the people do want to talk about how the media has handled this story over however long it is. and huw edwards, a real shock for people, no criminality, though. this is the thing. an ongoing hr issue, but surely that should be an internal matter? now it is out there. let's talk about this one and the rest of the media, let's talk about us. have we learned nothing? i do feel there is an appetite to talk about news values, about moral values as well, very high up person at the sun tested me yesterday and said they want the bbc dead. some see this as wheels within wheels, some see this as a commercial decision against arrival, a haven of metropolitan people cramping their business conditions, and you could say vicky

flind played a blinder and they made the bbc look slow, incompetent and disingenuous. cue the theme from succession. we are always good at that. did this and get it wrong? get in touch. —— did the sun get it wrong? good morning. here is the news. the bbc is resuming its investigation into hugh eggers great for a conduct after police suggested that claims he paid a teenagerfor after police suggested that claims he paid a teenager for explicit pictures did not involve criminality. he is being treated in hospital for mental health issues. junior doctors in england have begun a five—day strike over a pay dispute, described by the union as the longest in nhs history. downing street says the latest walk—out by

members of the bma will put patient safety at risk. the union has asked them to make a credible offer of salaries. the bbc understands pay review bodies have recommended increases of between six and 6.5%, more than ministers say is affordable. airport drop—off charges for drivers have increased by almost a third at uk airports over the past year according to the rsa. operators have defended the hike saying the extra revenue helped to maximise the range of flights that can be offered. what a saga this all is. it has been

very tough to cover here, obviously, and our thoughts have to be with all those who have suffered, the family who have suffered, and huw edwards of course. but the met police say no evidence of criminality and look at the way it has been covered in the media, led by the sun, but it is also followed by bbc news and the daily mail and the mirror and the daily mail and the mirror and the daily express and all the so—called non—tabloids as well. jackie haynes is from the act of group which campaigns for better press accountability. good morning. and chris holly, the author of the tabloid nation. you know the sun inside out. what about the intimations that there had been criminality that the sun clearly

made, although they are rolling back on it and saying, we never said that? ~ ., , on it and saying, we never said that? ~ ., ., that? well, there was an innuendo. innuendo is — that? well, there was an innuendo. innuendo is ten _ that? well, there was an innuendo. innuendo is ten times _ that? well, there was an innuendo. innuendo is ten times worse - that? well, there was an innuendo. innuendo is ten times worse than . innuendo is ten times worse than libel. it is when you say, oh, no, he would never do that. but it is very clear there was no criminality involved because a case was not started. at that point the sun or any other newspaper could not name the individual in case it did go to trial. the main right here is the right to a fair trial if criminality had been involved. had there been criminality it is impossible to get a fair trial criminality it is impossible to get a fairtrial in criminality it is impossible to get a fair trial in front of a jury who may have seen the sun, which is for practical purposes read by every single person in the country. the lanauuae single person in the country. the language the _ single person in the country. the language the sun use, tell us more about that. let me give some of it,

chris. sex pics probe, top bbc presenter taken off air after paying teenagerfor presenter taken off air after paying teenager for sexual pictures. allegations he paid a teenager sexual pictures are being investigated. i blame this man for destroying my child was my life. these are quotes and the word child is used all along. appalling abuse, this bbc star, my child showed him pictures of him. it is very loaded, isn't it? , , , isn't it? yes, but if it is true, and in practical— isn't it? yes, but if it is true, and in practical terms - isn't it? yes, but if it is true, and in practical terms that i isn't it? yes, but if it is true, - and in practical terms that means sources were prepared to go to court and swear an affidavit this was true, then the sun had not only are right, but a duty to report this wrongdoing, or if it was not wrongdoing, or if it was not wrongdoing at least questionable activity by huw edwards, who is a

very senior person within the bbc and the bbc is one of the most important institutions in the country. important institutions in the count . �* , important institutions in the count .�* , ., country. but the young person got in touch with the _ country. but the young person got in touch with the sun _ country. but the young person got in touch with the sun and _ country. but the young person got in touch with the sun and the _ country. but the young person got in touch with the sun and the lawyers l touch with the sun and the lawyers acting for the young person got in touch with the sun and said there was no criminality, nothing inappropriate, and that was a dereliction, was it not? let me throw this to jackie. talk about that dereliction ofjournalistic duty. you come in here. it is that dereliction of journalistic duty. you come in here. it is basic journalistic— duty. you come in here. it is basic journalistic standards. _ duty. you come in here. it is basic journalistic standards. of - duty. you come in here. it is basic journalistic standards. of course l duty. you come in here. it is basicj journalistic standards. of course it was appropriate for them to investigate what the family had said _ investigate what the family had said. there was a public interest in looking _ said. there was a public interest in looking at— said. there was a public interest in looking at this story and judging about_ looking at this story and judging about what the public interest would be about what the public interest would he and _ about what the public interest would be and that is legitimate. but the basic_ be and that is legitimate. but the basicjournalistic standards and the due diligence involved in looking at

all the _ due diligence involved in looking at all the evidence that they had in front_ all the evidence that they had in front of— all the evidence that they had in front of them and it was just incredibly convenient to ignore that message _ incredibly convenient to ignore that message from the young person's legal— message from the young person's legal representative. it appears it didnt— legal representative. it appears it didn't play a part of their bigger agenda, — didn't play a part of their bigger agenda, which was to have a screaming headline which was implicating a senior and well—known presenter— implicating a senior and well—known presenter from the bbc in wrongdoing. you are absolutely right, _ wrongdoing. you are absolutely right, the — wrongdoing. you are absolutely right, the day after day screaming headlines — right, the day after day screaming headlines all made inference to criminality and left nobody in any doubt _ criminality and left nobody in any doubt that was what was involved. you know. — doubt that was what was involved. you know, with all the major news stories— you know, with all the major news stories that — you know, with all the major news stories that are going on at the moment— stories that are going on at the moment one can only assume that this is absolutely _ moment one can only assume that this is absolutely from the wider agenda of the _ is absolutely from the wider agenda of the murdoch organisation to discredit — of the murdoch organisation to discredit the bbc. it is very

difficult _ discredit the bbc. it is very difficult not to come to that conclusion.— difficult not to come to that conclusion. �* �* . ., , , conclusion. the bbc are liars, being one of the headlines _ conclusion. the bbc are liars, being one of the headlines quoted - conclusion. the bbc are liars, being one of the headlines quoted the - one of the headlines quoted the family of the young person. let's hear from you. call me on 08085 909693. our loaded headline is did the sun get it wrong? i am fine with a masochism strategy if you want to kick the bbc. jake kantor, investigations editor for a decade. what is the agenda for the sun? what do you think about the way they have covered it? ,., ., ., , ., ., covered it? good morning, it is good to be with you- _ covered it? good morning, it is good to be with you- l _ covered it? good morning, it is good to be with you. i hesitate _ covered it? good morning, it is good to be with you. i hesitate to - covered it? good morning, it is good to be with you. i hesitate to say - to be with you. i hesitate to say there is an insidious conspiracy here. clearly news uk is not necessarily a big fan of the bbc and

the bbc infringes on its commercial territory and is a market intervention. that is what news uk would probably describe the bbc as. but whether that filters down into a story like this, i think there are questions about that. the sun clearly felt it had a good story about a very high profile bbc presenter and they were well within their rights to splash that on the front page of the newspaper. there are clearly questions about how the sun has done that and i think it is pretty clear that there was an inference in is reporting that these actions, these alleged actions, or the alleged allegations against huw edwards, or potentially criminal in nature. it has attempted to row back from that in recent days. i think

the question for huw edwards here potentially when he is hopefully recovered from his mental health issuesis recovered from his mental health issues is whether the damage has been done despite him not being named. this story was allowed to fester at the top of news bulletins for the best part of a week and now that huw edwards has been named people may have already formed their views about his conduct prior to the police saying there is no evidence of criminal activity and indeed before the bbc has completed its investigation into his professional conduct. i thought it was really interesting that while this scandal had been rumbling on, we can say this now because we know the identity of the presenter, but huw edwards liked a tweet on twitter from jon sopel, a former bbc journalist, a former colleague, nicky, who said the sun could face the mother of all libel actions, so

thatis the mother of all libel actions, so that is one to watch going forward. chris, how do you think the bbc has handled this?— handled this? terribly. first, we must have _ handled this? terribly. first, we must have sympathy _ handled this? terribly. first, we must have sympathy for - handled this? terribly. first, we must have sympathy for huw . handled this? terribly. first, we - must have sympathy for huw edwards and his— must have sympathy for huw edwards and his family who have been dragged through— and his family who have been dragged through the mud. but the fact is huw edwards— through the mud. but the fact is huw edwards is— through the mud. but the fact is huw edwards is a — through the mud. but the fact is huw edwards is a representative of the bbc, _ edwards is a representative of the bbc, one — edwards is a representative of the bbc, one of the biggest and most important — bbc, one of the biggest and most important institutions in the country— important institutions in the country and indeed in the world, so there _ country and indeed in the world, so there will— country and indeed in the world, so there will be high—end levels of scrutiny— there will be high—end levels of scrutiny and criticism of that behaviour. it is publicly funded, that is— behaviour. it is publicly funded, that is another aspect of this. so the bbc— that is another aspect of this. so the bbc management, what were they doin- the bbc management, what were they doing when he was going through this nervous _ doing when he was going through this nervous breakdown? where were the signs? _ nervous breakdown? where were the signs? where was the management? where _ signs? where was the management? where were the performance reviews to say— where were the performance reviews to say how _ where were the performance reviews to say how are you feeling? how's it going? _ to say how are you feeling? how's it going? you — to say how are you feeling? how's it going? you seem to be behaving in an odd way— going? you seem to be behaving in an odd way from time to time. so the bbc has _ odd way from time to time. so the bbc has failed to manage top talent in various— bbc has failed to manage top talent in various ways over the years, perhaps— in various ways over the years, perhaps we _ in various ways over the years, perhaps we shouldn't get into that,

and this— perhaps we shouldn't get into that, and this is— perhaps we shouldn't get into that, and this is another instance of that — and this is another instance of that. . ., ., ., that. have we learned nothing after caroline flack _ that. have we learned nothing after caroline flack about _ that. have we learned nothing after caroline flack about the _ that. have we learned nothing after caroline flack about the hounding? | that. have we learned nothing after| caroline flack about the hounding? i guess the bbc felt they had to pursue this story on one of their own because of the way they and others in the media pursued the phillip schofield story relentlessly. we discussed that on the phone and there were big numbers when we discussed it. we felt that is what people wanted to talk about. have we lost a sense of humanity? i thought things had got better. weill. thought things had got better. well, it is a matter — thought things had got better. well, it is a matter of _ thought things had got better. well, it is a matter of balance. _ thought things had got better. well, it is a matter of balance. i _ thought things had got better. well, it is a matter of balance. i don't know— it is a matter of balance. i don't know whether we want to name anybody. — know whether we want to name anybody, but very senior bbc on-screen_ anybody, but very senior bbc on—screen figures in the world of light— on—screen figures in the world of light entertainment and the world of p0p light entertainment and the world of pop music— light entertainment and the world of pop music have found to have been

engaged _ pop music have found to have been engaged in — pop music have found to have been engaged in very serious misconduct that is— engaged in very serious misconduct that is harmful to the public. so the scrutiny of the bbc is there institutionally because of its constitutional position. it is the bbc that— constitutional position. it is the bbc that does the coronations, the royal— bbc that does the coronations, the royal funerals, bbc that does the coronations, the royalfunerals, it bbc that does the coronations, the royal funerals, it is seen by many around _ royal funerals, it is seen by many around the — royal funerals, it is seen by many around the world as one of the twin towers _ around the world as one of the twin towers of— around the world as one of the twin towers of the british way of life, the british establishment, so there is scrutiny— the british establishment, so there is scrutiny there and an appalling track— is scrutiny there and an appalling track record of abuse of younger people _ track record of abuse of younger people by— track record of abuse of younger people by senior bbc people. now, whether— people by senior bbc people. now, whether the sun will advance that as a hypocritical thing because they think— a hypocritical thing because they think it _ a hypocritical thing because they think it is — a hypocritical thing because they think it is a cracking good story about— think it is a cracking good story about a — think it is a cracking good story about a well— known person you would not expect _ about a well— known person you would not expect to be involved in this kind of— not expect to be involved in this kind of thing, the last person, and whether— kind of thing, the last person, and whether they are covering themselves with public— whether they are covering themselves with public interest defence, that is another— with public interest defence, that is another matter and we really don't _ is another matter and we really don't know that. it mayjust be convenient that their public duty coincides— convenient that their public duty coincides with their commercial duty. _ coincides with their commercial duty, which no doubt is driving this _ duty, which no doubt is driving this. ., ., .,

duty, which no doubt is driving this. ., . . well, this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a — this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a business, _ this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a business, it _ this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a business, it is _ this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a business, it is a - this. tell me more about that. well, the sun is a business, it is a very - the sun is a business, it is a very profitable — the sun is a business, it is a very profitable business, not as profitable business, not as profitable as it once was, and its news _ profitable as it once was, and its news agenda every day is simply to write _ news agenda every day is simply to write about whoever is on the telly. today— write about whoever is on the telly. today they — write about whoever is on the telly. today they are doing massive coverage _ today they are doing massive coverage of wimbledon because it is on the _ coverage of wimbledon because it is on the telly. anything, any person, whether— on the telly. anything, any person, whether they are from politics, sport. — whether they are from politics, sport. any— whether they are from politics, sport, any other sphere, the war in ukraine. _ sport, any other sphere, the war in ukraine, zelensky, anybody who is on the telly— ukraine, zelensky, anybody who is on the telly a _ ukraine, zelensky, anybody who is on the telly a lot is a person they will be — the telly a lot is a person they will be interested in because they know— will be interested in because they know if— will be interested in because they know if they write about those people — know if they write about those people they sell more copies. if they have — people they sell more copies. if they have got some salacious water cooler— they have got some salacious water cooler stuff, something people will even take — cooler stuff, something people will even take a mild interest in, did you hear— even take a mild interest in, did you hear about huw edwards? it is not earth — you hear about huw edwards? it is not earth shattering, it is interesting and enough to sell the paper— interesting and enough to sell the paper when it interesting and enough to sell the paperwhen it is interesting and enough to sell the paper when it is sitting on the newsagent's counter in the morning. jake kantor. — newsagent's counter in the morning. jake kantor, i know you have to go. it is interesting or prurient?

judging by the correspondence i have had from family and friends over the last few days, people have been really desperate to know who this individual was and i have had a lot of questions about huw edwards and i think there is genuine interest in this story. there are a couple of things i would say. i am not sure the sun has done it to sell more newspapers. the evidence shows that these kind of stories don't necessarily make a material difference to newspaper sales these days because they are in eternal decline. what it does is feed the wider media ecosystem. and i say this is a former news uk employee, they have got a regime to fill with content on talk radio and tv and the times has covered extensively this issue and that all works in the

favour of news uk. i thought something that was interesting and said earlier by sir craig oliver on the today programme is that he thinks it is time forjournalists to maybe think about these kind of stories and may be slow the news down a bit. news is so breathlessly relentless these days and it is clear that potentially some of the reporting here has got conflated. you know, initially it seemed that the allegations may be criminal in nature and now the story has very clearly moved into the territory where there are no questions about huw edwards' professional conduct. that is an entirely different matter. at the same time we have got reams of information now and potentially allegations about his private life which i am sure are deeply upsetting for him and his family and whether that is any of our business is a big question. it

is a big question. thank you very much indeed. what do you think? let's talk about the media and did the sun get it wrong? did the bbc get it wrong? tom in sunderland and gary in colchester. hello, carrie, hello, tom. welcome to both of you. tom, what would you like to say? say what you want. i tom, what would you like to say? say what you want-— what you want. i think the question did the sun — what you want. i think the question did the sun get _ what you want. i think the question did the sun get it _ what you want. i think the question did the sun get it wrong _ what you want. i think the question did the sun get it wrong is - what you want. i think the question did the sun get it wrong is narrow l did the sun get it wrong is narrow in scope? — did the sun get it wrong is narrow in scope? maybe they got it wrong but may— in scope? maybe they got it wrong but may be other people got it more wrong _ but may be other people got it more wrong i_ but may be other people got it more wrong. i don't think anybody covered wrong. idon't think anybody covered themselves— wrong. i don't think anybody covered themselves in glory. i am not a reader— themselves in glory. i am not a reader of— themselves in glory. i am not a reader of the sun, i am not sticking up reader of the sun, i am not sticking up for— reader of the sun, i am not sticking up for them — reader of the sun, i am not sticking up for them at all, but maybe huw edwards— up for them at all, but maybe huw edwards has been a paradigm of trust between _ edwards has been a paradigm of trust between the media and the public, never— between the media and the public, never mind — between the media and the public, never mind being the figurehead of bbc state _ never mind being the figurehead of bbc state occasions, the funeral coverage — bbc state occasions, the funeral coverage of the queen, the queen's death— coverage of the queen, the queen's death announcement. in hindsight maybe _ death announcement. in hindsight maybe that might need to be edited in the _ maybe that might need to be edited in the archive, i don't know.

somebody— in the archive, i don't know. somebody might choose to do that in retrospect _ somebody might choose to do that in retrospect. but the thing is, other people _ retrospect. but the thing is, other people might have got it wrong but huw edwards, for someone who is religious— huw edwards, for someone who is religious and on the pedestal of public— religious and on the pedestal of public life maybe he let himself down _ public life maybe he let himself down more personally and professionally. yes, it was not criminal. — professionally. yes, it was not criminal, but he could have done better— criminal, but he could have done better himself personally, maybe. can't _ better himself personally, maybe. can't we _ better himself personally, maybe. can't we all? human beings are complex creatures.— can't we all? human beings are complex creatures. yes, we do, but we don't have _ complex creatures. yes, we do, but we don't have the _ complex creatures. yes, we do, but we don't have the context _ complex creatures. yes, we do, but we don't have the context of - complex creatures. yes, we do, but we don't have the context of being i we don't have the context of being paid for— we don't have the context of being paid for by— we don't have the context of being paid for by the licence fee and somebody who is on the six o'clock or ten— somebody who is on the six o'clock or ten o'clock news telling other people — or ten o'clock news telling other people about other stories when maybe _ people about other stories when maybe they have kind of done something similar, although not criminals — something similar, although not criminals themselves. i understand what ou criminals themselves. i understand what you are _ criminals themselves. i understand what you are saying. _ criminals themselves. i understand what you are saying. people - criminals themselves. i understand what you are saying. people will i what you are saying. people will understand what you are saying. but as yet we do not know. he may get a

clean slate on all of this. absolutely.— clean slate on all of this. absolutel . ~ . ., , ., ., clean slate on all of this. absolutel . ~ . ., ., ., absolutely. what i was going to ask is i understand _ absolutely. what i was going to ask is i understand what _ absolutely. what i was going to ask is i understand what you _ absolutely. what i was going to ask is i understand what you are - absolutely. what i was going to ask| is i understand what you are saying, but the way this has covered, how voraciously they have gone for it. i am just wondering where you comfortable with that? fir. am just wondering where you comfortable with that? or, again to clari i comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am — comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am not a — comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am not a reader _ comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am not a reader of - comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am not a reader of the - comfortable with that? or, again to clarify i am not a reader of the sun | clarify i am not a reader of the sun and never— clarify i am not a reader of the sun and never have been.— clarify i am not a reader of the sun and never have been. what paper do ou read, and never have been. what paper do you read. if— and never have been. what paper do you read. if any? _ and never have been. what paper do you read, if any? i— and never have been. what paper do you read, if any? i don't, _ and never have been. what paper do you read, if any? i don't, i— and never have been. what paper do you read, if any? i don't, i looked i you read, if any? i don't, i looked oane you read, if any? i don't, i looked online for— you read, if any? i don't, i looked online for different _ you read, if any? i don't, i looked online for different things - you read, if any? i don't, i looked online for different things and i i online for different things and i usually— online for different things and i usually go to news websites, actually _ usually go to news websites, actually. by the way, i think by kind _ actually. by the way, i think by kind of— actually. by the way, i think by kind of not— actually. by the way, i think by kind of not revealing himself sooner it kind _ kind of not revealing himself sooner it kind of _ kind of not revealing himself sooner it kind of added fuel to the flames, not to— it kind of added fuel to the flames, not to mention the added pressure of abuse _ not to mention the added pressure of abuse like _ not to mention the added pressure of abuse like yourself and jeremy vine and you _ abuse like yourself and jeremy vine and you have had to put your head above _ and you have had to put your head above the — and you have had to put your head above the parapet and say it is nothing — above the parapet and say it is nothing to do with me. kind of things— nothing to do with me. kind of things like that could have been

handled — things like that could have been handled massively differently and it might— handled massively differently and it might not have got so vile in the media _ might not have got so vile in the media as — might not have got so vile in the media as it— might not have got so vile in the media as it has become.- might not have got so vile in the media as it has become. tom, thank ou. sta media as it has become. tom, thank you- stay there _ media as it has become. tom, thank you. stay there and _ media as it has become. tom, thank you. stay there and listen _ media as it has become. tom, thank you. stay there and listen to - media as it has become. tom, thank you. stay there and listen to gary. . you. stay there and listen to gary. we might come back to you. gary, janet and kendall is coming up and clive coleman as well. gary, good morning. what would you like to say? i would like to say that i have a huge amount of sympathy for huw edwards and his family. it sounds from what we have heard that he has been struggling with his mental health for some time and one wonders if that is because he has been under strain because of his feelings and his sexuality. brute strain because of his feelings and his sexuality-— strain because of his feelings and his sexuality. we don't know about that. we don't _ his sexuality. we don't know about that. we don't know— his sexuality. we don't know about that. we don't know anything i his sexuality. we don't know about| that. we don't know anything about that. we don't know anything about that. we don't know anything about that. we are not discussing that.

no, but having said that, despite hisjob and the no, but having said that, despite his job and the fact he is a public figure, he hasn't done anything illegal. i think he has been very naive in trusting people. perhaps he thought he really knew them. but the original young person in this story has said it was nonsense. the second young person said that he sent him some expletive filled message, but that was after he threatened to reveal who he was on facebook. i think any of us might have got a bit worried and written expletives if we were in that position. i think the bbc is in a very difficult position because these things are very difficult to handle well when everybody is putting their oar in and tell you that you are wrong one way or another. and i think the sun

should not have published the story, particularly because the young person told him it was nonsense. i believe they also said they were estranged from the parent who was making that accusation. also, i am not terribly happy with jeremy vine because rather than standing by his colleague he seemed more concerned with... i colleague he seemed more concerned with... ~' ., g , , colleague he seemed more concerned with... ~ ., . , , ., with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man. i am — with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man. i am sure _ with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i am sure he _ with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i am sure he had _ with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i am sure he had the - with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i am sure he had the best- with... i knowjeremy, he is a good man, i am sure he had the best ofl man, i am sure he had the best of intentions and there has been incredible frustration and consternation around here. ifeel extraordinarily uncomfortable right now discussing this, but i do think it is an important conversation to have about the way the media has handled it, gary. clive coleman, thatis handled it, gary. clive coleman, that is what we will talk about. a quick one from jackie haynes, a bit of food for thought from a couple of listeners and we want to hear more from you.

listeners and we want to hear more from ou. ~ , ., , from you. absolutely, and it is wonderful— from you. absolutely, and it is wonderful to _ from you. absolutely, and it is wonderful to hear _ from you. absolutely, and it is wonderful to hear some i from you. absolutely, and it is i wonderful to hear some compassion coming _ wonderful to hear some compassion coming through and some people's comments, but for me this is very much _ comments, but for me this is very much about— comments, but for me this is very much about accountability. what we have been— much about accountability. what we have been hearing from the bbc is the fact— have been hearing from the bbc is the fact they are willing to discuss and debate these issues. they are accountable through ofcom. the sun is unregulated by ipso and the team complaints— is unregulated by ipso and the team complaints handling. there are victoria — complaints handling. there are victoria newton and rebekah brooks. they are _ victoria newton and rebekah brooks. they are not out defending the story. — they are not out defending the story, they are brave enough to publish — story, they are brave enough to publish it. — story, they are brave enough to publish it, but they are not brave enough _ publish it, but they are not brave enough to— publish it, but they are not brave enough to stand out and defend it. i think— enough to stand out and defend it. i think that _ enough to stand out and defend it. i think that says a lot about the way that they— think that says a lot about the way that they conduct journalism, which is very— that they conduct journalism, which is very sad — that they conduct journalism, which is very sad. we heard a comment there _ is very sad. we heard a comment there about — is very sad. we heard a comment there about perhaps the decline in there about perhaps the decline in the newspaper industry, but exemplifies the fact that newspapers like the _ exemplifies the fact that newspapers like the sun and the megaphone they have still— like the sun and the megaphone they have still dominate the news agenda and it— have still dominate the news agenda and it is— have still dominate the news agenda and it is picked up across the board

and it is picked up across the board and i_ and it is picked up across the board and i think— and it is picked up across the board and i think some other publications and i think some other publications and broadcasters have some questions to answer— and broadcasters have some questions to answer about the due diligence of accepting _ to answer about the due diligence of accepting the least trusted newspaper in the country's account and not _ newspaper in the country's account and not questioning and doing their own due _ and not questioning and doing their own due diligence before they republished or retold the story. for me it _ republished or retold the story. for me it is _ republished or retold the story. for me it is about an abuse of this power— me it is about an abuse of this power and _ me it is about an abuse of this power and unashamed abuse. clive, from a bbc — power and unashamed abuse. clive, from a bbc legal _ power and unashamed abuse. clive, from a bbc legal correspondent, i from a bbc legal correspondent, clive coleman, a greatjournalist, having worked with you over the years and done what they call in the business two ways, what would have happened if the bbc had had this story but had not printed or included in the story the statement of the young person that had come to them? what would have happened there? i them? what would have happened there? . . �* �* them? what would have happened there? . , �* �* ., there? i was the bbc legal correspondent _ there? i was the bbc legal correspondent for - there? i was the bbc legal correspondent for ten i there? i was the bbc legal. correspondent for ten years, i

there? i was the bbc legal- correspondent for ten years, i can't imagine doing a story which makes serious allegations and there is a victim, if you like, and the victim contact you before the story goes live and tells you that the story is rubbish, that you don't include in your piece. there may be legitimate reasons for raising the story but you certainly need to include the critical element that the person who is alleged to have suffered says this is all nonsense. ifind is alleged to have suffered says this is all nonsense. i find that very, very difficult to understand and i would welcome a detailed explanation of that from the sun and i don't think we have had as yet. the other thing i wanted to say, nikki, is i wanted to post this as a question for your listeners. the sun's coverage essentially said a bbc presenter paid £35,000 to a young person for indecent images and that started with a young person was 17 years old. but the sun is saying

they did not alleged criminality. is that not a bit like saying you have an allegation of someone who is seeing another person, walking into a shop, put some goods into their pocket and leaves the shop. they are not saying it is theft or criminality, but they are assembling all of the elements for the offence of theft. then it is compounded, the shop owner contact the journalist and says you know what? nothing was taken, and you don't include that in the story either. i wonder whether people will feel that the sun's coverage could be likened to that. what about the bbc?— coverage could be likened to that. what about the bbc? well, the bbc in this story certainly _ what about the bbc? well, the bbc in this story certainly has _ what about the bbc? well, the bbc in this story certainly has some - what about the bbc? well, the bbc in this story certainly has some big i this story certainly has some big questions to answer. i think people are legitimately concerned about the fact that postjimmy savile and some of the other issues that the bbc has had to deal with over the years, that when this complaint was first

made someone attending bbc premises and then the former complaint going in, the timeline is something that will trouble a lot of people. we talked about this the other day and when you have a situation like this at the bbc, and the director—general has noted in this direction, that there are issues to examine, there is a process to scrutinise. when we had the martin bashir panorama scandal because trust is so critical to the bbc it ended up being an inquiry, they commissioned an inquiry, they commissioned an inquiry by a senior, retired judge, lord dyson. we can have a bbc inquiry but the bbc have said they will not launch an investigation and it will take place. but it may be that in due course we will need something that seems to be more independent. when that situation cropped up, people criticise the judiciary, but when that situation

crops up we need a seniorjudge who issued forensically looking at evidence and coming to a fair adjudication on it. irate evidence and coming to a fair adjudication on it. evidence and coming to a fair ad'udication on it. ~ ., ad'udication on it. we welcome kate in adjudication on it. we welcome kate in coventry and _ adjudication on it. we welcome kate in coventry and janet _ adjudication on it. we welcome kate in coventry and janet and _ adjudication on it. we welcome kate in coventry and janet and kendall. i in coventry and janet and kendall. kate, what do you think? i in coventry and janet and kendall. kate, what do you think?— kate, what do you think? i don't understand _ kate, what do you think? i don't understand politics _ kate, what do you think? i don't understand politics or— kate, what do you think? i don't understand politics or anything i kate, what do you think? i don't i understand politics or anything like that so— understand politics or anything like that so i_ understand politics or anything like that so i have really been watching it from _ that so i have really been watching it from a _ that so i have really been watching it from a mental health point. i think— it from a mental health point. i think because the sun would have been _ think because the sun would have been aware of the troubles he has had. _ been aware of the troubles he has had. i_ been aware of the troubles he has had, i suffer with my mental health myself— had, i suffer with my mental health myself and — had, i suffer with my mental health myself and i have always followed his story. — myself and i have always followed his story, so they would have known the detrimental impact that this would _ the detrimental impact that this would have had on his mental health and how— would have had on his mental health and how it _ would have had on his mental health and how it would have made him feel. yet they— and how it would have made him feel. yet they still made the choice to go ahead _ yet they still made the choice to go ahead with — yet they still made the choice to go ahead with that story were in the end they— ahead with that story were in the end they could have had blood on their— end they could have had blood on their hands for what they have done. trophy—

their hands for what they have done. trophy hunting some would say, wouldn't they?— trophy hunting some would say, wouldn't the ? , �*, ,, ., wouldn't they? yes, it's, you know, if anything — wouldn't they? yes, it's, you know, if anything happened _ wouldn't they? yes, it's, you know, if anything happened to _ wouldn't they? yes, it's, you know, if anything happened to huw - wouldn't they? yes, it's, you know, l if anything happened to huw edwards now, if anything happened to huw edwards now. who _ if anything happened to huw edwards now, who would be made accountable for that? _ now, who would be made accountable forthat? he _ now, who would be made accountable forthat? he is now now, who would be made accountable for that? he is now in hospital as an inpatient. some people can only assume _ an inpatient. some people can only assume things, but when he has done so well— assume things, but when he has done so well to— assume things, but when he has done so well to make himself better and i am not _ so well to make himself better and i am not disregarding what may or may not have _ am not disregarding what may or may not have happened, theyjust have not have happened, theyjust have not taken — not have happened, theyjust have not taken into account the impact that that — not taken into account the impact that that would have had on him. even _ that that would have had on him. even someone who didn't suffer with mental— even someone who didn't suffer with mental health would really struggle with what has happened. but someone is vulnerable and they have still decided. — is vulnerable and they have still decided, let's run with the story. janet and kendell, the sun, the bbc, the rest of it, what do you reckon?

so many people should be holding their heads— so many people should be holding their heads in— so many people should be holding their heads in shame _ so many people should be holding their heads in shame as— so many people should be holding their heads in shame as to - so many people should be holding their heads in shame as to how. so many people should be holding i their heads in shame as to how they reacted _ their heads in shame as to how they reacted to _ their heads in shame as to how they reacted to this — their heads in shame as to how they reacted to this story. _ their heads in shame as to how they reacted to this story. when - their heads in shame as to how they reacted to this story. when the i reacted to this story. when the police — reacted to this story. when the police said _ reacted to this story. when the police said there _ reacted to this story. when the police said there was _ reacted to this story. when the police said there was no - reacted to this story. when the. police said there was no criminal activity. — police said there was no criminal activity. people _ police said there was no criminal activity, people still— police said there was no criminal activity, people still continue i police said there was no criminal activity, people still continue toi activity, people still continue to bound _ activity, people still continue to bound him _ activity, people still continue to bound him i_ activity, people still continue to hound him. i am _ activity, people still continue to hound him. i am ashamed, i activity, people still continue to hound him. i am ashamed, it. activity, people still continue to hound him. lam ashamed, it is| hound him. lam ashamed, it is appalling — hound him. lam ashamed, it is appalling the _ hound him. iam ashamed, it is appalling. the bbc— hound him. lam ashamed, it is appalling. the bbc colleagues, | hound him. i am ashamed, it is. appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't— appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need — appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need to _ appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need to know— appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need to know his _ appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need to know his name, i appalling. the bbc colleagues, we didn't need to know his name, we| didn't need to know his name, we didn't— didn't need to know his name, we didn't need — didn't need to know his name, we didn't need to _ didn't need to know his name, we didn't need to know— didn't need to know his name, we didn't need to know who - didn't need to know his name, we didn't need to know who he - didn't need to know his name, we didn't need to know who he was. i didn't need to know his name, we i didn't need to know who he was. once it was— didn't need to know who he was. once it was said _ didn't need to know who he was. once it was said there _ didn't need to know who he was. once it was said there was _ didn't need to know who he was. once it was said there was no _ didn't need to know who he was. once it was said there was no criminal- it was said there was no criminal activity. — it was said there was no criminal activity. let— it was said there was no criminal activity, let the _ it was said there was no criminal activity, let the guy _ it was said there was no criminal activity, let the guy he'll? - it was said there was no criminal activity, let the guy he'll? the. it was said there was no criminal activity, let the guy he'll? the bbc had to cover _ activity, let the guy he'll? the bbc had to cover the _ activity, let the guy he'll? the bbc had to cover the story, _ activity, let the guy he'll? the bbc had to cover the story, though. if. had to cover the story, though. if bbc news had not covered the story, we would have been accused of covering up? i we would have been accused of covering up?— we would have been accused of covering up? i agree, cover the story but _ covering up? i agree, cover the story but once _ covering up? i agree, cover the story but once it _ covering up? i agree, cover the story but once it said, - covering up? i agree, cover the story but once it said, the i covering up? i agree, cover the| story but once it said, the police said that — story but once it said, the police said that statement, _ story but once it said, the police said that statement, should i story but once it said, the policej said that statement, should that story but once it said, the police i said that statement, should that not have been— said that statement, should that not have been the — said that statement, should that not have been the end _ said that statement, should that not have been the end of— said that statement, should that not have been the end of it. _ said that statement, should that not have been the end of it. should i said that statement, should that not have been the end of it. should the| have been the end of it. should the bbc have _ have been the end of it. should the bbc have said. _ have been the end of it. should the bbc have said, we _

have been the end of it. should the bbc have said, we will— have been the end of it. should the bbc have said, we will continue i have been the end of it. should thej bbc have said, we will continue our internal— bbc have said, we will continue our internal investigations _ bbc have said, we will continue our internal investigations but - bbc have said, we will continue our internal investigations but as - bbc have said, we will continue our internal investigations but as far. internal investigations but as far as any— internal investigations but as far as any criminality, _ internal investigations but as far as any criminality, it _ internal investigations but as far as any criminality, it has - internal investigations but as far as any criminality, it has not i as any criminality, it has not happened. _ as any criminality, it has not happened, move _ as any criminality, it has not happened, move on. - as any criminality, it has not happened, move on. this i as any criminality, it has not. happened, move on. this guy as any criminality, it has not - happened, move on. this guy may never— happened, move on. this guy may never recover. _ happened, move on. this guy may never recover, his _ happened, move on. this guy may never recover, his children - happened, move on. this guy may never recover, his children may. never recover, his children may never— never recover, his children may never recover. _ never recover, his children may never recover, his _ never recover, his children may never recover, his wife - never recover, his children may never recover, his wife will- never recover, his children may never recover, his wife will be i never recover, his wife will be persecuted _ never recover, his wife will be persecuted by— never recover, his wife will be persecuted by this _ never recover, his wife will be persecuted by this for - never recover, his wife will be persecuted by this for the i never recover, his wife will be| persecuted by this for the rest never recover, his wife will be i persecuted by this for the rest of her life — persecuted by this for the rest of her life it — persecuted by this for the rest of her life it is— persecuted by this for the rest of her life. it is sad. _ persecuted by this for the rest of her life. it is sad. it— persecuted by this for the rest of her life. it is sad. it is— persecuted by this for the rest of her life. it is sad.— her life. it is sad. it is sad. ma be her life. it is sad. it is sad. maybe he _ her life. it is sad. it is sad. maybe he tried _ her life. it is sad. it is sad. maybe he tried to - her life. it is sad. it is sad. maybe he tried to commit | her life. it is sad. it is sad. - maybe he tried to commit suicide, her life. it is sad. it is sad. _ maybe he tried to commit suicide, we don't know _ maybe he tried to commit suicide, we don't know hie — maybe he tried to commit suicide, we don't know. ~ ., �* ,, ., ., maybe he tried to commit suicide, we don't know-— don't know. we don't know and if there was a _ don't know. we don't know and if there was a god, _ don't know. we don't know and if there was a god, we _ don't know. we don't know and if there was a god, we would i don't know. we don't know and if there was a god, we would pray. | there was a god, we would pray. every right minded person will be wishing him well and his family and the otherfamily, who wishing him well and his family and the other family, who seemed to be riven by all of this and all of those who have been so tragically touched by this affair. let me give you the sun statement... the allegations published by the sun were always very serious. further serious allegations have emerged in the past few days. it is right that

the past few days. it is right that the bbc�*s corporate investigation team continue to investigate these thoroughly and deals with them and in a way they think is appropriate. the sun will cooperate with the bbc�*s internal investigation process. we will provide the bbc team with confidential and a redacted dossier containing serious and wide—ranging allegations, which we have received, including some from bbc personnel. the sun has no plans to publish further allegations. we must also reemphasise that the sun, at no point in our original story, alleged criminality. and also took the decision, neitherto criminality. and also took the decision, neither to name mr edwards nor the young person involved in the allegations. suggestions about possible criminality were first made at a later date by other media outlets, including the bbc. from the

outset, we have reported the story about two concerned and frustrated parents who made a complaint to the bbc about the behaviour of a presenter and payments from him that fuelled the drug habit of a young person. that statement from the sun, we are asking this morning, a general conversation about the media, but specifically, did the sun get it wrong? get in touch. and let's get the news. the bbc investigation into the conduct of huw edwards is resuming. police announced yesterday that allegations he paid a young person for sexually explicit photos did not involve criminality. huw edwards was identified as the bbc presenter at the centre of the claims by his wife — who says he's being treated in hospitalfor serious mental health issues. junior doctors in england have

begun a five day strike over a pay dispute — described by their union as the longest in nhs history. the british medical association is urging ministers to produce what it called a "credible" offer of higher salaries. downing street says the latest walk—out would put patient safety at risk. a decision on how much of a pay rise workers in the public sector will get this year is expected to be made as soon as today. ministers have had the recommendations from pay review bodies for several weeks. a heatwave is gripping parts of continental europe. temperatures could exceed a0 degrees in parts of spain, france, greece and italy. a red alert warning has been issued for ten italian cities including rome and florence. england's kate cross says taking the "aura" away from australia has been pivotal in their women's ashes turnaround. a thrilling two—wicket victory in the first one day international

drew the two teams level on points. england had been 6—0 down, but both teams now have six points each with two odis to play. there'll be a first time winner of the women's title at wimbledon this year, and in the first semifinal of the day ukrainan wild card elina svitolina plays unseeded czech marketa vondrousova. then in the second semi, last year's beaten finalist ons jabeur takes on belarusian second seed areena sabalenka. treble winners manchester city received more payments than any other club from fifa for releasing players for last year's world cup in qatar. city received £3.54 million from the world governing body. and the scottish open has got under way at the renaissance club in north berwick this morning. among the players to tee off in the last hour were england's matt fitzpatrick, and northern ireland's rory mcilroy. mcilroy is three under after five holes.

we have got clive coleman, former bbc legal correspondent, we have your calls and thoughts coming in. coming up at10.00: public sector pay — is 6.5% fair? you can call an text. it includes prison officers, civil servants.

6.5% has been recommended. inflation running higher than that, it was 8.7% in may. the cabinet office is reportedly split on this one. rishi sunak says any pay rise and needs to be responsible and when it comes to teacher's pay, where is the money coming from? from the existing budget, some say. think of the problems that will cause when they need to buy some books. how much of a pay increase is fair. junior doctors starting a five—day strike today. if you are in the private sector, what should the government do. how is your play holding up against inflation. all that coming up against inflation. all that coming up at ten o'clock.

let's go to sue in gateshead. the floor is yours. what would you like to say this morning? i floor is yours. what would you like to say this morning?— floor is yours. what would you like to say this morning? i think the sun and the bbc — to say this morning? i think the sun and the bbc have _ to say this morning? i think the sun and the bbc have got _ to say this morning? i think the sun and the bbc have got it _ to say this morning? i think the sun and the bbc have got it wrong. i i and the bbc have got it wrong. i think— and the bbc have got it wrong. i think the — and the bbc have got it wrong. i think the sun wanted a sensationalist story. the bbc has done _ sensationalist story. the bbc has done wall—to—wall coverage and at the bottom of all this is a man with serious _ the bottom of all this is a man with serious mental health issues. he had documented mental health issues in the past _ documented mental health issues in the past. and the behaviour during a mental— the past. and the behaviour during a mental health crisis can completely change _ mental health crisis can completely change the personality, the way you act. change the personality, the way you act~ i_ change the personality, the way you act ithink— change the personality, the way you act. i think his conduct is a direct link to— act. i think his conduct is a direct link to his — act. i think his conduct is a direct link to his mental health issues. i think— link to his mental health issues. i think he _ link to his mental health issues. i think he is— link to his mental health issues. i think he is being pushed too far and

ithink— think he is being pushed too far and i think he _ think he is being pushed too far and i think he needs the coverage to stop and — i think he needs the coverage to stop and he needs some peace to try and recover— stop and he needs some peace to try and recover from what he's going through — and recover from what he's going through i— and recover from what he's going through. i know this because i have been _ through. i know this because i have been there. — through. i know this because i have been there, i have had serious mental— been there, i have had serious mental health issues. it is been there, i have had serious mental health issues.- mental health issues. it is all ve , mental health issues. it is all very. very — mental health issues. it is all very. very sad. _ mental health issues. it is all very, very sad, isn't - mental health issues. it is all very, very sad, isn't it? i mental health issues. it is all very, very sad, isn't it? do i mental health issues. it is all i very, very sad, isn't it? do you think sometimes the media should step back and think?— step back and think? there is the du of step back and think? there is the duty of care _ step back and think? there is the duty of care for — step back and think? there is the duty of care for people _ step back and think? there is the duty of care for people who i step back and think? there is the duty of care for people who have | duty of care for people who have mental _ duty of care for people who have mental health issues. in this environment today, it is all about mental— environment today, it is all about mental health matters, mental health awareness _ mental health matters, mental health awareness. everyone was aware that huw edwards had had mental health issues _ huw edwards had had mental health issues. and they must have known before _ issues. and they must have known before they — issues. and they must have known before they put those headlines in the papers, the bbc must have known, as an _ the papers, the bbc must have known, as an employer, this was going to have _ as an employer, this was going to have a _ as an employer, this was going to have a serious detrimental effect on

huw edwards' mental health and pushing — huw edwards' mental health and pushing him and pushing him. and now he is in _ pushing him and pushing him. and now he is in hospital. mental health, it is not _ he is in hospital. mental health, it is not like — he is in hospital. mental health, it is not like going in for a broken bone. — is not like going in for a broken bone. it— is not like going in for a broken bone. it is— is not like going in for a broken bone, it is complex to cure and the state _ bone, it is complex to cure and the state is _ bone, it is complex to cure and the state is mental health is in at the moment. — state is mental health is in at the moment. i— state is mental health is in at the moment, i think it is going to be a lon- moment, i think it is going to be a long road — moment, i think it is going to be a long road for him. it is made worse by all— long road for him. it is made worse by all the _ long road for him. it is made worse by all the wall—to—wall coverage of it. by all the wall-to-wall coverage of it. , ., , ,, it. the stories in the sun newspaper. _ it. the stories in the sun newspaper, do _ it. the stories in the sun newspaper, do you i it. the stories in the sun | newspaper, do you agree it. the stories in the sun i newspaper, do you agree that it. the stories in the sun - newspaper, do you agree that the it. the stories in the sun _ newspaper, do you agree that the bbc had to cover it because the ghost of jimmy savile stalks these corridors and... i jimmy savile stalks these corridors and... . , ., ., ., and... i am very aware of the history- _ and... i am very aware of the history- the _ and... i am very aware of the history. the gross _ and... i am very aware of the history. the gross derelictionj history. the gross dereliction there, history. the gross dereliction there. and — history. the gross dereliction there, and rolf— history. the gross dereliction there, and rolf harris, i history. the gross dereliction there, and rolf harris, we i history. the gross dereliction i there, and rolf harris, we were damned if we did and damned if we didn't, but i think we had to,

didn't, but i think we had to, didn't we?— didn't, but i think we had to, didn't we? . ~ �* �* didn't, but i think we had to, didn't we? , ,, �* �* ., didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it. — didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it, they _ didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it, they had _ didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it, they had to _ didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it, they had to say - didn't we? yes, i think the bbc had to cover it, they had to say there i to cover it, they had to say there was an— to cover it, they had to say there was an investigation going on but it is being _ was an investigation going on but it is being flogged to death, three hours. — is being flogged to death, three hours. it— is being flogged to death, three hours, it is too much. it is all the time _ hours, it is too much. it is all the time my— hours, it is too much. it is all the time my tv _ hours, it is too much. it is all the time. my tv goes on bbc news and it is my— time. my tv goes on bbc news and it is my background news and it is on all day _ is my background news and it is on all day i_ is my background news and it is on all day. i heard it yesterday evening _ all day. i heard it yesterday evening and it was constant. it was about— evening and it was constant. it was about he _ evening and it was constant. it was about he will edwards being the big story _ about he will edwards being the big story~ i_ about he will edwards being the big story. i think the statement could have _ story. i think the statement could have been— story. i think the statement could have been made saying that he had been named, he was receiving hospital— been named, he was receiving hospital treatment and that we need to leave _ hospital treatment and that we need to leave him to get better. and i think— to leave him to get better. and i think that — to leave him to get better. and i think that would have been more than enough _ think that would have been more than enough by— think that would have been more than enough by the bbc, who really do have a _ enough by the bbc, who really do have a duty of care to an employee. thank— have a duty of care to an employee. thank you _ have a duty of care to an employee. thank you so— have a duty of care to an employee. thank you so much for your considered thoughts this morning,

sue. clive, going to talk to neil wallis, deputy editor on the sun and someone from hacked off and it will be interesting to hear their takes, but clive, you know huw, tell us about him? mr; but clive, you know huw, tell us about him?— but clive, you know huw, tell us about him? g , ., , . but clive, you know huw, tell us abouthim? ., , . ., about him? my personal experience of huw, he is about him? my personal experience of huw. he is a — about him? my personal experience of huw, he is a collaborative, _ huw, he is a collaborative, charming, polite and extremely helpful professional colleague. i have been on the news with him many times and he is someone who is always working in the service of the story, in my experience. some presenters, don't take this personally, you are not one of them, sometimes you feel it is the presenter�*s show and the questions can go all over the show. some of the great presenters, i put eddie mair in that category, they ask you what questions do you want, you are

the correspondence across the story, you know it better than anyone else and you know how to tell the public about it. i put huw in that category, he appreciated that and didn't want to impose himself on the story at all, but he was there in the service of the story to make sure it was told by the corresspondent, who was in possession of all of the facts and had been thinking about a narrative and conveying it in a way the public could understand. that was my experience of huw and it never varied, he was always like that. thank you, clive. neilwallace, former deputy editor of the sun, hello and good morning. good morning. evan harris, former director of hacked off. i would like you to talk to each other about this, a frank exchange of views. should the sun have gone with this story in the first place? yes.

should the sun have gone with this story in the first place?— story in the first place? yes, i think it is _ story in the first place? yes, i think it is a — story in the first place? yes, i think it is a serious _ story in the first place? yes, i think it is a serious story. it . story in the first place? yes, i think it is a serious story. it is story in the first place? yes, i i think it is a serious story. it is a major story and i think it is a story that the proof of that is it has been on the front page of every newspaper, it has been the lead item and just about every radio, tv news bulletin ever since. it is a classic example of the powerful being held to account. can we just, at some point, i absolutely think it is a tragedy that huw edwards is in hospital today and about his mental health condition. but there is anotherfamily health condition. but there is another family involved in this. there is the parents who were deeply deeply concerned about a vulnerable adult, who, according to them, was

paid £35,000 over a number of years for sexually explicit pictures, they say. let's not forget that they are worthy of consideration as well. don't just worthy of consideration as well. don'tjust brush them aside and suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half— suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half of _ suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half of half— suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half of half a _ suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half of half a point, i suggest they don't matter. i think neil has half of half a point, that l neil has half of half a point, that if the _ neil has half of half a point, that if the story had been true and ethically— if the story had been true and ethically reported, then it would have _ ethically reported, then it would have been legitimate to publish it and for— have been legitimate to publish it and for other people to follow it up. and for other people to follow it up but— and for other people to follow it up. but there are several problems with that _ up. but there are several problems with that scenario and it is interesting, by the way, that the sun were — interesting, by the way, that the sun were brave enough to publish a false. _ sun were brave enough to publish a false, misleading story but have not been brave — false, misleading story but have not been brave enough to be interviewed by anyone. _ been brave enough to be interviewed by anyone, not even their own team talk tv— by anyone, not even their own team talk tv gb— by anyone, not even their own team

talk tv gb news right—wing bubble, it is remarkable that. but that is the best— it is remarkable that. but that is the best that can come up in terms of defence — the best that can come up in terms of defence. let's briefly identified three _ of defence. let's briefly identified three problems with that story. firstly. — three problems with that story. firstly, they knew who edwards' mental— firstly, they knew who edwards' mental health issues before they publish. — mental health issues before they publish, because it is in the public domain _ publish, because it is in the public domain and — publish, because it is in the public domain and neil isn't going to disagree — domain and neil isn't going to disagree because that would have been _ disagree because that would have been known. they knew they were dealing _ been known. they knew they were dealing with someone vulnerable, which _ dealing with someone vulnerable, which means they have to get it right _ which means they have to get it right. secondly, they never told their— right. secondly, they never told their readers that the parents were estranged — their readers that the parents were estranged from the child. the third thing _ estranged from the child. the third thing they— estranged from the child. the third thing they never did was to say the so-called _ thing they never did was to say the so—called victim, the 20—year—old person— so—called victim, the 20—year—old person didn't accept that the story true _ person didn't accept that the story true. fourthly, they didn't tell their— true. fourthly, they didn't tell their readers, the public, that the so-called — their readers, the public, that the so—called victim he or she wasn't a victim. _ so—called victim he or she wasn't a victim. that — so—called victim he or she wasn't a

victim, that nothing inappropriate or unlawful. and finally, they implied — or unlawful. and finally, they implied there was a criminal offence. _ implied there was a criminal offence, the headline, second headline — offence, the headline, second headline they ran was top bbc staff pay child. _ headline they ran was top bbc staff pay child, not true, for sex pictures— pay child, not true, for sex pictures will face the cops and could — pictures will face the cops and could face years in prison, expert says _ could face years in prison, expert says now— could face years in prison, expert says. now they say, we never meant to say— says. now they say, we never meant to say there _ says. now they say, we never meant to say there was any criminal activity _ to say there was any criminal activity it— to say there was any criminal activity. it is unethical and it is because — activity. it is unethical and it is because the sun will stop at nothing to damage _ because the sun will stop at nothing to damage a commercial rival, the bbc _ to damage a commercial rival, the bbc. ., ., , , bbc. you are suggesting the last bit, sor bbc. you are suggesting the last bit. sorry to _ bbc. you are suggesting the last bit, sorry to come _ bbc. you are suggesting the last bit, sorry to come in _ bbc. you are suggesting the last bit, sorry to come in because i. bbc. you are suggesting the last i bit, sorry to come in because i said i wouldn't, butjust to clarify, when they said they never intimated or suggested that there had been criminality, you think the sun is being less than honest?- criminality, you think the sun is being less than honest? yes, i would no further being less than honest? yes, i would go further than _ being less than honest? yes, i would go further than that. _ being less than honest? yes, i would go further than that. but _ being less than honest? yes, i would go further than that. but i _ go further than that. but i understand you are a diplomat. gk, go further than that. but i

understand you are a diplomat. ok, i aet ou. understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you- neil? _ understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you. neil? well, _ understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you. neil? well, all— understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you. neil? well, all i _ understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you. neil? well, alli can - understand you are a diplomat. ok, i get you. neil? well, alli can say i get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this get you. neil? well, alli can say is. this is— get you. neil? well, alli can say is. this is a _ get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this is a story _ get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this is a story that _ get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this is a story that is - get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this is a story that is yet - get you. neil? well, alli can say is, this is a story that is yet to i is, this is a story that is yet to be specifically denied. there are a number of straightforward allegations and although there was a general comment made that this was, i think the word used was rubbish, or something. the specific issues have yet to be denied. the important thing is, if you look at the bbc, what the bbc has done since is to run several stories themselves replicating the same scenario, effectively. that was outlined in the sun's stories. you saw last night, at the same time as the

announcement was made identifying huw edwards and that he was in hospital, the bbc were preparing and late delivered another saga about allegations from inside the bbc of misbehaviour. and what came out of that and what is a major part of this, isjust how that and what is a major part of this, is just how much safeguarding their is inside the bbc. there are your own staff complaining that they were affected by this. the original complaint was made to the bbc, and let's not forget, they went to the police, the family went to the police, the family went to the police and the bbc to try to stop huw edwards paying vast sums of money to their crack addicted youngster. they only turned to the

sun... ~ ., �* youngster. they only turned to the sun... ~ .,�* ., ., , . ., sun... we don't have any evidence of this. sun... we don't have any evidence of this- exactly- — sun... we don't have any evidence of this. exactly. exactly, _ sun... we don't have any evidence of this. exactly. exactly, there - sun. .. we don't have any evidence of this. exactly. exactly, there is- sun... we don't have any evidence of this. exactly. exactly, there is no - this. exactly. exactly, there is no evidence for _ this. exactly. exactly, there is no evidence for that _ this. exactly. exactly, there is no evidence for that except - this. exactly. exactly, there is no evidence for that except the - this. exactly. exactly, there is no evidence for that except the sun | evidence for that except the sun says it. — evidence for that except the sun says it, which does not amount to much _ says it, which does not amount to much evidence. the problem is, the sun, _ much evidence. the problem is, the sun. neil_ much evidence. the problem is, the sun, neil has not addressed any of the points— sun, neil has not addressed any of the points i— sun, neil has not addressed any of the points i raised about the sun's unethical— the points i raised about the sun's unethical reporting and the fundamental point, the sun is claiming — fundamental point, the sun is claiming a public interest story, but it_ claiming a public interest story, but it would lose, because it didn't put the _ but it would lose, because it didn't put the point of view of the unnamed presenter— put the point of view of the unnamed presenter which isjournalism put the point of view of the unnamed presenter which is journalism 101, one of— presenter which is journalism 101, one of the — presenter which is journalism 101, one of the requirements of the old case law — one of the requirements of the old case law. and secondly, they didn't publish _ case law. and secondly, they didn't publish the — case law. and secondly, they didn't publish the denial of the person concerned, which means they were not being _

concerned, which means they were not being sincere in how they were reporting — being sincere in how they were reporting it. but what makes the point _ reporting it. but what makes the point that— reporting it. but what makes the point that needs to be addressed attout— point that needs to be addressed about the — point that needs to be addressed about the bbc's approach here... we have about the bbc's approach here... we. have an about the bbc's approach here... , have an internal investigation ongoing. have an internal investigation on . oin . . . have an internal investigation onaioin. . g , ongoing. indeed, and post jimmy savile, ithink— ongoing. indeed, and post jimmy savile, i think the _ ongoing. indeed, and post jimmy savile, |thinkthe 33c— ongoing. indeed, and post jimmy savile, i think the bbc are - ongoing. indeed, and post jimmy savile, i think the bbc are now. savile, i think the bbc are now overcompensating for their failures in respect — overcompensating for their failures in respect of rolf harris and jimmy savile. _ in respect of rolf harris and jimmy savile, because i don't think it should — savile, because i don't think it should have led the news at the time when _ should have led the news at the time when boris _ should have led the news at the time when borisjohnson hasn't handed over the _ when borisjohnson hasn't handed over the phone and other things going _ over the phone and other things going on— over the phone and other things going on in ukraine. 50 over the phone and other things going on in ukraine. sol over the phone and other things going on in ukraine. 50 i think it has been— going on in ukraine. 50 i think it has been overdone and i think the probtem _ has been overdone and i think the probtem is, — has been overdone and i think the problem is, the bbc and other broadcasters are scared of the power of murdoch — broadcasters are scared of the power of murdoch. i have said it before, it is time — of murdoch. i have said it before, it is time the bbc, when it is faced with what— it is time the bbc, when it is faced with what is— it is time the bbc, when it is faced with what is a clear campaign to undermine _ with what is a clear campaign to undermine it, and to reduce its funding — undermine it, and to reduce its funding and to move it out of the market _ funding and to move it out of the market should get off its knees and fi-ht market should get off its knees and fight back—

market should get off its knees and fight back and start investigating the sun — fight back and start investigating the sun. because if you look at allegations of bullying and sexual harassment at the sun, you won't have _ harassment at the sun, you won't have to _ harassment at the sun, you won't have to look far. every large organisation has these allegations against _ organisation has these allegations against them, i am not saying the bbc doesn't, or the against them, i am not saying the bbc doesn't, orthe nhs, who against them, i am not saying the bbc doesn't, or the nhs, who are used _ bbc doesn't, or the nhs, who are used to— bbc doesn't, or the nhs, who are used to work for all parliament doesn't — used to work for all parliament doesn't either. but the sun, who have _ doesn't either. but the sun, who have nondisclosure agreements with numbers _ have nondisclosure agreements with numbers of staff, gagging clauses which _ numbers of staff, gagging clauses which they rage against when anyone else which they rage against when anyone etse is— which they rage against when anyone else is doing it, the hypocrisy is astonishing and i think the bbc shoutd — astonishing and i think the bbc should start getting a bit more self—confidence, yes, report on itself— self—confidence, yes, report on itself and — self—confidence, yes, report on itself and not go over—the—top, which _ itself and not go over—the—top, which i — itself and not go over—the—top, which i think it has done. this itself and not go over-the-top, which i think it has done. this is the e-mail_ which i think it has done. this is the e-mail from _ which i think it has done. this is the e-mail from tim _ which i think it has done. this is the e-mailfrom tim davie, - which i think it has done. this is the e-mail from tim davie, the | the e—mailfrom tim davie, the director—general last night. many of you will have read the words of huw�*s wife, it is a reminder the last few days has seen personal life played out in public and at the heart of this of people and their families. this will be a difficult

time for many after a challenging few days. i want to ensure you our immediate concern is the duty of care to all involved. also this afternoon the metropolitan police and south wales police confirmed they would be taking no further action following an assessment of information provided to them. as you know, we were asked to pose our fact—finding investigations until that assessment has been concluded and it now is important we want to continue with this work and we will follow due process. this remains a very complex set of circumstances, and our aim must be to navigate through this with care and consideration in line with bbc values. usefulto consideration in line with bbc values. useful to hearfrom both of you evan and also neil. tim in harrogate, and humour in birmingham. hello, let's take it to the people, what do you think?— hello, let's take it to the people, what do you think? basically i would 'ust like to

what do you think? basically i would just like to first _ what do you think? basically i would just like to first of— what do you think? basically i would just like to first of all— what do you think? basically i would just like to first of all share - what do you think? basically i would just like to first of all share my - just like to first of all share my thoughts — just like to first of all share my thoughts to huw and his family and i would _ thoughts to huw and his family and i would like _ thoughts to huw and his family and i would like to address something that is very— would like to address something that is very important. myself have witnessed an uncle who went through something _ witnessed an uncle who went through something very similar. it wasn't to this extent, — something very similar. it wasn't to this extent, but he did go through something similar to this, abnormal behaviour— something similar to this, abnormal behaviour which was totally not him, he just— behaviour which was totally not him, he just wasn't himself. it happened at a party— he just wasn't himself. it happened at a party and it was later told by his wife _ at a party and it was later told by his wife he — at a party and it was later told by his wife he is going through something very serious and he is quite _ something very serious and he is quite confused and we are investigating it. that came back to my mind _ investigating it. that came back to my mind yesterday when i read the story— my mind yesterday when i read the story about — my mind yesterday when i read the story about huw and i thought, this is a mental— story about huw and i thought, this is a mental health issue, when his wife came — is a mental health issue, when his wife came forward about it. ijust felt so _ wife came forward about it. ijust felt so sad — wife came forward about it. ijust felt so sad for him because of everything that has been appointed by the _ everything that has been appointed by the sun and social media, it is

absolutely, — by the sun and social media, it is absolutely, you know, heartbreaking with what— absolutely, you know, heartbreaking with what has happened. there is no evidence _ with what has happened. there is no evidence that has been declared, he hasn't _ evidence that has been declared, he hasn't had _ evidence that has been declared, he hasn't had the chance to come forward — hasn't had the chance to come forward about it. the sun should have _ forward about it. the sun should have given — forward about it. the sun should have given all the evidence to the bbc and _ have given all the evidence to the bbc and allowed them to handle it. if bbc and allowed them to handle it. if huw— bbc and allowed them to handle it. if huw was— bbc and allowed them to handle it. if huw was still working, but to come _ if huw was still working, but to come forward and all the allegations and completely destroy his reputation in this way and now they have realised he has been admitted to hospital and he has mental health issues, _ to hospital and he has mental health issues, they have taken a step back and saying. — issues, they have taken a step back and saying, oh, dear, we don't want to do— and saying, oh, dear, we don't want to do this _ and saying, oh, dear, we don't want to do this and — and saying, oh, dear, we don't want to do this and we don't want to do that _ to do this and we don't want to do that we — to do this and we don't want to do that. we have got a little run out of this, _ that. we have got a little run out of this, but— that. we have got a little run out of this, but their statement does have _ of this, but their statement does have a _ of this, but their statement does have a hint — of this, but their statement does have a hint of... of this, but their statement does have a hint of. . ._ of this, but their statement does have a hint of... they are handing their dossier _ have a hint of... they are handing their dossier to _

have a hint of... they are handing their dossier to the _ have a hint of... they are handing their dossier to the bbc _ have a hint of... they are handing their dossier to the bbc and - have a hint of... they are handing| their dossier to the bbc and thank you and all the best to your family and your uncle. tim in harrogate, have your say. and your uncle. tim in harrogate, have your say-— and your uncle. tim in harrogate, have our sa . .. g have your say. good morning. my view and it is the — have your say. good morning. my view and it is the whole _ have your say. good morning. my view and it is the whole affair _ have your say. good morning. my view and it is the whole affair is _ have your say. good morning. my view and it is the whole affair is very - and it is the whole affair is very sad reflection _ and it is the whole affair is very sad reflection on _ and it is the whole affair is very sad reflection on society- and it is the whole affair is very sad reflection on society todayl and it is the whole affair is very. sad reflection on society today and our obsession _ sad reflection on society today and our obsession with _ sad reflection on society today and our obsession with celebrity, - sad reflection on society today and our obsession with celebrity, not l our obsession with celebrity, not only building _ our obsession with celebrity, not only building up _ our obsession with celebrity, not only building up as— our obsession with celebrity, not only building up as celebrities, l our obsession with celebrity, not l only building up as celebrities, but then being — only building up as celebrities, but then being very— only building up as celebrities, but then being very quick— only building up as celebrities, but then being very quick and - then being very quick and particularly _ then being very quick and particularly the _ then being very quick and particularly the gutter- then being very quick and i particularly the gutter press, then being very quick and - particularly the gutter press, for want _ particularly the gutter press, for want of— particularly the gutter press, for want of a — particularly the gutter press, for want of a better— particularly the gutter press, for want of a better word, - particularly the gutter press, for want of a better word, to - particularly the gutter press, for want of a better word, to drag . particularly the gutter press, for. want of a better word, to drag them down _ want of a better word, to drag them down the _ want of a better word, to drag them down the sun _ want of a better word, to drag them down. the sun statement _ want of a better word, to drag them down. the sun statement this - want of a better word, to drag them i down. the sun statement this morning is almost _ down. the sun statement this morning is almost laughable _ down. the sun statement this morning is almost laughable in _ down. the sun statement this morning is almost laughable in the _ down. the sun statement this morning is almost laughable in the sense - is almost laughable in the sense they said — is almost laughable in the sense they said they— is almost laughable in the sense they said they didn't _ is almost laughable in the sense they said they didn't make - they said they didn't make allegations _ they said they didn't make allegations of— they said they didn't make allegations of criminality. i they said they didn't make - allegations of criminality. that may be technically— allegations of criminality. that may be technically correct, _ allegations of criminality. that may be technically correct, but - allegations of criminality. that may be technically correct, but they - be technically correct, but they implied — be technically correct, but they implied it — be technically correct, but they implied it in _ be technically correct, but they implied it in the _ be technically correct, but they implied it in the headlines- be technically correct, but they implied it in the headlines they be technically correct, but they - implied it in the headlines they ran on successive _ implied it in the headlines they ran on successive days. _ implied it in the headlines they ran on successive days. those - implied it in the headlines they ran on successive days. those of- implied it in the headlines they ran on successive days. those of us i implied it in the headlines they ran. on successive days. those of us with longer _ on successive days. those of us with longer memories _ on successive days. those of us with longer memories know _ on successive days. those of us with longer memories know they- on successive days. those of us with longer memories know they don't i on successive days. those of us with . longer memories know they don't have a very— longer memories know they don't have a very strong _ longer memories know they don't have a very strong track— longer memories know they don't have a very strong track record _ longer memories know they don't have a very strong track record in _ a very strong track record in creating _ a very strong track record in creating stories— a very strong track record in creating stories and - a very strong track record in creating stories and makingj a very strong track record in - creating stories and making implied

allegations, — creating stories and making implied allegations, toast _ creating stories and making implied allegations, toast the _ creating stories and making implied allegations, toast the hillsboroughl allegations, toast the hillsborough disaster— allegations, toast the hillsborough disaster and — allegations, toast the hillsborough disaster and the _ allegations, toast the hillsborough disaster and the subsequent - allegations, toast the hillsboroughl disaster and the subsequent impact being _ disaster and the subsequent impact being liverpool. _ disaster and the subsequent impact being liverpool, where _ disaster and the subsequent impact being liverpool, where they- disaster and the subsequent impact being liverpool, where they made i being liverpool, where they made unfounded — being liverpool, where they made unfounded and _ being liverpool, where they made unfounded and malicious - being liverpool, where they made . unfounded and malicious allegations about— unfounded and malicious allegations about liverpool _ unfounded and malicious allegations about liverpool fans _ unfounded and malicious allegations about liverpool fans allegedly - about liverpool fans allegedly pickpocketing _ about liverpool fans allegedly pickpocketing victims - about liverpool fans allegedly pickpocketing victims while i about liverpool fans allegedly . pickpocketing victims while they about liverpool fans allegedly - pickpocketing victims while they lay dying _ pickpocketing victims while they lay dying i_ pickpocketing victims while they lay dying iiust— pickpocketing victims while they lay dying iiust think— pickpocketing victims while they lay dying. i just think whatever- pickpocketing victims while they lay dying. i just think whatever has i dying. ijust think whatever has happened — dying. ijust think whatever has happened in— dying. ijust think whatever has happened in the _ dying. ijust think whatever has happened in the personal- dying. ijust think whatever has happened in the personal life . dying. ijust think whatever has| happened in the personal life of dying. i just think whatever has i happened in the personal life of the presenter— happened in the personal life of the presenter should _ happened in the personal life of the presenter should stay— happened in the personal life of the presenter should stay private. i happened in the personal life of the presenter should stay private. the i presenter should stay private. the police _ presenter should stay private. the police have — presenter should stay private. the police have investigated _ presenter should stay private. the police have investigated and - presenter should stay private. thej police have investigated and found there _ police have investigated and found there is _ police have investigated and found there is no — police have investigated and found there is no criminality, _ police have investigated and found there is no criminality, no - police have investigated and found there is no criminality, no case i police have investigated and found there is no criminality, no case tol there is no criminality, no case to pursue _ there is no criminality, no case to pursue in— there is no criminality, no case to pursue in that _ there is no criminality, no case to pursue in that case. _ there is no criminality, no case to pursue in that case. he _ there is no criminality, no case to pursue in that case. he has - there is no criminality, no case to pursue in that case. he has donel pursue in that case. he has done nothing — pursue in that case. he has done nothing illegal, _ pursue in that case. he has done nothing illegal, whatever- pursue in that case. he has done nothing illegal, whatever our. nothing illegal, whatever our individual— nothing illegal, whatever our individual moral— nothing illegal, whatever our individual moraljudgments, i nothing illegal, whatever our- individual moraljudgments, these individual moral judgments, these things— individual moraljudgments, these things happen _ individual moraljudgments, these things happen in— individual moraljudgments, these things happen in society, - individual moraljudgments, these things happen in society, it - individual moraljudgments, these i things happen in society, it doesn't detract _ things happen in society, it doesn't detract from — things happen in society, it doesn't detract from his _ things happen in society, it doesn't detract from his ability— things happen in society, it doesn't detract from his ability as - things happen in society, it doesn't detract from his ability as a - things happen in society, it doesn't detract from his ability as a great l detract from his ability as a great broadcaster— detract from his ability as a great broadcaster and _ detract from his ability as a great broadcaster and a _ detract from his ability as a great broadcaster and a value - detract from his ability as a great i broadcaster and a value presenter and we _ broadcaster and a value presenter and we shouldn't _ broadcaster and a value presenter and we shouldn't be _ broadcaster and a value presenter and we shouldn't be attaching i broadcaster and a value presenter. and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment _ and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment to— and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment to those _ and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment to those who _ and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment to those who earn - and we shouldn't be attaching moral judgment to those who earn their. judgment to those who earn their living _ judgment to those who earn their living is— judgment to those who earn their living is and — judgment to those who earn their living is and just _ judgment to those who earn their living is and just because - judgment to those who earn their living is and just because their. living is and just because their

salaries — living is and just because their salaries and _ living is and just because their salaries and their— living is and just because their salaries and their "celebrity i salaries and their "celebrity status". _ salaries and their "celebrity status", that _ salaries and their "celebrity status", that shouldn't i salaries and their "celebrity status", that shouldn't putl salaries and their "celebrity i status", that shouldn't put them salaries and their "celebrity - status", that shouldn't put them in the firing _ status", that shouldn't put them in the firing line — status", that shouldn't put them in the firing line for— status", that shouldn't put them in the firing line for allegations - status", that shouldn't put them in the firing line for allegations that l the firing line for allegations that appear— the firing line for allegations that appear very— the firing line for allegations that appear very complex— the firing line for allegations that appear very complex and - the firing line for allegations that i appear very complex and unfounded. it appear very complex and unfounded. it should _ appear very complex and unfounded. it should be — appear very complex and unfounded. it should be a — appear very complex and unfounded. it should be a matter _ appear very complex and unfounded. it should be a matter for— appear very complex and unfounded. it should be a matter for the - it should be a matter for the police, — it should be a matter for the police, it _ it should be a matter for the police, it should _ it should be a matter for the police, it should be - it should be a matter for the police, it should be reported it should be a matter for the i police, it should be reported in it should be a matter for the - police, it should be reported in the mainstream — police, it should be reported in the mainstream media. _ police, it should be reported in the mainstream media. personally, i. police, it should be reported in the i mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed — mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed the _ mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed the bbc— mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed the bbc has _ mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed the bbc has felt - mainstream media. personally, lam disappointed the bbc has felt the i disappointed the bbc has felt the need to— disappointed the bbc has felt the need to actually— disappointed the bbc has felt the need to actually suspend - disappointed the bbc has felt the need to actually suspend huw i disappointed the bbc has felt the i need to actually suspend huw edwards in the _ need to actually suspend huw edwards in the light— need to actually suspend huw edwards in the light of— need to actually suspend huw edwards in the light of such _ need to actually suspend huw edwards in the light of such tissue _ need to actually suspend huw edwards in the light of such tissue thin - in the light of such tissue thin allegations, _ in the light of such tissue thin allegations, without- in the light of such tissue thin i allegations, without foundation. thank— allegations, without foundation. thank you. _ allegations, without foundation. thank you. tim~ _ allegations, without foundation. thank you, tim. there - allegations, without foundation. thank you, tim. there is- allegations, without foundation. thank you, tim. there is an- allegations, without foundation. i thank you, tim. there is an internal investigation ongoing and as tim davey said, it is complex. couple of text messages, huw edwards hasn't committed any crime, the person at the heart of this insist they were not coerced. the sun hate the bbc and steered their reporting against it. sympathy the alleged victims of

edwards, it is all about the celebrity and that is from mike in harrogate. and there we leave it and thatis harrogate. and there we leave it and that is it. we are going to talk about public sector pay. let's regroup. let's repair on that one and i will set that out for you in just a moment or two. as ever, thank you very much for all your messages this morning and your contributions. already people are talking about public sector pay, some great text messages coming in. this is the nation's phone in. public sector pay: is 6.5% fair? we're expecting an announcement on a pay rise for public sector workers later. this includes teachers, junior doctors, police, prison officers, civil servants and the armed forces. pay review bodies have

recommended 6% to 6.5%. you know the arguments about inflation — the cabinet is reportedly split on what to do, rishi sunak says any pay rise needs to be responsible. anything over 3.5% would have to be funded through deparmental cuts or savings. so what do you think? do you work in the public sector? junior doctors are starting a five—day strike today over demands for 35%. iam i am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this one. get in touch. and here is the news from bethan holmes. the bbc is resuming its investigation into

the conduct of huw edwards who's been at the centre of claims that he paid a young person for sexually explicit images. yesterday the police said the allegations did not involve criminality. junior doctors in england have started their five—day strike over pay described by their union as the longest in nhs history. downing street says the 35% rise demanded by members of the british medical association is unreasonable and the strike will put patient safety at risk. but the bma is urging ministers to produce what it called a 'credible' offer. the government is expected to decide today how much of a pay rise workers in the public sector will get this year. it's understood pay review bodies are recommending rises of between 6% and 6.5%. new figures suggest the uk economy shrank in may, but not by as much as economists had predicted. gdp fell by 0.1% compared with the month before. it had been forecast we'd see

a bigger drop because of the extra bank holiday in may to mark the king's coronation. some great texts coming in on public sector pay. the question we are asking is, is it enough? 6.5%? can i give you some of those texts? can i exercise my my skills? i can. i work in a secondary school in london, and the whole practice of the government giving any sort of pay rise and not funding it is ridiculous. that would be like me telling a supermarket to pay their staff and i have no idea what is going on in the business. schools are notjust about education. the pastoral side and behaviour management is taking over from education and schools need more support staff to deal with this to allow teachers to teach and the government do not understand that at

all. i would like to ask pretty snap to chat about budgets instead of taking photos with children and then he will understand just how much every pay rise teaching staff or a port star —— support staff need to have and that is fully funded. the public sector need to pay needs to rise alongside inflation. the public sector pay needs to rise alongside inflation. i have been a nurse for 20 years in the nhs and and at the top of my pay grade and can't go any higher and don't get any bonuses at christmas orfor good higher and don't get any bonuses at christmas or for good work for achieving targets like private companies can offer. my husband also works for the public sector and we both work full time and pick up extra shifts, juggling our children. the nhs was applauded a few years ago and now we are being called greedy. if i didn't love myjob as much as i do, i would leave and look for better pay. the issue of staff

shortages will continue and compliance and litigation will arise and we may be looking at the collapse of the nhs as nobody was to commit to long hours in a stressful job with life and death and little awards. great texts. one more. i work in the private sector and my pay increase is nothing more than a 3% performance —related annual rise. i don't have the opportunity to go on strike to try to improve this, but the way things are going it means i get a 7% decrease, 7.65% sounds good to me. paul novak, tuc general secretary, good morning. sounds good to me. paul novak, tuc generalsecretary, good morning. how are you doing? general secretary, good morning. how are you doing?— general secretary, good morning. how are you doing? good morning. maxwell marlow, director _ are you doing? good morning. maxwell marlow, director of _ are you doing? good morning. maxwell marlow, director of research _ are you doing? good morning. maxwell marlow, director of research at - are you doing? good morning. maxwell marlow, director of research at the i marlow, director of research at the adams institute.— adams institute. maxwell, can we afford this? _ adams institute. maxwell, can we afford this? good _ adams institute. maxwell, can we afford this? good morning. i adams institute. maxwell, can we afford this? good morning. no i adams institute. maxwell, can we afford this? good morning. no we can't, but afford this? good morning. no we can't. but it— afford this? good morning. no we can't, but it doesn't _ afford this? good morning. no we can't, but it doesn't mean - afford this? good morning. no we can't, but it doesn't mean we i can't, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and do it. {lilia can't, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop our shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop your argument- _ shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop your argument. the _ shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop your argument. the first _

shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop your argument. the first part, i shouldn't try and do it. ok, develop your argument. the first part, the l your argument. the first part, the text of the — your argument. the first part, the text of the nurse _ your argument. the first part, the text of the nurse he _ your argument. the first part, the text of the nurse he read - your argument. the first part, the text of the nurse he read out i your argument. the first part, the text of the nurse he read out is i text of the nurse he read out is completely correct. we cannot offer bonuses because we have not got any more space to get any more money from tax revenue. let's look at where we get revenue from. taxation. that is making everyone poorer because the tax burden is going up for everybody. you can get it through growth, but as we have seen the economy is not growing. there is a reason why countries with large economies get more tax revenue. finally, borrowing, which isjust over 100% of gdp and the amount of interest payments we make over the year is £110.5 billion, the same size of all of the welfare spending media, including universal credit state pension. so the way we would suggest doing it is to make efficiency reforms and that is not cuts, not austerity, to stuff like digitisation and by using ai and new technologies that can essentially free up the budget and space within

departments and allowing the public sector to do what it does best, which is serve the people of this country well and that is they expect. do public sector pay rises in fuel inflation? there are arguments being put forward saying that you can't compare the private sector pay rises with public sector pay rises. supply and demand have greater impact and it is accepted by economists that supply and demand push up inflation. carry on. if i can. the thing is, the way we see this is the inflation we are having at the moment is monetary. the bank of england during the pandemic printed £1 trillion and this new money came basically out of nowhere. the way inflation works is it is too much money chasing too few things and we don't have the capacity. it is why when rishi sunak

announced as part of his pledges to half inflation. i don't know why he was saying that. it is not down to whitehall to do that, it is down to threadneedle street, the bank of england. we suggest getting andrew bailey out of the bank of england because he has caused this and we don't think it is tighter fiscal problems such as pay rises or it is down to other things like taxation, it is down to how much money we have in the system within economy. so we need very large changes to how the bank of england operates, rather than punishing everyday people with not giving them pay rises. these are two different things. politicians just don't know how inflation work, thatis just don't know how inflation work, that is the problem. you just don't know how inflation work, that is the problem.— that is the problem. you said roblem that is the problem. you said problem is. _ that is the problem. you said problem is, sorry, _ that is the problem. you said problem is, sorry, i- that is the problem. you said problem is, sorry, i drop i that is the problem. you said problem is, sorry, i drop my| that is the problem. you said - problem is, sorry, i drop my phone, threadneedle street have made a mess of it? ~ , ,.. , threadneedle street have made a mess of it? ~ , ,., , , threadneedle street have made a mess of it? absolutely. it is the largest bubble in history, _ of it? absolutely. it is the largest bubble in history, it— of it? absolutely. it is the largest bubble in history, it is— of it? absolutely. it is the largest bubble in history, it is the - of it? absolutely. it is the largest| bubble in history, it is the amount of money in circulation at the

moment, there is too much. put simply, it is not the case of everyday people spending money, it is the fact so much money was dumped into the economy were nothing was happening in the economy, so it all built up. now there is too much money in the system, so we need to find a way of taking the money out of the system to let prices reflect their actual value rather than the inflated value they have now. what inflated value they have now. what about putting _ inflated value they have now. what about putting the _ inflated value they have now. what about putting the money into the system by giving more money to public sector workers? essentially ou are public sector workers? essentially you are rrot _ public sector workers? essentially you are not putting _ public sector workers? essentially you are not putting money - public sector workers? essentially you are not putting money into i public sector workers? essentially | you are not putting money into the system by doing that, you are moving money from elsewhere in the system. when you tax people you are not generating more money, you arejust reallocating it, or redistributing it. that is a political argument in terms of redistribution, but the economics is very clear, it is down to the bank of england, it is not down to whitehall. the financial times and _ down to whitehall. the financial times and others _ down to whitehall. the financial times and others are _ down to whitehall. the financial times and others are reporting i down to whitehall. the financial. times and others are reporting this morning that government departments

have been told to find savings of between two billion and 3 billion becausejeremy hunt says anything because jeremy hunt says anything beyond 3.5% already deemed affordable, including 2% in the treasury, should come from existing budgets. those two words, they strike fear into many public sector workers. teachers think it should come from whitehall budgets, but essentially it will be the education budget and budget for the local primary school, isn't it? yes. budget and budget for the local primary school, isn't it?- primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely _ primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely will _ primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely will be _ primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely will be and - primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely will be and this i primary school, isn't it? yes, it most likely will be and this is i primary school, isn't it? yes, it. most likely will be and this is the problem we have. the government is not minded towards doing proper reform within the civil service and within the public sector at large. a really good case study of this is the passport office. am sure you spoke about it in your show when there were month long queues for passwords and things going wrong. they brought in some really good digital expertise and now you can

get your passport within three weeks. the times says 98% more efficiency in the passport office. it works properly because now it is a very modern, almost company, that provides our passports. they will not be worried about moving their budgets around too much because they have reformed properly and they can probably afford to have an increase in pay. probably afford to have an increase in -a . . ., .,~ probably afford to have an increase in .a _ ., ., �* ., probably afford to have an increase in a. ., ., ~ ., ,, in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute, in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute. you _ in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute, you heard _ in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute, you heard the _ in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute, you heard the man, - in pay. paul novak, the adam smith institute, you heard the man, what| institute, you heard the man, what do you say? paul is the man from the tuc. , ., ., tuc. there is a lot in there. let me sa no tuc. there is a lot in there. let me say no one — tuc. there is a lot in there. let me say no one doubts _ tuc. there is a lot in there. let me say no one doubts that _ tuc. there is a lot in there. let me say no one doubts that there - tuc. there is a lot in there. let me say no one doubts that there are i say no one doubts that there are more _ say no one doubts that there are more ways— say no one doubts that there are more ways to deliver our public services — more ways to deliver our public services as— more ways to deliver our public services as efficiently as possible. but we _ services as efficiently as possible. but we have a crisis right across our public — but we have a crisis right across our public services. we have got an economy— our public services. we have got an economy that is not growing, we saw the figures _ economy that is not growing, we saw the figures that came out today, and that is— the figures that came out today, and that is the _ the figures that came out today, and that is the direct responsibility of

this government. we have got wages stagnant _ this government. we have got wages stagnant and in real terms following over the _ stagnant and in real terms following over the last decade. the average worker— over the last decade. the average worker is— over the last decade. the average worker is £260 a month worse off than we _ worker is £260 a month worse off than we were in 2010. we have got staffing, _ than we were in 2010. we have got staffing, recruitment and retention issues _ staffing, recruitment and retention issues right across our public services _ issues right across our public services. the one thing, the golden thread _ services. the one thing, the golden thread that — services. the one thing, the golden thread that runs through all of this, _ thread that runs through all of this, is— thread that runs through all of this, is a — thread that runs through all of this, is a government that has been asleep _ this, is a government that has been asleep at _ this, is a government that has been asleep at the wheel, whether it is its approach to the economy, a lack of industrial — its approach to the economy, a lack of industrial strategy, and sucking out resources from our public services — out resources from our public services whether they be hospitals, schools _ services whether they be hospitals, schools or — services whether they be hospitals, schools or local councils. we need a fundamental research. it will be interesting today when we have those pay review _ interesting today when we have those pay review body report is being published and what the government response _ published and what the government response will be. i still hold out hope _ response will be. i still hold out hope that — response will be. i still hold out hope that the government will take those _ hope that the government will take those pav— hope that the government will take those pay review body reports seriously— those pay review body reports seriously and deliver real pay rises for public— seriously and deliver real pay rises for public sector workers but crucially— for public sector workers but crucially they have got to be funded because _ crucially they have got to be funded because i_ crucially they have got to be funded because i can tell you, whether it is schools — because i can tell you, whether it is schools or hospitals or anywhere else, _ is schools or hospitals or anywhere else, the _ is schools or hospitals or anywhere else, the idea that there are hundreds— else, the idea that there are

hundreds of millions of pounds sloshing — hundreds of millions of pounds sloshing around waiting to be mopped up sloshing around waiting to be mopped up in efficiency savings in the short— up in efficiency savings in the short term is not realistic. the oint short term is not realistic. the point about — short term is not realistic. the point about the _ short term is not realistic. tue: point about the government short term is not realistic. tte: point about the government being asleep at the wheel, i want to put that to maxwell in a second. he was talking about the difference in what the government does and the bank of england does, threadneedle street, so, chris, in st helens and james in barnsley. sally, not real name in suffolk. not real name, i am always attracted by those cool, sally. good morning. secondary school teacher. what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, aood what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, good morning- _ what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, good morning- i— what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, good morning. i am _ what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, good morning. i am more _ what do you reckon by 6.5%? hello, good morning. i am more concerned good morning. iam more concerned about what your last speaker just said regarding this idea, to rationalisation that when it comes to strikes that there are all these pots of money that we will end up using to fund the pay of the public

sector and in my case teaching. i find it a really sad situation that young people have had quite a lot of disruption to their actual education in recent years. strike why is it is not something any of us would want to do. my heart wants to do it because i believe in everything we were striking for but i couldn't afford to. i am a single parent and have had to go on part—time hours to look at both of my children and i have had to take a pay cut myself and i couldn't afford to stand up for my beliefs and fight with my fellow workers. i think it would be wonderful to think it could be funded properly and not taken out of the school system. that we get paid properly and our value is seen. we are doing more and more for these young people who need us so desperately and extra services more than i ever saw when i first started teaching 20 years ago. these young people deserve better from the government. they are our future and we want to give value to their

education and get great teachers in the classroom who have what they deserve as well.— the classroom who have what they deserve as well. three teachers per unions have — deserve as well. three teachers per unions have strike _ deserve as well. three teachers per unions have strike ballots _ deserve as well. three teachers per unions have strike ballots under- deserve as well. three teachers per| unions have strike ballots under way and the nasuwt voted for strike action on wednesday. will strike action on wednesday. will strike action help really? t action on wednesday. will strike action help really?— action on wednesday. will strike action help really? i know and this is it. i remember _ action help really? i know and this is it. i remember when _ action help really? i know and this is it. i remember when i _ action help really? i know and this is it. i remember when i first - is it. i remember when i first started teaching and strikes happen for other reasons and obviously the laws have changed and we did have the impact because we could literally go on strike. i think it gets misinterpreted now, sadly. i think it is great that we are standing up together and showing our frustration. we can see it if you are watching on screen that we are united and we do want the best for the children, but there is this idea there are all happening at the same time and is it being sensationalised in the media and us being the problem and not where the real heart of the issue is what we are fighting for? , ,,. .,

for? chris in saint helen and attacks. hello, _ for? chris in saint helen and attacks. hello, chris, - for? chris in saint helen and attacks. hello, chris, we'll. for? chris in saint helen and. attacks. hello, chris, we'll be right with you. i want to read out a text. i am a secondary school teacher myself and the weird correlation of us being the bad people are not supporting the children, but the government is not giving us money to support them. i feel bad for the children, it is such a sad situation. no one what the situation. in 20 years of teaching i see it as a change that is needed. good morning, chris, what would you like to say?— would you like to say? well, i fully endorse everything _ would you like to say? well, i fully endorse everything mr— would you like to say? well, i fully endorse everything mr novak - would you like to say? well, i fully endorse everything mr novak said | endorse everything mr novak said earlier _ endorse everything mr novak said earlier. the list you had of the public — earlier. the list you had of the public sector workers who could receive — public sector workers who could receive 6.5% offer, whether you think— receive 6.5% offer, whether you think that — receive 6.5% offer, whether you think that is fair, but we have just been _ think that is fair, but we have just been fobbed off with a 5% pay rise and we _ been fobbed off with a 5% pay rise and we are — been fobbed off with a 5% pay rise and we are told that is all the money— and we are told that is all the money that is available. now they are offering 6.5% to the rest of the public— are offering 6.5% to the rest of the public sector workers and good luck to them _ public sector workers and good luck to them. the 5% we have just had

amounts — to them. the 5% we have just had amounts to— to them. the 5% we have just had amounts to yet another pay cut year—on—year for at least the last decade _ year—on—year for at least the last decade because we have never been offered _ decade because we have never been offered a _ decade because we have never been offered a pay rise in line with inflation _ offered a pay rise in line with inflation. ., offered a pay rise in line with inflation. . ., offered a pay rise in line with inflation. ., . , ., offered a pay rise in line with inflation. ., ., , ., ., inflation. can i read your text? you are fine. inflation. can i read your text? you are fine- sick _ inflation. can i read your text? you are fine. sick and _ inflation. can i read your text? you are fine. sick and tired _ inflation. can i read your text? you are fine. sick and tired of— inflation. can i read your text? you are fine. sick and tired of hearing l are fine. sick and tired of hearing public sector workers and unions crying about not having enough pay rises. we are all struggling. i lost 20% of my income in the last 12 months being self employed and that is not taking inflation into account, plus i get no pension, no sick pay, no paid holidays. teachers, nurses, doctors are making the economic situation worse, they are selfish. that is from carl in bury. chris in st helens, people are saying that. t bury. chris in st helens, people are saying that-— saying that. i feel sorry for his ”liht. i saying that. i feel sorry for his night i am — saying that. i feel sorry for his plight. i am perfectly - saying that. i feel sorry for his plight. i am perfectly entitled| saying that. i feel sorry for his l plight. i am perfectly entitled to defend — plight. i am perfectly entitled to defend my own and my plight means i work with— defend my own and my plight means i work with nurses who are single

mothers — work with nurses who are single mothers who use a food bank. should we just— mothers who use a food bank. should we just put— mothers who use a food bank. should we just put up with that because he puts up— we just put up with that because he puts up with his situation? we are fighting _ puts up with his situation? we are fighting for— puts up with his situation? we are fighting for a better standard of living _ fighting for a better standard of living for— fighting for a better standard of living for ourselves and good luck to him _ living for ourselves and good luck to him should he choose to do the same _ to him should he choose to do the same i_ to him should he choose to do the same iwish— to him should he choose to do the same. i wish he would join with us. james _ same. i wish he would join with us. james in _ same. i wish he would join with us. james in barnsley, a cop. how is your bank balance? it james in barnsley, a cop. how is your bank balance?— james in barnsley, a cop. how is your bank balance? it always could be better, nikki, _ your bank balance? it always could be better, nikki, to _ your bank balance? it always could be better, nikki, to be _ your bank balance? it always could be better, nikki, to be honest. - your bank balance? it always could j be better, nikki, to be honest. but to put this into context, take you straight back to 2008, the credit crunch, property, banks, all the rest of it went pop. what did the government do? they start cutting, fair enough, government do? they start cutting, fairenough, i government do? they start cutting, fair enough, i understand that. what did they cut? they cut public services. so in real effect from 2008 to the present day i have had a 4% 2008 to the present day i have had a li% pay rise over that time.

2008 to the present day i have had a 4% pay rise over that time.— 4% pay rise over that time. labour and 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and _ 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a _ 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a little _ 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a little bit _ 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a little bit of - 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a little bit of lib - 496 pay rise over that time. labour and tory and a little bit of lib dem along the way as well. to and tory and a little bit of lib dem along the way as well.— and tory and a little bit of lib dem along the way as well. to be honest, labour wasn't _ along the way as well. to be honest, labour wasn't anything _ along the way as well. to be honest, labour wasn't anything to _ along the way as well. to be honest, labour wasn't anything to do - along the way as well. to be honest, labour wasn't anything to do with . labour wasn't anything to do with it. it was cameron, clegg and osborne. it. it was cameron, clegg and osborne-— it. it was cameron, clegg and osborne. ., ., :: ::j~'~ it. it was cameron, clegg and osborne. ., ., $1 $13"- osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went — osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went bust _ osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went bust and _ osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went bust and that _ osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went bust and that is - osborne. you said from 2008? that is when it went bust and that is when - when it went bust and that is when everything started to implode. from that time on we have had 4% across that time on we have had 4% across that timespan. that is a 20% pay cut in real terms. that impact on your wage and on your pension. also at the same time, like the lady in teaching, staff retention. you have got people retiring with a vast amount of experience retiring early because they can't see the point of working for £20 an hour and risking their lives for it. i mean, you know, you go to work to pay your bills, don't you? and everybody does that. the love of the job is part of

it, but you go to work to pay your bills. you go to work to put money in a pension pot so you can retire. that is the cut and thrust of it. there is a set of balance scales here, risk against reward. but when i see young cops coming into the job now at 19 or 20 and earning less than somebody serving fries at mcdonald's i look at them and say to them, what on earth are you doing in thisjob? you can get killed at them, what on earth are you doing in this job? you can get killed at any point. d0 this job? you can get killed at any oint. ,. , , this job? you can get killed at any oint. , , | this job? you can get killed at any point-_ i do- i point. do you see my point? i do. risk against _ point. do you see my point? i do. risk against reward. _ point. do you see my point? i do. risk against reward. it _ point. do you see my point? i do. risk against reward. it is - point. do you see my point? i do. risk against reward. it is easy - point. do you see my point? i do. risk against reward. it is easy to l risk against reward. it is easy to sit in the houses of parliament £85,000 a year and an expense account that pays for absolutely everything, a second time, etc, and i won't go on about it. there is no risk there, no risk at all. is there? look at teachers. teachers are being stabbed in the classroom.

that is terrible that story. let me just throw a couple of points to maxwell and paul as well. we are going to go through a teacher's picket line not too far away. maxwell, that point raised about 2008 when it all started to go belly up 2008 when it all started to go belly up and we had the bank crisis and then the coalition came in and i would argue that they were picking up would argue that they were picking up the mess. did they have to be austerity, maxwell? some people say the seeds of all this were sent then. director of adam smith research. i then. director of adam smith research-— then. director of adam smith research. . ., ., , research. i agree wholeheartedly with what the _ research. i agree wholeheartedly with what the tuc _ research. i agree wholeheartedly with what the tuc has _ research. i agree wholeheartedly with what the tuc has said, - research. i agree wholeheartedly| with what the tuc has said, which research. i agree wholeheartedly i with what the tuc has said, which is something you won't hear much of, us and them agreeing. you raise a very good point and this is why it came back to 2008. the productivity crisis, the output per worker in the economy, has been completely stagnant since 2008 and this is partly to do with the economic

policies the government chose in 2010. britain as a whole has invested, if you compare the other t20 economies, much, less in capital and in the businesses that push productivity. i do not think, and it is a view held by a lot of economists, that if we had invested more in the infrastructure, our schools are crumbling and our hospitals are crumbling, our it systems don't work, we just had a police officer on, the police national computer is the same computer, the same infrastructure we have had since 1973. that is the same infrastructure and that affects productivity and cost and salaries. it is the same with the nhs. we were still using fax machines a couple of years ago. it is the same in westminster where, just a few days ago, a great big hole opened up in the top of portcullis house and it looked like a waterfall. the

investment in paying salaries is very significant and the way in which the government went about cutting budgets during austerity, they made cuts to investment. if you are a company doing that you would not do that. you wouldn't start throwing new apple computers out of the window and getting in the old 19805 zx the window and getting in the old 1980s zx spectrums because you think it would cut costs, it is totally illogical. in order to solve the problems for the future we need to look at big reforms, digitisation, investing in infrastructure and capital, or else we will not have the public services we want. wages will continue to be stagnant because of that. productivity is what drives wage growth and salary growth. because our productivity is so low, and that is to do with labour policies that the conservative government have not changed and new conservative policies that they continue to push which are

economically mad, you know... what economically mad, you know... what is mad about — economically mad, you know... what is mad about them? _ economically mad, you know... what is mad about them? let's _ economically mad, you know... what is mad about them? let's take - is mad about them? let's take housin: , is mad about them? let's take housing. for— is mad about them? let's take housing, for example. - is mad about them? let's take housing, for example. a - is mad about them? let's take housing, for example. a lot i is mad about them? let's take housing, for example. a lot of| housing, for example. a lot of listeners will be looking at their mortgages or their rents and i look at my rent and i have no hope of a mortgage in the next 20 years, there is no housing reform because we have this bill from the town and country planning act from the attlee government which basically exists to stop us from building things such as houses and that is why we have got 4.5 million housing units that need to be built, so it is a big deficit. it is why the average young person will not be able to get a mortgage until they are in their mid—30s or 40s. until they are in their mid-30s or 40s. . ., , ., , , 40s. hence all the people in my house at the _ 40s. hence all the people in my house at the moment! - 40s. hence all the people in my house at the moment! paul, i l 40s. hence all the people in my. house at the moment! paul, i will 40s. hence all the people in my- house at the moment! paul, i will be with you in a second but we have to go to simonjones because it is relevant, it is topical, it is happening. simon is outside university college hospital in central london. thejunior university college hospital in central london. the junior doctors' strike. central london. the 'unior doctors' strike. , ., ~ ., .,

strike. tell us more. we are now three hours _ strike. tell us more. we are now three hours or _ strike. tell us more. we are now three hours or so _ strike. tell us more. we are now three hours or so into _ strike. tell us more. we are now three hours or so into this i strike. tell us more. we are now three hours or so into this strike | three hours or so into this strike but it is due to last in total 120 hours, so it is being billed as the biggest single walk—out in nhs history. you can see behind me some of thejunior doctors who history. you can see behind me some of the junior doctors who have walked out today. motorists have been driving past, sounding their horns in support. we have even had a few pedestrians walking past to have stopped and clapped the junior doctors. but it is a divisive issue because this five—day strike is going to result in perhaps more than 100,000 appointments having to be postponed, so it does have a real impact upon patients. but at the heart of this dispute is the matter of pay, unsurprisingly. junior doctors say they want a 35% pay increase to make up for what they say has been years and years of pay increases that have not matched inflation. the government is saying that 35% figure is unrealistic, it is not going to happen. so really

the side seam as far apart as ever. this is the fourth time the junior doctors have gone on strike in england in recent months, but it is hard to see a way out of this. thea;r hard to see a way out of this. they call it -a hard to see a way out of this. they call it pay restoration, _ hard to see a way out of this. they call it pay restoration, don't they? yes, they are talking about those years when they say pay has simply not matched up to the cost of living and that is why they are demanding this 35% figure. what is interesting is we are hearing that the independent pay review body is likely forjunior doctors to likely for junior doctors to recommend in likely forjunior doctors to recommend in the coming year a pay increase of about 6% to 6.5%. speaking to thejunior increase of about 6% to 6.5%. speaking to the junior doctors here this morning they say that would be no way acceptable and would not bring about an end to this dispute. it is notjustjunior doctors who are going to be on strike, five days on strike here. shortly after that you have got basically the senior

doctors, consultants, who are going to go on strike for two days and the radiographers who are going to strike two days. it is going to be a challenging period for the nhs. there is a little notice at the entrance to the hospital here saying to patients if you are looking for emergency care they will only be able to provide emergency care for people who are in genuinely life—threatening situations, otherwise they are saying people will have to look to other parts of the nhs to provide treatment that people may feel they need. thank you ve much people may feel they need. thank you very much indeed, _ people may feel they need. thank you very much indeed, there _ people may feel they need. thank you very much indeed, there he _ people may feel they need. thank you very much indeed, there he is. - people may feel they need. thank you very much indeed, there he is. we i very much indeed, there he is. we are putting some of that stuff to our guests this morning. simon jones, our reporter. the institute for fiscal studies has said, and thatis for fiscal studies has said, and that is an augusta body when they come out with stuff, politicians are very happy to quote it if it agrees with their position and to ignore it if it doesn't, they say, the continuing fall in public sector pay relative to the private sector poses recruitment and retention challenges

for public services and could threaten the government was my ability to deliver on its public service objectives. paul novak, head of the tuc, come back in here. it sounds like a lot of support for the junior doctors. it is an easy clap, isn't it? do you support the consulta nts' isn't it? do you support the consultants' strike? average pay for them is £110,000. n consultants' strike? average pay for them is £110,000.— them is £110,000. i support any u-rou them is £110,000. i support any a-rou of them is £110,000. i support any group of workers _ them is £110,000. i support any group of workers that _ them is £110,000. i support any group of workers that are i them is £110,000. i support any i group of workers that are concerned about seeing a full in their living standards and seeing real terms pay cut. if you are a consultant and in £110,000 you are in a different position than a hospital cleaner maybe £23,000, but i want all workers to see rises in their living standards. it goes back to one of the points that was made by one of your text messages, from carl. i am not interested in driving wedges between different people in the public sector or indeed between people and the public and private sectors. i want to see people in

supermarkets and in the private sector also get pay rises. later this afternoon i will be in amazon and coventry where we are striking for a decent pay rise. there is a wedges crisis in this country across the public and private sector. can i go back to the austerity point because it is important. we are still paying the cost of that austerity programme that george osborne introduced. it caused misery for millions, it decimated our public services and as we found out recently in the covid inquiry, it left us unprepared for the pandemic. but it also sucked demand out of the economy and that is why we have had an economy that has been bubbling along for the last ten years and now we have got no growth in the economy whatsoever. the responsibility for those decisions lie squarely with the government. a key part to get our economy back on its feet is putting money back in the pockets of working people in the public and private sector. our members don't

squirrel their pay rises in tax havens, they go and spend it on the local community. the other thing i would argue very strongly and i have got an opinion piece out of date withjulian richard, the founder of richer sounds, a successful entrepreneur, and we agree that we need to have a national debate about taxation in this country because there are real pressures on living standards and not everybody is going through a cost of living crisis. the city has a two record years for bonuses and i think it is fair to ask those who pay a fairer share of tax. , g ., ., tax. ok, let me bring in john from loudoun. hello, _ tax. ok, let me bring in john from loudoun. hello, john. _ tax. ok, let me bring in john from loudoun. hello, john. hello, i tax. ok, let me bring in john from. loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put our loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put your point _ loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put your point to — loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put your point to paul _ loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put your point to paul novak, i loudoun. hello, john. hello, nikki. put your point to paul novak, the i put your point to paul novak, the tuc general secretary. essentially what i wanted _ tuc general secretary. essentially

what i wanted to _ tuc general secretary. essentially what i wanted to say _ tuc general secretary. essentially what i wanted to say was - tuc general secretary. essentially what i wanted to say was that i tuc general secretary. essentially i what i wanted to say was that people operating _ what i wanted to say was that people operating in the public sector enjoy defined _ operating in the public sector enjoy defined benefit pensions. that is guaranteed inflation linked pensions for iife _ guaranteed inflation linked pensions for iife i_ guaranteed inflation linked pensions for life. i don't think any discussion concerning public sector pay shouid — discussion concerning public sector pay should be discussed without a reference — pay should be discussed without a reference to their index linked pensions _ reference to their index linked pensions. they are gold—plated pensions, — pensions. they are gold—plated pensions, guaranteed by taxpayers, that flourish in the public sector. i believe — that flourish in the public sector. i believe there is something like 6 million _ i believe there is something like 6 million members that benefit from the schemes and they are still open to new— the schemes and they are still open to new members. i think this is often _ to new members. i think this is often ignored, it is like the elephant in the room, it should not be discussed in fear of the public becoming — be discussed in fear of the public becoming aware of it, the general public— becoming aware of it, the general puinc i _ becoming aware of it, the general public i mean, those outside of these _ public i mean, those outside of these generous schemes that are available — these generous schemes that are available to public sector workers. peopie _ available to public sector workers. people operating in the private sector— people operating in the private

sector are people operating out of the public— sector are people operating out of the public sector cannot look forward _ the public sector cannot look forward to index linked pensions. i have _ forward to index linked pensions. i have acted — forward to index linked pensions. i have acted for self—employed individuals all my life and their pensions — individuals all my life and their pensionsjust are so insignificant. what _ pensionsjust are so insignificant. what do — pensionsjust are so insignificant. what do you do? i counted. that is my essential compiaint~ _ i counted. that is my essential complaint. —— accountant. they are in a very— complaint. —— accountant. they are in a very privileged position, these public— in a very privileged position, these public sector workers, in terms of their— public sector workers, in terms of their state — public sector workers, in terms of their state pension, which is index iinked _ their state pension, which is index iinked the — their state pension, which is index linked. the inflation is very high at the _ linked. the inflation is very high at the moment and people on index iinked _ at the moment and people on index linked pensions do not suffer the consequences, because it goes up in line consequences, because it goes up in iine with _ consequences, because it goes up in iine with the — consequences, because it goes up in line with the rate of inflation. | line with the rate of inflation. i have line with the rate of inflation. have got line with the rate of inflation. i have got the very man to

line with the rate of inflation. t have got the very man to address this, paul novak, meetjohn. hello, john. the this, paul novak, meetjohn. hello, john- the picture — this, paul novak, meetjohn. hello, john. the picture you _ this, paul novak, meetjohn. hello, john. the picture you have - this, paul novak, meetjohn. hello, john. the picture you have tainted l john. the picture you have tainted of goid-piated _ john. the picture you have tainted of gold—plated pensions _ john. the picture you have tainted of gold—plated pensions and - of gold—plated pensions and priviieged _ of gold—plated pensions and privileged public— of gold—plated pensions and privileged public sector- of gold—plated pensions and i privileged public sector workers of gold—plated pensions and - privileged public sector workers is not one _ privileged public sector workers is not one we — privileged public sector workers is not one we recognised _ privileged public sector workers is not one we recognised by- privileged public sector workers is not one we recognised by the i not one we recognised by the hospital— not one we recognised by the hospital workers— not one we recognised by the hospital workers in— not one we recognised by the| hospital workers in blackpool. not one we recognised by the - hospital workers in blackpool. well, ou hospital workers in blackpool. well, you wouldn't — hospital workers in blackpool. well, you wouldn't do. — hospital workers in blackpool. well, you wouldn't do, would _ hospital workers in blackpool. well, you wouldn't do, would you? - hospital workers in blackpool. well, you wouldn't do, would you? many. hospital workers in blackpool. well, | you wouldn't do, would you? many of our ublic you wouldn't do, would you? many of our public sector _ you wouldn't do, would you? many of our public sector workers _ you wouldn't do, would you? many of our public sector workers have i our public sector workers have decent — our public sector workers have decent pension— our public sector workers have decent pension schemes - our public sector workers have decent pension schemes in i our public sector workers have i decent pension schemes in place, many, _ decent pension schemes in place, many. manym _ decent pension schemes in place, many. many---— many, many... they are overgenerous. .. - many, many... they are i overgenerous. .. gold-plated many, many... they are - overgenerous. .. gold-plated what our ke overgenerous. .. gold-plated what your key point- — overgenerous. .. gold-plated what your key point. many _ overgenerous. .. gold-plated what your key point. many private i overgenerous. .. gold-plated what | your key point. many private sector workers have _ your key point. many private sector workers have decent _ your key point. many private sector workers have decent pensions, i your key point. many private sector i workers have decent pensions, where they have _ workers have decent pensions, where they have got — workers have decent pensions, where they have got a — workers have decent pensions, where they have got a union— workers have decent pensions, where they have got a union who _ workers have decent pensions, where they have got a union who has - workers have decent pensions, where they have got a union who has gone i they have got a union who has gone in and _ they have got a union who has gone in and negotiated _ they have got a union who has gone in and negotiated a _ they have got a union who has gone in and negotiated a decent- they have got a union who has gone in and negotiated a decent pension. what _ in and negotiated a decent pension. what we _ in and negotiated a decent pension. what we have — in and negotiated a decent pension. what we have across _ in and negotiated a decent pension. what we have across the _ in and negotiated a decent pension. what we have across the private i what we have across the private sector— what we have across the private sector is — what we have across the private sector is too _ what we have across the private sector is too many— what we have across the private sector is too many employers i sector is too many employers stepping _ sector is too many employers stepping away— sector is too many employers stepping away to _ sector is too many employers stepping away to providing i sector is too many employers i stepping away to providing decent pensions — stepping away to providing decent pensions for — stepping away to providing decent pensions for their— stepping away to providing decent pensions for their staff. _ stepping away to providing decent pensions for their staff. they i stepping away to providing decentj pensions for their staff. they have chosen _ pensions for their staff. they have chosen not — pensions for their staff. they have chosen not to _ pensions for their staff. they have chosen not to pay _ pensions for their staff. they have chosen not to pay those _ pensions for their staff. they have chosen not to pay those decent i chosen not to pay those decent

pensions — chosen not to pay those decent pensions in— chosen not to pay those decent pensions. in 2011 _ chosen not to pay those decent pensions. in 20111— chosen not to pay those decent pensions. in 2011 i was - chosen not to pay those decent pensions. in 2011 i was directly| pensions. in 2011 i was directly involved — pensions. in 2011 i was directly involved in— pensions. in 2011 i was directly involved in the _ pensions. in 2011 i was directly involved in the negotiations i pensions. in 2011 i was directly i involved in the negotiations with the conservative _ involved in the negotiations with the conservative and _ involved in the negotiations with the conservative and liberal- the conservative and liberal democrat _ the conservative and liberal democrat government, i the conservative and liberal- democrat government, reforming puinc _ democrat government, reforming public sector— democrat government, reforming public sector pensions, _ democrat government, reforming public sector pensions, they i democrat government, reforming public sector pensions, they saidl democrat government, reforming i public sector pensions, they said in 2011, _ public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it— public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it would — public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it would be _ public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it would be once _ public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it would be once in _ public sector pensions, they said in 2011, it would be once in a - 2011, it would be once in a generation— 2011, it would be once in a generation changes - 2011, it would be once in a generation changes to i 2011, it would be once in a - generation changes to pensions, 2011, it would be once in a _ generation changes to pensions, they were happy— generation changes to pensions, they were happy with — generation changes to pensions, they were happy with the _ generation changes to pensions, they were happy with the changes. - generation changes to pensions, they were happy with the changes. i- were happy with the changes. i reject— were happy with the changes. i reject the — were happy with the changes. i reject the idea _ were happy with the changes. i reject the idea these _ were happy with the changes. i reject the idea these are - were happy with the changes. i. reject the idea these are somehow goid-piated — reject the idea these are somehow goid-piated tiff_ reject the idea these are somehow gold-plated— reject the idea these are somehow gold-plated. of course, you would. all talk at _ gold-plated. of course, you would. all talk at once _ all talk at once . the private sector could not ossibl . the private sector could not possibly afford _ . the private sector could not possibly afford the _ . the private sector could not possibly afford the level i . the private sector could not possibly afford the level of i . the private sector could not i possibly afford the level of pension plan contributions... all— plan contributions... all talk at once. the financial times carried out a study— the financial times carried out a study of— the financial times carried out a study of this and the cost to the government, the cost of the index iinked _ government, the cost of the index

linked pensions represents 63% of public— linked pensions represents 63% of public sector pay, that is the cost of the _ public sector pay, that is the cost of the pensions and only 8% of that is contributed by the employees themselves. 55%... let me finish this because it is very important, 55% of— this because it is very important, 55% of the — this because it is very important, 55% of the cost of those index iinked — 55% of the cost of those index linked pensions is met by taxpayers and that— linked pensions is met by taxpayers and that is— linked pensions is met by taxpayers and that is what i want people out there _ and that is what i want people out there to _ and that is what i want people out there to appreciate. this is a huge iiabiiity, _ there to appreciate. this is a huge liability, let me tell you that. gotta — liability, let me tell you that. gotta you. paul is on overtime because he has to go a 10.30. let me 'ust make because he has to go a 10.30. let me just make the — because he has to go a 10.30. let me just make the point, _ because he has to go a 10.30. let me just make the point, the _ because he has to go a 10.30. let me just make the point, the taxpayers i just make the point, the taxpayers pay for— just make the point, the taxpayers pay for public _ just make the point, the taxpayers pay for public sector— just make the point, the taxpayers pay for public sector pensions i pay for public sector pensions because — pay for public sector pensions because public— pay for public sector pensions because public sector- pay for public sector pensionsj because public sector workers pay for public sector pensions i because public sector workers are employed — because public sector workers are employed by— because public sector workers are employed by the _ because public sector workers are employed by the government, i because public sector workers are| employed by the government, the because public sector workers are i employed by the government, the nhs or anybody— employed by the government, the nhs or anybody else — employed by the government, the nhs or anybody else it _ employed by the government, the nhs or anybody else. it is _ employed by the government, the nhs or anybody else. it is right _ or anybody else. it is right employers _ or anybody else. it is right employers pay— or anybody else. it is right i employers pay contributions. corporate _ employers pay contributions. corporate britain _ employers pay contributions. corporate britain can - employers pay contributions. corporate britain can afford i employers pay contributions. i corporate britain can afford decent pensions _ corporate britain can afford decent pensions for — corporate britain can afford decent pensions for public _ corporate britain can afford decent pensions for public sector- corporate britain can afford decentj pensions for public sector workers. dividends— pensions for public sector workers. dividends have _ pensions for public sector workers. dividends have risen _ pensions for public sector workers. dividends have risen three - pensions for public sector workers.

dividends have risen three times i dividends have risen three times faster— dividends have risen three times faster than— dividends have risen three times faster than wages. _ dividends have risen three times faster than wages. £40 - dividends have risen three times faster than wages. £40 billion i dividends have risen three times i faster than wages. £40 billion worth of profits— faster than wages. £40 billion worth of profits collectively, _ faster than wages. £40 billion worth of profits collectively, no _ faster than wages. £40 billion worth of profits collectively, no one - faster than wages. £40 billion worth of profits collectively, no one can i of profits collectively, no one can tell me _ of profits collectively, no one can tell me there _ of profits collectively, no one can tell me there is— of profits collectively, no one can tell me there is a _ of profits collectively, no one can tell me there is a lack— of profits collectively, no one can tell me there is a lack of- of profits collectively, no one can tell me there is a lack of cash, i tell me there is a lack of cash, what _ tell me there is a lack of cash, what there _ tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is _ tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is is _ tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is is a _ tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is is a lack- tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is is a lack of- tell me there is a lack of cash, what there is is a lack of cashl what there is is a lack of cash sharing — what there is is a lack of cash sharing that _ what there is is a lack of cash sharing that cash _ what there is is a lack of cash sharing that cash fairly. - what there is is a lack of cash sharing that cash fairly. it i what there is is a lack of cash sharing that cash fairly. [t is. sharing that cash fairly. it is 10.35, more _ sharing that cash fairly. it is 10.35, more to _ sharing that cash fairly. it is 10.35, more to come. i and he is the news from bethan holmes. the bbc is resuming its investigation into huw edwards' conduct — after police said yesterday that claims he paid a teenager for explicit pictures did not involve criminality. he's being treated in hospital for mental health issues. thousands of patients have had their operations and appointments cancelled — asjunior doctors in england begin a five—day strike over pay. the government says the 35% pay demand by the british medicial association is 'unreasonable'. but the bma is urging the government to resume negotiations.

the number of people waiting for planned nhs treatment in england hit another record high of 7.4 million in may. the number waiting more than a year increased — but there were fewer people waiting for more than 18 months. the government is expected to announce today its decision on this year's public sector pay rises. the bbc understands — pay review bodies have recommended increases of between six, and 6.5% — more than ministers say is affordable. england captain heather knight says they can keep "ramping up the pressure" on australia after levelling the women's ashes series. knight's 75 helped them to a two—wicket victory over australia in the first one day international. it means the multi—format points based series is now level at 6—6 with two odis to play. the women's semi—finals take centre stage at wimbledon today.

first up, it's a meeting between two unseeded players, elina svitolina and marketa vondrousova. then last year's beaten finalist ons jabeur takes on second seed aryna sa balenka. in football, wales captain aaron ramsey is close to completing a return to his boyhood club cardiff city. republic of ireland international matt doherty is in talks about a return to wolves. and treble winners manchester city received more payments than any other club from fifa for releasing players for last year's world cup. overall, 46 english, two welsh and seven scottish sides received income. meanwhile, rory mcilroy has made a good start to the scottish open golf today. he'sjoint leader on 4 under par after 9 holes.

tim david the bbc director—general, its acting chairwoman, and policy director claire sumner, all bbc people, apparently, they have been called to appear before the lord's communication committee on tuesday. they will be communication committee on tuesday. they will he sat there on tuesday and being asked questions, taking a grilling. the tears will raise a range of issues, including in light of recent events and concerns raised

about the adequacy of the bbc's governance arrangements and how it is addressing these. tim davie and two colleagues before the lords committee, the lord's communications committee. also, which is relevant to our current conversation on public sector pay, the labour deputy leader, angela rayner, has declined to say whether her party will accept the recommendations from the independent pay review bodies. angela rayner has been speaking to the institute for government and she said she hadn't seen the books. but a labour government would do its best to negotiate a deal that was acceptable to public sector workers. she accused ministers of failing to get around the table. she said her party's fiscal rules were non—negotiable but she thought there was room in the middle. that from the deputy labour leader, angela rayner. maxwell marlow, director of research at the adam smith

institute, austerity, he has stayed for one question, was austerity necessary? tl for one question, was austerity necessary?— necessary? it was necessary, unfortunately. _ necessary? it was necessary, unfortunately. you _ necessary? it was necessary, unfortunately. you have i necessary? it was necessary, unfortunately. you have to i necessary? it was necessary, i unfortunately. you have to make those hard choices. the fact is, we couldn't afford to carry on the way we were going. there are lots of different opinions of how we should have cleared up after the financial crisis, should we have bailed out the banks? why are to fail? these are questions still ongoing and we are questions still ongoing and we are having those debates. but it is my opinion and the opinion of the institute, we did have to cut back. did we cut back in the right way? it is my opinion that we we didn't. i come back to the opinion i made earlier, not investing in the capital, the resources and infrastructure of the country, instead just choosing to carry on bolstering the number of people employed by the civil service and in our public sector. i think efficiency gains had to be made, but

they were made at the expense of the long—term security and viability of the public sector. it is partly why they are having these massive strikes today.— they are having these massive strikes today. thanks very much. maxwell marlow, _ strikes today. thanks very much. maxwell marlow, director - strikes today. thanks very much. maxwell marlow, director of i strikes today. thanks very much. i maxwell marlow, director of research at the adam smith institute with some fascinating thoughts this morning. allen endorser, katie in peterborough, and some are from st helens and the senior research economist at the adam smith institute. hello, katie, on yougov. good morning. t institute. hello, katie, on yougov. good morning-— institute. hello, katie, on yougov. good morning. i 'ust wanted to make a oint good morning. i 'ust wanted to make a point about— good morning. i 'ust wanted to make a point about a — good morning. ijust wanted to make a point about a gentleman _ good morning. ijust wanted to make a point about a gentleman who i good morning. ijust wanted to make a point about a gentleman who just l a point about a gentleman who just spoke about the pensions. a lot of nurses are opting out of paying pension at the moment, me being one of them, because there is a bracket

of them, because there is a bracket of 25,000 to 52,000 where you have to pay in 10% and none of us can afford it. we are opting out which means we will not be in a good situation later on, but having to opt out now because it is £200 out of our monthly pay. i know people might think it is not very sensible, but it isjust might think it is not very sensible, but it is just way having to pay for stuff now and we cannot be thinking about the future, because we haven't got enough money. the guy was like, yes it is a good pension but there is quite a few of us opting out because we cannot afford it. it is really worrying — because we cannot afford it. it is really worrying for _ because we cannot afford it. it is really worrying for many you have to do that, it is a hostage to fortune. i know, but he was so adamant about it that i had to phone in and say, a lot of us are not able to afford to pay into the pension now, because

thatis pay into the pension now, because that is because we are struggling so much. ijust wanted to make the point. much. i 'ust wanted to make the oint. . ~ much. i 'ust wanted to make the oint. ., ~' ,, much. i 'ust wanted to make the oint. ., ~' y., ., much. i 'ust wanted to make the oint. ., ~ ., ., ~ ., point. thank you for making it, are ou auoin point. thank you for making it, are you going to _ point. thank you for making it, are you going to carry _ point. thank you for making it, are you going to carry on _ point. thank you for making it, are you going to carry on not _ point. thank you for making it, are you going to carry on not paying i point. thank you for making it, are | you going to carry on not paying in? i am going to try and pay it as soon as we possibly can. you know, we obviously have to think about the future. but when you have two kids, you have to pay for now, that is it. you have got to pay mortgage and nursery fees and all that kind of stuff. so it has got to be on the back burner for a stuff. so it has got to be on the back burnerfor a bit. stuff. so it has got to be on the back burnerfor a hit. [30 stuff. so it has got to be on the back burner for a bit.— stuff. so it has got to be on the back burner for a bit. do you have a artner back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who — back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who works? _ back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who works? yes, _ back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who works? yes, he - back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who works? yes, he is - back burner for a bit. do you have a partner who works? yes, he is nhs| back burner for a bit. do you have a i partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well, in partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well. in the — partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well, in the same _ partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well, in the same bracket. _ partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well, in the same bracket. we - partner who works? yes, he is nhs as well, in the same bracket. we are - well, in the same bracket. we are lucky, we are not using food banks and stuff like that, but we have both made the choice of if we opt out of the pensions for a bit, both made the choice of if we opt out of the pensions for a hit, it means we can actually... we can pay

for the gas and all that kinda stuff, we don't have to worry too much. but we will have to pay it later. but that is the choice is the nurses are having to make right now. and he is opting out of his as well? yes, he is a nurse, too, yes. hopefully it is temporary, but i just wanted to make that point because the guy was so adamant we have the most amazing pension and i just wanted to get the point to him that it just wanted to get the point to him thatitis just wanted to get the point to him that it is good, but a lot of us are not able to afford it at the moment. maybe they could think about bringing it down slightly to kind of 3%, 5% so we wouldn't struggle so much at the moment. but that is it. ijust much at the moment. but that is it. i just wanted to say that i much at the moment. but that is it. ijust wanted to say that i support thejunior ijust wanted to say that i support the junior doctors wholly. they do an amazing job the junior doctors wholly. they do an amazingjob and the junior doctors wholly. they do an amazing job and they work so hard. after being a sister on the

ward when they first start, they work unbelievably hard, unbelievable pressure and they earn about £14 an hour. it is ridiculous. i need to get that out there, too. you hour. it is ridiculous. i need to get that out there, too. you got it out there and _ get that out there, too. you got it out there and something - get that out there, too. you got it out there and something we - get that out there, too. you got it out there and something we will l out there and something we will discuss in the near future. out there and something we will discuss in the nearfuture. i am glad you made the point, thank you for getting in touch. you glad you made the point, thank you for getting in touch.— for getting in touch. you are very welcome. _ for getting in touch. you are very welcome, thank _ for getting in touch. you are very welcome, thank you, _ for getting in touch. you are very welcome, thank you, i _ for getting in touch. you are very welcome, thank you, i love - for getting in touch. you are very welcome, thank you, i love your| welcome, thank you, i love your show. i, , r welcome, thank you, i love your show. ., , . ., ., show. that is nice of you and you can watch — show. that is nice of you and you can watch the — show. that is nice of you and you can watch the show— show. that is nice of you and you can watch the show and - show. that is nice of you and you can watch the show and bbc- show. that is nice of you and you can watch the show and bbc two | show. that is nice of you and you i can watch the show and bbc two on bbc news and you can go where ever you want with the show on five live and also bbc sounds. so you can take us where ever you want and free up your apps. us where ever you want and free up yourapps. pauline in us where ever you want and free up your apps. pauline in st helens, your apps. pauline in st helens, yourson your apps. pauline in st helens, your son is a police officer? mr; your apps. pauline in st helens, your son is a police officer? my son and his partner _ your son is a police officer? my son and his partner are _ your son is a police officer? my son and his partner are both _ your son is a police officer? my son and his partner are both police - and his partner are both police officers in gmp. the workload is ridiculous. they are fighting 6.5%

pay rise, which they are not obviously going to get. yet the mps are going to get at least 10%, what they give themselves. that are going to get at least 10%, what they give themselves.— they give themselves. that is an independent _ they give themselves. that is an independent pay _ they give themselves. that is an independent pay review- they give themselves. that is an independent pay review thing i they give themselves. that is an independent pay review thing asj independent pay review thing as well. it independent pay review thing as well. , ., ., , independent pay review thing as well. , ., . , well. it is not fair, is it? the olice well. it is not fair, is it? the police officers _ well. it is not fair, is it? the police officers work - well. it is not fair, is it? the police officers work so - well. it is not fair, is it? the police officers work so hard | well. it is not fair, is it? the i police officers work so hard and they risk their lives every single day. it is ridiculous. haifa day. it is ridiculous. how demoralising _ day. it is ridiculous. how demoralising is - day. it is ridiculous. how demoralising is this i day. it is ridiculous. how demoralising is this for l day. it is ridiculous. how- demoralising is this for him? they are struggling _ demoralising is this for him? they are struggling to _ demoralising is this for him? they are struggling to pay _ demoralising is this for him? t�*yuaz are struggling to pay their demoralising is this for him? tt31 are struggling to pay their mortgage and like the previous lady said, they are in, what do you call it? a pension and both him and his partner are thinking about coming out of the pension for the same thing because they cannot afford the mortgage and nursery fees and stuff. t has they cannot afford the mortgage and nursery fees and stuff.— nursery fees and stuff. i was struck b what nursery fees and stuff. i was struck by what katie _ nursery fees and stuff. i was struck by what katie said, _ nursery fees and stuff. i was struck by what katie said, she _ nursery fees and stuff. i was struck by what katie said, she said - nursery fees and stuff. i was struck by what katie said, she said we'rel by what katie said, she said we're not in too bad position, we don't have to go to food banks! what

thing, what a relative measure, goodness me. tn thing, what a relative measure, goodness me— thing, what a relative measure, goodness me. in st helens, food banks, goodness me. in st helens, food banks. they _ goodness me. in st helens, food banks. they are _ goodness me. in st helens, food banks, they are really _ goodness me. in st helens, food banks, they are really high. i goodness me. in st helens, food banks, they are really high. you | goodness me. in st helens, food l banks, they are really high. you go to work every day and for what? you think, for what? it is ridiculous, isn't it? , , :,~ isn't it? there is some breaking news from _ isn't it? there is some breaking news from the _ isn't it? there is some breaking news from the high _ isn't it? there is some breaking news from the high court i isn't it? there is some breaking news from the high court this l news from the high court this morning and it has ruled newquay uk laws which allow agencies to supply workers to cover striking staff are unlawful. the action was brought by more than ten unions, including aslef, unite union and kwasi kwarteng made the change when he was the business secretary. the barrister for the unions told the judge in a written statement, it is obvious that allowing employers unlimited freedom to replace striking workers with temporary agency workers with at least two weeks' notice to do so undermines the right to strike. more on five live and bbc news throughout the day. you know who may be able to

comment, the man from the iss, day. you know who may be able to comment, the man from the 155, that is an interesting judgment? t comment, the man from the 155, that is an interesting judgment?— is an interesting 'udgment? i don't have the rear — is an interestingjudgment? i don't have the real expertise _ is an interestingjudgment? i don't have the real expertise to - is an interestingjudgment? i don't have the real expertise to assess l have the real expertise to assess the judgment, have the real expertise to assess thejudgment, but it have the real expertise to assess the judgment, but it feels significant for the impact the strikes will have going on woods and depending what the government decides today, there may be further rounds of strikes across the public sector, vertically if they reject the recommendations of the pay review bodies and if it is harder to cover those striking workers, you might expect more disruption. it is clearly relevant for the disruption we are seeing. clearly relevant for the disruption we are seeing-— clearly relevant for the disruption we are seeing. very deftly handled, sor i we are seeing. very deftly handled, sorry i threw _ we are seeing. very deftly handled, sorry i threw that _ we are seeing. very deftly handled, sorry i threw that id. _ we are seeing. very deftly handled, sorry i threw that id. what - we are seeing. very deftly handled, sorry i threw that id. what about i sorry i threw that id. what about 66.5%, can we afford it?- sorry i threw that id. what about 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways — 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways we _ 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways we can _ 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways we can fund _ 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways we can fund a - 66.5%, can we afford it? there are many ways we can fund a higher. 66.5%, can we afford it? there are. many ways we can fund a higher pay award, the department are budgeting for about 3.5%. if they have to pay

for about 3.5%. if they have to pay for pay rises of 6.5%, that money has to come from somewhere. there is broadly three options, we could borrow more. the government might be looking to do that because they might be looking to add to inflation, and worry about its borrowing and debt. we could raise taxes to pay for, the government might be looking to do that coming up might be looking to do that coming up to an election year. all we could cut something else, if you are a school, may be pay for hire teachers' edges, cutback on textbooks, school trips and quality of meals, things like that. no easy options, but can we afford it depends on which of those options you think is most appealing. qt you think is most appealing. of course, meals is a good example, but people saying the kids need healthy meals, good meals and they need well cooked meals and at the same time we have the situation that they might not be able to afford to put as much money into meals. all sorts of

contradictions and paradoxes? there are. what seems _ contradictions and paradoxes? there are. what seems to _ contradictions and paradoxes? there are. what seems to be, _ contradictions and paradoxes? there are. what seems to be, from - contradictions and paradoxes? there are. what seems to be, from the i are. what seems to be, from the headlines, what seems to be likely as the government is going to largely accept these recommendations but say there is no extra money to pay for them. that is forcing public service providers to make those choices. if you are running a prison or hospital, you have to make the budgets add up somehow by cutting back on those things. they will have costs, cost reducing quality of meals, cost to employing fewer cleaners, perhaps.— meals, cost to employing fewer cleaners, perhaps. what about the ublic cleaners, perhaps. what about the public service _ cleaners, perhaps. what about the public service objectives, - cleaners, perhaps. what about the public service objectives, can i cleaners, perhaps. what about the public service objectives, can they| public service objectives, can they reach those if they keep saying they basically have to pay for this themselves? tt basically have to pay for this themselves?— basically have to pay for this themselves? ., . ~ ., themselves? it would make them more difficult to achieve. _ themselves? it would make them more difficult to achieve. one _ themselves? it would make them more difficult to achieve. one high _ difficult to achieve. one high profile example, the nhs waiting list, rishi sunak has promised he wants that falling by the end of the year. new figures this morning say the waiting lists up to 7.5 million

and it was 7.2 million when he first made the promise. if the nhs has to shrink its workforce to meet this higher pay bill or it has to cut back on some other aspect of it spending, that might make it harder to deliver on that waiting this pledge. these things are connected. the key thing is the government is making a choice. but there are no easy ones available, whatever it does, there will be some difficult implications of that and that is why it is such a contentious and tricky choice. : ,., , ~ . . it is such a contentious and tricky choice. : , ~ . . , choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is our choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? — choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? it— choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? it is _ choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? it is so _ choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? it is so long _ choice. andrew, sorry, alan, what is your point? it is so long that - your point? it is so long that you have forgotten _ your point? it is so long that you have forgotten my _ your point? it is so long that you have forgotten my name, - your point? it is so long that you have forgotten my name, it i your point? it is so long that you i have forgotten my name, it doesn't matten _ have forgotten my name, it doesn't matter. .. have forgotten my name, it doesn't matter. ., .. have forgotten my name, it doesn't matter. :, :, | matter. forgive me, forgive me! i have been — matter. forgive me, forgive me! i have been called _ matter. forgive me, forgive me! i have been called worse. - matter. forgive me, forgive me! i have been called worse. me, i matter. forgive me, forgive me! i have been called worse. me, too! | matter. forgive me, forgive me! i | have been called worse. me, too! i not in have been called worse. me, too! i got in touch _ have been called worse. me, too! i got in touch because _ have been called worse. me, too! i got in touch because of _ got in touch because of self—employed carl, about half an hour ago— self—employed carl, about half an hour ago now, he was saying you know, _ hour ago now, he was saying you know. i_ hour ago now, he was saying you know, i don't get pay rises and

blah, _ know, i don't get pay rises and blah, blah _ know, i don't get pay rises and blah, blah. idon't know, i don't get pay rises and blah, blah. i don't get pay rises blah, blah. idon't get pay rises either— blah, blah. i don't get pay rises either and _ blah, blah. i don't get pay rises either and i blah, blah. i don't get pay rises eitherand i didn't blah, blah. i don't get pay rises either and i didn't get any government help because i was excluded. it doesn't stop me being behind _ excluded. it doesn't stop me being behind the — excluded. it doesn't stop me being behind the public sector workers in their wish— behind the public sector workers in their wish to have pay increases. you look— their wish to have pay increases. you look at — their wish to have pay increases. you look at it and you say, the teachers — you look at it and you say, the teachers and nurses, these are the people _ teachers and nurses, these are the people who — teachers and nurses, these are the people who help society actually function — people who help society actually function. you know, help the economy function, _ function. you know, help the economy function, help the rest of us to get on with— function, help the rest of us to get on with doing what we have to do. if we don't _ on with doing what we have to do. if we don't pay— on with doing what we have to do. if we don't pay them properly, we are not going _ we don't pay them properly, we are not going to — we don't pay them properly, we are not going to recruit people and retain— not going to recruit people and retain people. the rest of us are, as a _ retain people. the rest of us are, as a result — retain people. the rest of us are, as a result going to suffer, because society— as a result going to suffer, because society is— as a result going to suffer, because society is going to fall apart. you know. _ society is going to fall apart. you know. this — society is going to fall apart. you know, this thing about the government not fully funding things, i do think— government not fully funding things, i do think it — government not fully funding things, i do think it ought to be reported

that this — i do think it ought to be reported that this government say they have to find _ that this government say they have to find it _ that this government say they have to find it from existing budgets, but it— to find it from existing budgets, but it should be reported that they have to _ but it should be reported that they have to cut their services and cut their— have to cut their services and cut their teaching assistants, have to cut the _ their teaching assistants, have to cut the hospital support staff and then we — cut the hospital support staff and then we get told that it has to be funded _ then we get told that it has to be funded by— then we get told that it has to be funded by taxpayers, as if public sector— funded by taxpayers, as if public sector workers are not also taxpayers. anyway, that is my little rant over~ _ taxpayers. anyway, that is my little rant over. :, , , rant over. that is fine. kerry in surre , rant over. that is fine. kerry in surrey. what — rant over. that is fine. kerry in surrey, what did _ rant over. that is fine. kerry in surrey, what did you _ rant over. that is fine. kerry in surrey, what did you think- rant over. that is fine. kerry in surrey, what did you think of. rant over. that is fine. kerry in i surrey, what did you think of that little rant, as allen put it. t little rant, as allen put it. i agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted _ agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted you. _ agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted you. i_ agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted you, i wanted _ agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted you, i wanted to - agreed with most of it. the reason i contacted you, i wanted to fact i contacted you, i wanted to fact check — contacted you, i wanted to fact check the — contacted you, i wanted to fact check the point _ contacted you, i wanted to fact check the point about - contacted you, i wanted to fact check the point about public. contacted you, i wanted to fact i check the point about public sector pension _ check the point about public sector pension i— check the point about public sector pension i am _ check the point about public sector pension tam in— check the point about public sector pension. i am in receipt _ check the point about public sector pension. i am in receipt of- check the point about public sector pension. i am in receipt of a - check the point about public sector pension. i am in receipt of a publict pension. ! am in receipt of a public sector— pension. i am in receipt of a public sector pension _ pension. i am in receipt of a public sector pension and _ pension. i am in receipt of a public sector pension and it _ pension. ! am in receipt of a public sector pension and it is— pension. i am in receipt of a public sector pension and it is capped i pension. i am in receipt of a public sector pension and it is capped at. sector pension and it is capped at 5%. sector pension and it is capped at 5%~ which— sector pension and it is capped at 5%. which means _ sector pension and it is capped at 5%. which means at _ sector pension and it is capped at 5%. which means at the - sector pension and it is capped at 5%. which means at the moment| sector pension and it is capped at. 5%. which means at the moment in real terms. — 5%. which means at the moment in realterms, it— 5%. which means at the moment in real terms, it is _ 5%. which means at the moment in real terms, it is going _ 5%. which means at the moment in real terms, it is going down. - 5%. which means at the moment in real terms, it is going down. i-

5%. which means at the moment in real terms, it is going down. ijust. real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted _ real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted to— real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted to fact _ real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted to fact check _ real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted to fact check that - real terms, it is going down. ijust wanted to fact check that the i real terms, it is going down. ijusti wanted to fact check that the people don't think— wanted to fact check that the people don't think that _ wanted to fact check that the people don't think that all _ wanted to fact check that the people don't think that all public _ wanted to fact check that the people don't think that all public sector- don't think that all public sector workers — don't think that all public sector workers get _ don't think that all public sector workers get a _ don't think that all public sector workers get a completely- don't think that all public sector- workers get a completely unlimited index _ workers get a completely unlimited index linked — workers get a completely unlimited index linked pension, _ workers get a completely unlimited index linked pension, because i workers get a completely unlimited index linked pension, because that| index linked pension, because that is not _ index linked pension, because that is not true — index linked pension, because that is not true. most _ index linked pension, because that is not true. most public— index linked pension, because that is not true. most public sector- is not true. most public sector pensions _ is not true. most public sector pensions are _ is not true. most public sector pensions are capped - is not true. most public sector pensions are capped at - is not true. most public sector pensions are capped at 5%. i i is not true. most public sector. pensions are capped at 5%. ijust wanted _ pensions are capped at 5%. ijust wanted to— pensions are capped at 5%. ijust wanted to make _ pensions are capped at 5%. ijust wanted to make that _ pensions are capped at 5%. ijust wanted to make that point - pensions are capped at 5%. ijust i wanted to make that point because i think it _ wanted to make that point because i think it is _ wanted to make that point because i think it is important. _ wanted to make that point because i think it is important. find _ wanted to make that point because i think it is important.— think it is important. and thank you for doinu think it is important. and thank you for doing that- _ think it is important. and thank you for doing that. quite _ think it is important. and thank you for doing that. quite a _ think it is important. and thank you for doing that. quite a few - think it is important. and thank you for doing that. quite a few people | for doing that. quite a few people on text saying using the gold plated pensions, we had a call saying that earlier on? , pensions, we had a call saying that earlier on?— earlier on? there is some truth to it, i earlier on? there is some truth to it. lwouldn't_ earlier on? there is some truth to it, i wouldn't use _ earlier on? there is some truth to it, i wouldn't use the _ earlier on? there is some truth to it, i wouldn't use the phrase i it, i wouldn't use the phrase myself, but it is true that on average the pensions in the public sector are considered more generous than what is generally an offer in the private sector. final salary schemes or clear average games, which are very common in the public sector, basically don't exist in the private sector any more. there is one important thing which a previous caller mention, i have forgotten her

name, but talking about the flexibility and the inability to reduce contributions, instead her and her partner have entirely opted out. thank you katie for bringing up that point. it is important because public sector pensions can lack flexibility, it is either you are in or you are out. someone like katie might be better off perhaps putting in lessons of her pension, having a slightly less generous pension when she retired, but that is better than putting in nothing. we should be having a debate about the flexibility of public sector pensions as well as their level, because that could help with retention the fat you cannot heat your home or feed your kids for the pension promise 30 years into the future, but what might make the difference for retaining people now is the headline pay. tt difference for retaining people now is the headline pay.— is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what _ is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do _ is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do i _ is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do i do _ is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do i do to - is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do i do to map i is the headline pay. it could be a matter of what do i do to map if| is the headline pay. it could be a| matter of what do i do to map if i don't make the pension contribution, it is easier to pay the mortgage, but it is choices. tt is it is easier to pay the mortgage, but it is choices.— but it is choices. it is forcing

eo - le but it is choices. it is forcing people into _ but it is choices. it is forcing people into very _ but it is choices. it is forcing people into very tricky i but it is choices. it is forcing i people into very tricky choices. another way people can adjust and to get through this difficult economic period. i might make a point to this gentleman a few seconds ago, is it alan. i gentleman a few seconds ago, is it alan. h, �* �* alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone- — alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone- but— alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone. but he _ alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone. but he was _ alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone. but he was very - alan. i called him andrew. but he has gone. but he was very clear, | has gone. but he was very clear, wasn't he? he has gone. but he was very clear, wasn't he?— wasn't he? he was right, asking departments — wasn't he? he was right, asking departments define _ wasn't he? he was right, asking departments define things - wasn't he? he was right, asking departments define things from | departments define things from within existing budgets with no extra cash, you are in effect asking them to cut other services, reduce how many people you employ or cut back on some other form of spending. he was absolutely right to describe it that way and that might be where we end up with these government announcement and we should talk about it as clearly as he did. christine, who is very near glencoe, what a stunning and overwhelmingly beautiful place in the highlands. as a campbell, i must be careful howl

tried, it was the massacre of the mcdonald's by the campbell's way back and i ask for forgiveness. what about public sector pay?— about public sector pay? hello, don't worry. — about public sector pay? hello, don't worry. i — about public sector pay? hello, don't worry, i am _ about public sector pay? hello, don't worry, i am not _ about public sector pay? hello, don't worry, i am not a - about public sector pay? hello, - don't worry, i am not a macdonald. i don't worry, i am not a macdonald. i do appreciate that the nhs, i am a nurse _ do appreciate that the nhs, i am a nurse myself, so do appreciate i nurse's — nurse myself, so do appreciate i nurse's pensions are viewed as being. — nurse's pensions are viewed as being. not_ nurse's pensions are viewed as being, not golden, but high in the scheme _ being, not golden, but high in the scheme of— being, not golden, but high in the scheme of things. however, i have been _ scheme of things. however, i have been nursing and working in the health_ been nursing and working in the health service since 1978. i am still working because it is difficult to retire because the state — difficult to retire because the state pension age was nudged up. and actually. _ state pension age was nudged up. and actually, you work for the nhs all of those — actually, you work for the nhs all of those years, i still haven't paid enough _ of those years, i still haven't paid enough into my state pension because the nhs _

enough into my state pension because the nhs opted out and so despite the fact that _ the nhs opted out and so despite the fact that i _ the nhs opted out and so despite the fact that i contributed 447 years, which _ fact that i contributed 447 years, which makes me sound like an antique. — which makes me sound like an antique, but for 47 years into my state _ antique, but for 47 years into my state pension, i still am not at the top of— state pension, i still am not at the top of that— state pension, i still am not at the top of that yet. so the job is wonderful, rewarding but it can also be extremely harrowing, it is very stressful — be extremely harrowing, it is very stressful and the gentleman who called _ stressful and the gentleman who called earlier, i have some issues with his _ called earlier, i have some issues with his comments. it is not a job that actually is easy to do and i think— that actually is easy to do and i think we — that actually is easy to do and i think we and our pension, i have to say. think we and our pension, i have to i have to think we and our pension, i have to say. think we and our pension, i have to saw a _ say a _ think we and our pension, i have to saw a friend — think we and our pension, i have to say. a friend of mine told me think we and our pension, i have to say a friend — think we and our pension, i have to say. a friend of mine told me recently. _ say. a friend of mine told me recently, he thought i was very recently. _ say. a friend of mine told me recently, he thought i was very lucky— recently, he thought i was very lucky to— recently, he thought i was very lucky— recently, he thought i was very lucky to— recently, he thought i was very lucky to have an nhs pension. i am lucky to have an nhs pension. i am afraid, _ lucky to have an nhs pension. i am afraid, i_ afraid, _ lucky to have an nhs pension. i am afraid, i_ lucky to have an nhs pension. i am afraid, i don't see it as lucky, it lucky to have an nhs pension. i am afraid, i don't see it as lucky, it is the _ afraid, idon't see it as lucky, it is the career— afraid, i don't see it as lucky, it is the career i chose, i have worked lucky to have an nhs pension. i am hard _ is the career i chose, i have worked hard all_ afraid, i don't see it as luck' worked is the career i chose, i have worked hard _ is the career i chose, i have worked hard all— is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my— is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my life and i think we have is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my— is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my life and i think we

and are pensions. find is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my life and i think we have and are pensions.— and are pensions. and as the americans — and are pensions. and as the americans want _ and are pensions. and as the hard all my life an and iink we is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my life ar- we - is the career i chose, i have worked hard all my life a_- and are pensions. and as the americans — and are pensions. and as the americans want _ and are pensions. and as the americans want to _ and are pensions. and as the americans want to say, - and are pensions. and as the - americans want to say, christine, thank you for your service. i americans want to _ and are pensions. and as the americans want to say, - and are pensions. and as the - americans want to say, christine, thank you for your service. i don't americans want to say, christine, thank you for your service.- thank you for your service. i don't mind that. _ mind that. _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that. i _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it and - thank you for your service. i don't mind that. i _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it _ thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it and - thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it and still i mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy— thank you for your service. i don't mind that, i enjoyed it and still i mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy— mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy it. — mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy it, but i think we have earned mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy it. — mind that, i enjoyed it and still enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and _ it and _ enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and thank— enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and thank you for that.— enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and thank— enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and thank you for that.— enjoy it, but i think we have earned enjoy it, but i think we have earned it and thank you for that. thank you it and thank you for that. thank you very much. — it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine _ very much. — it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine _ it and thank you for that. thank you it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine in _ very much, christine in _ it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine in glencoe - it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine in glencoe in l it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine in glencoe - it and thank you for that. thank you very much, christine in glencoe in l very much, christine in glencoe in the highlands. the massacre of very much, christine in glencoe in the highlands. the massacre of glencoe, give it a google. the glencoe, give it a google. the campbell's didn't do their campbell's didn't do their reputation much good. great reputation much good. great contribution, thank you for contribution, thank you for listening. thank you for watching, listening. thank you for watching, see you soon. live from london. this is bbc news. a heatwave sweeps across parts of southern europe and north—west africa with temperatures set to exceed 40 degrees celsius. the bbc restarts its investigation into its highest paid news presenter

huw edwards as police say there is no evidence of criminality.