the reporting and the field means i also get the witness, not just news as breaking, but also history as it's unfolding, dropping from one day i might be covering politics. i might be covering protests, but what's most important to me is understanding what they are going through so that i can convey the headlines in the most human way possible. just here to we believe everyone has a story worth hearing. donald trump is heard on tape discussing classified documents is a crucial piece of evidence in a federal investigation into his handling of sensitive documents. so how will this affects the case and the republican race for the white house? this is inside story, the

hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully back people. it's a 2 minute recording that could prove devastating for donald trump. he says that i wanted to attack in amazing and have a big problem. the media outlets in the united states have obtained an audio recording, in which the former president appears to have knowledge keeping classified documents. after leaving office, the recording was reportedly made in july of 2021 and the documents apparently referred to sensitive information about a possible attack on yvonne trump is facing 37 federal charges where he's handling of classified documents. he's pleaded not guilty. so just how damaging is this recording and when it affects next year's presidential race? we'll put these questions to our guests in just a moment. but 1st this report from my white house correspondent,

kimberly alcott in his 1st public remarks. since the release of a controversal audio recording, donald trump lashed out those, investigating him for allegedly removing classified documents from the white house . this stuff doesn't hold up. and people know it is a continuation of the greatest which aren't of all time. that's all it is. the primary purpose is election interference and would not get a lift. this election be stolen from us more relaxed and what the, what the former president made the remarks will campaigning in new hampshire on tuesday and the new audio recorded during a 2021 interview with his new jersey golf course. trump appears to show classified material to a vendor writer working on a memoir of a pentagon plan for a us attack against iran, presented to him 5, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark, milly trump, was president. milly,

let me see that i show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack or imagined they presented me. this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this is the defense department in. yeah, i guess so it's not amazing. just totally winds my cation, except it is highly secretive for the us justice department charge trump, with $37.00 counts of mishandling top secret documents. the audio seems to counter drugs, claim dozens of boxes found last year. his mara lago estate, were just newspaper clippings. prosecutor say many of those documents were instead

highly classified. the recording may also prove the government's case. the trump did not declassified the material as he should have well in office for the military given to me. i think we can probably see the treasure as i go to the legs. yeah, no, i can see the for president. trump is currently awaiting trial. he's pleaded not guilty to the charges. his trial date is set for august, but prosecutors are pushing to have that date moved to the end of the year. i. kimberly, how could it washington for inside story? well, trump's legal issues extend, well beyond this case in march, he became the 1st former president to phase criminal charges after he was indicted for falsifying business records,

it was in connection with the payoff he made to the poor and start stormy daniels. one of the biggest cases is the justice department's investigation into trump's role and encouraging a violent attack of a capital in january 2021. the case includes his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election and as the georgia investigation, which focuses on trumps reported attempt to have officials that alter the results of the states 2020 presidential vote. that's bringing on guess not for today's show in washington dc, john malcolm vice president of the institute for constitutional government that the heritage foundation is also a former us federal prosecutor in birmingham in the u. k. scott and lucas, professor at the clinton institute university college dublin, and also in washington dc. bruce find a former us associate deputy attorney general and a constitutional lawyer. gentleman, welcome to inside story. thank you very much for joining us,

bruce fine in washington. let me start with you for my present. trump has always said that the documents he took with him from the white house where declassified. but this published audio recording appears to contradict this how damning is. and is this a nail in the case against john? so i think it's an exaggeration to point to just one piece of evidence is conclusive, the burden is on prostate or prove beyond a reasonable doubt. and this certainly under cuts, the president's form or claim maybe it's still maintains that, that he could just think about the classifying a document in his head. and it became the classified by magic here, at least the tape events, authentic suggest that he knew that you would need to do certain things in a formal way to be classified doc. many had done it, at least with regard this document concerning a potential attack on iraq. so this is not helpful to mr. trump. i think it may

force him to consider testifying, which he probably doesn't want to do in the case. right to try to undermine its impact. but i wouldn't say that it's makes it a slam dunk bruce, is it clear from the indictment? if the documents that were referencing the recording are the ones we covered by the, by the investigators. well, the indictment parallel is exactly what you played in terms of putting in transcript in written form. the exchange especially, you know, it's too late to be classified. so that's there is a parallel there which woodland authenticity to the, the, the audio that we listen to. but you have a trial so that the other side can cross exam. you never take anything at face value. right? drawn malcolm, what was your 1st reaction when you heard this recording? does it tell you anything you didn't know ready? no, it doesn't tell me anything. i didn't know already because that transcript has continued

. paragraph 34 of jack smith's indictment that is pending down in florida. but just as a picture is worth a 1000 words, you know, an audio recording has more of an impact than reading a transcript on on camera. it also leaves open, i suppose. the possibility that jack smith couldn't date a former president trump or disclosing classified information to a person who didn't have the requisite clearances. and he could do that in new jersey since this exchange took place of his resort in bed minister, new jersey. i doubt he's going to do that. i think if he was going to do that, he would have done it already. and i agree with, with bruce, you know, look, these are our allegations. the former president has taken somewhat of a scatter shot approach. he said, well, i do classify these records and i had to write to keep them under the presidential records act. and each one of these pieces of evidence puts a kink in that defense. johnny sat in the tape, it's so cool that he has these classified documents,

those are his words. why did he do it? you think, was this just about showing off to? oh i have, i have no idea. i mean, there are stories out there that he was convinced by associates, that he had a right to have these documents under the presidential records act. maybe he did it because he wanted to confront people. who were you saying bad things about him, which is what he appears to be doing in the tape that you just played? there could be myriad of reasons as to why he kept them, although we shouldn't have. okay, scott lucas, your thoughts about this tape and what you heard? how dining is it for donald trump? well, library, 1st of all, with john with 1st that it doesn't change the substance of the legal case against donald trump in this environment. indeed, the existence of this audio type, not the type being played, but the existence of this type became down at the end of mac, wasn't a week before trunk was indicted. but on the political front course,

what this does is this amplifies as it were being diagnosed. it amplifies the seriousness of it. and it does cause a real problem for donald trump's public defense, which is varied from all the b. i plan to documents. i didn't know the documents were there, and then of course, that idea that he could be classified the dealer with his signature or in his mind that's kind of gone. now, what i find most interesting about this is the context of this case because this document was one of the most sensitive in cross government. it was a document about us war plans on iran. now why would donald trump release us for plans on iran to a writer, a publisher, as well as to staff who were in the rear? it is because she wanted to score a point against the current. and then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff work $1000000.00, software assurance series of grievances we really want to make really looked at. and they can look like a war monger on

a wrong and portray trump is the sensible responsible statement. who the for the war and the reason why he presented this stuff human is he thought it helped that case and as he makes clear consequences be down even if he wasn't supposed to be revealing that document to anybody is courtney said doesn't change the substance of the case trumpet said in the past that he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and no one would care. is this the case with his recording? do you think his followers, he's supporters. will care about this? well, you know, there are some people who come hell or high water have stuff with donald trump throughout his years as a candidate, as president, even to the point of when he allegedly incited the capitol attack in january 2021. and i don't think it shows the needle on those folks. i don't think it shows that need one of those folks who are probably a gas trump. but there are a lot of americans who are and one of those to chance. and i teach what this does is it sort of blows away. the initial defense of child support is,

which is there's nothing to see here, folks. let's move along. let's talk about other issues that highlights the fact that no, this is a serious issue. this isn't just a court case. this is a court case about leasing documents, and it's not just about leasing documents. it's about losing top secret documents, which for vital to american national security. bruce fine, what do you think the defense of trump could be office can can his defense team come up with anything to counter this evidence? well, it's difficult. i mean we're just talking about this one count. yeah. we're talking about in the day, but that ledges not only that, he retained the national defense information, which is the standard and the espionage act. it doesn't use the word codified information, but he's also being indicted for obstruction of justice, but less for the obstruction of justice aside for the moment. um, what can his defenses be? well, he could say he didn't have any reason to believe that could be adversely. uh,

prejudicial to the interest of the united states. and in fact, and i've written about this, my a, my view is that, and i don't know whether you take the issue is that you can make an arguable case that the espionage jack is overbroad under the 1st amendment. because you don't have to prove there was actual injury or impairment to the national security of the united states. just that there was reason to believe that it might happen is the standard of actual injury that was established in the pentagon papers case and new york times versus united states. so we could challenge the constitutionality, the, you know, jack, under the 1st amendment is never suggested. they would do that in the past. he'd kind of praise the espionage act as applied to others. but i believe that is his best defense. otherwise, you don't have to under the 5th amendment to have any defense. all just tell the prosecutors got approved beyond a reasonable doubt. you know that i had reason to believe this would be damaging to the interest the united states and i shared with people not authorized. it's not

the strongest case in the world if you're not taking your own defense. but he might do that. john, do you agree with with bruce? how do you prepare a defense when it's right there and take? well i certainly the defensive push has talked about is one he is likely to raise. he has also talked extensively about the presidential records act and his belief that he had a right to have those documents. this is an audio tape, not a video tape. i suppose. he could argue, i alluded to these documents, but didn't actually show the documents. you know, i didn't want to go to where i just disagree with bruce, not as a tactical matter. i agree with you that any time a defendant takes the stand. it is a very, very risky proposition. but this is donald trump are talking about, i think it will be extremely difficult to keep them off of the stand. he will just want to tell his story, bruce, uh, do you think he is going to take the step as well? you can try to extract blade from the track record. we know that, you know,

he did not take the stand in the civil case, but by gene a carol i guess on the sexual assault issue, we know that his attorney, a john doubt and i knew john when i was at the justice department told from you i'm never going to let you be deposed by moment, and he said or from it because you know you're going to destroy yourself. so in the past is lawyers have urged him not to testify and he hasn't done so on the other end. he has been subject to depositions before and it's really my view as his lawyers will urge him not to testify. but he may decide he's got to testify any way he thinks he can sway the jury. you can see how he performed on the cnn uh town hall interview, kind of barging through with the interrogator. but i think it's very, very risky. but at this stage you got to take risk given the substantial logs, ease confronting. all right, got lucas. let's talk about the political implications of all this. this is not the

1st case against donald trump. i mean, they are either cases the hash money payment case or january status in 6th and insurrection investigation and the republican presidential candidates. except for chris chrissy. perhaps i have lodge, the defendant, donald trump, and criticized jacks. jack smith, right, can this be the opening, perhaps for some of the republicans to change or to not this as you may dial sales, but fortunately, they're not here. so let's talk about the record today. remember, it's not just the case of trumping under and died. i mean, the fact is the truck organization was convicted in 2022 in new york state or business malpractice. there are pending cases in new york state regarding fraud and tax numbers associated with the truck. and of course there was the conviction on sexual assault between carroll and the 1990s with trumping order to pay off $500.00 . so that's what link the link link,

the legal records that he's compiled. but that side of what you've seen so far from the republican chatted. this is using ronda santos before the governor who's trying to out trunk trump. i'm just trying to take a fairly straight positions and went over the trunk of voters. so he's probably not gonna go after truck for oh, i want to be so relaxed search. why? someone like john rando santa so reluctant to go after trump? because the republicans, politicians are being held hostage by donald trump is a perception the trunk voters are still a significant part of the republican constituency. and so as they alienate trump, voters, they don't have a home in the primaries next year. it's a suckle is that there's a reason why might touch, even though donald trump was willing to let my parents be attacked on january the 6th 2021. did nothing to get him out of that predicament. during the chapel attack, why mike pence has been load to come out against trump is why other candidates have

tried to avoid comment on these legal matters picks up for, you know, a chris christy. right is coming from slightly different background in the way that his campaign talked is wrong. of, i'll just refer you to something chapter the couple of years ago, which still is striking to me. and that is out of time when donald trump had survived the 2nd engagement, the trial was not convicted. but at a time when he even mitch mcconnell, so the majority leader was like the courts must hold him to account kevin mccarthy who is currently the republican house. rico speaker right initially criticize probably capital attack. and then within 2 weeks he went to florida. if you place solutions to trump, and i think you see other candidates who think, do i stand up against trump, or do i not necessarily fell down before him? take a pass on this. they go for the latter because they say the trunk close at certain stage key states or central to their chances of advancement. john malcolm, your thoughts? why do some republican candidates want to take a pass on this and does it? what impact does it have on the republican primary and on republicans fearful that

if trump represents them, they might lose the house and senate in the next election? well, 1st of all, joe biden, this himself vulnerable. ready there are a majority of people cross political across political parties. i think he's too. busy and should not run. i agree with a lot of what scott said. the other thing that i would say is a donald trump has done a remarkably good job at persuading a broad number of people. a very, very large number of people that there is a 2 tiered system of justice that play that targets conservatives. and here's also convinced to supporters that they're not really after donald trump. they are after them and that they are using, they're trying to go get to them through donald trump and the donald trump is standing up for them as their champion. and i think that other than that, scott is, is right. everyone else is sort of waiting to see what's going to happen, see whether these other indictments make a dent,

and they want to be able to get all of those current. trump supporters to come over and vote for them if that happens right, bruce fine for our international audience. what happens if a presidential candidate is invited? well, these already been indicted. so seeing that you're seeing it, you know, as you're speaking, the 3 of us and, uh, the watching thing. what, what, what, how would it hinder the campaign? i mean, and, and you know, when it heard him in the polls, how they practical ways which it shouldn't be able to campaign, for example. well, i don't think that, you know, which is these numbers have been impacted substantially by the 2 outstanding indictments. we have now one in new york and one of them are alive. i do think that the political fall out would be great. or if he's indicted for the january 6 insurrection, and on that score, i do want to call attention to another candidate,

mike pence, basically said, distancing himself. and my view legally, substantially from from said on the morning of january 6th, from approach to him and said, you got to choose between me and the constitution. in other words, you know, are we gonna have a rule of law or rule of man? and pen said i chose the constitution and we know what from did defense and kind of let about paying to drive. and so, the reason why january 6th loom so large politically is because under section 3 of the 14th amendment, if there was a conviction under insurrection, there is a disqualification of any one in that position from ever occupying, not only the presidency, any office under the united states, i do think that would that would that would move the issue in a different direction because it's going to be very difficult for mike tends to walk back. is words which are about as incriminating as you can get it. okay, interesting. so what happens then if he's elected, let's say we're ahead for speculating here, of course, if he's elected with

a case still in progress. well, we have this very unusual feature, create a president part of himself. now i confronted that issue. they didn't have to reach fruition that the justice department present nixon was under investigation by archibald cox and then and he was fired and it was the special prosecutor leon drawers game. and there is where as well as pressing nixon gun, a part of himself, whitford prevented prosecution. there was no clear recognition whether there would be any obvious conflict of interest that would prevent that pardon, from being effective. so it's an unknown territory. and it's possible if president trump were elected, he could part themselves and move all these cases off the docket because you can issue a part and even before and a die and not only after and date. so those are the states when it comes to the rule of law, at least as a possibilities. a underscore is an unknown constitutional terrain right now on

child a territory. scott lucas trump still holds a commanding lead over. he's announced by murray opponents. could that change who or what do you see as his biggest challenge? right now? i have a lot of speculation. indeed it plays into donald trump's hands to speculate about political ramifications. because what trump is trying to do is to play the victim. and at the same time, so you can prosecute me if you pursue this. it only makes me stronger. the fact the matter is that we still have uh 8 months before the 1st republican primaries across is we still have 17 months before it is the general election. and that's a long and winding road. what i can tell you right now is that this lays out into something which is would be the case of facts of the legal process versus white noise. and the white noise which will be there on social media. it will be there on certain media outlets in the united states is to try to simply cover up the legal process to wish it a way to turn it into a deep state plot against donald trump,

to raise of other distracting issues. and that raises a broader issue, because if that white noise trial, if the legal facts of this case and of the other case, or obscured or ripped apart by deception, by misrepresentation. it says something about the challenge to american democracy. challenge which could be at its greatest point. since 1965, it's still a long time, as you say, soc scott until the republican primary not abiding team. interesting. he has been very quiet for the time being worked. will this change in your view over the next few months as a campaign heats up? how do they handle this without commenting on the legal developments without looking like they interfering in the case one way or another that you don't comment on the case because it would be interference. that's not just a political decision, that's a legal decision. this is a case which is being brought up by the justice department has been bought by

federal prosecutors, the traditional branch of the united states must for may. so that separate from the executive branch. and that must be respected by the president, whether he's named joe biden. or someone else, so i would expect no comment on the details of this case. now, for the future, no matter how much again, what was thrown out to try to force or push joe biden to making a comment, which would be appropriate. all right, john, your thoughts? how do you see all this post proceeding and progressing? it's complicated, isn't it to, to deal with classified documents in court. it is uh, is so commenting on what scott said, that's not the only reason job. i didn't want a comment on this, he is himself still under investigation by a special counsel or possession in his own right of classified documents. and there is all of these reports out there for whistle blowers and whatnot. this is son hunter biden. just got a real sweetheart deal in delaware, and that the department of justice obstructed that investigation. so president

biden enters into very, very hot water if he comments, at least at this stage on this indictment scott's also right. there's a long time between the 1st congresses and primaries and a longer time before the election. i think the president trump probably about 50 percent of his support is very, very firm. the other 50 percent are fishing around it could be persuaded to join other candidates, and i think they're just waiting to see what other shoes brought. okay. first slide, i'll give you the last word, your thoughts about joe biden, and the democrats. can they capitalize on this and how do you see this case against donald trump? progressing and proceeding as well. i certainly agree the position of mister buying should be complete silence. that's what it means to have a rule of law. rather intervals of men bosses is so important as the center piece of our democratic dispensation. they shouldn't, he shouldn't say

a single word other than that there is a presumption of innocence. mr. trump is entitled to all the rights and any other defendant would have. let's say i have this decided in a court of law and in advance we accept the verdict, no matter what it is. we don't hedge one where the and i do think this particular election and the investigations of mr. trump are truly the greatest test of our democracy. certainly since watergate, our processes are under threat. mr. trump, his question, they are legitimacy basically saying, i don't need to comply with the constitution in 2019. he said without any push back that i have article to where i have the right to do anything i want as president. i guess that takes hold in this country. the revolution of 1776 has been under. okay, gentlemen, thank you so very much for your insight. it was very interesting to hear your thoughts on this both fine, john malcolm scott. lucas, thank you very much and thank you as well for watching. you can always watch this

program again any time by visiting our website that ologist sierra. don't com for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash 8 inside story. and of course you can join the conversation on twitter handle is that a j inside story for me, for the back people in the whole team here in doha, thanks for watching bye. for now, the the july jersey thing goes to the post office, the local election, sort of shift to the right click the country with this another here with the info,

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