flat roofs are normally test them? flat roofs are normally desiuned test them? flat roofs are normally designed for _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight _ test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of— test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of not - test them? flat roofs are normally designed for a weight of not .6 - designed for a weight of not .6 kilos per square metre, bearing in mind an average human adult weighs just under one kilo newton. you can see that you need to put sandbags across or something like that. i do not think that the right process is going to be to carry out load tests on these materials. i don't think it's a viable option. this stage we are at now with what's happened in the last few years and what's known about it is it is best to assume they won't have any further longer life, prop them and then remove and replace them. f’rai life, prop them and then remove and replace them-— replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw ou replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding _ replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. _ replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what - replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what do - replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw you nodding there. what do you i replace them. prof cavalaro, i saw - you nodding there. what do you agree with there? , ., .

you nodding there. what do you agree with there? , . . ., , ., with there? research has informed uuidance with there? research has informed guidance that's _ with there? research has informed guidance that's available _ with there? research has informed guidance that's available and - with there? research has informed guidance that's available and we i with there? research has informedl guidance that's available and we are now updating some of these models. we were _ now updating some of these models. we were just meeting about this before _ we were just meeting about this before this intervention. i think there _ before this intervention. i think there is— before this intervention. i think there is a — before this intervention. i think there is a lot of good information already— there is a lot of good information already there. but more will come. the research has created this new knowledge and essentially in the past two — knowledge and essentially in the past two or three years when we started — past two or three years when we started doing work on this topic. so, started doing work on this topic. 50. it— started doing work on this topic. 50. it is— started doing work on this topic. 50. it is an — started doing work on this topic. so, it is an evolving matter. we know _ so, it is an evolving matter. we know tess — so, it is an evolving matter. we know less about this material when it ages _ know less about this material when it ages than traditional concrete and we — it ages than traditional concrete and we need to keep doing more work and we need to keep doing more work and we _ and we need to keep doing more work and we will— and we need to keep doing more work and we will learn more. i think we will end _ and we will learn more. i think we will end up— and we will learn more. i think we will end up in a scenario where there _ will end up in a scenario where there could be three potential outcomes. eitheraftera there could be three potential outcomes. either after a thorough inspection — outcomes. either after a thorough inspection we can accept that no intervention is required, if

ductility— intervention is required, if ductility and strength sufficient and this— ductility and strength sufficient and this might be the case. secondly, when you need to apply a li-ht secondly, when you need to apply a light intervention, it is difficult to characterise it as light but placing — to characterise it as light but placing reinforcements around the edges— placing reinforcements around the edges to _ placing reinforcements around the edges to make sure that it will withstand a longer life. thirdly, where _ withstand a longer life. thirdly, where we — withstand a longer life. thirdly, where we need to undertake an intensive — where we need to undertake an intensive intervention. it could be to thoroughly reinforce the plank or remove _ to thoroughly reinforce the plank or remove it— to thoroughly reinforce the plank or remove it and substituted entirely. we will _ remove it and substituted entirely. we will need to position ourselves in this— we will need to position ourselves in this simply because i think there will be _ in this simply because i think there will be a _ in this simply because i think there will be a lack of resources to tackle — will be a lack of resources to tackle and substitute everything. we need to _ tackle and substitute everything. we need to remember that these planks were installed over a span of 30 years— were installed over a span of 30 veers of— were installed over a span of 30 years of construction and it's a long _ years of construction and it's a long time _ years of construction and it's a long time. so, we will need to optimise — long time. so, we will need to optimise the intervention over the

veers _ optimise the intervention over the veers to— optimise the intervention over the ears. ., , optimise the intervention over the ears, ., , . ., optimise the intervention over the ears. ., , . ., ., �* optimise the intervention over the ears. . ., , years. to be clear, we won't be seeinr years. to be clear, we won't be seeing buildings _ years. to be clear, we won't be seeing buildings with _ years. to be clear, we won't be seeing buildings with the - years. to be clear, we won't be i seeing buildings with the ceilings propped up that are safe to use, presumably once you've propped it up it's considered a danger?— it's considered a danger? so, you miaht it's considered a danger? so, you might prep _ it's considered a danger? so, you might prep it _ it's considered a danger? so, you might pr°p it up _ it's considered a danger? so, you might pr°p it up if— it's considered a danger? so, you might prop it up if you _ it's considered a danger? so, you might prop it up if you have - might prop it up if you have questions about the plank or the raac_ questions about the plank or the raac itself. your decision might be on the _ raac itself. your decision might be on the side — raac itself. your decision might be on the side of caution to profit. we've — on the side of caution to profit. we've done tests in real planks and buildings _ we've done tests in real planks and buildings and in the lab and i've been— buildings and in the lab and i've been in— buildings and in the lab and i've been in buildings where props were present— been in buildings where props were present and assessed the planks. but you can _ present and assessed the planks. but you can use _ present and assessed the planks. but you can use the space even but it should _ you can use the space even but it should be — you can use the space even but it should be a — you can use the space even but it should be a temporary measure. you cannot— should be a temporary measure. you cannot keep — should be a temporary measure. you cannot keep it as a permanent solution — cannot keep it as a permanent solution because it's not viable. it's solution because it's not viable. lt'siust— solution because it's not viable. it'sjust until you have sufficient information to decide where you are information to decide where you are in the _ information to decide where you are in the three — information to decide where you are in the three scenarios i mentioned. and we _ in the three scenarios i mentioned. and we do— in the three scenarios i mentioned. and we do understand that you can maintain this raac and it can live longer in a safe environment. is

that correct and if so how do you maintain it if it's in your building? it maintain it if it's in your building?— maintain it if it's in your buildinu? , ., ., , building? it has been already ro erl building? it has been already properly maintained - building? it has been already properly maintained because | building? it has been already - properly maintained because the history— properly maintained because the history is— properly maintained because the history is important. something that had been _ history is important. something that had been poorly maintained might not be recoverable but lets say that it reached _ be recoverable but lets say that it reached us — be recoverable but lets say that it reached us in good condition and the reinforcement inside the plank is in a proper— reinforcement inside the plank is in a proper position as well. you might be able _ a proper position as well. you might be able to— a proper position as well. you might be able to keep using it. it's critical— be able to keep using it. it's critical to— be able to keep using it. it's critical to avoid... and to be very careful— critical to avoid... and to be very careful with _ critical to avoid... and to be very careful with changes in use of spaces — careful with changes in use of spaces. so let's say we want to change _ spaces. so let's say we want to change the way we are using the root _ change the way we are using the root we — change the way we are using the roof. we might need to be more careful— roof. we might need to be more careful in— roof. we might need to be more careful in the case of raac. there are things — careful in the case of raac. there are things we can do to still use it. are things we can do to still use it there — are things we can do to still use it there is— are things we can do to still use it. there is good raac out there. with— it. there is good raac out there. with good — it. there is good raac out there. with good consideration and knowledge about the plank we can make _ knowledge about the plank we can make the — knowledge about the plank we can make the decision not to intervene and will— make the decision not to intervene and will have to maintain it really well to _ and will have to maintain it really well to make sure it lasts longer.

damini _ well to make sure it lasts longer. damini sharma, there was a question on 5 live about whether this is an overreaction. she soon act has been out this morning responding to the claims that have been made about his role in this. he has said that 95% of england's 22,000 schools won't be affected by crumbling concrete. is this an overreaction do you think? i wouldn't say it's an overreaction because raac in its structural integrity format is not the ideal scenario. so, i don't think it's an overreaction. i think it's very much like the process when we decided to stop using asbestos and it was banned. we have buildings older than 2000 that have to be assessed and schools and other buildings that have identified raac should have been following an inspection regime.

and identifying where they have got raac. i don't think it's an overreaction. i think the prime minister is not that far off in terms of saying 9i% minister is not that far off in terms of saying 91% of schools won't be affected. those built since 2001 won't be affected at all. i think for the most part it was stopped in the early 905. so, it's going to not have implications across the entire uk for all schools but the schools that are affected are the oldest schools and that's a really important factor to consider and a5 important factor to consider and as my colleague was saying, it's not easy to keep the raac in place and p"°p easy to keep the raac in place and prop it up and continue to use the space underneath permanently. it is a temporary measure but how temporary is a temporary measure? we have to assess that and work out how quickly these planks can be removed and replaced and how the work can be done. shin

and replaced and how the work can be done. �* , , ., and replaced and how the work can be done. �* , y., ., done. an interesting point you made there, it's done. an interesting point you made there. it's no — done. an interesting point you made there, it's no longer _ done. an interesting point you made there, it's no longer used _ done. an interesting point you made there, it's no longer used since - done. an interesting point you made there, it's no longer used since the i there, it's no longer used since the 905. is that everyone's understanding on this panel? 90s. is that everyone's understanding on this panel? yes, this is a manufactured _ understanding on this panel? yes, this is a manufactured product so you can't— this is a manufactured product so you can't make it to yourself on a construction— you can't make it to yourself on a construction site in the way that you can — construction site in the way that you can... inaudible prof cavalaro? so, you can... inaudible prof cavalaro? so. this— you can... inaudible prof cavalaro? so, this product is manufactured not only in— so, this product is manufactured not only in the _ so, this product is manufactured not only in the uk— so, this product is manufactured not only in the uk but— so, this product is manufactured not only in the uk but across _ so, this product is manufactured not only in the uk but across europe. iti only in the uk but across europe. it still is _ only in the uk but across europe. it still is in _ only in the uk but across europe. it still is in some _ only in the uk but across europe. it still is in some places _ only in the uk but across europe. it still is in some places in _ only in the uk but across europe. it still is in some places in europe. i still is in some places in europe. if we _ still is in some places in europe. if we produce _ still is in some places in europe. if we produce it _ still is in some places in europe. if we produce it well, _ if we produce it well, restore it when i — if we produce it well, restore it when i maintain _ if we produce it well, restore it when i maintain it— if we produce it well, restore it when i maintain it well, - if we produce it well, restore it when i maintain it well, it - if we produce it well, restore it when i maintain it well, it can. if we produce it well, restore it i when i maintain it well, it can be if we produce it well, restore it. when i maintain it well, it can be a good _ when i maintain it well, it can be a good material~ _ when i maintain it well, it can be a good material~ i_ when i maintain it well, it can be a good material. i don't— when i maintain it well, it can be a good material. i don't want- when i maintain it well, it can be a good material. i don't want to - good material. i don't want to create — good material. i don't want to create a — good material. i don't want to create a stigma _ good material. i don't want to create a stigma here - good material. i don't want to create a stigma here because| good material. i don't want to - create a stigma here because there are several— create a stigma here because there are several factors _ create a stigma here because there are several factors that _ create a stigma here because there are several factors that lead - create a stigma here because there are several factors that lead to - are several factors that lead to where — are several factors that lead to where we _ are several factors that lead to where we are _ are several factors that lead to where we are today. _ are several factors that lead to where we are today. the - are several factors that lead to i where we are today. the material itself _ where we are today. the material itself can — where we are today. the material itself can be — where we are today. the material itself can be a _ where we are today. the material itself can be a good _ where we are today. the material itself can be a good solution- where we are today. the material itself can be a good solution for. itself can be a good solution for certain— itself can be a good solution for certain applications _ itself can be a good solution for certain applications and - itself can be a good solution for certain applications and it's -

certain applications and it's produced _ certain applications and it's produced nowadays - certain applications and it's produced nowadays and - certain applications and it's - produced nowadays and elsewhere in the world _ produced nowadays and elsewhere in the world and — produced nowadays and elsewhere in the world and used _ produced nowadays and elsewhere in the world and used safely. _ produced nowadays and elsewhere in the world and used safely.— the world and used safely. damini sharma, i want _ the world and used safely. damini sharma, i want to _ the world and used safely. damini sharma, i want to play _ the world and used safely. damini sharma, i want to play this - the world and used safely. damini sharma, i want to play this clip i sharma, i want to play this clip from rishi sunak, his response in the last hour to the crisis. 0ne one of the first things i did was to announce — one of the first things i did was to announce a — one of the first things i did was to announce a new ten year rebuilding programme for 500 schools. that's about _ programme for 500 schools. that's about 50 _ programme for 500 schools. that's about 50 schools a year that will be refurbished or rebuilt and if you look— refurbished or rebuilt and if you look at — refurbished or rebuilt and if you look at what we've been doing over the previous decade, that's completely in line with what we've always _ completely in line with what we've always done, about 50 schools a year refurbished _ always done, about 50 schools a year refurbished or rebuilt. that's what i announced as chancellor in my first spending review. he i announced as chancellor in my first spending review.— i announced as chancellor in my first spending review. he is trying to ut out first spending review. he is trying to put out the _ first spending review. he is trying to put out the flames _ first spending review. he is trying to put out the flames of - first spending review. he is trying to put out the flames of this - to put out the flames of this political crisis when mp5 are returning to westminster. i've got a question from a viewer, he asks can you please ask the next government minister the following question. the enormous cost of fixing up crumbling schools. is it right to continue

spending money on the hs2 project when that money, skills and resource could potentially be switched to rebuild our schools? is this a question of cost now do you think? to be honest, yes, it is a question of cost but they are two polar opposite things. the fact that this particular product raac has been discovered, it's been talked about since the 905. there had been various projects done around this. it's been something the institute of structural engineers have taken seriously. so, it has been an ongoing process. it's no more so in the news which is why it sitting the public eye so much more. that's why we are talking about this in comparison to hs2. if i was a government minister and i had to choose between them, naturally you'd go with schools. but they are two very separate projects with different budgets so i don't think it's necessarily a direct

comparison. idr it's necessarily a direct comparison. it's necessarily a direct comarison. , , ., ., comparison. dr roberts, we have an interestin: comparison. dr roberts, we have an interesting question _ comparison. dr roberts, we have an interesting question asking, - comparison. dr roberts, we have an interesting question asking, dr - interesting question asking, dr roberts has frozen so we are turning back to prof cavalaro. this question says, corby has a new town built predominately around the same time as hale where there had been a a5 hale where there had been a number of schools shut because of raac. how would harlow had so many and call be none? ha5 raac. how would harlow had so many and call be none? has the investigation been affected by their status, academy versus local authority? have they investigated in the same way? do you have any sense of how the decisions were made as to which schools were using the material and which were not? it’s material and which were not? it's difficult to say. part of our research _ difficult to say. part of our research was to identify historical records _

research was to identify historical records about raac application across — records about raac application across the country and there is very little _ across the country and there is very little record — across the country and there is very little record of that. if you add to this point— little record of that. if you add to this point the fact that some of these _ this point the fact that some of these buildings have no blueprints or information about the material itself _ or information about the material itself that — or information about the material itself that is there because it was in a paper— itself that is there because it was in a paper format and might have gotten _ in a paper format and might have gotten lost, it's very difficult to assess — gotten lost, it's very difficult to assess at — gotten lost, it's very difficult to assess at this stage why certain places— assess at this stage why certain places have and others don't. there are some _ places have and others don't. there are some buildings more prone to have _ are some buildings more prone to have raac, as were talking about. those _ have raac, as were talking about. those bigger, flat roofs. these are the ones _ those bigger, flat roofs. these are the ones that are more likely to present— the ones that are more likely to present raac is planks but we also had raac_ present raac is planks but we also had raac as walls. so, they might not be _ had raac as walls. so, they might not be on — had raac as walls. so, they might not be on the roof but they might be in the _ not be on the roof but they might be in the walk — not be on the roof but they might be in the wall. it's difficult at the moment— in the wall. it's difficult at the moment to explain why certain places habit others don't. dr

moment to explain why certain places habit others don't.— habit others don't. dr roberts, to net clari habit others don't. dr roberts, to get clarity on _ habit others don't. dr roberts, to get clarity on this _ habit others don't. dr roberts, to get clarity on this point, - habit others don't. dr roberts, to get clarity on this point, what - get clarity on this point, what about factories or office buildings? are other workplaces also at risk? inaudible we are going to ask our other contributors while we try and get dr roberts back. damini, what can you tell us about the types of buildings that might be at risk? i know that schools are being talked about. other public sector buildings will have been affected, courts, hospitals, care homes, factories a5 hospitals, care homes, factories as well and offices could be affected by this. it is taking that level and measure of risk and working out what are our high priority buildings we've got to deal with first? in line with the education side, the department issued an identification guidance document which was issued

in december 2022 and updated most recently in august. that's a really, really good document and in answer to one of your previous question is where you mentioned academies and other schools and whether they were treated in the same way as public sector schools, yes, this would have gone up to all educational institutions and the most likely scenario about how these kinds of buildings have been identified as from land registry records from the year of built and the likelihood that they are built using raac a5 that they are built using raac as opposed to any other form. prof cavalaro. _ opposed to any other form. prof cavalaro, prof _ opposed to any other form. prof cavalaro, prof cavalaro, dr roberts and nick eardley, thank you very much. and thank you to you for sending us your questions.

live from london. this is bbc news. rishi sunak says it's "utterly wrong" to blame him for the failing to tackle the issue of unsafe concrete in school buildings. i think that is completely and utterly wrong. - actually one of the first things | i did as chancellor in my first| spending review in 2020 l was to announce a new ten year school rebuilding - programme for 500 schools. ukraine's president zelensky is replacing the country's defence minister saying it's time for a new approach. we'll have the latest from the africa climate summit in kenya where we'll go live as the continent's leaders discuss

how it can take climate action. hello, i'm rajini vaidyanathan. welcome to bbc news now, three hours of fast—moving news, interviews and reaction. the uk prime minister rishi sunak says it's "utterly wrong" to blame him for failing to tackle the issue of unsafe concrete in school buldings. a5 thousands of children return to classrooms today after the summer break — it's emerged that more than 100 schools in england and scotland will be closed or partially shut. it's over safety concerns about what is known as raac — a type of concrete known to be at risk of crumbling. mr sunak denied he failed to take action after concerns came to light when he was chancellor. newer information camel to light relatively recently

and it is important once it had that that the government acted on it i