gang violence is rampant. the streets are lawless. basic services from health care to food distribution are broken. starvation and disease loom large. ariel henry, the unelected prime minister, has now said he's quitting. but is there any prospect of more effective leaders emerging? well, my guest is former acting prime minister claude joseph. can haiti's unfolding catastrophe be reversed? would an armed international intervention make things better or worse?

claudejoseph in port—au—prince, welcome to hardtalk. thank you, mr sackur. it's a pleasure. thank you forjoining us in what is still a very difficult situation in your country. tell me, since ariel henry, the prime minister, told the nation that he was quitting, has anything really changed around you in the capital port—au—prince, or in haiti? has any of the violence, any sense of the crisis changed? i must say that, of course we've seen a change, days are calm. the... the people now are trying to move to... ..to the specific activities. it's a new page.

it's a new chapter. it seems that people were waiting for this decision to be made. er... let me ask you something very simple. if you were to walk outside your own home right now onto the streets of port—au—prince, would you feel safe? i mean, are the police on the streets or are the armed gangs still running the streets? people, haitian people are not safe. i must say that. the situation is still a scary situation. people are still living a nightmare. this is why haitian, my haitian stakeholders, leaders have to quickly make a decision as to the presidential council to have a new government that can restore order in the country. i want to talk about that in some detail.

butjust one last question on the human crisis facing haitians right now. we've seen stories of doctors fleeing the hospitals because they are not safe. we've seen the airport and the ports shut down, so the food distribution system isn't working and therefore people are going hungry. right now, are people getting enough food to eat? there's talk of half the population being dependent on international assistance. how long can that be sustained? it is indeed a scary situation. people are living, on a daily basis, a nightmare in haiti. and this is the result of a country not being governed. this is the result of ariel henry and his government who have been trying to stay as long as possible in charge without any result. in fact, before this current situation, we had more than five million people facing

food insecurity in haiti. so this has become worse now. people cannot eat. we have, you know, more than three thousand hundred people now leaving their homes. so it's a very scary situation in haiti. you talk about the transitional council and the idea is it's going to be seven people running the country for an interim period before you get to elections. you're involved because your party gets one seat on this interim council, along with two of the other main political parties, and then i believe there's some seats reserved for big business and a couple of civil society organisations. what makes you think that this interim council can impose control and order and security on haiti?

first and foremost, let me thank my caricom brothers and sisters, caricom heads of state and government, who have been working to help haiti in that process. so what we understand, haitians, my fellow haitians, we do understand that they reject the old practices of picking winners and losers in haitian politics. so we are grateful, we are grateful for that. but, yes, i think that these seven people and this proposal, this solution is more inclusive. we believe that that presidential council can inspire more trust, and we can, that can change the situation on the ground. how can it be inspiring, mrjoseph, when it's dominated by old—style politicians,

if i may say so, people like yourself — although you're not going to be on the council, you'll be pretty much choosing one of the members of the council. so it's elite politicians who've failed in the past, plus big business leaders who are also responsible for the mess that haiti is in. how can the people of your country be confident that it's going to be leadership in a new style? this is a presidential council with people with diverse backgrounds, different political ideologies, with people that have close proximity with the mass. so i believe that this can change the situation on the ground. but of course, we will not change the political class or, you know, the businesspeople overnight. so it should be through a process. you keep talking about the process and you keep sort of implying that politics is being restored to haiti. isn't the truth that the real power in your country right now you keep talking about

the process and you keep sort of implying that politics is being restored to haiti. isn't the truth that the real power in your country right now resides with the very heavily armed gangs? and in particular, i'm thinking ofjimmy cherizier, known as barbecue, who leads the g9 gang. but there are other very powerful groups like g—pep and 5 secondes. these guys are running the streets, they have the weapons, they outgun what remains of the haitian police force. they will call the shots, literally. the gangs are strong because the state is weak and the gangs are strong because the leadership in the haitian national police leaves much to be desired. so there is a need to change that leadership. there is a need to inspire trust within the haitian national police.

there is a need to reinforce the state. and we believe that this transition, which i call a transition of wisdom, should not, you know, be there for a long time. it should be 12 months or maximum 18 months, and then they should organise elections to give a voice to the people. but to address my point, if you would address my point about the power of in particular mr cherizier, known as barbecue because of his gang's predilection for burning down buildings, often with the human residents inside those buildings. now, mr cherizier has made it plain that he sees a very significant role for himself in haiti's political future. he has said it's the haitian people who will take destiny into their own hands.

they will choose who will govern them. and the clear implication is that he might well be putting himself before the haitian people. do you think he should be allowed to play a role in haiti's political future? not at all. because we cannot have a transition that will reward those who have been killing people, those who have been kid... ..who kidnapped so many people in haiti and killed them. so we cannot reward them. so we need to have a transition for a short period of time that will work to hold elections, free and fair elections, give the haitian people a voice and a process so they can choose who they want to govern them. so this is what we have to do. and i said it again, those people you just referred to are strong because the state is weak. so we need to enforce the state to make those gangs so weak and then give them the place injail.

yeah, well, you may be being very optimistic there. let me quote to you the words of a us haiti politics expert, robert fatton, who rather memorably said this. he said, "it is no longer a question of whether "you want the gangs at the political table. "they may just take the whole table." that's the reality, is it not? because the firepower, as you've admitted, lies with them, not with the haitian police or army. what i'm saying is we need to not reward gangs in that process. how do you take them on, then? how do you confront them and ultimately defeat them and bring them to justice? we have to have within the haitian national police a strong, well—equipped, well—paid and well—trained

anti—gang unit that can face the gang. but your government is broke, the police are broke and half of the police have run away. because as i said, the leadership and the head of the haitian national police does not inspire trust. so we need to change that. we need to change that. and we need also to have a situation in haiti where politicians who want power do not try to reward the gangs or not arm them as they used to do over time. so it's that situation that we have in haiti now. it's a result of more than 30 years where politicians who want power, the only way that they think they can power, to get power, is to arm the gangs. if i may, sorry, mrjoseph, are you ready to admit that you've been part of the problem? insofar as, you know, in recent years, you've been an important senior

political leader in haiti. and in the words of vanda felbab—brown, who's at brookings institution, again studying haitian politics very closely, she says haitian politics... ..sorry, haitian politicians over the last generation only have themselves to blame because they have all, and i stress the word all, they've all used gangs to intimidate their opponents, to collect money and collect votes. you're part of that problem. no, not at all, because i served for a pretty short time. and before, you know, i was a professor in the united states before coming to haiti to serve my country. and when i come here, i try to change the paradigm and give voice to the young people in haiti. and this is what my political party is doing currently, trying to work with young people, give them voice in the process because they've been neglected, so we trying to give them voice. so it's, with us, with our political party, it's a new paradigm because it's a modern way of doing things, what we're trying to

institute in haiti now. yeah, you've said two interesting things about the immediate future. you've admitted that the police simply don't have the wherewithal right now to impose law and order and take on the gangs and defeat them. you've also said that that must happen quickly because you foresee elections and you suggested it might even happen within 12 months. does that mean that you are now going to rely on an outside intervention to deliver peace and security to haiti? what i understand today, we cannot do it alone. after gangs, you know, gangs freed more than 5,000 inmates. among them are criminals. the haitian national police is pretty weak, so we cannot do that alone. we need sincere assistance from our international partners to do it. so we do believe

that we need help. do you really think a force, it's being backed by the un, it's being led, it seems, by the kenyan police, although there are still some problems with the kenyan government getting full ratification for the deployment of their own police. but the idea is 1,000 kenyan police, plus a couple of thousand at least other security force personnel coming from the caribbean and some other african countries, would come to haiti with their weapons and help your police to impose order. do you think that is really going to work? we need anti—gang unit within the haitian national police, well—trained, well—paid and well—equipped.

we believe that our international partner can assist in this way. if we change the leadership at the head of the haitian national police, i think we can address the situation. but the haitian people have a very bitter memory of foreign interventions, assistance projects that frankly didn't deliver in the past, in particular around the aftermath of the 2020... sorry, the 2010 earthquake. what we are now talking about isn't a humanitarian mission. it is a mission of men in uniform wielding guns. and to quote the mandate of the multinational security support mission, they will be entitled to "take all necessary measures" against criminal elements inside your country. that means they are going to have the right to open fire on haitian citizens. do you really think that's going to be a positive? the right thing

for your country? i mean, i've been very careful with my words. i've never alluded to, you know, a multinational or an occupation force. you know, we all know the history of this country. we all know that has not worked. so we cannot think that by doing something, the same thing over and over again, it will work. i am asking for clear, precise assistance to our haitian national police, where we can have a clear, a strong anti unit gang within the haitian national police that can do the job. we believe, i do believe that the job can be done with the haitian national police, but with the assistance of our international partners. here's what you told me

when we last spoke, mrjoseph, in 2022. quote, "i believe haitians "should take care of their own problems. "the haitian problem should find a haitian solution." seems like you've changed in the last couple of years. that's exactly why i am grateful to my sisters and brothers, caricom sisters and brothers who have been working relentlessly to help haitians find a solution. but it's a haitian—led... 0k. so you're praising caricom, the organisation of caribbean nations. but you're kind of avoiding the central point that police and security officers from kenya, from benin, from a whole host of other countries are going to be bringing their weapons to haiti and will have the right to open fire on haitian citizens. and you said just a couple of years ago, no, we shouldn't go down that route. the haitian problem should find a purely haitian solution. ijust wonder.

it's just, this is the same stance that i'm taking right 110w. i'm telling you that we need an anti—gang unit within the haitian national police, with haitian police, not with foreign militaries, not an occupation force. i do think that we haitians can solve our problem. we definitely need the help, of course, but not an occupation force, because we all know the history of our country, that this has not worked, and i don't believe it will work. so this is my stance. i do not change my stance on that specific issue. let me ask you about another element of restoring order and stability to your country, and that would be sending a signal to the people of haiti that there no longer will be impunity for the terrible crimes that have been committed. and i'm thinking in particular

now about one crime — that is the assassination of presidentjovenel moise in 2021. last month you were indicted for complicity in the assassination of president moise. are you ready to stand trial? mr sackur, i was in hardtalk, and you, you... everyone knows how strong i was in asking forjustice to be served in this case. and i came then from the university of oxford, where i gave a conference on that particular issue. you know, everyone knows in haiti, if you conduct a survey, everyone will tell you that it's a political indictment. it's a political indictment because mr henry was weaponising the justice system

against his political opponent. let me interjectjust to point out that ariel henry has absolutely rejected the notion that he was in any way an influence on the judicial process. he said he played no role whatsoever. it was an independent decision taken by thejudiciary. and you are now facing that indictment for complicity in an assassination. yes. he will never acknowledge that he was the person behind that particular indictment. however, i appeal the case, this is what matters to us. we are building a case and we're going to fight the case because everyone knows that this was a weaponisation of the haitian justice system against someone who was leading mass, huge peaceful protests across the country to ask mr ariel henry to step down. everyone knows that i am his main opponent and that's...

well, you say you are his main opponent. you clearly still have political ambitions. one of your co—indictees for complicity, alleged complicity in the murder of president moise is his wife, martine, who is a political ally of yours. now, i'm just interested to know, you are not on the transitional council, which means you are free to run for president as and when elections are scheduled in haiti. do you intend to run or do you intend to support martine moise? listen, this is not the issue at hand today. this is not what matters. i'm interested in the wellbeing of my haitian people. i'm interested in seeing a successful transition that can, of course, lead to free and fair elections. i'm interested to see how we can get haiti out of this mess that, you know,

ariel henry and many others have put us. this is what matters to us today. as far as martine moise is concerned, i'm not martine moise�*s lawyer, but just think about it. if someone wants to kill her husband, would he plot with a bunch of people that she does not know, for instance, mercenaries from colombia or other countries? that does not make any sense. it should be clear, just as you deny any involvement, so does she. but my question was, and i need a yes/no answer because we're almost out of time, are either you or she planning to run for president? you say the people of haiti don't care. i dare say they do want to know the answer to that. what i'm saying now, at the moment is, this is a time to think

about the haitian people, their wellbeing. this is a time to think about how we can get them out of this mess. this is not a time for talking about personal political agenda, because we need to put those aside and put haitian first and foremost, put haiti first and foremost. so i'm not interested in talking about whether or not i will run. this is not what the haitian people want to hear now. they want to know, how can a responsible leader can help them getting out of this total mess? and this is what we are trying to do with getting all people from diverse backgrounds together to figure out a solution for haiti's problem. claudejoseph, we have to leave it there. i thank you very much indeed forjoining me from port—au—prince. thank you so much, mr stephen sackur.

i appreciate it. hello there. the rain has been pouring down on wednesday in snowdonia, in wales — there was about a third of a month's worth of rain injust 12 hours. things are not looking quite so dramatic over the next few days. there will be some further wet weather, rain or showers, and for many parts of the country, it's going to be mild — particularly across england and wales, where we've seen the milder air coming from a long way south.

things are a little bit chillier to the north, in northern scotland. in between, we've got the weather front — that's been bringing the rain, but that's moving northwards, taking wet weather into scotland and northern ireland. there's the wet weather that we've got in northern ireland and southern scotland — that moves its way northwards. for england and wales, there may be a bit more sunshine arriving in a southerly breeze before those showers push across from the west. but we're introducing some slightly drier air from france, hence the cloud breaking up more than it did on wednesday. and so, temperatures could reach 16, even 17 celsius. quite chilly underneath that rain, though, in the central belt of scotland. and that wet weather is still around as we head into thursday evening. that low pressure will slowly pull away — we've got another one waiting in the wings here, as we head towards the weekend. but this is how friday looks, and we've got wet weather in scotland sinking into northern england. a bit of snow over the mountains. we see some heavier showers developing further south, particularly in the south—east of england, with the risk of thunder. drier, though, for northern ireland are becoming drier in scotland, but we're getting a northerly wind here —

hence the temperatures will be dropping a bit through the day. won't be quite as warm in the south—east, but still temperatures of 13—14 celsius. as that area of low pressure moves away, things will calm down just for a while before the next weather system pushes in from the atlantic. but ahead of that, we'll have clear skies and light winds, so it's going to be cold. and there may be a frost around as well, particularly in scotland, with temperatures down as low as —3 or so. and there may be 1—2 mist and fog patches, too — but those will lift. we'll have some sunshine for a while, but we've got the weather system coming in from the atlantic — the cloud will tend to increase, rain for northern ireland coming into south west scotland, wales, and the south—west of england. eastern areas still generally dry, but after that cold start, it'll only be around seven celsius in north east scotland. most of the rain over the weekend will actually be on saturday night. and then, as we head into the early part of next week, it looks like it could be a bit drier, and it should stay on the mild side.

live from london. this is bbc news. tiktok warns a ban of the app in the us would cost american businesses billions and thousands of jobs.

the uk government has unveiled a new definition of extremism, to tackle what it says is an increased threat by some groups. and the un is evacuating non—essential staff from haiti as gangs continue to control much of the country. hello, i'm sally bundock. a very warm welcome to the programme. we start in the us and the war or words errupting over the future of tiktok in the worlds biggest economy. the boss of the chinese—owned social media giant has warned that any ban on the platform in america would cost small businesses billions of dollars. on wednesday, the house of representatives passed a bill which, if approved by the senate and president biden, could force tiktok�*s owners either to sell up — or be barred from the us.