birmingham, the biggest council in europe, goes bust, but they are not the first

and they won't be the last. what does it mean for council tax payers in the city? and as concerns grow for the financial futures of dozens of other councils, is this more evidence of crumbling britain? we will speak to conservative and labour councillors and an expert on town halls�* growing financial woes. also tonight, hundreds of women can now take legal action against the makers of a contraceptive coil that women say have left them maimed and in constant pain. we will talk to the lawyer representing 200 patients and a woman who says she was forced to have a hysterectomy to get the coil out of her.

and the row between government and big tech which could mean that the message services millions of us rely on could stop working. and the government plans to tighten benefit rules to encourage more disabled people off benefits and into work. we will get a reaction from a charity. and do send us a message on whatsapp. are you in receipt of benefits and keen to work, or an employer hoping the planned changes might make it good evening. another council has gone bankrupt. this time it is labour run birmingham city council which serves a million people. if you are thinking this doesn't matter because you don't live in birmingham, there are a growing number of people who would argue it does, and that today's financial collapse as part of a wider and growing problem. birmingham's woes follow on from conservative led croydon council in south london declaring bankruptcy three times in two years, thurrock in essex, and a string of others including slough and woking. more are on the brink, including stoke—on—trent.

so, how does a council's bankruptcy affect those who live within its boundaries and how many more town halls could find themselves facing similar crises? we will be discussing all of this in a moment. first, here is joe. it has long been in the making but now how have birmingham city council's finances collapsed ? the city centre has recently been regenerated. it is the home of big business, like the uk hq of hsbc. it has had a commonwealth games and will soon benefit from hs2, but it cannot pay its bills. the home of black sabbath is having its own black tuesday. now there are two unique reasons for it. first, an enormous bill for equal pay claims. the labour council has already paid out £1.1 billion. it still has £760 million outstanding. and it says the cost of those pay claims is increasing at a rate of £5 million to £14 million per month. secondly the council's disastrous new it system. it was expected to cost £19 million. but after three years of delays it

could now cost up to £100 million. so what will today's announcement mean? now it is good for people who live in the area. in other areas receive central government commission is coming and take over the running of the council, they make sweeping cuts and redundancies, they sell off assets and at the same time see some areas having special permission for council tax to drop by as much as 10% so we don't know which of those things are going to happen in birmingham but it is a fair bet that more people in birmingham, none of the outcomes are positive. these section 114 notices, councils effectively declaring bankruptcy, were rare, but not any more. since 2018 we've seen them in english councils across the spectrum including thurrock, which had been investing in 53 solar farms, slough, northamptonshire, woking and croydon, three times in just two years. mismanagement may well be part of the problem but there is also the wider context of cuts.

13 years in which not only has the amount of funding going into local government changed and been reduced, by about a0%, so, most councils have seen their spending power drop by about one third, but not only has the amount of funding reduced, but the amount of funding reduced, but the way in which councils are funded has changed so this is a story we do not tell so often. councils have been made to be much more reliant on local income. council tax, been made to be much more reliant on local income. counciltax, business rates, charging for leisure services, entering into commercial activities, some of which we have seen go wrong. the government argues that it is up to councils to manage their finances responsibly and points out that they have given them extra cash this year and next. so where is the money coming from and how has that changed since 2010? well, the income comes from council tax and has steadily risen over the past decade. but at the same time the income from central government including retained business rates has fallen. you can see those bars tapering off.

although there was added funding during the pandemic. councils have, experts argue, faced a double whammy of less money and more demand for their services, especially adult social care, as the population ages. calls for reform are growing. some advocate better oversight, new tax—raising powers or just more hard cash. the leaders of kent and hampshire county councils, both solid, decent conservative leaders wrote look to the government is not so long ago saying that this cannot go on. i think that right across the board politically in local government, there is a sense that you cannot go on trying to deliver 100 then in then £120 worth of services with £80 or £90. local government in the uk's second city may be effectively bankrupt, but is this a tipping point nationwide? analysts estimate two dozen authorities could soon follow. those in westminster are notjust worrying

about what on earth has happened, but where in the country is next. we did ask the government for a spokesperson on this — they declined. we also asked for an interview with the labour leader of birmingham city council. they declined also. let's speak to alex yi, a conservative councillor in since 2015, and peter marland, labour leader of milton keynes council and chair of the local government association's resources board, and stuart hoddinott, senior researcher from the institute for government. welcome to all of you. alex, who and what is to blame? and, as you said in the opening statement, the council settled the equal pay settlement of 1.1 billion, 11 years ago, there was a cabinet report saying how to deal with it, labour cancelled his plans when it took control in 2012 and that was when the current leader during the labour cabinet, it has categorically been this labour administration that has,

for ten years, and instead, this labour administration that has, forten years, and instead, in action and local mismanagement that has created this second liability of 760 million, a decade of inaction thatis 760 million, a decade of inaction that is directly led to this and it is councillor cotton who is responsible.— is councillor cotton who is responsible. is councillor cotton who is resonsible. ., ., ., ., responsible. you have not mentioned the cut of 4096 _ responsible. you have not mentioned the cut of 4096 in _ responsible. you have not mentioned the cut of 4096 in government - responsible. you have not mentioned the cut of 4096 in government grants | the cut of 40% in government grants to local authorities between 2010, and 2020. , , to local authorities between 2010, and2020. , ., , and 2020. this is categorically nothina and 2020. this is categorically nothing to _ and 2020. this is categorically nothing to do _ and 2020. this is categorically nothing to do with _ and 2020. this is categorically nothing to do with budget - and 2020. this is categorically| nothing to do with budget cuts. these section 114 clearly says the situation is not due to funding cuts from the government and even a national labour party themselves wrote saying that the problems in birmingham are not due to funding cuts because crucially they had a plan, they cancelled it, they did nothing for ten years and overseeing this has been councillor coton. is it realistic to think that a 40% cut in central government grants would have nothing to do with the situation in birmingham? the problem in birmingham — situation in birmingham? the problem in birmingham has _ situation in birmingham? the problem in birmingham has been _ situation in birmingham? the problem in birmingham has been decades - situation in birmingham? the problem in birmingham has been decades in . in birmingham has been decades in

the making, not 5—10 years. it is a very— the making, not 5—10 years. it is a very big _ the making, not 5—10 years. it is a very big council with a huge expanse of services _ very big council with a huge expanse of services but on the other side the councils are facing huge financial— the councils are facing huge financial pressures. birmingham has taken _ financial pressures. birmingham has taken a _ financial pressures. birmingham has taken a huge cut in its budget, and most _ taken a huge cut in its budget, and most councils are now facing the fact of— most councils are now facing the fact of having to deal with, as your piece _ fact of having to deal with, as your piece said. — fact of having to deal with, as your piece said, huge demand wise and they have — piece said, huge demand wise and they have not got the money to fund it. they have not got the money to fund it lots _ they have not got the money to fund it lots of— they have not got the money to fund it. lots of councils are now on the precipice — it. lots of councils are now on the precipice of— it. lots of councils are now on the precipice of financial catastrophe. you are _ precipice of financial catastrophe. you are what is to blame?- precipice of financial catastrophe. you are what is to blame? there have been specific — you are what is to blame? there have been specific issues _ you are what is to blame? there have been specific issues in _ you are what is to blame? there have been specific issues in birmingham, l been specific issues in birmingham, the equal— been specific issues in birmingham, the equal pay— been specific issues in birmingham, the equal pay settlement _ been specific issues in birmingham, the equal pay settlement dating - been specific issues in birmingham, i the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 _ the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 but _ the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 but you — the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 but you cannot _ the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 but you cannot ignore - the equal pay settlement dating back to 2012 but you cannot ignore the - to 2012 but you cannot ignore the context _ to 2012 but you cannot ignore the context in — to 2012 but you cannot ignore the context in which _ to 2012 but you cannot ignore the context in which these _ to 2012 but you cannot ignore the context in which these problemsl context in which these problems arise, _ context in which these problems arise, the — context in which these problems arise, the duchess— context in which these problems arise, the duchess of— context in which these problems arise, the duchess of grant - context in which these problems i arise, the duchess of grant funding from central— arise, the duchess of grant funding from central government, - arise, the duchess of grant funding i from central government, increased reliance _ from central government, increased reliance on — from central government, increased reliance on council— from central government, increased reliance on council tax _ from central government, increased reliance on council tax funding - from central government, increased reliance on council tax funding to i reliance on council tax funding to meet _ reliance on council tax funding to meet locci— reliance on council tax funding to meet local authority _ reliance on council tax funding to meet local authority obligations. | meet local authority obligations. the council _ meet local authority obligations. the council itself, _ meet local authority obligations. the council itself, and _ meet local authority obligations. the council itself, and we - meet local authority obligations. the council itself, and we would | the council itself, and we would have liked to speak to the leader but he was not available, has blamed this huge equal pay bill and the

implementation of the new it system which was meant to cost 19 million and could end up costing 100 million. it appears that they are blaming everybody but themselves. if you put this into context we talk about _ you put this into context we talk about over — you put this into context we talk about over a decade of austerity, and had — about over a decade of austerity, and had this impact been ten years a-o, and had this impact been ten years ago. they— and had this impact been ten years ago, they might have been able to absorb _ ago, they might have been able to absorb back hit with reserves and the ability— absorb back hit with reserves and the ability to take a bit more council— the ability to take a bit more council tax, the ability to take a bit more counciltax, people the ability to take a bit more council tax, people forget that council — council tax, people forget that council tax, people forget that council tax is capped at 2% for locat— council tax is capped at 2% for local authority so it is a bit of one _ local authority so it is a bit of one and _ local authority so it is a bit of one and the other and these issues have been— one and the other and these issues have been decades in the making. the labour— have been decades in the making. the labour party— have been decades in the making. the labour party have been very clear on this. labour party have been very clear on this they— labour party have been very clear on this. they replaced the leader of the council not more than six months a-o the council not more than six months ago but _ the council not more than six months ago but also, — the council not more than six months ago but also, the fact that councils are on— ago but also, the fact that councils are on the — ago but also, the fact that councils are on the precipice. i think that into the — are on the precipice. i think that into the broader picture, if other councils— into the broader picture, if other councils take big hits and they are looking _ councils take big hits and they are looking at— councils take big hits and they are looking at equal pay claims or a planning — looking at equal pay claims or a planning appeal gone wrong, or an

increase _ planning appeal gone wrong, or an increase in— planning appeal gone wrong, or an increase in temporary accommodation which _ increase in temporary accommodation which means millions on their budget, — which means millions on their budget, councils do not have the reserves — budget, councils do not have the reserves or— budget, councils do not have the reserves or the money to absorb those _ reserves or the money to absorb those costs any more as they may have _ those costs any more as they may have done — those costs any more as they may have done ten years ago. mex those costs any more as they may have done ten years ago. alex yip, what will the _ have done ten years ago. alex yip, what will the council _ have done ten years ago. alex yip, what will the council have - have done ten years ago. alex yip, what will the council have to - have done ten years ago. alex yip, what will the council have to stop l what will the council have to stop doing for local people? in what will the council have to stop doing for local people?— what will the council have to stop doing for local people? in terms of this bein: doing for local people? in terms of this being a _ doing for local people? in terms of this being a link _ doing for local people? in terms of this being a link to _ doing for local people? in terms of this being a link to the _ doing for local people? in terms of this being a link to the cuts - doing for local people? in terms of this being a link to the cuts from . this being a link to the cuts from central government for councils it is a separate issue. it is because of the labour mismanagement for ten years. it is there an action that has caused this equal pay situation to carry on for a second time, that is a crucial distinction. secondly in terms of the wider financial mismanagement if you get into talking about putting things into context, you're right about the it system. there are appalling situations within council were the finances have been utterly mismanaged for years and to your question, you would ask what the council would have to do, services

are going to have to be cut, we will see an appalling situation which will disproportionately affect the most vulnerable within our city and i am proud to represent the city, which is now going to be plunged into incredible uncertainty, the largest authority in europe, and residents trust the council for their futures, residents trust the council for theirfutures, and everyone is going to have to step in. the government should step in to help fix labour's and competence but ultimately it is every taxpayer in the country that will be bailing out birmingham labour, here.— will be bailing out birmingham labour, here. ~ , ., ., , ., labour, here. why have conservative led kent and — labour, here. why have conservative led kent and hampshire _ labour, here. why have conservative led kent and hampshire written - labour, here. why have conservative led kent and hampshire written to i led kent and hampshire written to the government saying that the situation is unsustainable? this is a se arate situation is unsustainable? this is a separate situation, _ situation is unsustainable? this is a separate situation, no _ situation is unsustainable? this is a separate situation, no other- a separate situation, no other counsel has had to deal with the equal pay situation twice. that may or may not — equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be _ equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be right _ equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be right but _ equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be right but i _ equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be right but i hear- equal pay situation twice. that may or may not be right but i hear what| or may not be right but i hear what you are saying, there are conservative run councils which we have seen some conservative run council is going bankrupt as well but two leaders have written to the

government saying this is unsustainable.— government saying this is unsustainable. , ., unsustainable. terms of the funding cuts to the councils _ unsustainable. terms of the funding cuts to the councils that _ unsustainable. terms of the funding cuts to the councils that is _ unsustainable. terms of the funding cuts to the councils that is a - cuts to the councils that is a separate issue, we are talking about what has caused this equal pay situation. ., , what has caused this equal pay situation. . , ., , situation. that is a different issue, situation. that is a different issue. i'm _ situation. that is a different issue, i'm asking _ situation. that is a different issue, i'm asking you - situation. that is a different issue, i'm asking you about| situation. that is a different - issue, i'm asking you about the broader issue. we issue, i'm asking you about the broader issue.— issue, i'm asking you about the broader issue. we can talk about accountability _ broader issue. we can talk about accountability and _ broader issue. we can talk about accountability and councillor - broader issue. we can talk about | accountability and councillor coton who you mentioned. you accountability and councillor coton who you mentioned.— accountability and councillor coton who you mentioned. you keep ignoring the questions — who you mentioned. you keep ignoring the questions i'm _ who you mentioned. you keep ignoring the questions i'm asking. _ who you mentioned. you keep ignoring the questions i'm asking. i _ who you mentioned. you keep ignoring the questions i'm asking. i feel- the questions i'm asking. ifeel like i have asked this a number of times now. what about the fact that leaders of conservative run councils like kent and hampshire are writing to a conservative government to say that we cannot carry on like this? are clashing to issues together. i do not think that you can separate the two _ do not think that you can separate the two issues. you do not think that you can separate the two issues.— do not think that you can separate the two issues. you absolutely can. if there the two issues. you absolutely can. if there are — the two issues. you absolutely can. if there are more _ the two issues. you absolutely can. if there are more funding _ the two issues. you absolutely can. if there are more funding cuts... i if there are more funding cuts... there is no point both in you speaking at the same time. between 2000, and 2018 — speaking at the same time. between 2000, and 2018 there _ speaking at the same time. between

2000, and 2018 there was _ speaking at the same time. between 2000, and 2018 there was one - speaking at the same time. between l 2000, and 2018 there was one section 114 2000, and 2018 there was one section "4 notice _ 2000, and 2018 there was one section 114 notice and since 2018 there have been ten _ 114 notice and since 2018 there have been ten and the reality is, like in a recession— been ten and the reality is, like in a recession the worst manager councils— a recession the worst manager councils will go first so northampton had a 114 notice, northampton, thurrock, slough, and that you _ northampton, thurrock, slough, and that you are — northampton, thurrock, slough, and that you are getting more and more towards _ that you are getting more and more towards the core of councils and it is not _ towards the core of councils and it is not always bad management. councits— is not always bad management. councils may have made mistakes, birmingham may have made mistakes, the labour— birmingham may have made mistakes, the labour party have been clear on that, _ the labour party have been clear on that, but— the labour party have been clear on that, but it — the labour party have been clear on that, but it is the ability of councils— that, but it is the ability of councils to absorb the shocks, where the council _ councils to absorb the shocks, where the council coffers are threadbare. are they, — the council coffers are threadbare. are they, what about the reserves, are there billions in reserves? there are reserves, there is an ongoing — there are reserves, there is an ongoing debate _ there are reserves, there is an ongoing debate about - there are reserves, there is an ongoing debate about the - there are reserves, there is an. ongoing debate about the levels there are reserves, there is an - ongoing debate about the levels of reserves _ ongoing debate about the levels of reserves available _ ongoing debate about the levels of reserves available to _ ongoing debate about the levels of reserves available to deal- ongoing debate about the levels of reserves available to deal with - reserves available to deal with these — reserves available to deal with these costs _ reserves available to deal with these costs. the _ reserves available to deal with these costs. the government. reserves available to deal with - these costs. the government claimed that during _ these costs. the government claimed that during covid _ these costs. the government claimed that during covid the _ these costs. the government claimed that during covid the reserves - that during covid the reserves increased _ that during covid the reserves increased by— that during covid the reserves increased by some _ that during covid the reserves increased by some relate - that during covid the reserves increased by some relate to l that during covid the reserves - increased by some relate to income lost during — increased by some relate to income lost during the _ increased by some relate to income lost during the pandemic— increased by some relate to income lost during the pandemic which - increased by some relate to income lost during the pandemic which wasi lost during the pandemic which was the highest — lost during the pandemic which was the highest for— lost during the pandemic which was the highest for a _ lost during the pandemic which was the highest fora number— lost during the pandemic which was the highest for a number of- lost during the pandemic which was the highest for a number of years. i the highest for a number of years. the other— the highest for a number of years. the other thing _ the highest for a number of years. the other thing about _

the highest for a number of years. the other thing about reserves, i the other thing about reserves, increases — the other thing about reserves, increases in _ the other thing about reserves, increases in costs _ the other thing about reserves, increases in costs for— the other thing about reserves, increases in costs for things i the other thing about reserves, | increases in costs for things like adult _ increases in costs for things like adult social— increases in costs for things like adult social care _ increases in costs for things like adult social care are _ increases in costs for things like adult social care are ongoing i increases in costs for things like i adult social care are ongoing costs and reserves — adult social care are ongoing costs and reserves are _ adult social care are ongoing costs and reserves are one—off - adult social care are ongoing costs and reserves are one—off pots i adult social care are ongoing costs and reserves are one—off pots of. and reserves are one—off pots of money— and reserves are one—off pots of money that— and reserves are one—off pots of money that can _ and reserves are one—off pots of money that can be _ and reserves are one—off pots of money that can be drawn - and reserves are one—off pots of money that can be drawn on i and reserves are one—off pots of money that can be drawn on and cannot— money that can be drawn on and cannot be — money that can be drawn on and cannot be used _ money that can be drawn on and cannot be used again _ money that can be drawn on and cannot be used again so - money that can be drawn on and cannot be used again so relyingl money that can be drawn on and . cannot be used again so relying on reserves _ cannot be used again so relying on reserves to— cannot be used again so relying on reserves to fund _ cannot be used again so relying on reserves to fund ongoing - cannot be used again so relying on reserves to fund ongoing costs i cannot be used again so relying on reserves to fund ongoing costs is i reserves to fund ongoing costs is not a _ reserves to fund ongoing costs is not a smart— reserves to fund ongoing costs is not a smart move _ reserves to fund ongoing costs is not a smart move by— reserves to fund ongoing costs is not a smart move by local- not a smart move by local authorities. _ not a smart move by local authorities.— not a smart move by local authorities. , , . ., , , , authorities. reserves are assets that the council _ authorities. reserves are assets that the council had. _ authorities. reserves are assets that the council had. a - authorities. reserves are assets that the council had. a few i authorities. reserves are assets| that the council had. a few years ago birmingham city council sold the nec for 307 million, it was resold three years later for £800 million and this showed one example of how the reserves have been used to pay off the previous equal pay situation but also shows use financial mismanagement which is separate from the cuts from central government for councils, and for example the commonwealth games, £560 million was paid from athletes' village that did not house a single athlete and talking about the it system, it was by times ever spent, it is financial mismanagement, separate from the

equal pay situation which is separate from the wider cuts... it is all in context. separate from the wider cuts. .. it is all in context.— is all in context. should central government — is all in context. should central government step _ is all in context. should central government step in _ is all in context. should central government step in to - is all in context. should central government step in to help i government step in to help birmingham?— government step in to help birmingham? government step in to help birminuham? ., , , , birmingham? the government must step in to fix labour— birmingham? the government must step in to fix labour incompetence _ birmingham? the government must step in to fix labour incompetence and - in to fix labour incompetence and unfortunately it will be every taxpayer in the country that will be bailing out birmingham labour here. council tax up 10%, the most vulnerable people in the city not protected by ring fencing or protective services will be affected and ifearfor the protective services will be affected and i fear for the future of the city for many years to come. how many other councils could be affected in the coming months and years? it’s affected in the coming months and ears? �*, , affected in the coming months and ears? ., affected in the coming months and ears? �*, , .,, affected in the coming months and ears? �*, ., years? it's possible to put an exact number of — years? it's possible to put an exact number of the _ years? it's possible to put an exact number of the number _ years? it's possible to put an exact number of the number of - years? it's possible to put an exact number of the number of councils. years? it's possible to put an exact. number of the number of councils at risk. number of the number of councils at risk we _ number of the number of councils at risk we have — number of the number of councils at risk. we have seen _ number of the number of councils at risk. we have seen the _ number of the number of councils at risk. we have seen the section- number of the number of councils at risk. we have seen the section for. risk. we have seen the section for notices— risk. we have seen the section for notices in— risk. we have seen the section for notices in recent _ risk. we have seen the section for notices in recent years, _ risk. we have seen the section for notices in recent years, places i risk. we have seen the section for| notices in recent years, places like croydon. _ notices in recent years, places like croydon. slough. _ notices in recent years, places like croydon, slough, woking, - notices in recent years, places like i croydon, slough, woking, thurrock, they have _ croydon, slough, woking, thurrock, they have often _ croydon, slough, woking, thurrock, they have often been _ croydon, slough, woking, thurrock, they have often been because - croydon, slough, woking, thurrock, they have often been because of- they have often been because of large _ they have often been because of large speculative _ they have often been because of large speculative investments. they have often been because of. large speculative investments that have gone — large speculative investments that have gone wrong, _ large speculative investments that have gone wrong, that _ large speculative investments that have gone wrong, that haven't- have gone wrong, that haven't returned — have gone wrong, that haven't returned the _ have gone wrong, that haven't returned the kind _ have gone wrong, that haven't returned the kind of _ have gone wrong, that haven't returned the kind of money i have gone wrong, that haven't.

returned the kind of money they hoped _ returned the kind of money they hoped they— returned the kind of money they hoped they would _ returned the kind of money they hoped they would return. - returned the kind of money they hoped they would return. like i returned the kind of money they hoped they would return.- hoped they would return. like a solar farm _ hoped they would return. like a solar farm or — hoped they would return. like a solar farm or retail _ hoped they would return. like a solar farm or retail park? i hoped they would return. like a l solar farm or retail park? exactly. the worrying _ solar farm or retail park? exactly. the worrying thing _ solar farm or retail park? exactly. the worrying thing is _ solar farm or retail park? exactly. the worrying thing is you - solar farm or retail park? exactly. the worrying thing is you are i the worrying thing is you are hearing — the worrying thing is you are hearing worrying _ the worrying thing is you are hearing worrying noises i the worrying thing is you are i hearing worrying noises from councils _ hearing worrying noises from councils who _ hearing worrying noises from councils who have _ hearing worrying noises from councils who have salami i hearing worrying noises from. councils who have salami slice services — councils who have salami slice services so _ councils who have salami slice services so far— councils who have salami slice services so far there _ councils who have salami slice services so far there is - councils who have salami slice. services so far there is nowhere else _ services so far there is nowhere else to — services so far there is nowhere else to go — services so far there is nowhere else to go other— services so far there is nowhere else to go other than _ services so far there is nowhere else to go other than to - services so far there is nowhere else to go other than to issue i services so far there is nowhere i else to go other than to issue the section— else to go other than to issue the section 114— else to go other than to issue the section 114 notice _ else to go other than to issue the section 114 notice or— else to go other than to issue the section 114 notice or otherwise i else to go other than to issue the l section 114 notice or otherwise they breach— section 114 notice or otherwise they breach their — section 114 notice or otherwise they breach their statutory— section 114 notice or otherwise they breach their statutory services. i section 114 notice or otherwise they breach their statutory services. at l breach their statutory services. four centimetre long breach their statutory services.- four centimetre long contraceptive coil implanted in hundreds of women has according to them cause them debilitating pain and in some cases they say wrecked their lives. now 200 women in uk who claim they were left in pain after having it fitted can now take group legal action through the courts against its manufacturer. the esure coil is made by a german manufacturer, we invited them on the programme but they declined. they said the highest

priority was the effectiveness and safety of their products and they have great sympathy with anyone who has experienced health problems from anyone who has used their products. they will continue to defend themselves from claims vigorously. esure was withdrawn from sale in 2017 but the uk medicines regulator says there is no risk to safety. we can talk now to a lawyer representing the 200 women, and a woman who had the coil fitted in 2012. welcome to both of you. what effect did the coil have in your

body? effect did the coil have in your bod ? .., �* effect did the coil have in your bod ? �* , ., , body? i can't begin to list the effect it had, for _ body? i can't begin to list the effect it had, for many years. i body? i can't begin to list the i effect it had, for many years. i had heavy periods, low iron. the self—confident some of the day to day being able to manage myself as a professional, as a mother, to run a household, itjust became very difficult. daily heavy periods, the hormonal changes, to manage that day to day, it was very difficult. in to day, it was very difficult. in your mind there was no other explanation apart from the contraceptive coil? mat explanation apart from the contraceptive coil?- explanation apart from the contraceptive coil? explanation apart from the contrace tive coil? ., ., , contraceptive coil? not in the early ears, but contraceptive coil? not in the early years. but the _ contraceptive coil? not in the early years, but the later _ contraceptive coil? not in the early years, but the later time _ contraceptive coil? not in the early years, but the later time when - contraceptive coil? not in the early years, but the later time when the | years, but the later time when the coil was fitted, that was in 2012 and eventually i had a hysterectomy last year in 22. for the first part i understood when you first get a contraceptive device fitted it takes time for it to settle so i thought, 0k, time for it to settle so i thought, ok, maybe it'sjust taking time for it to settle so i thought, ok, maybe it's just taking time to settle and then it could be a plethora of other things. i went back to my gp many times and always brought it back too, could it be the esure. no, it couldn't be. so it was quite a bit down the line before it was understood this could be the cause of the pain i was in. you had

an x-ray. — cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray. and _ cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray, and what _ cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray, and what did _ cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray, and what did it _ cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray, and what did it show? i cause of the pain i was in. you had an x-ray, and what did it show? it| an x—ray, and what did it show? it showed it had moved. one was in position on the other had moved and it basically made a hole and it was lodged in my womb. find it basically made a hole and it was lodged in my womb.— lodged in my womb. and it is summed _ lodged in my womb. and it is summed to _ lodged in my womb. and it is supposed to be _ lodged in my womb. and it is supposed to be in _ lodged in my womb. and it is supposed to be in your - lodged in my womb. and it is i supposed to be in your fallopian supposed to be in yourfallopian tubes. supposed to be in your fallopian tubes. , ., ., ., , tubes. yes, it had migrated. it was a real worry _ tubes. yes, it had migrated. it was a real worry and — tubes. yes, it had migrated. it was a real worry and the _ tubes. yes, it had migrated. it was a real worry and the constant - tubes. yes, it had migrated. it was| a real worry and the constant trying to navigate the nhs system to try and get referred and for the situation to be taken seriously. to aet situation to be taken seriously. to get people to believe you. absolutely. it is not on everyone�*s for front, absolutely. it is not on everyone�*s forfront, and i understand that, because that's what i thought as well, until i saw the x—ray and even thenit well, until i saw the x—ray and even then it was a difficultjourney to get to that x—ray in the first place. but when you see it in black and white literally, it is difficult to dispute. and white literally, it is difficult to disme— and white literally, it is difficult to disute. ~ . ' . ., , to dispute. what effect more widely did this have _ to dispute. what effect more widely did this have on _ to dispute. what effect more widely did this have on your _ to dispute. what effect more widely did this have on your life, _ did this have on your life, relationships, jobs and so on? so relationships, jobs and so on? sr much for that i hold relationships, jobs and so on? s;rs much for that i hold quite a senior position. before i had the

hysterectomy itjust became very difficult because you are constantly bleeding, very heavily bleeding. the hormonal changes that come with that, you are dealing with that. and you are dealing with the challenges you are dealing with the challenges you have as an executive. and then i was a mother and a wife. it is just very difficult to try and manage that. and the chronic pain you get with that. ., , ., .. , ., with that. could you carry on working? — with that. could you carry on working? i — with that. could you carry on working? i could, _ with that. could you carry on working? i could, but- with that. could you carry on working? i could, but there. with that. could you carry on i working? i could, but there was a eriod working? i could, but there was a period when _ working? i could, but there was a period when i _ working? i could, but there was a period when i couldn't _ working? i could, but there was a period when i couldn't work i working? i could, but there was a i period when i couldn't work because it was far too much. far too much pain and it was very difficult to maintain my role.— pain and it was very difficult to maintain m role. ~ ., ., maintain my role. what would you say was our maintain my role. what would you say was your lowest _ maintain my role. what would you say was your lowest point? _ maintain my role. what would you say was your lowest point? gosh, - maintain my role. what would you say was your lowest point? gosh, it i maintain my role. what would you say was your lowest point? gosh, it came| was your lowest point? gosh, it came about a year— was your lowest point? gosh, it came about a year before _ was your lowest point? gosh, it came about a year before covid. _ was your lowest point? gosh, it came about a year before covid. i _ about a year before covid. i thought, i can't continue like this. i woke up one morning and it was like a blood to mexico. it was awful. i thought,

like a blood to mexico. it was awful. ithought, this like a blood to mexico. it was awful. i thought, this is my everyday life. it's really difficult to talk about in a work environment because women are used to it, everyone has periods and it's a normalthing. but everyone has periods and it's a normal thing. but for me it wasn't normal and it was really difficult to get the understanding, the pain that i'm having, it's all the time. and it's almost everyday. it's so difficult to explain to someone that goes through that, even though it's may be a woman who you are explaining it to, just that their journey is more of a regular journey. minus because of the esure treatment. so yes, it had a tremendous impact on my life. lisa, sadia is not — tremendous impact on my life. lisa, sadia is not part _ tremendous impact on my life. lisa, sadia is not part of the _ tremendous impact on my life. lisa, sadia is not part of the group action, but is this typical of the women you are representing? fiddling action, but is this typical of the women you are representing? sadly it is ical of women you are representing? sadly it is typical of the _ women you are representing? sadly it is typical of the women _ women you are representing? sadly it is typical of the women we _ women you are representing? sadly it is typical of the women we are - is typical of the women we are representing. sadia's story is a classic— representing. sadia's story is a classic story of the symptoms we are seeing _ classic story of the symptoms we are seeing our— classic story of the symptoms we are seeing our clients complain of in terms _ seeing our clients complain of in terms of— seeing our clients complain of in terms of chronic pain, abnormal

bleeding. — terms of chronic pain, abnormal bleeding, migration, perforation, and like _ bleeding, migration, perforation, and like sadia, our women are all of child—bearing age. that's the reason they were _ child—bearing age. that's the reason they were looking for a simple, noninvasive, nonsurgical procedure. this was— noninvasive, nonsurgical procedure. this was advertised as a straightforward simple procedure that could be done in your lunch hour, _ that could be done in your lunch hour, in— that could be done in your lunch hour, in 15— that could be done in your lunch hour, in 15 minutes, and you would be hour, in15 minutes, and you would be back— hour, in15 minutes, and you would be back in— hour, in 15 minutes, and you would be back in work. but sadly the reality— be back in work. but sadly the reality has been very difficult. there — reality has been very difficult. there might be some people watching who can't get their heads around the kind of pain you are feeling and the women you are representing. some might think it is just like a heavy period. what would you say to them? i would say that is not the experience at all. sadia has described constant abnormal bleeding. you mention something similar— bleeding. you mention something similar to — bleeding. you mention something similar to a haemorrhage, a really heavy— similar to a haemorrhage, a really heavy and — similar to a haemorrhage, a really heavy and unusual bleeding that has a massive _ heavy and unusual bleeding that has a massive impact on someone being able to— a massive impact on someone being able to live — a massive impact on someone being able to live their daily life and go about— able to live their daily life and go about their daily business. | about their daily business. i mentioned the statement from the

company, they have sympathy for anyone who has experienced health problems and their highest priority is safety and effectiveness and they will defend themselves from the accusations vigorously. what is your argument for the company. we have exert argument for the company. we have expert evidence. _ argument for the company. we have expert evidence. there _ argument for the company. we have expert evidence. there are - argument for the company. we have expert evidence. there are studies. | expert evidence. there are studies. a study— expert evidence. there are studies. a study in— expert evidence. there are studies. a study in the bmj was published in 2015 and _ a study in the bmj was published in 2015 and called into question the efficacy— 2015 and called into question the efficacy and safety of the device. the fda — efficacy and safety of the device. the fda in — efficacy and safety of the device. the fda in america called into question— the fda in america called into question and also nice amended their guidelines— question and also nice amended their guidelines in relation to recommending the product and ultimately was withdrawn from the market _ ultimately was withdrawn from the market in — ultimately was withdrawn from the market in 2017 by bayer. how much compensation _ market in 2017 by bayer. how much compensation are _ market in 2017 by bayer. how much compensation are you _ market in 2017 by bayer. how much compensation are you aiming i market in 2017 by bayer. how much compensation are you aiming to i market in 2017 by bayer. how much i compensation are you aiming to win? we estimate at the moment that compensation will exceed around £10 million _ compensation will exceed around £10 million based on the number of clients — million based on the number of clients we — million based on the number of clients we have at the moment. in

the us bayer has had to pay out $1.6 billion to resolve claims from nearly 39,000 women but have admitted no wrongdoing or liability. sadia, you can'tjoin this group action. why is that? sadia, you can't join this group action. why is that?— sadia, you can't join this group action. why is that? that's correct. because i understand _ action. why is that? that's correct. because i understand there - action. why is that? that's correct. because i understand there is- action. why is that? that's correct. because i understand there is a i because i understand there is a statute of limitations based on the date of manufacture of the actual device, not when it was put inside me. if it went from when it was the surgery put in, i would be within that period, but because it's from the date of manufacture, i am unfortunately outside that period. how do you feel about that? finger how do you feel about that? anger that i have gone _ how do you feel about that? anger that i have gone through _ how do you feel about that? anger that i have gone through this, i how do you feel about that? ire that i have gone through this, and so many other women i know are going through this. and the claim aside, it is that voice. you have 200 people who have come forward. it's amazing and it should never have happened, but what about everyone else? those in my situation that are

unable to put their voice forward? this is a mechanism to put their voice forward. there will be other women out there watching this programme, and if you have period pain and you have this device, seek medical intervention. go to your doctor and persist. this is not normal and what you are going through is absolutely not normal and not acceptable. aha, through is absolutely not normal and not acceptable.— not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would _ not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would like _ not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would like to _ not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would like to say _ not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would like to say i - not acceptable. a quick final word, lisa? i would like to say i am i lisa? i would like to say i am eruall lisa? i would like to say i am equally frustrated _ lisa? i would like to say i am equally frustrated with i lisa? i would like to say i am equally frustrated with the i lisa? i would like to say i am | equally frustrated with the law lisa? i would like to say i am i equally frustrated with the law in this regard in terms of the statutory limitation that might prevent — statutory limitation that might prevent women from bringing a claim. it is equally _ prevent women from bringing a claim. it is equally frustrating that for years— it is equally frustrating that for years and years women are raising concerns— years and years women are raising concerns about devices, and this is a common— concerns about devices, and this is a common theme with women's health issues, _ a common theme with women's health issues, that— a common theme with women's health issues, that initially their concerns are dismissed and put down to other— concerns are dismissed and put down to other health related issues. by the time — to other health related issues. by the time women are listened to it is too late _ the time women are listened to it is too late in— the time women are listened to it is too late in many cases. i would like too late in many cases. i would like to see _ too late in many cases. i would like to see the — too late in many cases. i would like to see the law changed in that regard — to see the law changed in that reaard. . ~' ,. to see the law changed in that reaard. ., «s y., to see the law changed in that reaard. . ~' , to see the law changed in that

reaard. ., , . ~ regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, regard. thank you both very much. a reminder. the _ regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, the esure _ regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, the esure coil— regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, the esure coil is _ regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, the esure coil is made i regard. thank you both very much. a reminder, the esure coil is made by. reminder, the esure coil is made by a german factory called bayer. it denies causing harm and says it will defend itself against claims. it says all products have risk but that i tell a tea of scientific evidence on esure demonstrates the benefit risk profile is positive. the online safety bill is a mammoth piece of legislation. touted as helping make the uk the safest place in the world to be online, it covers everything from age checks to scam adverts and cyber—flashing. but ahead of the bill's third reading in the house of lords tomorrow, there is a row brewing over a close intended to allow child sexual exploitation and abuse material to be identified and restricted on private messaging services. end—to—end encryption services like whatsapp, apple's imessage and signal have raised concerns about the impact on privacy this could have, suggesting they would prefer to be blocked from operating in the uk rather than comply. if that happened, the messaging services millions of us rely on would

simply stop working. here's kate. here in cambridge, the internet watch foundation is one of the only places in europe allowed to proactively search for child abuse content in an effort to stop it being shared online. something they argue is a growing problem. we are seeing year on year, hundreds of thousands of urls on the open web containing many, many, many more images. we have a database with more than 2 million unique images of children and really we are just finding more and more. the online safety bill, which receives its third reading in the house of lords tomorrow, contains something they hope will help. it says ofcom can ask tech companies to use accredited technology to identify this material, whether it's communicated publicly or privately. for the internet watch foundation, this mention of private communication is welcome. we'll see interactions with children where they will be encouraged

to move to private messaging platforms so that they can then continue, and it's almost you're doing the less illegal content on the open web, so reallyjust doesn't make sense to say we'll only remove this from the public space. but this idea of someone else scanning private messages has met with a huge backlash from companies that deal with end—to—end encryption. and that's when no one but the sender and receiver can access the content of a message. whatsapp or apple imessage for example know who you have sent a message to and when but they don't know what's in it. and these companies have said they'd rather be banned from the uk than comply with the new bill and in their eyes compromise privacy. the technologies that are being proposed fundamentally undermine the right to digital privacy. they undermine end—to—end encryption, which is the sole technology we have to provide private communications again in a world that is surveilled almost, you know, at almost every step, every location.

security researchers have also raised concerns. more than 70 signed an open letter to say the bill undermines privacy guarantees. this would be the equivalent of us all moving around, having a camera attached to ourselves, ok? and just the idea that on the off chance that someone may do something wrong, constantly monitoring everything they are doing, goes against fundamental human rights. now, exactly what accredited technology can be used hasn't been defined, but there have been several different suggestions. most don't involve breaking the encryption itself but rather scanning messages before they are sent either using ai or something called hashing. hashing is where a programme looks at an image and creates a unique code based on what it looks like. as users send pictures it can compare those codes to a database of known abuse images. if the code matches, the picture will be blocked. hashing is already used as part of police investigations.

there is no reading of messages, there is no scanning photos. it's just comparing numbers. and actually that is not, i believe, impinging on anyone's privacy. and there's no reason it should be. but scanning rather than breaking the encryption is not enough for everyone. we cannot play semantic games. if i stand outside your front door with a camera and photograph the inside of your house, let's say i didn't break in, i didn't surveil your house because i didn't cross the threshold, we all know that that is specious and that's not worth our time as an argument. the same thing is true here. if you are using hashing, someone can determine what's in the hashing algorithm. they can change the hashing algorithm to look for content they want to see. apple, which attempted to create its own hashing system to locate child abuse content, released a letter last week stating they'd abandoned the programme because it was not practically possible to implement without ultimately imperilling the security and privacy of their users. now, hashing is not the only

idea to protect privacy. the government funded five prototype solutions to this problem and argue it proves technology can be used. but in every case, scientists from the national research centre on privacy, harm reduction and adversarial influence online — refrain — found the confidentiality of messages sent via end—to—end encryption could not be guaranteed. the net result of that is the uk will, you know, seriously risks losing its position as one of the kind of leading places for security and privacy, and the government's own goal for the uk to be the most secure place to do business. back in cambridge, dan sexton finds some concern about the worst possibilities to be an exaggeration. i don't know why the companies that are making this, this the biggest issue they face. is we are saying can you proactively stop child sexual abuse material on your platforms. and they will say, no, we would rather leave the country can do that.

—— the country than do that. everyone we spoke to agreed more needed to be done to tackle child abuse material online. but how that's done, what powers are allowed, there there are deep divisions. a government spokesperson said, "the online safety bill will make "the uk the safest place in the world to be online. "we have made clear that companies should only implement end—to—end "encryption if they can simultaneously prevent abhorrent child sexual abuse on their platforms." what might happen tomorrow? like i asked about the possibility of off ramps and ways to avoid this clash and some people said more funding for child support services but nobody suggested a compromise on this fundamental disagreement on what should be allowed on end—to—end encryption services. so these camps are entrenched. any access routes being used by bad are entrenched. any access routes being used by had access, they say look at the recent data breach in the psni for example, even when security type things can go wrong

and we cannot take that risk with mass surveillance. opponents say the technology is being trusted bylaw enforcement and they trust this will not be used to look at anything other than mirrin abuse images in future. because the government is backing this it looks like this bill and the clause will pass its third reading tomorrow. if it is passed into law what sort of signal would come up with really leave the country? come up with really leave the count ? ,, ., ., , country? signal say that they will not throw toys — country? signal say that they will not throw toys out _ country? signal say that they will not throw toys out of _ country? signal say that they will not throw toys out of the - country? signal say that they will not throw toys out of the pram i country? signal say that they willj not throw toys out of the pram to make a point, they will be here in the uk until they are faced with that choice of staying and in their eyes betraying their privacy principles or leaving and in that case they will choose to leave. whatsapp is said to have been blocked by countries and in china and qatar, and what were other governments asked them to search for if they agree to this, but other companies looking at that decision between staying and leaving, if this

legislation is passed then you will need more to say what we mean by accrediting technology, how's it going to be used? so the crossroads for mps discussing policy is approaching, but we are not at that crossroads yet.— approaching, but we are not at that crossroads yet. thank you very much, kate. there are a record 2.5 million people in the uk currently not working because they are long—term sick. a million more people are out of work and in receipt of benefits compared to before the pandemic. this is at a time when the country is crying out for staff in care, hospitality, construction. there are over a million job vacancies. today the work and pensions secretary mel stride said he wanted to reform what are called work capability assessments, whichjudge whether someone is fit enough for employment. one proposed change will see assessors asked to take more account of working from home possibilities for people with disabilities. but some in receipt of such benefits fear these reforms will make it much harder to claim them. ben is here.

what problem is the government trying to solve here? it is three problems. an individual welfare problem, an economic problem and a public finances problem. they are all related and they have all worsened since the pandemic. here is the number of people who are inactive due ill—health, 2.5 million. and you can see how the number shot up after the pandemic. it is up 450,000 since then. and this is at a time when we still have many vacancies in our labour market, more thani million. so you can see why that is an economic problem. and that is contributing to a public finances problem. most of those people who are inactive because they are long—term sick will be claiming some form of benefit and support payments. here's the number of people on incapacity benefits as a share of the working age population. it isjust under 8%, a record high. the taxpayer bill for all of this is £26 billion a year,

£6 billion more thanjust three years ago. and that brings us to the third problem, the welfare of the individuals involved. the work and pensions secretary mel stride argues that there are lots of working age people who are out of the workforce who are effectively being discouraged from joining it by the way sickness and disability benefits system works, and the government belief is that by reforming the system, they will help get many of these people back to work, which would be good for them individually and the wider country. will this particular reform deliver what it aims to deliver? what we got today was only a consultation on reforming work capability assessments, something that actually mel stride wants to scrap in any case, in due course, as part of the much bigger overhaul of the welfare system scheduled for after the next election. experts i've spoken to think there is some merit in that bigger vision of reform and agree

that there are elements of the current welfare system that are distorting. and discouraging. but what they also warn is that is a danger the reforms are too loaded in the direction of sanctions and threats rather than empowerment and encouragement. stick rather than carrot, if you like. and they say history suggests that stick just doesn't work very well in getting people sustainably back into the workforce. thank you very much, ben. we did ask the government foreign minister to discuss these proposed changes but they declined. we arejoined darren ely. he is a senior welfare benefits advisor at the disability law service, a charity that helps disabled people access benefits. what do you understand these changes to the work capability assessment to mean in practical terms for people? in practical terms they mean people

currently and that means they get additional money, £390 a month, most of them will be moved into a group which means that they will lose that money, and it isjust going to have really negative consequences, because there isn't anything stopping them from working aside from the barriers society already places on disabled people from working, workplace is not appropriate, not being in suitable housing, not having appropriate social care, and that is the problem and if the government wants to help them then that is what it should be changing, not cutting their money by £390 a month. changing, not cutting their money by £390 a month-— £390 a month. what mel stride the work and pensions _ £390 a month. what mel stride the work and pensions secretary i £390 a month. what mel stride the work and pensions secretary says l £390 a month. what mel stride the | work and pensions secretary says is that one in five people with disabilities tell the government that with the right support they want to work, and it is those kinds of people that he wants to help to get a job, he says. if of people that he wants to help to get a job. he says-— get a 'ob, he says. if he wants to hel get a job, he says. if he wants to help them _ get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get — get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get a _ get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get a job _ get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get a job then - get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get a job then he i get a job, he says. if he wants to help them get a job then he can l help them get a job then he can start by looking at removing barriers to disabled people are ring workplace. there is nothing stopping

people in that group from working, nothing in universal credit that says you will be penalised if you work. there is an amount in universal credit that you can earn without it affecting universal credit at all. that was part of the design of it so that people would not be worse off in work, so actually, this policy that they are suggesting is really unnecessary. they can improve employment support for disabled people but that will not remove barriers to the workplace or housing and social care, and to be honest it is a bit strange how they have the employment support hand—in—hand with the benefits. there are already disabled organisations out there that help disabled people into work who would be better placed to help people who are disabled and who do want to work, and to find jobs. i5 are disabled and who do want to work, and to find jobs.— are disabled and who do want to work, and to find jobs. work, and to find 'obs. is there a link in your_ work, and to find 'obs. is there a link in your mind i work, and to find jobs. is there a link in your mind between - work, and to find jobs. is there a link in your mind between more | link in your mind between more people claiming sickness and disability benefit, and the fact that there are over 7 million people on nhs waiting lists? yes. that there are over 7 million people on nhs waiting lists?— that there are over 7 million people on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i seak to

on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i speak to clients _ on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i speak to clients over _ on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i speak to clients over time - on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i speak to clients over time who i on nhs waiting lists? yes, for sure. i speak to clients over time who for|