was allegedly caught making racist remarks about the mp diane abbott... will you give the money back, prime minister? i ..which downing street took what felt like an age to admit. is the prime minister proud to be bankrolled by someone using racist and misogynist language? mr speaker, the alleged comments were wrong, they were racist. the mp herself was denied the chance to speak out in the commons. her anger plain later. this is not about me. this is about the level of racism there is still in britain. mr lee anderson... while the conservative booted out over comments about london's muslim mayor defected to reform. and like millions of people up and down the country, all i want is my country back. so, a big question this morning — when it comes to race,

does politics have a problem? after that torrid week, conservative cabinet minister mark harper, the transport secretary, is here. labour's attack dog, warming up for the election, jonathan ashworth joins us too. and privilege was no protection from pain. charles spencer, brother of princess diana, opens up about the abuse he suffered as a child at the hands of his headmaster. he'd constructed his dream world of having 75 little boys at his beck and call for sadistic thrashings and sexual thrills. morning, morning, to you, and to my team at the desk —

labour mp harriet harman, businessman, and dragon, theo paphitis, and samuel kasumu, who worked in number 10 for borisjohnson. welcome to you all. let's have a look at what's making the news. are there plots to replace the beleaguered prime minister with the sword—wielding penny mordaunt? the observer and the telegraph think so. and that paper also picks up the government's new plans for traffic we'll talk about a bit later. the sunday times leads on grant shapps aborting a trip to ukraine last week because of the threat of a russian missile strike. and for the sunday mirror and the sun on sunday, the big story is strictly. the sunday mirror bemoans amanda abbington pulling out last time round. the sun on sunday claims some of those who donned the sequins might complain to the bbc. and look at this — yet another fiery volcanic eruption in iceland —

the fourth since december. residents of the town of grindavik have been asked to leave the area. the bbc will have more of those pictures through the day. let's start with the big issue in westminster this week, the question of politics and race. harriet harman, do you think politics still has a problem with race after your long tenure in westminster? i has a problem with race after your long tenure in westminster? i think it is important _ long tenure in westminster? i think it is important on _ long tenure in westminster? i think it is important on all— long tenure in westminster? i think it is important on all politicians - it is important on all politicians not to be divisive around the issue of race and there should really be a consensus about that. it makes me particularly apprehensive in the run—up to an election to see anybody ever try and take advantage of it. but it's been a really terrible episode, what has happened to diane abbott, and it has also thrown a big spotlight on the problem of big money in politics. we spotlight on the problem of big money in politics.— money in politics. we will talk about that _ money in politics. we will talk about that later. _ money in politics. we will talk about that later. samuel, - money in politics. we will talk about that later. samuel, you| money in politics. we will talk . about that later. samuel, you are working in politics advising boris johnson. do you think that now in 2024 there is a problem with race in our politics? ii

2024 there is a problem with race in our politics?— our politics? if you look at the facts, our politics? if you look at the facts. under — our politics? if you look at the facts, under the _ our politics? if you look at the facts, under the labour - our politics? if you look at the facts, under the labour partyl our politics? if you look at the i facts, under the labour party we our politics? if you look at the - facts, under the labour party we had the ford _ facts, under the labour party we had the ford review— facts, under the labour party we had the ford review which _ facts, under the labour party we had the ford review which was _ facts, under the labour party we had the ford review which was pretty - the ford review which was pretty damning — the ford review which was pretty damning about _ the ford review which was pretty damning about racism _ the ford review which was pretty damning about racism and - the ford review which was pretty damning about racism and racist| damning about racism and racist incidents— damning about racism and racist incidents in— damning about racism and racist incidents in labour. _ damning about racism and racist incidents in labour. we - damning about racism and racist incidents in labour. we have - damning about racism and racist| incidents in labour. we have had damning about racism and racist - incidents in labour. we have had the istamoohohia — incidents in labour. we have had the islamophobia review— incidents in labour. we have had the islamophobia review into _ incidents in labour. we have had the islamophobia review into the - islamophobia review into the conservative _ islamophobia review into the conservative party, - islamophobia review into the conservative party, so- islamophobia review into the conservative party, so the i islamophobia review into the i conservative party, so the facts present — conservative party, so the facts present a — conservative party, so the facts present a damning _ conservative party, so the facts present a damning picture - conservative party, so the facts present a damning picture so i conservative party, so the facts - present a damning picture so clearly there _ present a damning picture so clearly there is_ present a damning picture so clearly there is a _ present a damning picture so clearly there is a challenge _ present a damning picture so clearly there is a challenge that _ present a damning picture so clearly there is a challenge that needs - present a damning picture so clearly there is a challenge that needs to i there is a challenge that needs to be dealt — there is a challenge that needs to be dealt with _ there is a challenge that needs to be dealt with. it’s _ there is a challenge that needs to be dealt with.— be dealt with. it's interesting because some _ be dealt with. it's interesting because some people - be dealt with. it's interesting because some people might| be dealt with. it's interesting i because some people might say be dealt with. it's interesting - because some people might say there is a real irony because at the moment we had vaughan gething is elected first black first minister of wales. the prime minister is a proud british asian hindu. do you think in yourtime proud british asian hindu. do you think in your time watching politics it has got worse or are we just seeing more of something that was there already? i seeing more of something that was there already?— there already? i think as a nation we are evolving _ there already? i think as a nation we are evolving and _ there already? i think as a nation we are evolving and the - there already? i think as a nation we are evolving and the fact - there already? i think as a nation we are evolving and the fact we l there already? i think as a nation - we are evolving and the fact we have leaders _ we are evolving and the fact we have leaders from — we are evolving and the fact we have leaders from minority— we are evolving and the fact we have leaders from minority ethnic- leaders from minority ethnic backgrounds _ leaders from minority ethnic backgrounds is— leaders from minority ethnic backgrounds is both - leaders from minority ethnic- backgrounds is both remarkable and unremarkable, — backgrounds is both remarkable and unremarkable, which— backgrounds is both remarkable and unremarkable, which is— backgrounds is both remarkable and unremarkable, which is a _ backgrounds is both remarkable and unremarkable, which is a good - backgrounds is both remarkable andl unremarkable, which is a good thing. but our— unremarkable, which is a good thing. but our politicians _ unremarkable, which is a good thing. but our politicians are _ unremarkable, which is a good thing. but our politicians are struggling - but our politicians are struggling to deal— but our politicians are struggling to deal with _ but our politicians are struggling to deal with this _ but our politicians are struggling to deal with this evolution - but our politicians are struggling to deal with this evolution of - but our politicians are struggling to deal with this evolution of our nation _ to deal with this evolution of our nation they— to deal with this evolution of our nation. they are _ to deal with this evolution of our nation. they are struggling - to deal with this evolution of our nation. they are struggling to i nation. they are struggling to articulate _ nation. they are struggling to articulate a _ nation. they are struggling to articulate a moral— nation. they are struggling to articulate a moral high - nation. they are struggling to| articulate a moral high ground nation. they are struggling to - articulate a moral high ground when there _ articulate a moral high ground when there are _ articulate a moral high ground when there are challenges. _ articulate a moral high ground when there are challenges. so— articulate a moral high ground when there are challenges. so the - there are challenges. so the challenge _ there are challenges. so the challenge is— there are challenges. so the challenge is there _ there are challenges. so the challenge is there and - there are challenges. so the challenge is there and we i there are challenges. so thel challenge is there and we are there are challenges. so the i

challenge is there and we are not dealing _ challenge is there and we are not dealing with _ challenge is there and we are not dealing with it _ challenge is there and we are not dealing with it as _ challenge is there and we are not dealing with it as much _ challenge is there and we are not dealing with it as much as - challenge is there and we are not dealing with it as much as we i dealing with it as much as we should — dealing with it as much as we should. ~ . ,. dealing with it as much as we should. ~ . , .. ~' dealing with it as much as we should. ~ . ~ . . ., should. what you think watching on from the world _ should. what you think watching on from the world of— should. what you think watching on from the world of business, - should. what you think watching on from the world of business, tbeo? | from the world of business, tbeo? you squirm. i very rarely agree with what _ you squirm. i very rarely agree with what diane — you squirm. i very rarely agree with what diane abbott says, but for frank— what diane abbott says, but for frank hester to say what he said, i have _ frank hester to say what he said, i have heard — frank hester to say what he said, i have heard it described as racist, but i _ have heard it described as racist, but i actually think it is criminal. it's appalling. if he is a tory party— it's appalling. if he is a tory party memberthen he it's appalling. if he is a tory party member then he should be thrown _ party member then he should be thrown out of the party. i haven't heard _ thrown out of the party. i haven't heard it— thrown out of the party. i haven't heard it he — thrown out of the party. i haven't heard if he has been or not. and it really. _ heard if he has been or not. and it really. we — heard if he has been or not. and it really, we talk about politicians at the too _ really, we talk about politicians at the top end. absolutely right, a fish rots — the top end. absolutely right, a fish rots from the top. if we have this divisive — fish rots from the top. if we have this divisive politics we are living through— this divisive politics we are living through at— this divisive politics we are living through at the moment, unfortunately that's the _ through at the moment, unfortunately that's the outcome.— that's the outcome. plenty to get stuck into with _ that's the outcome. plenty to get stuck into with mark _ that's the outcome. plenty to get stuck into with mark harper. - that's the outcome. plenty to get i stuck into with mark harper. thank you to the three of you for now. you'd probably never heard of frank hester before this week. but it's been hard to avoid his name

over the past few days after he was alleged to have said that veteran mp diane abbott made him "want to hate all black women" and should "be shot". he later apologised for what he called "rude" comments. plenty of others, including plenty of you, saw the remarks straightaway as racist, but it took an age in political terms for rishi sunak to agree. at a rally on friday night in hackney, diane abbott told the crowd to stand firm against racism. this was in her london constituency, where she was speaking. and this is about the way that black women are disrespected... crowd murmurs agreement. ..decade on decade. the conservative cabinet minister and transport secretary, mark harper, is here. thank you forjoining us this morning. did you straightaway think these alleged comments were racist? yes, look, the prime minister made it very clear at prime minister's

questions on wednesday that they were racist. it questions on wednesday that they were racist. .. .. ~' questions on wednesday that they were racist-— were racist. it took him some time to do that- — were racist. it took him some time to do that. did — were racist. it took him some time to do that. did you _ were racist. it took him some time to do that. did you think _ were racist. it took him some time to do that. did you think straight l to do that. did you think straight they were racist? you to do that. did you think straight they were racist?— to do that. did you think straight they were racist? you said it took an ace in they were racist? you said it took an age in political— they were racist? you said it took an age in political terms - they were racist? you said it took an age in political terms but - they were racist? you said it took an age in political terms but it i an age in political terms but it didn't take long at all, the prime minister said it on wednesday and his spokesperson was clear the day before that they were racist comments and unacceptable. and frank hester apologised for those comments. hester apologised for those comments— hester apologised for those comments. . . �* . . , , comments. that isn't what happened initiall , it comments. that isn't what happened initially. it did _ comments. that isn't what happened initially, it did take _ comments. that isn't what happened initially, it did take some _ comments. that isn't what happened initially, it did take some time - comments. that isn't what happened initially, it did take some time for. initially, it did take some time for downing street to say these comments were racist. they were rather dancing around the issue. in fact, until your cabinet colleague kemi badenoch said online that these were clearly racist, that was not what downing street was saying on the record. �* . , .,, . ., record. i'm sure people wanted to make sure — record. i'm sure people wanted to make sure and _ record. i'm sure people wanted to make sure and check _ record. i'm sure people wanted to make sure and check the - record. i'm sure people wanted to make sure and check the facts. i record. i'm sure people wanted to | make sure and check the facts. the newspaper reports things and you want to check the facts are correct. then i think the prime minister was very clear about it, that they were racist comments, they were unacceptable and wrong, and he made that very clear, his spokesman made it very clear, and he made it very clear in the house of commons on

wednesday. i heard him and he was robust and clear. you wednesday. i heard him and he was robust and clear.— robust and clear. you know some of our robust and clear. you know some of your colleagues _ robust and clear. you know some of your colleagues thought _ robust and clear. you know some of your colleagues thought it _ robust and clear. you know some of your colleagues thought it took - robust and clear. you know some of your colleagues thought it took tool your colleagues thought it took too long and there was too much of a delay. things happen very fast in politics will stop we had a very strong response from many viewers this week, it was clear straightaway. to give you some comments, clyde phillips says the alleged statement was to most of the population obviously racist and misogynistic. another viewer said they were horrible, insensitive and racist. another viewer, chris battle, said they were clearly racist and sexist. why did downing street not straightaway agree with our viewers upon the description of the comments? we our viewers upon the description of the comments?— the comments? we did agree with those. the comments? we did agree with those- the — the comments? we did agree with those. the prime _ the comments? we did agree with those. the prime minister- the comments? we did agree with those. the prime minister was i the comments? we did agree with i those. the prime minister was clear about it. you do want to check the facts. just because a newspaper reports something, you want to check your facts. reports something, you want to check yourfacts. we reports something, you want to check your facts. we were clear about it, they were racist comments. frank hester has apologised for the

comments. and we said we should accept his apology, which we have done. ~ . . . accept his apology, which we have doner ., , ., . accept his apology, which we have done. . , . . , done. what is that you check because downin: done. what is that you check because downing street _ done. what is that you check because downing street was _ done. what is that you check because downing street was very _ done. what is that you check because downing street was very happy - done. what is that you check because downing street was very happy to i done. what is that you check because downing street was very happy to say these were rude, unacceptable and unpleasant comments. downing street was not denying at that point that it had taken place. it was their description of what those words meant. and forgive me for labouring this point but this is absolutely vital. ~ . . , , vital. the prime minister was very clear about _ vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. _ vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. i _ vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. i was _ vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. i was there - vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. i was there in - vital. the prime minister was very clear about it. i was there in the l clear about it. i was there in the house of commons on wednesday, he couldn't have been clearer. having an argument about how many hours it took to say something, i don't really think is the issue here. judgment matters. the really think is the issue here. judgment matters.— really think is the issue here. judgment matters. the issue is that the prime minister _ judgment matters. the issue is that the prime minister was _ judgment matters. the issue is that the prime minister was clear- judgment matters. the issue is that the prime minister was clear those l the prime minister was clear those were racist comments, they were unacceptable and he was absolutely clear about it in terms when he was asked about it in the house of commons on wednesday. i was there and i heard him make that point very robustly. and i heard him make that point very robustl . . , .., and i heard him make that point very robustl . . , .. and i heard him make that point very robustl . . , ., , ., robustly. having sent some of your colleaaues robustly. having sent some of your colleagues out _ robustly. having sent some of your colleagues out to _ robustly. having sent some of your colleagues out to say _ robustly. having sent some of your colleagues out to say they - robustly. having sent some of your colleagues out to say they were i robustly. having sent some of your| colleagues out to say they were not to do with race or gender. but you

made your point, downing street had to take its time. the other issue is money. he is as it stands your biggest owner. he has given £10 million. we know that. i will ask if he has given more. our viewer christopher duncan wants to know why the party is hanging on to cash from someone who rishi sunak has said has made racist comments. the someone who rishi sunak has said has made racist comments.— made racist comments. the donation redated made racist comments. the donation predated his — made racist comments. the donation predated his comments _ made racist comments. the donation predated his comments and - made racist comments. the donation predated his comments and we - predated his comments and we declared that in the usual way which is how people know he made that donation. he has made the comments, he apologised for them and the prime minister has made it very clear that the donation stands. you minister has made it very clear that the donation stands.— minister has made it very clear that the donation stands. you don't think he should give _ the donation stands. you don't think he should give the _ the donation stands. you don't think he should give the money _ the donation stands. you don't think he should give the money back? i i he should give the money back? i don't. he made racist comments, they were unacceptable, the prime minister has made that clear and frank hester has apologised. iie minister has made that clear and frank hester has apologised. he has come and we — frank hester has apologised. he has come and we should _ frank hester has apologised. he has come and we should make _ frank hester has apologised. he has come and we should make that - frank hester has apologised. he has| come and we should make that clear. he acknowledges they were wrong as well. he he acknowledges they were wrong as well. . . he acknowledges they were wrong as well. . , ., he acknowledges they were wrong as well. ., ., . ., , ., well. he has not apologised for them bein: well. he has not apologised for them being racist. — well. he has not apologised for them being racist. he _ well. he has not apologised for them being racist, he apologised _ well. he has not apologised for them being racist, he apologised for- being racist, he apologised for making rude remarks will stop the

specifics of the apology are important. has he or has he not given the conservatives another £5 million? lgale given the conservatives another £5 million? ~ . . . million? we have declared the donation he _ million? we have declared the donation he has _ million? we have declared the donation he has made. - million? we have declared the donation he has made. i- million? we have declared the donation he has made. i am i million? we have declared the. donation he has made. i am not involved in donations to the party. i am transport secretary, that's not what i'm involved with. in the future if there was a future donation that will be declared in the usual way but that is a hypothetical question that will be looked at. there are processes for looking at donations to political parties and declaring them. i'm not involved in those but my understanding is, if there is a future one it'll be looked at in the usual way and declared but that is a hypothetical question. it is usual way and declared but that is a hypothetical question.— hypothetical question. it is not reall a hypothetical question. it is not really a hypothetical— hypothetical question. it is not really a hypothetical question | really a hypothetical question because there has been reporting this week from reputable organisations saying that he has offered another £5 million to the party. i think our viewers might have expected, with respect, mark harper, that you might have found this out before coming on the programme today. because this is a

matter of huge public interest. did you not ask those involved to tell you? you not ask those involved to tell ou? ., ., ., , you not ask those involved to tell ou? ., . ., , . you? the donations he made in the ast have you? the donations he made in the past have been _ you? the donations he made in the past have been accepted _ you? the donations he made in the past have been accepted and - you? the donations he made in the i past have been accepted and properly declared. that's how people know they exist. if frank hester in the future were minded to make a donation to the party that would be looked at in the usual way and declared. but that's a hypothetical question about what might happen in the future. we know what has been declared about the nations that have been made already. those are on their record and that's how people know about them. what happens in the future, it's a hypothetical question that will be looked at in due course. it that will be looked at in due course. . that will be looked at in due course. , ., . , . course. it is not really a hypothetical _ course. it is not really a hypothetical question i course. it is not really a i hypothetical question because course. it is not really a _ hypothetical question because there is a clear suggestion that has been reported by reputable outlets that he has already given another £5 million to the conservative party. some of our viewers might listen to you, not able to tell us a straight answer this morning and think of what the prime minister said when he moved into number ten. have a listen to this. this government will have integrity, professionalism, and accountability at every level.

he promised the highest levels of integrity and accountability. there has been a matter of enormous public interest this week over whether frank hester has given the conservative party a further £5 million. isn't it a contradiction between a promise rishi sunak made to the country about being accountable, about integrity, that you can't tell us what's going on. the donations frank hester made in the past have been properly looked at, they have been accepted and they have been declared in the open and transparent way that is required and you expect. if there are future donations, i don't know whether frank hester will make donations in the future... frank hester will make donations in the future- - -— the future... and you didn't ask an one the future... and you didn't ask anyone in _ the future... and you didn't ask anyone in the — the future... and you didn't ask anyone in the party _ the future... and you didn't ask anyone in the party whether i the future... and you didn't ask anyone in the party whether he | the future... and you didn't ask- anyone in the party whether he has given any more money? i anyone in the party whether he has given any more money?— anyone in the party whether he has given any more money? i don't know if ou'll given any more money? i don't know if you'll give — given any more money? i don't know if you'll give donations _ given any more money? i don't know if you'll give donations in _ given any more money? i don't know if you'll give donations in the - if you'll give donations in the future but if he were to do so we have proper processes to making sure they are acceptable and they will be declared in the usual way. i don't

know what will happen in the future or whether he will be minded to give us more money in the future. but there are proper processes and they will be declared in the usual way, as the prime minister said, so they are very transparent and people can makejudgments. do the conservatives have a problem with race? . , , .. with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said — with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said this _ with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said this week _ with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said this week we _ with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said this week we are - with race? absolutely not. the prime minister said this week we are a - minister said this week we are a party led by the first british asian prime minister with the most ethnically diverse cabinet there has ever been. we are a party welcoming people from across the united kingdom, whatever their background or race. if they share our values and approach to politics then we want everyone to be a member of the conservative party and feel very comfortable within it. but conservative party and feel very comfortable within it.— conservative party and feel very comfortable within it. but some of them are not- _ comfortable within it. but some of them are not. tory _ comfortable within it. but some of them are not. tory peer— comfortable within it. but some of them are not. tory peer baroness| them are not. tory peer baroness sayeeda warsi warned it could be dangerous to take money from this man. former home secretary sajid javid said there was a problem with social cohesion and politicians should do more to address it. he suggested having a department of citizenship to combat the problem. but you say this morning there isn't

a problem. the prime minister is the first british asian prime minister and something samuel said it's very important, the first british asian prime minister and when he became the first british asian prime minister, it wasn't a big deal, and thatis minister, it wasn't a big deal, and that is quite important, actually. it wasn't the most important thing about him being prime minister, it says a lot about our country and i think the conservative party should be proud we have broken a lot of barriers and i think it is a very strong message to people from across the country, whatever their background, that makes you feel comfortable in the conservative party. comfortable in the conservative pa . ,' ~ comfortable in the conservative pa . a ~' .. comfortable in the conservative pa . ,' ~ ., , party. different kind of barriers, traffic barriers, _ party. different kind of barriers, traffic barriers, you _ party. different kind of barriers, traffic barriers, you are - party. different kind of barriers, traffic barriers, you are making l party. different kind of barriers, i traffic barriers, you are making an announcement today, what you are calling a crackdown on anti—road driver schemes, you are referring to low traffic neighbourhoods, go slow

schemes, what do you mean by cracking down on this? it is about the schemes _ cracking down on this? it is about the schemes where _ cracking down on this? it is about the schemes where councils - cracking down on this? it is about the schemes where councils have| cracking down on this? it is about i the schemes where councils have not taken their communities with them. if a council puts in place a scheme and it is about trying to properly balance drivers and other road users, and take consult people properly and in the proper sense of that word and take the local community with them and the scheme is popular, we don't have a problem with that. but we know there are specific examples and we have seen them in the country, one in newcastle, when recently in stratum wells in london, they have had to be withdrawn. the wells in london, they have had to be withdrawn. .., . . . withdrawn. the council have decided to net rid withdrawn. the council have decided to get rid of— withdrawn. the council have decided to get rid of them. _ withdrawn. the council have decided to get rid of them. the _ withdrawn. the council have decided to get rid of them. the council - withdrawn. the council have decided to get rid of them. the council did i to get rid of them. the council did not take people — to get rid of them. the council did not take people with _ to get rid of them. the council did not take people with it, _ to get rid of them. the council did not take people with it, did - to get rid of them. the council did not take people with it, did not i not take people with it, did not have local consent, pitted driver's against other road users, that is what we are trying to cut down on. we are publishing statutory guidance to site councils need to take communities with you. can to site councils need to take communities with you. to site councils need to take communities with ou. . , ., . .

communities with you. can you name a council that did _ communities with you. can you name a council that did not _ communities with you. can you name a council that did not consult _ communities with you. can you name a council that did not consult with - council that did not consult with the public? councils say, we already consult, part of what we do communicate the schemes, i have read your 79 page report, in many places, quite popular, the evidence is definitely mixed, can you tell us a council that did not consult? clinic; council that did not consult? only 1896 of people _ council that did not consult? only 1896 of people felt _ council that did not consult? only 18% of people felt they had been properly listen to, there were examples in the report for example where disabled people and groups representing disabled people did not feel they had been listening to and it made it difficult for them to access... in it made it difficult for them to access- - -_ it made it difficult for them to access... . . . ., ., access... in all areas, a quote from our access... in all areas, a quote from your report. _ access... in all areas, a quote from your report. in _ access. .. in all areas, a quote from your report, in all— access... in all areas, a quote from your report, in all areas _ access... in all areas, a quote from your report, in all areas a - access... in all areas, a quote from your report, in all areas a higher. your report, in all areas a higher proportion of residents were supportive than opposed. yes. proportion of residents were supportive than opposed. yes, but if ou have a supportive than opposed. yes, but if you have a very _ supportive than opposed. yes, but if you have a very significant _ you have a very significant proportion of people who do not feel supportive of the schemes, and for example there were quotes from emergency services suggesting lives could be put at risk because some schemes have not been properly thought through, it is a problem. it is about sensible government, about

making sure communities are properly listen to. i have listened to people from communities where some of the schemes have been put in place where councils have not listened. where a local council is properly listening to the local community, does consultation properly, we have set out examples in the statutory guidance about how you do that, no one has a problem. but i think it should be possible for people who walk, cycle, use public transport and drivers to sensibly coexist. it is about those schemes where it hasn't worked.— is about those schemes where it hasn't worked. what you are saying sounds very — hasn't worked. what you are saying sounds very reasonable, _ hasn't worked. what you are saying sounds very reasonable, try - hasn't worked. what you are saying sounds very reasonable, try to - hasn't worked. what you are saying sounds very reasonable, try to help councils find ways where everyone can be happy, doesn't that rather reveal you are talking about a crackdown on anti—car schemes, you are doing it for political reasons? there are places where councils have not taken people, and the pandemic, for example, no consultation, things were driven through for ideological reasons why people haven't taken

them through and there are schemes where councils seem to be behaving like that, whether it is deliberate or otherwise. what we are proposing is very sensible. if councils listen to our guidance, that will be fine. if they don't, we will have to think about other measures like funding. sensible proposals we welcome across the country. sensible proposals we welcome across the count . ~ . , ., ~ sensible proposals we welcome across the count . ~ . , . ~ the country. mark harper, thank you for “oininu the country. mark harper, thank you forjoining us— the country. mark harper, thank you forjoining us in _ the country. mark harper, thank you forjoining us in the _ the country. mark harper, thank you forjoining us in the studio. - what do you think? have a low traffic signs been driving you mad? —— low traffic zones. let us know — email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or you can use the hashtag #bbclaurak on x and also now on instagram. we might share some of your thoughts in our newsletter later in the week, which you can sign up to at bbc.co.uk/lauraknewsletter. samuel, what did you think of how mark harper answered our questions and our viewers' questions about race in the conservative party? it is very frustrating for me when ministers say that we have the most

diverse cabinet in history and that is somehow a get out ofjail free card. when i was first involved in politics, it was folks like... white parliamentarians who saw a young guy from a working—class background and thought i had potential and when i was in downing street, george floyd was in downing street, george floyd was murdered, it was not black or brown members of parliament who reached out and said, how can we bring communities together? it was borisjohnson, most interested in that. now of course of our most divisive politicians are people like suella braverman. to paraphrase martin luther king, it is not the colour of your skin that matters when it comes to tackling racism and discrimination. it has to be the content of your character and your willingness to lead. that content of your character and your willingness to lead.— willingness to lead. that is not what we're _ willingness to lead. that is not what we're seeing _ willingness to lead. that is not what we're seeing today. - willingness to lead. that is not what we're seeing today. you | willingness to lead. that is not i what we're seeing today. you sound both frustrated and really disappointed the party who took un and encouraged you as a young black man is now doing this. —— took you

in. i man is now doing this. -- took you in. ~' ., . ., man is now doing this. -- took you in. ~' ., u, ., man is now doing this. -- took you in. ~' ., ., , man is now doing this. -- took you in. i know we can do better. i know there are peeple — in. i know we can do better. i know there are people who _ in. i know we can do better. i know there are people who had - in. i know we can do better. i know there are people who had the - in. i know we can do better. i know there are people who had the right| there are people who had the right motives, came to public life because they want to try to bring this country together and bring us forward, but it is not what we are seeing. at the moment we are seeing politicians fighting their lines. no way that any minister would have been told to come out and not condemn the remarks as racist and misogynist if i was in downing street. the problem is notjust the prime minister but also his advisers, my former colleagues, i do advisers, my former colleagues, ido not advisers, my former colleagues, i do not know what they are playing at. we have to do better. what not know what they are playing at. we have to do better.— not know what they are playing at. we have to do better. what did you make of how _ we have to do better. what did you make of how mark _ we have to do better. what did you make of how mark harper- we have to do better. what did you | make of how mark harper answered that question and also interesting springs are centred the issue of money and politics? in the past you have donated money to the conservatives and lib dems, nothing like the huge sums handed over by frank hester. just like the huge sums handed over by frank hester.— frank hester. just a few leaflets. does this concern _

frank hester. just a few leaflets. does this concern you? - frank hester. just a few leaflets. does this concern you? it - frank hester. just a few leaflets. does this concern you? it does . does this concern you? it does concern me- — does this concern you? it does concern me. lack— does this concern you? it does concern me. lack of— does this concern you? it does - concern me. lack of transparency, we are getting _ concern me. lack of transparency, we are getting through government, even more concerning. divisive way the politics— more concerning. divisive way the politics are — more concerning. divisive way the politics are evolving. samuel quite rightly _ politics are evolving. samuel quite rightly points out, correct what mark_ rightly points out, correct what mark harper said, one of the most diverse _ mark harper said, one of the most diverse cabinets in the history of our politics, but they are not acting — our politics, but they are not acting like it. i thinkjust because you are _ acting like it. i thinkjust because you are black or asian or whatever, it does_ you are black or asian or whatever, it does not— you are black or asian or whatever, it does not mean your thought patterns — it does not mean your thought patterns are in tune with the rest of society — patterns are in tune with the rest of society. and there is no question in my— of society. and there is no question in my mind — of society. and there is no question in my mind that those words were not 'ust in my mind that those words were not just racistm _ in my mind that those words were not just racist... just totally unacceptable. but why did he even feel comfortable in modern day society— feel comfortable in modern day society to be able to say that you would _ society to be able to say that you would shoot somebody and the rest... hating _ would shoot somebody and the rest... hating att— would shoot somebody and the rest... hating all black women. what gave

him that— hating all black women. what gave him that power to be able to say that? _ him that power to be able to say that? unless the circles in which he is niixing, _ that? unless the circles in which he is mixing, those conversations dearly — is mixing, those conversations clearly take place.— is mixing, those conversations clearly take place. interesting you talk about the _ clearly take place. interesting you talk about the rest _ clearly take place. interesting you talk about the rest of _ clearly take place. interesting you talk about the rest of the - clearly take place. interesting you talk about the rest of the country, do you feel that someone in business politics is out of step with the rest of the country?— politics is out of step with the rest of the country? sadly out of ste for rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite — rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite a _ rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite a while _ rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite a while now - rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite a while now and l rest of the country? sadly out of step for quite a while now and i | step for quite a while now and i have _ step for quite a while now and i have treen— step for quite a while now and i have been preaching that. i have gone _ have been preaching that. i have gone on — have been preaching that. i have gone on record to say we have found politicians _ gone on record to say we have found politicians at the moment are looking — politicians at the moment are looking after number one, themselves, first. the party, second _ themselves, first. the party, second. the full electorate, bad third _ second. the full electorate, bad third the — second. the full electorate, bad third. the divisive way they have tried _ third. the divisive way they have tried to — third. the divisive way they have tried to play the political game, it will not _ tried to play the political game, it will notjust give tried to play the political game, it will not just give them tried to play the political game, it will notjust give them their end result, — will notjust give them their end result, but be careful what you wish for. result, but be careful what you wish for~ the _ result, but be careful what you wish for~ the end — result, but be careful what you wish for. the end result they might get is not _ for. the end result they might get is not the — for. the end result they might get is not the one that will suit any of us. . i. _, . is not the one that will suit any of us. harriet, your colleague diane abbott who _ us. harriet, your colleague diane abbott who like _ us. harriet, your colleague diane abbott who like he _ us. harriet, your colleague diane abbott who like he was _ us. harriet, your colleague diane abbott who like he was an - us. harriet, your colleague diane i abbott who like he was an absolute trailblazer in labour politics, she has been under terrible abuse from

people for a long time, she has been clear this week also in her view labour also has a problem with racism. ~ . ., labour also has a problem with racism. ~ . . a, ~ labour also has a problem with racism. . . ,, . , racism. what i heard mark harper sa , no, racism. what i heard mark harper say. no. we _ racism. what i heard mark harper say. no. we have _ racism. what i heard mark harper say, no, we have not— racism. what i heard mark harper say, no, we have not got - racism. what i heard mark harper say, no, we have not got a - racism. what i heard mark harper. say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates— say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates you — say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates you have. _ say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates you have. you _ say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates you have. you have - say, no, we have not got a problem, it indicates you have. you have to i it indicates you have. you have to recognise — it indicates you have. you have to recognise even— it indicates you have. you have to recognise even though _ it indicates you have. you have to recognise even though there - it indicates you have. you have to recognise even though there hasl it indicates you have. you have to - recognise even though there has been an advance _ recognise even though there has been an advance of— recognise even though there has been an advance of black _ recognise even though there has been an advance of black people _ recognise even though there has been an advance of black people and - recognise even though there has beenl an advance of black people and women into politics. _ an advance of black people and women into politics, there _ an advance of black people and women into politics, there is— an advance of black people and women into politics, there is still— an advance of black people and women into politics, there is still and - an advance of black people and women into politics, there is still and in- into politics, there is still and in fact an — into politics, there is still and in fact an even _ into politics, there is still and in fact an even greater— into politics, there is still and in fact an even greater backlash i into politics, there is still and in. fact an even greater backlash and that is— fact an even greater backlash and that is what— fact an even greater backlash and that is what people _ fact an even greater backlash and that is what people are _ fact an even greater backlash and that is what people are facing. iti that is what people are facing. it was so _ that is what people are facing. it was so obvious _ that is what people are facing. it was so obvious that _ that is what people are facing. it was so obvious that comment i that is what people are facing. it i was so obvious that comment that that is what people are facing. it - was so obvious that comment that was made _ was so obvious that comment that was made was _ was so obvious that comment that was made was racist — was so obvious that comment that was made was racist and _ was so obvious that comment that was made was racist and misogynist - was so obvious that comment that was made was racist and misogynist and i made was racist and misogynist and as theo _ made was racist and misogynist and as theo says— made was racist and misogynist and as theo says downright _ made was racist and misogynist and as theo says downright dangerous l made was racist and misogynist and | as theo says downright dangerous in the context— as theo says downright dangerous in the context of— as theo says downright dangerous in the context of having _ as theo says downright dangerous in the context of having two _ as theo says downright dangerous in the context of having two members. as theo says downright dangerous in. the context of having two members of parliament _ the context of having two members of parliament killed. _ the context of having two members of parliament killed. the _ the context of having two members of parliament killed. the only— parliament killed. the only explanation _ parliament killed. the only explanation is _ parliament killed. the only explanation is is _ parliament killed. the only explanation is is because . parliament killed. the only| explanation is is because of parliament killed. the only- explanation is is because of the money. — explanation is is because of the money, they— explanation is is because of the money, they hesitated - explanation is is because of the money, they hesitated to - explanation is is because of the money, they hesitated to say . explanation is is because of the i money, they hesitated to say what explanation is is because of the - money, they hesitated to say what it was because — money, they hesitated to say what it was because they _ money, they hesitated to say what it was because they have _ money, they hesitated to say what it was because they have accepted - money, they hesitated to say what iti was because they have accepted such a huge _ was because they have accepted such a huge amount— was because they have accepted such a huge amount for— was because they have accepted such a huge amount for their— was because they have accepted such a huge amount for their election - was because they have accepted such a huge amount for their election wari a huge amount for their election war chest— a huge amount for their election war chest and _ a huge amount for their election war chest and clearly— a huge amount for their election war chest and clearly negotiating - a huge amount for their election war chest and clearly negotiating for- chest and clearly negotiating for more _ chest and clearly negotiating for more what _ chest and clearly negotiating for more. what the _ chest and clearly negotiating for more. what the conservatives l chest and clearly negotiating for. more. what the conservatives did chest and clearly negotiating for- more. what the conservatives did at the end _ more. what the conservatives did at the end of— more. what the conservatives did at the end of last — more. what the conservatives did at the end of last year, _ more. what the conservatives did at the end of last year, they— more. what the conservatives did at the end of last year, they upped - more. what the conservatives did at the end of last year, they upped thej the end of last year, they upped the amount— the end of last year, they upped the amount of— the end of last year, they upped the amount of money— the end of last year, they upped the amount of money parties _ the end of last year, they upped the amount of money parties can - the end of last year, they upped the amount of money parties can spend| the end of last year, they upped the . amount of money parties can spend at elections _ amount of money parties can spend at elections to _ amount of money parties can spend at

elections to enable _ amount of money parties can spend at elections to enable themselves - amount of money parties can spend at elections to enable themselves to - elections to enable themselves to spend _ elections to enable themselves to spend more — elections to enable themselves to spend more and _ elections to enable themselves to spend more and i— elections to enable themselves to spend more and i think— elections to enable themselves to spend more and i think there - elections to enable themselves to spend more and i think there is. elections to enable themselves to spend more and i think there is al spend more and i think there is a real prohlem _ spend more and i think there is a real problem with _ spend more and i think there is a real problem with not _ spend more and i think there is a real problem with not only- spend more and i think there is a| real problem with not only racism and sexism — real problem with not only racism and sexism in _ real problem with not only racism and sexism in politics— real problem with not only racism and sexism in politics but- real problem with not only racism and sexism in politics but big - real problem with not only racism i and sexism in politics but big money in politics— and sexism in politics but big money in politics which _ and sexism in politics but big money in politics which needs _ and sexism in politics but big money in politics which needs to _ and sexism in politics but big money in politics which needs to be - and sexism in politics but big money in politics which needs to be clamp i in politics which needs to be clamp down _ in politics which needs to be clamp down on _ in politics which needs to be clamp down on. , . , ., . down on. often been a very toxic mix of money in — down on. often been a very toxic mix of money in politics, _ down on. often been a very toxic mix of money in politics, no _ down on. often been a very toxic mix of money in politics, no question - of money in politics, no question about that. on that question about diane abbott's view is that labour also has a problem with riders, is she right? also has a problem with riders, is she riuht? ~ , . she right? absolutely have further to no, we she right? absolutely have further to go. we have — she right? absolutely have further to go, we have to _ she right? absolutely have further to go, we have to keep _ she right? absolutely have further to go, we have to keep going -- i she right? absolutely have further to go, we have to keep going -- a| to go, we have to keep going —— a prohlem _ to go, we have to keep going —— a prohlem with— to go, we have to keep going —— a problem with racism. _ to go, we have to keep going —— a problem with racism. you - to go, we have to keep going —— a problem with racism. you shouldl problem with racism. you should neverm — problem with racism. you should neverm you _ problem with racism. you should never... you should _ problem with racism. you should never... you should look- problem with racism. you should never... you should look at - problem with racism. you should never... you should look at your| problem with racism. you should - never... you should look at your own faults _ never... you should look at your own faults and _ never... you should look at your own faults and actions _ never... you should look at your own faults and actions because _ never... you should look at your own faults and actions because we - never... you should look at your own faults and actions because we have . never... you should look at your own faults and actions because we have a| faults and actions because we have a really— faults and actions because we have a really trig _ faults and actions because we have a really trig context _ faults and actions because we have a really big context here, _ faults and actions because we have a really big context here, the - faults and actions because we have a really big context here, the fawcettl really big context here, the fawcett society— really big context here, the fawcett society did — really big context here, the fawcett society did research _ really big context here, the fawcett society did research last _ really big context here, the fawcett society did research last year- society did research last year showing _ society did research last year showing 75% _ society did research last year showing 75% of _ society did research last year showing 75% of black- society did research last year showing 75% of black womenj society did research last year- showing 75% of black women have experienced — showing 75% of black women have experienced discrimination- showing 75% of black women have experienced discrimination at - showing 75% of black women have i experienced discrimination at work. that is— experienced discrimination at work. that is the — experienced discrimination at work. that is the context. _ experienced discrimination at work. that is the context. who _ experienced discrimination at work. that is the context. who can - experienced discrimination at work. that is the context. who can say. that is the context. who can say there _ that is the context. who can say there is— that is the context. who can say there is no— that is the context. who can say there is no problem? _ that is the context. who can say there is no problem? we - that is the context. who can say there is no problem? we have . that is the context. who can say| there is no problem? we have to recognise — there is no problem? we have to recognise it _ there is no problem? we have to recognise it has _ there is no problem? we have to recognise it has been _ there is no problem? we have to recognise it has been a - there is no problem? we have to recognise it has been a terrible l recognise it has been a terrible evil problem. _ recognise it has been a terrible evil problem, toxic, _ recognise it has been a terrible evil problem, toxic, in- recognise it has been a terrible evil problem, toxic, in politicsl recognise it has been a terrible i evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally— evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and _ evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and we _ evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and we have _ evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and we have to - evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and we have to be - evil problem, toxic, in politics and generally and we have to be part i evil problem, toxic, in politics andl generally and we have to be part of

fighting _ generally and we have to be part of fighting against _ generally and we have to be part of fighting against it, _ generally and we have to be part of fighting against it, not _ generally and we have to be part of fighting against it, not saying, - generally and we have to be part of fighting against it, not saying, we i fighting against it, not saying, we are all— fighting against it, not saying, we are all right, _ fighting against it, not saying, we are all right, that— fighting against it, not saying, we are all right, that would _ fighting against it, not saying, we are all right, that would be - fighting against it, not saying, wei are all right, that would be wrong. should _ are all right, that would be wrong. should diane — are all right, that would be wrong. should diane abbott _ are all right, that would be wrong. should diane abbott be _ are all right, that would be wrong. should diane abbott be allowed i are all right, that would be wrong. i should diane abbott be allowed back into the labour party? nearly a year she has been investigated for a letter she wrote to the papers. j she has been investigated for a letter she wrote to the papers. i do letter she wrote to the papers. i do not like to second—guess the independent _ not like to second—guess the independent complaints - not like to second—guess the - independent complaints procedure, i strongly— independent complaints procedure, i strongly support _ independent complaints procedure, i strongly support keir— independent complaints procedure, i strongly support keir starmer's - strongly support keir starmer's drive _ strongly support keir starmer's drive against _ strongly support keir starmer's drive against anti—semitism, . strongly support keir starmer's drive against anti—semitism, it| strongly support keir starmer's - drive against anti—semitism, it had to he _ drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted — drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out— drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out of— drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out of the _ drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out of the party, - drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out of the party, but. drive against anti—semitism, it had to be rooted out of the party, but i| to be rooted out of the party, but i would _ to be rooted out of the party, but i would he _ to be rooted out of the party, but i would be sad — to be rooted out of the party, but i would be sad if— to be rooted out of the party, but i would be sad if diane _ to be rooted out of the party, but i would be sad if diane abbott - to be rooted out of the party, but i would be sad if diane abbott endsl would be sad if diane abbott ends her political — would be sad if diane abbott ends her political career— would be sad if diane abbott ends her political career and _ would be sad if diane abbott ends her political career and she - would be sad if diane abbott ends her political career and she has. her political career and she has been _ her political career and she has been an— her political career and she has been an amazing _ her political career and she has been an amazing trailblazer- her political career and she has| been an amazing trailblazer not her political career and she has. been an amazing trailblazer not a niember— been an amazing trailblazer not a member of— been an amazing trailblazer not a member of the _ been an amazing trailblazer not a member of the labour— been an amazing trailblazer not a member of the labour party. - been an amazing trailblazer not a member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth, member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth. we — member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth, we will _ member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth, we will asking _ member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth, we will asking about - member of the labour party. jonathan ashworth, we will asking about that i ashworth, we will asking about that in a few minutes. theo, with your business experience, to huge events of the last few days in politics, they have ground out what you might normally be ongoing discussion of the budget —— they have drowned out. did it improve anything as far as you could see, the budget? trio. did it improve anything as far as you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing. _ you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing, last _ you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing, last act _ you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing, last act of _ you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing, last act of a _ you could see, the budget? no, very disappointing, last act of a very - disappointing, last act of a very unhappy bunch, to be honest, no

effort was made to do anything creative with ingenuity that would raise more money for the treasury. we know the treasury needs more money to pay for essential services, especially the nhs, but to say they are going to have efficiencies, cutbacks, in normal language, and to do very little else to raise further income which the treasury keeps saying it needs, and there are so many opportunities to raise more income to be able to support the country and the economy. and they were left alone, least of all the damage to the local high streets being caused by business rates which are going to go up by 6% when inflation is going to go down to 2%, just ridiculous.— just ridiculous. hugh i fearnley-whittingstall just ridiculous. hugh - fearnley-whittingstall was just ridiculous. hugh _ fearnley-whittingstall was here last fearnley—whittingstall was here last week and he said there were lots of wealthy people who would like to pay more tax, would you like to pay more tax question that nobody wants to pay more tax, i can use my money to

do much better things than giving it to the government and do more good. put that to one side, the reality is, opportunities notjust for the same people to pay more tax, opportunities to collect tax from people not paying tax, that is the point. people not paying tax, that is the oint. . ~ people not paying tax, that is the oint. ., ~' ,, people not paying tax, that is the oint. . ,, . ,. . point. thank you, fascinating, back with ou a point. thank you, fascinating, back with you a bit _ point. thank you, fascinating, back with you a bit later— point. thank you, fascinating, back with you a bit later in _ point. thank you, fascinating, back with you a bit later in the _ with you a bit later in the programme. charles spencer's speech at his sister princess diana's funeral is seared in the country's memory — his fury at how his sister had been hounded by the paparazzi hot and raw. but more than 25 years later, he's now revealing the secrets of his early life, hidden away by aristocratic stiff upper lip. he's written a compelling and brutal book about violent and sexual abuse at the boarding school he was sent to when he was just eight years old. and how he and diana were hurt by one of their nannies, nanny forster, as children. i went to meet him at his family's isth—century london home, spencer house.

he started by telling me about his first day at the school. and i look back and i know he hated doing it. in fact, he told me that was the worst day of his fathering for me. i mean, i went back through my family records, a lot of the people who lived here, over 300 years, and you can see this sort of conspiracy among the adults. they knew how brutal it was going to be for the little boys being sent away. and i don't blame my parents or any of the other parents for thinking it was the done thing at that time. i think the idea was that it was essential to blend with people from similar backgrounds, and to take the hard knock that the real brutal sort of heartbreak of being sent away from home. and in return you were going to be privileged and part of a set that you could rely on for the rest of your life. you say you felt cast out by your family, though. does that feeling ever go away?

ithink... one of the things i had, actually, for the book, were my letters home, and i see this theme when i read them, that i'm always apologising. and i think i know that that was because the only way i could make sense of being sent to boarding school at such a vulnerable age was that i must have failed somehow as a son. and i don't think any child should really have to feel that. even before, though, you were sent away to school, you talk about some elements of your upbringing. you talk also about one of the nannies that looked after you and your sister banging your heads together painfully. that kind of discipline and perhaps that kind of violence. i mean, do you think that element of that at home had an effect on you and your sister before you were even sent away? i think that really damaging violence to children is going to affect them, whatever house they come from, whatever family they are born into.

and that nanny who did that to us, i mean, she used to crack our heads together if we were both found to have done something naughty. obviously without my father's knowledge, but it really hurt. it wasn't a tap on the wrist, it was a cracking crunch, you know? and i remember it still. i have two older sisters and only later was it found out that a different nanny was punishing them by ladling laxatives down them and my parents couldn't work out why they were constantly ill. so you were dealing with a very unstructured world of privileged parents living parallel lives to their children. but you and diana and your other sisters were then brought up even in a home environment where staff, nannies who were hired to look after you, were hurting you. hmm. again, i don't think we realised that that was wrong. we knew it was painful and we knew it was something we wanted to avoid, but i think children don't know morality necessarily at that stage, or certainly the law.

so it was something that we lived with. let's talk then about when you arrived at school, and in the book, page after page after page describes terrible violence, what seems clearly like forms of paedophilia. terrible abuse. and you set it out compellingly, brutally and very honestly. is there a moment, though, in amongst all of that, that still particularly haunts you? i think the problem, why i called it a "very private school", it was because it was dominated by a particular figure, the headmaster, who'd closed down the school to the outside world. he constructed his dreamworld of having 75 little boys at his beck and call for sadistic thrashings and sexual thrills. if i look at one incident, it seems so minor, if i look

at the catalogue of horrible things that happened, was this chilling moment when he caught us all in my dormitory, and the sheer rattling joy in his voice as he called us overfor a thrashing. i mean, i was beaten lots of times, but there was one particular beating which was so violent and painful that i had to deal with that separately as a sort of therapeutic session 20 or 30 years later, because it was so shocking. you just said, "oh, it was a minor thing." mm—hm. it's not a minor thing for a young boy to be thrashed violently by an adult, by a strong man. he was addicted, i would... no. he very much enjoyed hurting little boys, and his trick was using a cane. he had various canes with their own names,

and his signature was cutting... you know, this was pants down, cutting the buttocks with five strokes and then putting the sixth one across the five. it was something about a focused aggression and what i would now call sexual gratification that came through that evening, that's what shook me. there was also the sexual abuse, actually, from a female staff member. i mean, you were groomed... yes. ..as an 11—year—old. she was an assistant matron at the school, twice your age, someone who you should have been able to trust. what happened, and what effect did that have on you in later years? i think to set the context, this was a school without feminine touch at all. there was one very tough, deeply aggressive matron in charge of the sort of matrony things, you know, clothes, etc. and it seemed so wonderful to have a youngerfemale member of staff who was 20.

and i remember i was sent halfway through a term to a dormitoryjust outside her room in the attics. and she started by giving... she had sweets. sweets, grapes, biscuits and all that sort of thing. and then she started seducing me and others, actually, but as far as i was concerned i was suddenly the focus of some feminine warmth. and it started with lots of long, long kisses, of a sort i didn't really understand at all. you know, french kissing was not something i knew anything about. and then it progressed further. and, i mean, i have to say, and i don't know, i've not talked to many victims of sexual abuse at a young age, it was almost a thrilling secret. i didn't know how wrong it was, i certainly didn't know it was a crime. it's incredible to imagine that nobody knew, that nobody told. what was it like living in that culture of secrecy? did you think about telling other people? telling your parents?

did you think about telling other people in your life? you are right, there was a culture of secrecy. and alongside that ran a very strong... i think the biggest rule, unwritten rule in the school, was "don't tell tales". of course, that's very self—serving for an abusive environment. and i actually felt, even writing this book, ifelt occasions where my conscience said, "you're sneaking, you're telling tales on the school," even now, you know, a few decades on. we came from backgrounds where conversations with parents were not as they would be on the whole today. i didn't tell anyone until... in fact the first family members i told were my two surviving sisters, who are in their mid—to—late 60s, and that was about a year ago. because i thought i better warn them what was going to come out in this book. and they were absolutely stunned. something you write in the book is that when diana was being sent away to school, she said to yourfather, "if you loved me, you wouldn't leave me here."

do you think she was also hurt or affected by being sent away? well, first of all i'm so proud of her for saying that. it's so incredibly impactful. to the point that my father remembered it. i would say any child, i believe under teenage years, under13, ithink... i don't think they should be sent away, i don't think it's fair. i don't think they can possibly understand what's going on. there are a lot of teenagers who would think, "great, i want to get away from parents!" and that's fine. of course, it's a personal decision but i don't think any child, personally, should be sent away before they hit puberty. when you were there in that terrible environment, you write about how you were self—harming. you were making yourself sick. mm—hm. it was very poignant to read of that, of course, also with people being aware of what diana went through. did you ever discuss those experiences with her? no.

so, i've not been diagnosed with anything from that time but it's quite clear to me i had bulimia at one stage. and mine was very much connected to a need for some attention. i was, i say it in the book, i felt like i was drowning in an adult sea. we had metal chamber pots under our bed in case we were sick in the night, and i used to make myself vomit. and i'd take it to the matron to show her. and it was, i realise, a complete cry for attention and help. and i never discussed that sort of mental illness things, really, with diana. and certainly... we grew up together. i don't remember ever discussing anything from boarding school at all. she, though, had such a reputation for being able to show incredible empathy. mm. what do you think she would make of this now, knowing what you went through as a young boy? as a tiny boy?

i think she would have been pretty cross. and appalled. and... yeah, i think she would have been stunned, actually. and the fact that i went to such a tricky place, i think she would have found hard. i know you don't want to discuss the specifics around your nephews, william and harry, but do you think that boarding school experiences have made it harder for the aristocracy in this country to have healthy family relationships? i couldn't answer that because i can only really talk about myself, i think. it's too personal to trample on other people's family with a view on something as important as that. my personal view is... i mean, i've had seven children and i would never send any of them away. if they wanted to go away, they could or can. two of them chose to go weekly boarding in their mid—teens. but ijust, i couldn't

have done it to them, i couldn't have said, "right, you're going." i just couldn't. it would break my heart. and it's interesting, you write, you asked your contemporaries at school to describe what you were like. yes. and they use the word angry. yes. and you were angry for a long time. and everybody was a witness to some of your completely understandable anger, of course, publicly in september 1997. did the frustration, do you think, at some of the ill—treatment of your sister, diana, come from some of that buried hurt from school? i don't think she ever understood why her genuinely good intentions were sneered at by the media. why there appeared to be a permanent quest on their behalf to bring her down. it is baffling. my own and only explanation is that genuine goodness is threatening to those at the opposite end of the moral spectrum. that sense perhaps that you finally wanted to stand up to bullies. i used to take on the

press a fair amount. so that's connected to this school. because i had an absolute hatred of injustice and non—truth. and so perhaps when i gave the eulogy at diana's funeral, it's hopping on a generation from that, because of their impact on her death. in terms, though, of the provocation that you felt then, driven by paparazzi, and the treatment of your sister, diana, by the press, if you look now, in 2024, at how the paparazzi has sort of developed into this online circus, this online free for all, do you think the dangers of that are perhaps more potent? and if we look at what's happening now around the current princess of wales, do you think the dangers of that online, of the sort of conspiracy world, are more potent than the press intrusion that you have fought against?

no, i think it was more dangerous back in the day. ithink... yeah, if i look back to '97 and diana's death, i think that was so shocking to... the circumstances of her death were so shocking that it did make the industry that supports the paparazzi really consider more carefully what it could and couldn't do. not because they had a moral judgment, but because it was unacceptable to the public. do you worry, though, about what has happened to the truth? i do worry about what has happened to the truth. and in terms of the impact on you, having written this book. you know, you sat on this for decades because of that culture of fear and the silence that was imposed upon you. what was the effect on you of finally putting pen to paper? it took me into very dark

places inside of me. i had endless nightmares. i didn't know the appalling things, the really serious things that had happened to some of my friends and contemporaries. and i'd come back from having met them and interviewed them and be in pieces. and then actually at the end of last year when i'd finished the book, i had a bit of a breakdown again. and i had to go into a residential treatment for trauma for writing this book. you say it got very dark. yes, i got to a place where everything seemed rather pointless. not suicidal, but everything seemed absolutely pointless, because i think confronting... i don't think it's an overstatement to say confronting evil, is a very... well, it's cataclysmic, really, or it can be. i've always been intrigued by what people, by what humans are capable of doing to each other.

and even my friends would be amazed to know, i haven't had a drink for many, many weeks. and just centring myself. and i have emdr, which is a form of therapy for ptsd. have other people who hadn't spoken out before come to you since then? and if anyone is suffering from abuse and they don't yet have the courage to speak out, what would you say to them? they must speak out. i think so many of these people, when i approach them, i said, what's your memory of this place? and they went, oh, no, no, no, i've put that away in a box for 50 years. and then when they open it, i could see them come alive and be happier. and obviously i'm not a therapist, i'm not qualified, but i hope i was a trusted ear. i do think telling people close to you... i had an e—mail from someone three years older than me at maidwell, and he wrote to me and said, "i just want you to know that you writing this book,

i've been with my wife for a0 years, i've just told her what i went through at maidwell and we spent the last hour crying together." you know, i went to a restaurant last night and i was early, and the maitre d' came up and hejust whispered to me, "i just want to thank you. i went to a school like that. and i've never told anyone." and it's everywhere. power in the truth. i like to think so. charles, thank you so much indeed for speaking to us today. it's been fascinating. thank you. well, in a statement, maidwell hall school said it was sorry about the experiences charles spencer and some other pupils had had. it said almost every facet of school life has evolved significantly since the '70s, in particular the safeguarding and welfare of children. if you have been affected by issues raised, there is lots of information about organisations which can offer support on the bbc actionline. and you can see a longer version of that interivew on the bbc iplayer or listen in a special episode of newscast on bbc sounds.

back to politics then. earlier we talked to conserative cabinet minister mark harper about the attack on diane abbott. she said the actions of the labour leadership had also been disappointing. she was suspended by labour last april after writing that irish, jewish and traveller people were not subject to racism all their lives but is still waiting to find out whether she can be allowed back into the party. labour'sjonathan ashworth is here. welcome, good to have you with us in the studio. harriet harman has told us this morning, angela rayner, deputy leader, yvette cooper, they have all said they would like to see diane abbott setting again as a labour mp, would you? first diane abbott setting again as a labour mp, would you? first of all, i cannot imagine _ labour mp, would you? first of all, i cannot imagine what _ labour mp, would you? first of all, i cannot imagine what she - labour mp, would you? first of all, i cannot imagine what she has - labour mp, would you? first of all, j i cannot imagine what she has been through this week, i think it is well documented diane is the member of parliament who gets the most

abuse. for her to open the newspapers this week and not only read the reprehensible, racist disgusting comments about her but to read that somebody was talking about how she should be shot, in the context of two parliamentary colleagues being murdered, in recent years, and to see tories take so long to acknowledge the racism and still refused to hand back the £10 million which is bankrolling the party, i think it shows you the depths to which the tory party has sunk to. on the particular issue and i'm afraid i probably am going to frustrate you in this interview, there is an independent process that looks into these matters, i cannot second guess the process. i have in the past served on the national executive committee, understand the processes have to be free from political interference... mr; political interference... my question — political interference... my question was, _ political interference... my question was, would you like to see her back as a labour mp?— question was, would you like to see her back as a labour mp? diane is a aood her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague _

her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and _ her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and i _ her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and i am _ her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and i am in - her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and i am in awe - her back as a labour mp? diane is a good colleague and i am in awe of. good colleague and i am in awe of everything she has achieved. would ou like to everything she has achieved. would you like to see _ everything she has achieved. would you like to see her— everything she has achieved. would you like to see her back _ everything she has achieved. would you like to see her back in - everything she has achieved. would you like to see her back in the - you like to see her back in the party? you like to see her back in the -a ? �* you like to see her back in the .a ? �* ., you like to see her back in the -a ? �* ., ., ., you like to see her back in the party? i'm not going to pressure the independent — party? i'm not going to pressure the independent process. _ party? i'm not going to pressure the independent process. it _ party? i'm not going to pressure the independent process. it is _ party? i'm not going to pressure thej independent process. it is important these processes take their course and the reason... i am not casually indifferent to what has gone on not just this week but the abuse that diane has had over many years. the labour party — diane has had over many years. the labour party itself has racism within its ranks, she has said. we must not within its ranks, she has said. , must not be complacent about racism, we must challenge it, we must challenge is on a phobia and anti—semitism. in the labour party and in society at large. if we have and in society at large. if we have an independent process, it is important notjust for this important not just for this particular case important notjust for this particular case but for every other case this process looks at. our viewers will — case this process looks at. our viewers will understand what you have set about having people look at this specifically, but what many people might find almost bewildering is the letter she published in the observer was 126 words long. today

it is 330 days since it was published. she apologised almost immediately. how on earth has it taken so long? it is important also for viewers to understand in other cases there was another labour mp, called kwasi kwarteng superficially black, apologised, she was allowed back within five months. an investigation into andy mcdonald, another colleague of yours, just under five another colleague of yours, just underfive months. in this case, why has it taken nearly a year to look at what diane abbott said in a 126 word letter? i at what diane abbott said in a 126 word letter?— word letter? i said a few months auo, word letter? i said a few months aao, i word letter? i said a few months ago. i will _ word letter? i said a few months ago, i will frustrate _ word letter? i said a few months ago, i will frustrate you - word letter? i said a few months ago, i will frustrate you in - word letter? i said a few months ago, i will frustrate you in this i ago, i will frustrate you in this interview because you are asking me questions which i quite properly do not know the answer to. if it is an independent process, they are not going to be telling me as a politician the ins and outs of what is going on at every step of the way. i understand the frustration, i

can well imagine viewers very frustrated, typical politician not answering the question. the simple truth is if you have an independent process, i do not get reports. the process, i do not get reports. the process has to be allowed to look into all of the matters without political pressure, as it does for every other case brought before it. do you find it frustrating having to answer questions about something that has dragged on for so long? i that has dragged on for so long? i can well understand why people want answers to this, of course i can, i am not daft, of course we want to see answers. you are right, i want to be talking about the upcoming general election, the tory leadership election and that stuff and labour's plan to rebuild the country. i want to come back to the point, the reason i say this and i hope the viewers do not think i am coming across as overly official in my response, i have been a member of the governing committee, i know how the governing committee, i know how the things work, i know how

solicitors can sometimes get involved, what people say and programmes like this can be used in the debates and discussions that go on when it is supposed to be an independent process. flan on when it is supposed to be an independent process.— independent process. can you guarantee _ independent process. can you guarantee it _ independent process. can you guarantee it will _ independent process. can you guarantee it will conclude - independent process. can you i guarantee it will conclude before the general election? i guarantee it will conclude before the general election?— guarantee it will conclude before the general election? i would hope so and i would _ the general election? i would hope so and i would hope _ the general election? i would hope so and i would hope parliamentary| so and i would hope parliamentary colleagues, all of whom are involved in a complaint being investigated, i would hope all of these things get concluded in a timely manner. {line would hope all of these things get concluded in a timely manner. one of the big things — concluded in a timely manner. one of the big things you _ concluded in a timely manner. one of the big things you talked _ concluded in a timely manner. one of the big things you talked about - concluded in a timely manner. one of the big things you talked about in - the big things you talked about in the big things you talked about in the last couple of weeks, the government's cuts to national insurance, rachel reeves shadow chancellor was here last week and lots of viewers got in touch afterwards to say they were very impressed with something she had to say, but later in the week she said the conservatives will massively cut the conservatives will massively cut the nhs and state pensions because they want to phase out national insurance contributions. the money raised from ni is not specifically allocated for those areas, why is labour being misleading? irate allocated for those areas, why is labour being misleading? we are not bein: labour being misleading? we are not being remotely _ labour being misleading? we are not being remotely misleading, - labour being misleading? we are not being remotely misleading, what - labour being misleading? we are not being remotely misleading, what we | being remotely misleading, what we saw in the budget was the government

finance and unfunded £46 billion bombshell, £1 billion more than liz truss, the question is, where is the money coming from to fund it? is it boring with the potential consequence for mortgages as we saw with liz truss? —— is it borrowing. is it cuts to state pension, the nhs? a new tax? if so, that would mean pensioners paying £800 more... your point about, it is not misleading. national insurance goes into the national insurance fund. in law that fund is separated and the money from that fund goes to state pension and a proportion goes to... it has not been specifically allocated... it has not been specifically allocated. . .— it has not been specifically allocated... ., . , . allocated... know, that is the law. a very important _ allocated... know, that is the law. a very important point, _ allocated... know, that is the law. a very important point, labour - allocated... know, that is the law. a very important point, labour is i a very important point, labour is claiming the tories have offered and unfunded billions... thea;r claiming the tories have offered and unfunded billions. . .— claiming the tories have offered and| unfunded billions. . ._ they unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear _ unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear this _ unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear this week _ unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear this week it - unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear this week it is - unfunded billions... they have. they have been clear this week it is a - have been clear this week it is a long term aspiration, jeremy hunt said it would be the work of many,

many parliaments, by telling our viewers this is something like liz truss's immediate tax cuts which caused mayhem in the economy, it is not the case. they have been clearer it is the work of many parliaments. you can disagree with it if you like, of course. it is misleading to tell people it is some kind of unfunded crazy tax cut that would come in straightaway.— come in straightaway. perfectly le . itimate come in straightaway. perfectly legitimate to _ come in straightaway. perfectly legitimate to question - come in straightaway. perfectly legitimate to question whether| come in straightaway. perfectly - legitimate to question whether £46 billion will come from to fund the bombshell. if you sever the link between national insurance contributions and the state pension, what does it mean for the future of the state pension? the daily express yesterday, a campaign group were questioning it means the tories want to means test state pension in the future. i think the state pension is under threat as we know it under this plan from the tories.- under threat as we know it under this plan from the tories. bound to be an issue — this plan from the tories. bound to be an issue of _ this plan from the tories. bound to be an issue of great _ this plan from the tories. bound to be an issue of great discussion. - this plan from the tories. bound to | be an issue of great discussion. are you still sticking to late spring

election? ,., ., , election? the government not putting the national interest _ election? the government not putting the national interest first, _ election? the government not putting the national interest first, general- the national interest first, general election or a tory leadership election? the instability is not in national interest, they should name the date as soon as possible. jonathan ashworth, great to have you in the studio. thank you for being here. well, it's nearly ten o'clock. now, we started this morning asking if our politics has a problem with race. the conservative cabinet minister mark harper said no.. absolutely not. as the prime minister himself said this week, we are a party proudly led by the first british asian prime minister with the most ethnically diverse cabinet there has ever been and we are a party which welcomes people from across the united kingdom, whatever their background, whatever their race, if they share our values and our approach to politics. i think that that issue and national insurance we were just discussing with jonathan ashworth, insurance we were just discussing withjonathan ashworth, both issues we will hear about towards the

election. samuel, if you are still in number 10, would you be saying, go for it, or hang on, hope something turns up and stick around to the autumn?— something turns up and stick around to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now _ to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now is _ to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now is the _ to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now is the right - to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now is the right time - to the autumn? definitely hang on, i don't think now is the right time to l don't think now is the right time to id don't think now is the right time to go to— don't think now is the right time to go to the _ don't think now is the right time to go to the electorate as a conservative because the outcome would _ conservative because the outcome would be _ conservative because the outcome would be shocking. | conservative because the outcome would be shocking.— would be shocking. i was going to sa last would be shocking. i was going to say last time _ would be shocking. i was going to say last time you _ would be shocking. i was going to say last time you hear _ would be shocking. i was going to say last time you hear is - would be shocking. i was going to say last time you hear is a - would be shocking. i was going to| say last time you hear is a slightly rude word about the former prime minister. do you think the chances is they could turn it around? i is they could turn it around? i think first of all national insurance, the idea makes sense and a very— insurance, the idea makes sense and a very sensible aspiration. i think the economy is turning around, inflation — the economy is turning around, inflation is _ the economy is turning around, inflation is coming down, but it has to be _ inflation is coming down, but it has to be more — inflation is coming down, but it has to be more thanjust fixing the economy, _ to be more thanjust fixing the economy, there needs to be an articulation or vision that people want _ articulation or vision that people want to— articulation or vision that people want to get behind and of course rishi _ want to get behind and of course rishi sunak is not quite there yet and i_ rishi sunak is not quite there yet and i do — rishi sunak is not quite there yet and i do not know if by autumn he or whoeverm _ and i do not know if by autumn he or whoeverm a— and i do not know if by autumn he or

whoever- - -— whoever... a week is a long time in olitics, whoever... a week is a long time in politics. six — whoever... a week is a long time in politics, six months _ whoever... a week is a long time in politics, six months is _ whoever... a week is a long time in politics, six months is a _ whoever... a week is a long time in politics, six months is a century. i politics, six months is a century. theo, who would you invest in politically? sound a bit gutted about the state of it all. shall politically? sound a bit gutted about the state of it all. all very disappointing- _ about the state of it all. all very disappointing. the _ about the state of it all. all very disappointing. the tories - about the state of it all. all very disappointing. the tories have l about the state of it all. all very - disappointing. the tories have done such a _ disappointing. the tories have done such a rubbish— disappointing. the tories have done such a rubbish job _ disappointing. the tories have done such a rubbish job definitely - disappointing. the tories have done such a rubbish job definitely of - disappointing. the tories have done such a rubbish job definitely of the i such a rubbish job definitely of the last seven, — such a rubbish job definitely of the last seven, eight _ such a rubbish job definitely of the last seven, eight years. _ such a rubbish job definitely of the last seven, eight years. i- last seven, eight years. i have spent — last seven, eight years. i have spent all— last seven, eight years. i have spent all of— last seven, eight years. i have spent all of their— last seven, eight years. i have spent all of their time - last seven, eight years. i have spent all of their time looking | spent all of their time looking inwards— spent all of their time looking inwards at— spent all of their time looking inwards at themselves - spent all of their time looking inwards at themselves rather| spent all of their time looking - inwards at themselves rather than doing _ inwards at themselves rather than doing the — inwards at themselves rather than doing the job _ inwards at themselves rather than doing the job we _ inwards at themselves rather than doing the job we have _ inwards at themselves rather than doing the job we have elected - inwards at themselves rather than i doing the job we have elected them to do _ doing the job we have elected them to do they— doing the job we have elected them to do they have _ doing the job we have elected them to do. they have no _ doing the job we have elected them to do. they have no right— doing the job we have elected them to do. they have no right to - doing the job we have elected them to do. they have no right to stay i doing the job we have elected them to do. they have no right to stay in| to do. they have no right to stay in power _ to do. they have no right to stay in power whatsoever. _ to do. they have no right to stay in power whatsoever. fire _ to do. they have no right to stay in power whatsoever.— to do. they have no right to stay in power whatsoever. are you in for any ofthe power whatsoever. are you in for any of the others? _ power whatsoever. are you in for any of the others? the _ power whatsoever. are you in for any of the others? the interesting - power whatsoever. are you in for any of the others? the interesting thing l of the others? the interesting thing about the labour _ of the others? the interesting thing about the labour party, _ of the others? the interesting thing about the labour party, they - of the others? the interesting thing about the labour party, they are . about the labour party, they are unknown — about the labour party, they are unknown at _ about the labour party, they are unknown. at the _ about the labour party, they are unknown. at the moment - about the labour party, they are unknown. at the moment we - about the labour party, they are i unknown. at the moment we have about the labour party, they are - unknown. at the moment we have not seen the _ unknown. at the moment we have not seen the manifesto _ unknown. at the moment we have not seen the manifesto yet. _ unknown. at the moment we have not seen the manifesto yet. i— unknown. at the moment we have not seen the manifesto yet. i am - unknown. at the moment we have not seen the manifesto yet. i am more - seen the manifesto yet. i am more interested — seen the manifesto yet. i am more interested to — seen the manifesto yet. i am more interested to see _ seen the manifesto yet. i am more interested to see the _ seen the manifesto yet. i am more interested to see the manifesto . interested to see the manifesto before — interested to see the manifesto before absolutely _ interested to see the manifesto before absolutely putting - interested to see the manifesto before absolutely putting my. interested to see the manifesto i before absolutely putting my foot interested to see the manifesto - before absolutely putting my foot in any camp _ before absolutely putting my foot in an cam -. . . ., before absolutely putting my foot in an cam. . . ., any camp. harriet, i want to show viewers something _ any camp. harriet, i want to show viewers something lovely, - any camp. harriet, i want to show viewers something lovely, a - any camp. harriet, i want to show. viewers something lovely, a picture of you when you had just been elected, 1982, you are not standing at the general election, how do you feel about saying goodbye to it all? i think i will feel quite liberated because it is a massive privilege to because it is a massive privilege to be an mp but also a massive

responsibility because for every day you are an mp, you are the only mp for that constituency, 365 days a year. i think i will be liberated but i don't know what i will do with my liberation, but my mum lived until she was 100, sol my liberation, but my mum lived until she was 100, so i have probably got about 30 years left to do something. anyway, i will chair the fawcett society which i'm really looking forward to foster a very noble aim. looking forward to foster a very noble aim-— looking forward to foster a very noble aim. ., . . ._ , u, looking forward to foster a very noble aim. ., . . ._ , .., ., noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in — noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in the _ noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in the studio, _ noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in the studio, as _ noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in the studio, as are - noble aim. you are always welcome to come back in the studio, as are you i come back in the studio, as are you two also. thank you so much to my panel, harriet, theo and samuel. great to have you with us. thank you, of course, to you all for spending your sunday morning with us on a day when we have been talking about some of the fraught issues in our politics these days. rows over race that many mps, perhaps many of you, thought had been, or should have been, consigned to the past. and another reminder of how the mix of millions of pounds and politics can turn toxic. you can watch anything again on iplayer of course. don't forget the full version

of our converation with charles spencer, diana's brother, is on there and bbc sounds. i'll be joining paddy o'connell in a few minutes for sunday's newscast. or i'll look forward to seeing you next sunday, same time, same place.

good morning. it's sunday. it's 10 o'clock. welcome to politics north west.

this week — projects pushed down the road, plans to boost the local science sector, and a bit of green energy. coming up: mum's the word — but why didn't anyone tell these two why their preferred choice of school wasn't going to open? i opened my offer, i got offered a school that wasn't one of my five choices, i couldn't understand what had happened, had i done something wrong with my application? and we'll look at separate reports on health inequality and the lack of compelling evidence of the government delivering levelling up. expecting quite a lot of positive change in the town and it's not really apparent today. i think this needs a lot of renovation and i don't think it's really happening, to be honest with you. we'll also ask if the river mersey can help power us towards net zero.